X10 Appliance Module: Window A/C??? in Home Repair & Improvement http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r22387694 en Mon, 30 Nov 2009 19:36:37 EDT Mon, 30 Nov 2009 19:36:37 EDT Re: X10 Appliance Module: Window A/C??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22657929 batsona : I just read something about how sensitive the X10 modules are to noise on the AC line, and over/under-volt conditions. I have a huge post (although old) in the electronics forums that chronicals BGE trying to fix poor continuity on my neutral in my house.

When I switch on something with a high inrush current (attic fan), the leg with the fan drops its voltage to ~103VAC, and the other leg runs up to ~130VAC. With a condition like this, I don't think X10 is going to work very well.

EDIT: here's my post on my neutral problem: »Lights dim/brighten during inrush current...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22657929 Sun, 05 Jul 2009 17:44:23 EDT Re: X10 Appliance Module: Window A/C??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22654846 bkjohnson : When I Googled window AC remote T saw a 5000 BTU model with a remote for $120 at Walmart. I didn't read the particulars. It seems to have a timer function. Here's a link.
»www.walmart.com/catalog/product.···10998012
There were lots of other links.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22654846 Sat, 04 Jul 2009 18:45:29 EDT Re: X10 Appliance Module: Window A/C??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22654375 i1me2ao : do they have a small 5000 btu a/c that can run from say 12 pm till 9 pm daily?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22654375 Sat, 04 Jul 2009 16:19:59 EDT Re: X10 Appliance Module: Window A/C??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22653805 bkjohnson : Any chance that you could replace the A/C with one that comes with a remote as part of the unit? Several companies seem to make them.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22653805 Sat, 04 Jul 2009 13:17:27 EDT Re: X10 Appliance Module: Window A/C??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22646434 i1me2ao : dont loose sleep over it. they will fight just to fight. we just got back from mom and dads and they refuse to ride next to each other in van cause they had to sleep in same bed for three days.
--
calling a illegal alien undocumented is like calling a drug dealer a undocumented pharmacist]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22646434 Thu, 02 Jul 2009 17:38:44 EDT Re: X10 Appliance Module: Window A/C??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22646026 cowboyro :
said by batsona See Profile :

When I was able to run the modules years ago when I had HomeSeer installed, I remember the Appliance Modules made a loud *bang* when the relay would close the switch inside, so I'd say it's a mechanical contactor in there...
The 40W min load of this particular module is a good hint that it uses a solid state device.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22646026 Thu, 02 Jul 2009 16:21:36 EDT Re: X10 Appliance Module: Window A/C??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22645978 batsona : When I was able to run the modules years ago when I had HomeSeer installed, I remember the Appliance Modules made a loud *bang* when the relay would close the switch inside, so I'd say it's a mechanical contactor in there...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22645978 Thu, 02 Jul 2009 16:13:30 EDT Re: X10 Appliance Module: Window A/C??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22642419 Waterbug : Incandescent bulbs ??? Are they still legal ??? Aren't they a MAJOR contributor to Global Warming ? Every time someone turns on an incandescent bulb, it probably kills a Polar Bear.

Sorry, I just couldn't resist. Won't be able to get my tongue out of my cheek for a week. :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22642419 Wed, 01 Jul 2009 22:13:20 EDT Re: X10 Appliance Module: Window A/C??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22642227 royphil345 :
said by DrD See Profile :

Uphill both ways, of course!
... and high as a kite!... lol]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22642227 Wed, 01 Jul 2009 21:29:31 EDT Re: X10 Appliance Module: Window A/C??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22640769 bemis :
said by nunya See Profile :

You are correct, it's a non-issue.
Unless we're talking about X10 modules!! :-D]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22640769 Wed, 01 Jul 2009 16:33:33 EDT Re: X10 Appliance Module: Window A/C??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22640561 cowboyro :
said by bemis See Profile :

I wish I had paid more attention in school... because what you said does not seem right.

It does not take 12A to start a 100W light bulb..... does it?

My living room has 5 100W bulbs on a single switch, so does that mean it draws 60A when I flip the switch to on?

