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Josh766
@spcsdns.net

Josh766

Anon

Is Meraki a good choice?

Hello everyone. I'm planning to start a small WISP here in my neighborhood of 45 homes. No cable or DSL is available here, so demand is high and competition is virtually nonexistent (shouldn't be too hard to do better than HughesNet). I thought I would start with a single T1 line and 10-15 subscribers to see how things go before eventually expanding to multiple T1's and more subscribers.

One wireless equipment company that caught my eye was Meraki; their MR58 AP claims a 0.9 mile line-of-sight coverage radius. I need 0.5 mile non-line-of-sight coverage; a Meraki salesperson told me this would work fine. For future expansion, I can apparently add additional MR58's to the network up to 12 miles away using directional antennae.

Meraki's billing software looks incredibly easy to use. They do take 20% of revenue, which seems a bit high to me.

Does anyone here have experience with Meraki hardware and software. Would you recommend I go with something else? Could I use Meraki's hardware and another (cheaper) billing program?

One thing I think I do want is the ability for users with laptops to connect to my network without needing a subscriber unit; it just seems like, "check your computer; you now have broadband Internet!" would be the ultimate marketing headline.

Answers to these questions and any further advice for what I am doing would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Josh

viperm
Carpe Diem
Premium Member
join:2002-07-09
Winchester, CA

viperm

Premium Member

In a nut shell they CONTROL everything if you dont care sure it will work for a while until you start to pull lots of bandwidth or add lots of people then it will fall flat on its face.

Meraki's theory is to "MESH" everything but each hop you add cuts your bandwidth in half. I.E your head end you start out with a 3 meg connection to your first AP great 3 megs then you mesh a meraki to that radio now the 2nd meraki is down to 1.5 megs then you mesh another one then you are down to 750kbps then add another and well you get the picture.

They are toys compared to what is out there for a few dollars more. Do it right the first time and you will have less problems.

You can buy a Mikrotik system for under $600 put it with a sector antenna (or H pol omni starting out) put it on a high spot you could cover 6+ miles or more and get lots more bandwidth out of it then you ever could with a Meraki.

Keep in mind you were talking to a sales person he will tell you what you want to hear so he can sell you more widgets.

My 2 cents stay away from it or your going to run into problems.

AnonDOG
@kaballero.net

AnonDOG to Josh766

Anon

to Josh766
Meraki is a choice. We have a number of them deployed. They are like any company that was started by a university startup. They are arrogant, as they believe that CALEA does not apply to them. They are expensive, as they believe that they are doing you a favor and that since you do not want to make the net "free" they should penalize you by charging you TWICE as much as the guy that is illegally offering his DSL circuit to the public.

Essentially, they are everything that is wrong with almost every damn university in America, but especially those in Boston and California.

So yeah, I have them. I offer my bandwidth for resale, and I paid them $200.00 for the exact same device that they will give to someone offering free network access to for $100.00 because I might get a pittance from them if someone decides to pay...

Oh, did I mention the subpoena? Guess not. Yeah, several months ago I got a subpoena on someone that was using our Meraki links from an (undefined) place. Meraki was talking smack and telling us how they were not involved, until I gave the FBI agent their Email address and explained that they (Meraki) could intercept the traffic whether I paid them to do it or not... which is another thing they try to charge for ...

So... yeah, they are OK... but NO they are kinda difficult sometimes... They seem to believe that handling the money does not put them in a position to actually meet the CALEA requirements... until you hand them over to the FEDs...

Eric Ozrelic
join:2009-01-25
Bend, OR

2 edits

Eric Ozrelic to Josh766

Member

to Josh766
We like Meraki for use in resort, hotel, apartment type installations. They work very well if you don't do too many hops, and are totally turn key for billing and management. We only use the sub $200 mesh nodes, but as viperm mentioned, they provide limited throughput with more hops, due to the single radio design. I wouldn't recommend them for general WISP use.

