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roady89

join:2009-05-09
Kaufman, TX

[DSL] Embarq Modems

I have Embarq DSL. I was wondering if I can use ANY DSL modem or if I had to use the one Embarq sent me. I have a couple of modems laying around I wanted to try and see if I could get anymore speed.

Thanks.


McSummation
Mmmm, Zeebas Are Tastee.
Premium,MVM
join:2003-08-13
Fort Worth, TX
kudos:2
The modem has little to do with the speed of DSL, assuming it is running properly. The only time this is not true is if you have a marginal line, then some can hold a lower quality signal better than others.

roady89

join:2009-05-09
Kaufman, TX
said by McSummation:

The modem has little to do with the speed of DSL, assuming it is running properly. The only time this is not true is if you have a marginal line, then some can hold a lower quality signal better than others.
I think a "marginal line" is what I may have. I live in the sticks and we BARELY get DSL. What I have is the best they can give me at the moment.

So I can try a different modem correct?

I ran some tests that are here on the site. Not sure what I'm looking at but heres the results.








McSummation
Mmmm, Zeebas Are Tastee.
Premium,MVM
join:2003-08-13
Fort Worth, TX
kudos:2
1) What is the make and model of the modem you have?
2) Can you post statistics from the modem that shows SNR, allowed speed, etc.?
3) Try a speed test from »helpme.att.net/dsl/speedtest/ and pick the Dallas site. The sites you picked were all too far away to be reliable.

roady89

join:2009-05-09
Kaufman, TX
said by McSummation:

1) What is the make and model of the modem you have?
2) Can you post statistics from the modem that shows SNR, allowed speed, etc.?
3) Try a speed test from »helpme.att.net/dsl/speedtest/ and pick the Dallas site. The sites you picked were all too far away to be reliable.
1.Zyxel EQ660R

2. Not sure EXACTLY what you need to know but I can try and post anything you need. Heres some stuff I found from modem diagnostics.
Upstream Noise Margin
noise margin upstream: 1 db
output power downstream: 20 db
attenuation upstream: 31 db

Downstream Noise Margin
noise margin downstream: 24 db
output power upstream: 12 db
attenuation downstream: 49 db

3. I ran the speed test. The little arrow points to 128K. We are supposed to get 512K but I know we can because we are so far out of town.
Download = 487.29 kbps
Upload = 245.21 kbps


Doctor Olds
I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
Premium,VIP
join:2001-04-19
1970 442 W30
kudos:18
said by roady89:

2. Not sure EXACTLY what you need to know but I can try and post anything you need. Heres some stuff I found from modem diagnostics.
Upstream Noise Margin
noise margin upstream: 1 db
output power downstream: 20 db
attenuation upstream: 31 db

Downstream Noise Margin
noise margin downstream: 24 db
output power upstream: 12 db
attenuation downstream: 49 db

Your line looks like it can handle at least the 1.5 Mbps service. 3.0 Mbps would be pushing it, but 1.5 Mbps should be stable.

• For 3 Mbps DSL the Downstream Attenuation must be under 48 dB with 10 dB SNR or better.

• For 6 Mbps DSL the Downstream Attenuation must be under 38 dB with 10-12 dB SNR or better.

What is missing is your Sync Rates.

There will the WAN Stats that show Upstream and Downstream Sync Rates in Kbps, possibly in a pop up window after clicking a button for WAN Statistics.
--
What’s the point of owning a supercar if you can’t scare yourself stupid from time to time?

roady89

join:2009-05-09
Kaufman, TX
System up Time: 161:17:20
CPU Load: 0.36%

WAN Port Statistics:
Link Status: Up
Upstream Speed: 287 kbps
Downstream Speed: 571 kbps


Doctor Olds
I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
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join:2001-04-19
1970 442 W30
kudos:18
said by roady89:

System up Time: 161:17:20
CPU Load: 0.36%

WAN Port Statistics:
Link Status: Up
Upstream Speed: 287 kbps
Downstream Speed: 571 kbps

Right now you are on the 0.5 Mbps Service aka 571/287 Sync Rate that should usually show 512/256 speed test results.