I suppose it might be believable if the current draw is nearly instantaneous and so it occurs so quickly that there is no time for the fuses/circuit breakers to blow or the wiring to heat up...
Yes, the instant start current can be very high, but it's only for a fraction of a second. It could be up to ~17A/bulb (on the peak of the sine wave) if the resistance of the filament is 10ohm when cold. But it only lasts for a very, very short time. Even if it starts with the 17*5=85A, 8ms later it will be 0...
Haven't you noticed that bulbs tend to burn when you switch them on?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22640561 Wed, 01 Jul 2009 15:53:54 EDT Re: X10 Appliance Module: Window A/C??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22640525 nunya :
I suppose it might be believable if the current draw is nearly instantaneous and so it occurs so quickly that there is no time for the fuses/circuit breakers to blow or the wiring to heat up...


You are correct, it's a non-issue.
--
Looks like Reverend Wright got his wish - God Damn America.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22640525 Wed, 01 Jul 2009 15:47:03 EDT Re: X10 Appliance Module: Window A/C??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22640357 bemis :
said by Raphion See Profile :

I just checked the resistance of a 100 Watt incandescent bulb; it's 10 ohms, and 10 ohms at 120 volts is 120/10= 12 Amps! Surprising how much of a jolt those bulbs take to start up eh? It's an extremely short spike of current before the filament gets hot, but it still needs to be considered, especially with devices that use solid state electronic switches.
I wish I had paid more attention in school... because what you said does not seem right.

It does not take 12A to start a 100W light bulb..... does it?

My living room has 5 100W bulbs on a single switch, so does that mean it draws 60A when I flip the switch to on?

I suppose it might be believable if the current draw is nearly instantaneous and so it occurs so quickly that there is no time for the fuses/circuit breakers to blow or the wiring to heat up...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22640357 Wed, 01 Jul 2009 15:15:14 EDT Re: X10 Appliance Module: Window A/C??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22639896 cowboyro : The real stress will be starting the compressor, not running it. Honestly I don't see the control device (solid state relay, triac, thyristor) lasting too long - but you may as well be lucky.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22639896 Wed, 01 Jul 2009 13:50:06 EDT Re: X10 Appliance Module: Window A/C??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22638625 batsona : UPDATE: I took the A/C unit (6000BTU Whirlpool unit from early '90s) and ran the compressor constantly for 45 min. I was pleased to see that the front of the Appliance Module got slightly warm, but then leveled off (didn't keep getting warmer and warmer..) I guess I can feel safe that the unit won't melt.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22638625 Wed, 01 Jul 2009 09:18:20 EDT Re: X10 Appliance Module: Window A/C??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22407933 Raphion :
said by TheMG See Profile :

said by nunya See Profile :

Yeah, considering an incandescent load is purely resistive (for all intents and purposes).
Actually, there might yet be some logic behind that spec.

Incandescent bulbs have a very high inrush current when first turned on, which that X10 device may not be able to handle beyond 15A of inrush current. Something like that anyways.
Bingo, incandescent bulbs have HUGE inrush current, because the resistance of the filament is proportional to it's temperature. So when it comes on, it's cold and low resistance, and draws a surge of current till it gets hot.

I just checked the resistance of a 100 Watt incandescent bulb; it's 10 ohms, and 10 ohms at 120 volts is 120/10= 12 Amps! Surprising how much of a jolt those bulbs take to start up eh? It's an extremely short spike of current before the filament gets hot, but it still needs to be considered, especially with devices that use solid state electronic switches.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22407933 Mon, 18 May 2009 19:21:06 EDT Re: X10 Appliance Module: Window A/C??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22406275 DrD : Uphill both ways, of course!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22406275 Mon, 18 May 2009 13:48:47 EDT Re: X10 Appliance Module: Window A/C??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22399414 batsona : Not to hijack my own thread, but my kids started to try to kill each other (9, 11) so we put them in seperte rooms. I'm an only child, and my mother is too -- I can't figure out why siblings fight.. Anyway.. I'll buy my $49 copy of ActiveHome with the Macros, and see if the Appliance module melts. The TStats in the A/C units routes the full current of the compressor thru it - I thought it might be a low voltage relay, then I could have controled it as a 24v relay, but no such luck.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22399414 Sat, 16 May 2009 18:16:59 EDT Re: X10 Appliance Module: Window A/C??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22399359 SparkChaser :
said by nunya See Profile :