The MR58 you mentioned is a different animal however! While I've never used it, the specifications and price point are compelling enough to investigate; and you can always spend the time to do billing yourself and *try* to save that 20%

One could use directional antennas on the (2) 5ghz mimo radios for back hauls to other MR58's, and then use the 2.4ghz mimo for PtMP in an area. Then give or sell $200 nodes to clients that are strategically located. While this *might* work for smaller deployments (think RV/trailer parks, or retirement communities), you'll quickly run into QoS and RF nightmares the larger you get.

superdog
I Need A Drink
MVM
join:2001-07-13
Lebanon, PA

superdog to Josh766

MVM

to Josh766
said by Josh766 :

Hello everyone. I'm planning to start a small WISP here in my neighborhood of 45 homes. No cable or DSL is available here, so demand is high and competition is virtually nonexistent (shouldn't be too hard to do better than HughesNet). I thought I would start with a single T1 line and 10-15 subscribers to see how things go before eventually expanding to multiple T1's and more subscribers.
This is a great situation to be in, and if what your saying is true?, then your potential should be great.
said by Josh766 :

One wireless equipment company that caught my eye was Meraki; their MR58 AP claims a 0.9 mile line-of-sight coverage radius. I need 0.5 mile non-line-of-sight coverage; a Meraki salesperson told me this would work fine. For future expansion, I can apparently add additional MR58's to the network up to 12 miles away using directional antennae.
While they can make any claim they want, real world experience is another thing. In 80% of your situations, you will NOT get .5 NLOS. Always remember to believe only 50% of anything a sales person tells you, especially in this business.
said by Josh766 :

Meraki's billing software looks incredibly easy to use. They do take 20% of revenue, which seems a bit high to me.
It is. As long as you can handle someone taking your money and you don't want the billing hassles?, go for it.
said by Josh766 :

One thing I think I do want is the ability for users with laptops to connect to my network without needing a subscriber unit; it just seems like, "check your computer; you now have broadband Internet!" would be the ultimate marketing headline.
We would all love for this type of situation, and if it were something that could be done?, one of us would have already "Been there and done that", but it's not. If all of your users were in a small circle that were less than 1500ft away from your access point with no trees, buildings etc. in the way, it would be possible. Otherwise, forget it.
EMC_guy
join:2007-10-13
Sharbot Lake, ON

EMC_guy to Josh766

Member

to Josh766
said by Josh766 :

I'm planning to start a small WISP here in my neighborhood of 45 homes
...
Meraki's billing software looks incredibly easy to use. They do take 20% of revenue, which seems a bit high to me.
...
Does anyone here have experience with Meraki hardware and software. Would you recommend I go with something else? Could I use Meraki's hardware and another (cheaper) billing program?
I surmise you are quite concerned with billing capability but remember that you could even accept post-dated checks or utilize bill payment facility of your local bank for such a small neighbourhood WISP!

Be aware that Meraki utilizes an Atheros "system-on-chip" or SoC router design which is quite standard (if you ignore their mesh controller and billing application) in the SoHo market place.

I know that SMC (Belkin) makes almost identical unit which is used/sold by a somewhat similar enity called FON. Have a look also at hotspot company Sputnik. Finally Ubiquiti, a WISP-specific radio manufacturer, makes a similar compact unit at similar price, but I forget the company that provides meshing controller for it.

P.S. All these names will also come up during searches in our forum - which should have been your first step!

Josh766
@spcsdns.net

Josh766 to Josh766

Anon

to Josh766
Thanks for the replies guys.

Here is my location on Google Maps:

»maps.google.com/maps?f=q ··· &iwloc=A

Is there anything that could cover this area NLOS? I really don't want to get into building a tower and installing units on my clients' rooftops.

Also, another thing I liked about the MR58 is its triple radios and ease of adding additional units. For future expansion into other developments, I could just find someone in the center of the community and offer him free Internet service in exchange for permission to mount an MR58 on his roof. Is there equipment that would still offer this functionality, but without the mesh problems mentioned above?
wirelessdog
join:2008-07-15
Queen Anne, MD

wirelessdog to Josh766

Member

to Josh766
900mhz Canopy on top of a 64' BX tower would probably work.
jesman
join:2008-12-28

jesman to Josh766

Member

to Josh766
Go for Canopy or Altai A8 with CPE, ubiq or others

What is the bandwidth you want to provide?
joshg409
join:2005-05-03
Ottumwa, IA

joshg409 to Josh766

Member

to Josh766
Check out wifi-cpa.com. You can lease his mesh captive portal software. We use the enterprise version for our metro project. Works great. We process all the payments no need for Meraki.

We actually use a mix of the mini-accton units and Nanostations for clients and repeaters they have been flashed with the wifi-cpa firmware.