I would call in and asked to be placed on the 1.5 Mbps service and see what the Downstream SNR stabilizes at. The Attenuation should remain the same as it is a measurement of the lines electrical distance.

HTH
--
What’s the point of owning a supercar if you can’t scare yourself stupid from time to time?


sashwa
Premium,Mod
join:2001-01-29
Alcatraz
kudos:17
reply to roady89
Let's get you moved over to our Embarq Forum.

Welcome to the site.


roady89

join:2009-05-09
Kaufman, TX
said by sashwa:

Let's get you moved over to our Embarq Forum.

Welcome to the site.


Ya...sorry bout that. Wasn't sure where to post this.


sashwa
Premium,Mod
join:2001-01-29
Alcatraz
kudos:17
Not a problem - not first time I've moved a post into Embarq and most likely not the last time either.


billaustin
they call me Mr. Bill
Premium,MVM
join:2001-10-13
North Las Vegas, NV
kudos:5
reply to roady89
You can use other modems. You need to make sure the VPI/VCI settings are correct. For Embarq, it is 8/35.
I use a Netgear DM111P. So far, it is working quite well.


Doctor Olds
I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
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join:2001-04-19
1970 442 W30
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said by billaustin:

You can use other modems.

I use a Netgear DM111P. So far, it is working quite well.
Yes any ADSL Modem made in the last 10 Years will work, but did you get faster speeds (either Faster Sync Rates or Faster Speed Tests) as the OP is asking about?

said by roady89:

I was wondering if I can use ANY DSL modem or if I had to use the one Embarq sent me. I have a couple of modems laying around I wanted to try and see if I could get anymore speed.

--
What’s the point of owning a supercar if you can’t scare yourself stupid from time to time?


billaustin
they call me Mr. Bill
Premium,MVM
join:2001-10-13
North Las Vegas, NV
kudos:5
Yes.


Doctor Olds
I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
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1970 442 W30
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said by billaustin:

Yes.
So you are saying that you had an increase in Sync Rates when changing DSL Modems? Did you ever document that experience?
--
What’s the point of owning a supercar if you can’t scare yourself stupid from time to time?


billaustin
they call me Mr. Bill
Premium,MVM
join:2001-10-13
North Las Vegas, NV
kudos:5
said by Doctor Olds:

said by billaustin:

Yes.
So you are saying that you had an increase in Sync Rates when changing DSL Modems? Did you ever document that experience?
Connection was quicker and more responsive with the DM111P than with the 2yr old 660 it replaced.

»Embarq DSL and Netgear DSL Modem


Doctor Olds
I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
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join:2001-04-19
1970 442 W30
kudos:18
said by billaustin:

said by Doctor Olds:

said by billaustin:

Yes.
So you are saying that you had an increase in Sync Rates when changing DSL Modems? Did you ever document that experience?
Connection was quicker and more responsive with the DM111P than with the 2yr old 660 it replaced.

»Embarq DSL and Netgear DSL Modem
Yeah, I see that you didn't check or post Sync Rates or any Speed Tests before or after. ADSL Port Rates/Sync Rates are set in the DSLAM and the ADSL Modem can only connect at the speed it is supplied by the DSLAM. I've hooked up 6 different ADSL Modems and they all Sync Up at the exact same speed each time as they are passive devices.

»Re: Embarq DSL and Netgear DSL Modem
said by billaustin:

I found a DM111P (v1) on ebay for $27. I upgraded the firmware to the latest version and put it in bridge mode. I used it to replace my two year old 660. The response and page loads seem to be a little better. I didn't do any tests to try and prove it, just my perception from daily use.

I have not had any major problems with the 660 modem or the DSL service. There have been a few minor issues, but support or a modem reboot has always been able to fix them. The connection has always been stable.
That is called the Placebo Effect. If you think it is different, you will feel it is different even when it isn't. Especially after spending money.