A proper solution is to install a dedicated circuit for each window unit. For all the confabulation and speculation with X10 stuff, you could devote that time, energy, and funding to correcting the original problem.
I was thinking the kids could bunk together and alternate rooms :p

Did I tell ya, how we didn't have A/C and I walked 10 miles to school in the snow?
--
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." - Aldous Huxley

"I'm tellin' you, man, every third blink is slower" - Fillmore

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22399359 Sat, 16 May 2009 18:04:23 EDT Re: X10 Appliance Module: Window A/C??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22399321 nunya : A proper solution is to install a dedicated circuit for each window unit. For all the confabulation and speculation with X10 stuff, you could devote that time, energy, and funding to correcting the original problem.
--
Looks like Reverend Wright got his wish - God Damn America.
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22399321 Sat, 16 May 2009 17:54:49 EDT Re: X10 Appliance Module: Window A/C??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22399205 batsona : Good point about the inrush current. Inrush for a window A/C unit probably exceeds the 15A breaker on the branch ckt. Since it only lasts miliseconds, it can be tolerated. If I had a Digital Sampling Osciliscope, I'd be able to measure inrush accurately.

Refering back to the stats that SparkChaser posted; I agree; the stats are misleading. If an incandescent bulb is purely resistive, (PF=1) and the unit can handle 500W resistive, and the unit can handle a "15A resistive load", ONE of these statement is incorrect.

One of the modules reccomended was a NEMA 6-20R reciptical. While this will handle the load as far a wattage goes, I'd be breaking code to do it. I can always try the Appliance module & see how hot it gets. I'd rather not wake up to the house on fire. --Did I mention that the A/C units is in my daughters rooms? Their rooms are on the same side of the house upstairs, fed by the same 15A branch ckt. I don't like running two window A/C units on the same 15A branch. Therefore I'm using x10 units to alternate them on/off thru the nite. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22399205 Sat, 16 May 2009 17:16:19 EDT Re: X10 Appliance Module: Window A/C??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22398212 anon :
said by batsona See Profile :

Greetings...

I was going to use an X10 Appliance module to control a window A/C unit:
I would be hesitant to use X10 to control anything that couldn't stand being turned on or off unexpectedly. Having run X10 with a HAI Omni for 5 years, I've found X10 signaling to be susceptible to line noise. Sometimes (not often), I'd find a light turned on when it shouldn't be, or an OFF command not received. If the AC is mission critical (like your pet would get heat stroke if it's not on), I would find some other alternative. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22398212 Sat, 16 May 2009 12:09:56 EDT Re: X10 Appliance Module: Window A/C??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22396404 TheMG :
said by nunya See Profile :

Yeah, considering an incandescent load is purely resistive (for all intents and purposes).
Actually, there might yet be some logic behind that spec.

Incandescent bulbs have a very high inrush current when first turned on, which that X10 device may not be able to handle beyond 15A of inrush current. Something like that anyways.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22396404 Fri, 15 May 2009 21:34:55 EDT Re: X10 Appliance Module: Window A/C??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22396264 nunya : Yeah, considering an incandescent load is purely resistive (for all intents and purposes).

I don't really care for the X10 stuff, but I do have some funny stories about it.
When people move out and leave the modules in, but no controls, many of the new owners are completely oblivious to whats installed. Then, lights start dimming themselves and coming on at all hours. It's funny. I've had quite a few "haunted" houses. The X10 is susceptible to interference from other sources, so it usually doesn't take too long after the move in date for the "ghosts" to show up.
--
Looks like Reverend Wright got his wish - God Damn America.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22396264 Fri, 15 May 2009 21:04:15 EDT Re: X10 Appliance Module: Window A/C??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22396047 cdru :
said by SparkChaser See Profile :

The specs are a little suspect, to say the least :)
If you have ever dealt with anything from X10, you'd know that EVERYTHING they make is a little suspect.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22396047 Fri, 15 May 2009 20:15:35 EDT Re: X10 Appliance Module: Window A/C??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22395811 SparkChaser :
said by nunya See Profile :

Would something rated for 15A (PF=1) and 500W incandescent be OK to pull 523VA thru?