Josh766
@spcsdns.net

Josh766 to Josh766

Anon

to Josh766
I like the looks of the Altai A8: I'll look into that further. I really would like to stick with 802.11 for now; it will probably be a while before I expand enough to outgrow that.
leightonmv
join:2004-02-10
Mill Valley, CA

leightonmv to Josh766

Member

to Josh766
We have a similar situation except having 145 homes, of which we serve 139 - Muir Beach, CA - close to San Francisco but no DSL or cable available because we are in the middle of a national park at the coast.

We also initially thought we could make the entire community a "hotspot" with our several nodes, but we soon learned that reception problems with people taking their laptops behind refrigerators etc. made that totally infeasible, and pulled down the performance of our overall LAN.

Now we have a CPE unit on each subscriber's home (a Ubiquiti Powerstation or Nanostation depending on distance to the closest node) and people can then have a wireless router inside their home for their laptops. Everyone is happy with the $39/mo we charge with no installation charge or contract. We have about 5 satellite users who will switch once their contracts expire.

We use Deliberant radios as our nodes and the Ubiquiti devices as the CPE's (and we have tried a lot of other equipment). We require a credit card for billing, and our bookkeeper does the rest with automatic monthly billing.

Figure out ways to have line of sight whenever possible - it will save you a lot of hassle once the trees are wet in the winter....

Leighton
jesman
join:2008-12-28

jesman to Josh766

Member

to Josh766
I have a contact in Altai, moto or Ubiq that you can reach the vendor directly. PM me if u want any info.

I was once approached Meraki. I was impressed by its Dash board. It is very convenient; however, the pricing and payment term scares me.
It shares your profit and you need to pay a node a flat price a month for commerical use.
The Dashboard is really a good UI. With that price, i would want something that can be done in CLI. Forget the UI, CLI is ample. Meraki is for kids and amatuer like campus, not WISP

Josh766
@spcsdns.net

Josh766 to Josh766

Anon

to Josh766
What about using this thing:

»www.gnswireless.com/GNS1424.htm

...with, say, a Deliberant AP Solo? This would be much cheaper than the Altai A8, and it claims one mile radius NLOS. I don't believe that, but if I can believe 50% of what salespeople say...

Thoughts?
EMC_guy
join:2007-10-13
Sharbot Lake, ON

EMC_guy

Member

said by Josh766 :

What about using this thing:

»www.gnswireless.com/GNS1424.htm

... claims one mile radius NLOS
Be aware that this particular GNS antenna simply utilizes a linear array of 4 "WiFi+" omni elements!!!

The single element (which I tested extensively) does appear to have moderate NLOS advantage, but I think it is due to low gain (~2dBi max) and hence wide vertical beamwidth. A classic 4x1 linear array of such elements (if constructed properly) will have higher gain but narrower vertical beam!

Therefore the already questionable NLOS advantage will actually be diminished manyfolds. Buyer beware - a 7dBi dipole alternative is considerably cheaper!

Josh766
@spcsdns.net

Josh766

Anon

Ahh, so you're saying this antenna is a total ripoff.

Okay, I get it: forget the NLOS. I'll tell you what: f I mount the antenna on my rooftop with a nice 10 ft mast, I might be able to achieve nLOS to most locations (i.e. one or two really tall trees in the way, but that's about it). In that case, would a Deliberant and some sectors work okay?
jesman
join:2008-12-28

jesman to Josh766

Member

to Josh766
A good brand is to trust

Canopy is good for LOS environment with CPE for its brand. People can get plenty of bandwidth each

Altai A8 is coming up fast in developing country (no CPE!)or some US. Park, with concurrent 100 users / AP, so it's like sharing 54Mbps

Meraki, good for its dashboard and expensive, heh

I would say it's up to your choice, i do not trust self-built stuff like those antenna. Those are toys for me.
Expand your moderator at work

viperm
Carpe Diem
Premium Member
join:2002-07-09
Winchester, CA

viperm to Josh766

Premium Member

to Josh766

Re: Is Meraki a good choice?

I am not sure if you allowed to pitch your product in this thread I think you need to pitch it in the vendor thread.

1. Your system appears to work on a PC onsite. So if you have multiple locations you need multiple PC instead of one offsite unit like wirelessorbit.com.