If you hook the Modems up one at a time, you will see that both will have the same exact Line Rate values for the DSL Statistics on the Downstream/Upstream paths.
--
What’s the point of owning a supercar if you can’t scare yourself stupid from time to time?


billaustin
they call me Mr. Bill
Premium,MVM
join:2001-10-13
North Las Vegas, NV
kudos:5
Call it what you want. Power-cycling the modem would have had the same effect. The nice thing about the Netgear is I don't have to periodically do that just to get the speed back to normal. After reading another users favorable review, I purchased a DM111P as an experiment. There were no expectations, just observations.

The maximum sync rate is set by the DSLAM. The actual sync rate is negotiated between the modem and the DSLAM. If there are issues with the modem or the line, you can see variations in speed. Some modems appear to handle those issues better than others.


Doctor Olds
I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
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join:2001-04-19
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said by billaustin:

Call it what you want. Power-cycling the modem would have had the same effect. The nice thing about the Netgear is I don't have to periodically do that just to get the speed back to normal.
Some Modems do handle built up errors better than others and some Modems reboot behind your back clearing out the accumulated errors just like a manual power cycle does. Without seeing log times and accumulated errors, a typical user would not know the difference other than they no longer had to manually power cycle once every month or two to clear out accumulated errors which would allow the Modem to ReSync at the normal rate. Sometimes other Modems will have improved error handling after a Firmware upgrade being applied as a result to handle other known issues. Also there are different chipsets in use by Modem Manufacturers which by design handle certain issues differently. However, none of those can make a Modem sync faster that another Modem which is what we are talking about. Changing Modems will not change the Port Rate/Sync Rate preset in the DSLAM so faster speeds above the Provisioned Rate are not possible on a working line with no issues which is what the OP was asking about since their DSL Stats show their line to not be a bit long, but nowhere near marginal.
said by billaustin:

After reading another users favorable review, I purchased a DM111P as an experiment. There were no expectations, just observations.
You are trying to say that you were not heavily influenced at all by other posters reviews and that you did not use those results posted by others as a before purchase influence/observation as part of the decision making process to seek out the Netgear, speed money to actually purchase the Netgear Modem? You had expectations or you would not have gone through all the steps in order to obtain the Netgear Modem. That gives you a Placebo Effect immediately.

said by billaustin:

The maximum sync rate is set by the DSLAM. The actual sync rate is negotiated between the modem and the DSLAM. If there are issues with the modem or the line, you can see variations in speed. Some modems appear to handle those issues better than others.
Correct about the Maximum Sync Rate as that is the same as the Port Rate/Provisioned Rate and Regular Sync Rate all rolled into one. After all, it is what you pay for. We are not discussing the difference you may see on marginal line as that is not a Modem issue, but a Line Quality and/or Distance issue when people have 60+ dB Attenuation Downstream and single digit SNR Downstream values. The Modem can of course negotiate a slower speed with the DSLAM when the customer is on a bad or marginal or distant telephone loop, but DSL Modems cannot negotiate a higher speed that exceeds the DSLAMs Sync Rate/Port Rate/Provisioned Rate settings, so on a normal line like the OPs with reasonable SNR and Attenuation values a dozen different DSL Modems will all Sync Up at the exact same Sync Rate that the line is delivering as provisioned. That is where it seems that you were misunderstanding and making your comments about getting faster speeds which isn't possible under the conditions the OPs line (or even my line and the 85% that never have trouble) are under.
--
What’s the point of owning a supercar if you can’t scare yourself stupid from time to time?


billaustin
they call me Mr. Bill
Premium,MVM
join:2001-10-13
North Las Vegas, NV
kudos:5
The sync rate is controlled by the DSLAM. The actual throughput, or 'speed' as many refer to is, is controlled by the modem. Just because different modems sync at the same rate, does not mean they will pass data at the same rate. The modem chipset, processor, RAM, ethernet chipset, and supported connections all factor in to this.

There was no protracted process to get the netgear modem. The actual dollar amount was minimal. The only concern was that they would actually power up when received. I got two of them for a grand total of $42 (shipping included).

The connection response and speed increase I observed when replacing the 660 modem with the netgear modem could also have been achieved by simply power cycling the 660 modem. The netgear modem was an experiment to see if the throughput could be maintained without a periodic power cycle of the modem. There are no expectations, and no placebo effect. Only observations from an experiment. There are those of us who can remain objective and simply observe and report.