No. How can it be rated for 15A and 500W ? 15A at 500W = 33 Volts.
500W at 120v = 4.17 Amps.

If it says 500W, it means 500W. Not "a little more than 500W".
The specs are a little suspect, to say the least :)

[attachment=1]
--
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." - Aldous Huxley

"I'm tellin' you, man, every third blink is slower" - Fillmore

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22395811 Fri, 15 May 2009 19:17:58 EDT Re: X10 Appliance Module: Window A/C??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22395480 nunya :
Would something rated for 15A (PF=1) and 500W incandescent be OK to pull 523VA thru?


No. How can it be rated for 15A and 500W ? 15A at 500W = 33 Volts.
500W at 120v = 4.17 Amps.

If it says 500W, it means 500W. Not "a little more than 500W".
--
Looks like Reverend Wright got his wish - God Damn America.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22395480 Fri, 15 May 2009 17:47:01 EDT Re: X10 Appliance Module: Window A/C??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22392083 batsona : I have a more accurate reading now. I have a true-RMS meter, and wrote the VA measurement on the side of the AC. It says 523.

Would something rated for 15A (PF=1) and 500W incandescent be OK to pull 523VA thru?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22392083 Thu, 14 May 2009 23:50:22 EDT Re: X10 Appliance Module: Window A/C??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22392030 alphapointe : Here's a 20A 120V X10 outlet:
»www.smarthome.com/2243I/Leviton-···I/p.aspx]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22392030 Thu, 14 May 2009 23:39:05 EDT Re: X10 Appliance Module: Window A/C??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22392025 alphapointe : I would say in-between. Since an A/C really just has two motors in it, it is an inductive load.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22392025 Thu, 14 May 2009 23:37:26 EDT Re: X10 Appliance Module: Window A/C??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22392017 batsona : alphapointe: your link is a module I'd already looked at. Resistive load is 15A, while incandescent load is 500W. Does this tell me that something with a powerfactor of 1, can pull up to 15A of current, whereas something with a poorer power factor can pull much less? What's a window A/C unit more like, Incandescent, or resistive, or in-between?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22392017 Thu, 14 May 2009 23:35:01 EDT Re: X10 Appliance Module: Window A/C??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22388231 zach3 : Here are a couple of other products to choose from:

»www.smarthome.com/31278/EZSwitch···A/p.aspx

»www.smarthome.com/2242I/Leviton-···I/p.aspx

The larger on would be wired in line with the existing receptacle and the second one listed would be a replacement for your existing receptacle.

Zach]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22388231 Thu, 14 May 2009 11:41:55 EDT Re: X10 Appliance Module: Window A/C??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22387759 cdru :
said by batsona See Profile :

(And this violates code)
Well, there is your answer. Don't expect help here to violate code.

Another question: If this is un-workable, how can I run my more-than-500W-A/C, 120v via an X10 remote control?
Why not get this module or better yet, this outlet?

Edited: Alphapointe beat me to it, but the module he linked to only is 2-prong. Most AC units are grounded 3-prong aren't they?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22387759 Thu, 14 May 2009 10:17:44 EDT Re: X10 Appliance Module: Window A/C??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22387728 alphapointe : »www.smarthome.com/2001/X10-Appli···1/p.aspx

This one's good for 15 Amps (1800 Watts)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22387728 Thu, 14 May 2009 10:11:38 EDT X10 Appliance Module: Window A/C??? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22387694 batsona : Greetings...

I was going to use an X10 Appliance module to control a window A/C unit: »www.x10wirelesshome.com/modules/···466.html. However, the unit is only rated up to 500W @ 120v. One of the two units I need to control is more than 500W.

Do you think I can take a "Heavy Duty 220v Appliance Module" (»www.x10.com/automation/x10_hd245.htm) and use it instead? Yes it means changing the reciptical in the wall, and putting a different NEMA plug on my A/C units. (And this violates code) Question: Will the electromagnet relay in the unit work on 120v, even though it's listed as a 220v unit?

Another question: If this is un-workable, how can I run my more-than-500W-A/C, 120v via an X10 remote control?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22387694 Thu, 14 May 2009 10:04:14 EDT