2. Your payment method is very strange? you dont mention anything on your site as to how the customer pays only that you pay me via paypal?

I would not want ot use a system like this.. Wirelessorbit.com is the way to go forus right now.
jakkwb
join:2009-04-27
Arkansas

jakkwb to Josh766

Member

to Josh766
at half a mile, I can get NLOS coverage with the indoor 900MHz canopy units. Not cheap, but install takes like 5 minutes.

In fact, I have had the indoor unit completely turned the opposite direction of the tower (less than 1/2 mile) and still get a decent signal.

AnonDOG
@rogers.com

AnonDOG

Anon

Is Meraki a good choice? We have about thirty of them and, no they are not a good choice.

Meraki is a company, founded by some very smart engineers from MIT who figured out exactly how to *ensure* your ROI is thirty months.

So, yeah, if you want to wait thirty months to make ROI, Meraki is a good choice, otherwise there are better solutions.

Got a damn subpoena last spring. Meraki says they want a bit sweeter deal than they had with the professional. I have been telling them for two years that they have a legal responsibility. So I just handed their E-Mail address to the FBI guy that wanted support. They did not charge me an extra dime, funny how that works. Smart, yeah, as smart as they think they are, nope. Experience counts for something.

So, in a word, no Meraki is a PITA. Their model is nice, their price points suck. Their cut of the action will ensure that your ROI is way out there.

They are, actually rosey eyed optimists who believe the network should be free and they make their money on that model. If they WERE smart, they would understand that there are other cities than San Francisco and that there is a business case for pay for play hotspots. At this time they do not understand that.

They could be making millions, maybe hundreds of millions, but their "ideals" are clouding their vision. Let us hope that one of the investors reads this.

Eric Ozrelic
join:2009-01-25
Bend, OR

1 edit

Eric Ozrelic

Member

I disagree with your assessment AnonDOG. Your ROI is dependent entirely upon what revenue strategy you use to employ and where you deploy. In our development, we deployed around 60 pro nodes at $200 a piece ($12K), plus installation and wireless backhauls (another $2000). The resort we have it installed at has a 70-90% occupancy rate year round, and we cover about 140 units. We average about $2300 a month in revenue (based on $5/day, & $15/week passes). That comes out to around $27600 per year (that's AFTER Meraki's 20% cut). We were able to completely recoup our investment in about 6 months. For what we paid for this totally turn-key solution, a 6 month ROI is incredible. We will certainly be deploying Meraki again.
Zorba01
join:2009-08-01

Zorba01 to EMC_guy

Member

to EMC_guy
I agree with EMC_guy. We are small ISP from Poland and using Ubiquiti because currently they have AP's which can be use for indoor or outdoor. Some Ubiquiti units have 1000mW power output and can serve large areas. This an ideal solution for Josh766 because he can start with 2 or max 3 devices with the cost around $300 and still have a very good coverage.

For Ubiquiti you can use SkySpot Billing Enabler software integrated with AirOS (it is free) which is working with SkySpot Controller . We use SkySpot for billing solution almost 4 years because for small operations their services are very flexible (15$ a month with unlimited number of clients or PrePaid which I do not recall now but starts lower than $15).

You can also use SkySpot billing gateway and connect different AP's. This billing gateway can manage more than 500 concurrent users. I do not know if they still have one.

AnonDOG
@kaballero.com

AnonDOG to Eric Ozrelic

Anon

to Eric Ozrelic
said by Eric Ozrelic:

I disagree with your assessment AnonDOG. Your ROI is dependent entirely upon what revenue strategy you use to employ and where you deploy. In our development, we deployed around 60 pro nodes at $200 a piece ($12K), plus installation and wireless backhauls (another $2000). The resort we have it installed at has a 70-90% occupancy rate year round, and we cover about 140 units. We average about $2300 a month in revenue (based on $5/day, & $15/week passes). That comes out to around $27600 per year (that's AFTER Meraki's 20% cut). We were able to completely recoup our investment in about 6 months. For what we paid for this totally turn-key solution, a 6 month ROI is incredible. We will certainly be deploying Meraki again.
Aye, in some situations, Meraki is perfect. Just make sure you know how much of your cut they get to do the accounting ... because that is *ALL* they do. Unless you get a subpoena, and do remember that they handle the money when you get your first subpoena, or they will tell you that they can't help.