Doctor Olds
I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
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join:2001-04-19
1970 442 W30
kudos:18
said by billaustin:

The sync rate is controlled by the DSLAM. The actual throughput, or 'speed' as many refer to is, is controlled by the modem. Just because different modems sync at the same rate, does not mean they will pass data at the same rate. The modem chipset, processor, RAM, ethernet chipset, and supported connections all factor in to this.
That is incorrect. The DSL Sync Rate is the raw data rate before ATM and TCP/IP overhead which after that is subtracted, remains what is seen on a typical speed test. The DSL Modem does not control either of those at all as it is a passive device.

»DSL FAQ »What is the 80% bandwidth / speed
--
What’s the point of owning a supercar if you can’t scare yourself stupid from time to time?


billaustin
they call me Mr. Bill
Premium,MVM
join:2001-10-13
North Las Vegas, NV
kudos:5
The DSL Modem is an active bridge. It transfers the packets between the DSLAM and the ethernet port. When operating as designed, it is transparent, but it can affect the throughput of the connection.


RadioDoc
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
La Grange, IL
kudos:2

1 edit
reply to Doctor Olds
said by Doctor Olds:

The DSL Modem does not control either of those at all as it is a passive device.
Control? No. Influence? Youbetcha. Many people ran into just that with older equipment when SBC introduced the 6016/608 sync profile. Some Efficient Networks units could not keep up until their firmware was upgraded and even then were not able to pass data at the full line rate. If I put my trusty 9 year old Efficient 5861 online I suffer about a 10% reduction in throughput compared with the 4200 or a three year old 2-Wire 1701HG.

Back to the subject: I have a two year old 660R which valiantly holds 5000+/640 on a disastrous 12,500 foot long line. Currently it is at 5632/640 with the following stats:

noise margin upstream: 6 db
output power downstream: 18 db
attenuation upstream: 31 db

noise margin downstream: 3 db
output power upstream: 12 db
attenuation downstream: 57 db

As you can see it is possible to get decent sync rates with far less than optimal conditions.

In the OP's case something is wrong with the line. The upstream noise margin is horrible. I'd play with things a bit and see if you can improve it as the modem is running flat-out (20 dB) and barely keeping it's head above water. Something might be loading the line on the low frequency end like an unfiltered POTS device.


Doctor Olds
I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
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join:2001-04-19
1970 442 W30
kudos:18
reply to billaustin
said by billaustin:

The DSL Modem is an active bridge. It transfers the packets between the DSLAM and the ethernet port. When operating as designed, it is transparent, but it can affect the throughput of the connection.
It doesn't work that way as a DSL Modem is a passive Bridge (neither blocking or filtering anything as it blindly passes all traffic when Bridged or when a Bridge Modem alone), only when a DSL Modem has a built-in Router does it become "active" as is any Router. A stand alone Router behind a Bridge Modem works the same way a built-in Router works inside a DSL Modem, you just have one device instead of two and if the Routing is not handled in the Router/Modem such as when it is placed into Bridge Mode, the speed isn't affected by NAT/NAPT, SPI, IP Filtering or Firewall actions since they are dormant.

DSL Modem/Bridges and Ethernet Routers work at different OSI Layers. The same applies to a built-in Router that is in the same case as a DSL Modem operating at different layers, but when it is disabled being used as only a Bridge that Router layer isn't being looked at or touched by the Bridged DSL Modem.

Regards,

Doctor Olds
--
What’s the point of owning a supercar if you can’t scare yourself stupid from time to time?


RadioDoc
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
La Grange, IL
kudos:2
Nope. Not passive. It is very much an active participant. And the throughput is very much dependent on the processing horsepower of the DSP chips inside. And it is almost impossible to find a true bridge (modem) such as the old Westell units these days since they all are IP addressable for ease of administration. Your definition no longer reflects reality. Even a "bridged" modem/router is still a router passing all traffic across the network boundary. If not you'd never be able to turn it back into a router.