Topic 'New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :)' in forum 'TekSavvy'

Topic 'New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :)' in forum 'TekSavvy' - dslreports.com http://www.dslreports.com/forum/New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22421119 en Thu, 09 Feb 2012 12:42:43 EDT Thu, 09 Feb 2012 12:42:43 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22476050 --
TSI Marc - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22476050 Mon, 01 Jun 2009 09:08:15 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22475688 I do know that the current technique used for Bell's PPPoE solution is to
>double-authenticate, since Bell needs to know where to forward your
>request (so you auth with Bell, and then with the wholesaler's endpoint).

Mr Guspaz,

first, congratulations on graduating and getting a job. (did I get this right?)

You only send one authentication request. Bell takes a peek at it and then forwards it to the proper ISP.

It is not clear to me if Bell send the PAP to the ISP whose router then sends a radius authentication, or whether the BAS sends a radius authentication request to the ISP and the BAS responds to the end user whether authentication worked or not.

However, the following dialogue for the PPP/LCP/IPCP is obviously between the end user and the ISP.

But there is only one cycle of authentication.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22475688 Mon, 01 Jun 2009 05:30:44 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22441377 said by derekm:

said by Guspaz:

As far as we know, Juniper's ERX hardware doesn't support MPPE to begin with.

The ERXs were not involved in the connections anywhere. We had a dedicated Cisco 7200 to terminate the PPPoE sessions, and had our own RADIUS server. Also Cisco supports mppe + pppoe (typical old-school wireless setup).
In which case, yeah, you should be able to get it working. It's possible that there's something on Bell's end that is preventing it from working, although I'm not as firm on the authentication process as DSL_Ricer is. I do know that the current technique used for Bell's PPPoE solution is to double-authenticate, since Bell needs to know where to forward your request (so you auth with Bell, and then with the wholesaler's endpoint).

AFAIK Bell normally just accepts anything and passes it off to the realm endpoint to reject/accept, although my memory is really fuzzy here. If they're simply denying the auth request outright instead of passing it on, that might explain the behaviour you're seeing, and would also seem to violate the GAS tariff (although Bell could probably find an excuse as to why it wouldn't).

said by derekm:

said by Guspaz:

So it's not really a surprised that your auth requests were rejected.

Your whole post comes off arrogant + condescending. Butt out if you have nothing of value to add.

It was very obviously neither arrogant nor condescending (nor was it intended to be), so I'll just pretend that you weren't incredibly rude in response. The street goes both ways.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22441377 Mon, 25 May 2009 16:12:06 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22440294 said by Guspaz:

As far as we know, Juniper's ERX hardware doesn't support MPPE to begin with.
The ERXs were not involved in the connections anywhere. We had a dedicated Cisco 7200 to terminate the PPPoE sessions, and had our own RADIUS server. Also Cisco supports mppe + pppoe (typical old-school wireless setup).

said by Guspaz:

So it's not really a surprised that your auth requests were rejected.

Your whole post comes off arrogant + condescending. Butt out if you have nothing of value to add.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22440294 Mon, 25 May 2009 11:38:40 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22440256 with shiny pointed hat and a mop as his weapon, to clean up the mess.

and ya where is the link or info aobut bell saying "wholesalers should not get wholesale rates"

UM go to school university and college and see whom gets whole sale rates...um people like rocky that buy wholesale...

think cosco
"um why do we have ot sell to them in bulk at wholesale rates"
answer cause if you don't no one uses you bell, and i mean you will die very quick internet death you bleeding and now ye shall bleed more with throttling and UUB?
haha good one.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22440256 Mon, 25 May 2009 11:29:19 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22440149 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22440149 Mon, 25 May 2009 10:57:57 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22440005 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22440005 Mon, 25 May 2009 10:02:44 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22434971 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22434971 Sat, 23 May 2009 22:10:15 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22434791 said by Ontarionet:

Okay, no wonder we live in the screwed up times we do. Because you're a bunch of sheep.

What if you don't agree with any candidate? You don't realize that all the parties are basically in collaboration with each other? It's all a game. I guess you are just as clueless as anyone else.

Abstaining from the bogus political process is the ONLY answer. At least, right now.

The foolish part is thinking you can make a difference. The elections are already decided. :( The CRTC has already decided!
If we do nothing ... it is no different than if we were not here at all...

Following blindlessly is bad enough...but knowing and doing nothing about it is even worse

If we do nothing...how is anything going to ever change?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22434791 Sat, 23 May 2009 21:10:11 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22434598
What if you don't agree with any candidate? You don't realize that all the parties are basically in collaboration with each other? It's all a game. I guess you are just as clueless as anyone else.

Abstaining from the bogus political process is the ONLY answer. At least, right now.

The foolish part is thinking you can make a difference. The elections are already decided. :( The CRTC has already decided! ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22434598 Sat, 23 May 2009 20:13:02 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22428512 said by mlerner:

You can circumvent the DPI boxes entirely if MPPE was used but it's not widely supported by consumer hardware.This is largely a myth. See:

»MPPE - Encrypted PPPoE as a possible solution

For more on MPPE.

Also, I should note, I had an opportunity to *ACTUALLY TEST* setting up MPPE over GAS (through a partner of TekSavvy's).

I didn't have access to the console of the Access Concentrator, but I was able to give configuration direction, and had feedback on what was being logged.

In my setup, the authentication requests for MS-CHAPv2 were rejected - and the Access Concentrator/Radius Server never saw any of these packets.

I am assuming that the RADIUS auth request first hits Bell's Radius server, (which determines the realm/authorative radius server for that realm), and then it passes it on.

I figure that Bell's RADIUS servers are not allowing MS-CHAPv2 as an authentication method, as the requests never hit our gear.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22428512 Fri, 22 May 2009 12:51:24 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22428400 said by BonkersInc:

Possible. I don't know what TSI's router receives - do they receive the PPPoE packet, or does Bell strip off the PPPoE header as it delivers it to TSI?
Hint: if Teksavvy was not receiving raw aggregated PPP traffic from Bell, Teksavvy would be unable to provide MLPPP.

So yes, TSI is receiving plain PPP from Bell so it would be theoretically possible to route stuff like NetBIOS, IPX-SPX, Appletalk or other protocols of our own through PPPoE if we wanted to, provided both ends have an appropriate network protocol driver to pack and unpack the payload.

I bet Bell would be quick to say it has to block non-standard PPP traffic because it is 'harming' its network. It would be really interesting to see the CRTC try to defend Bell when this situation would be a consequence of the CRTC's own failures to:
1) protect the public's privacy
2) make good on its duty to ensure that "telecommunication providers will not block, interfere or influence the purpose or meaning of telecommunications"

Unless the CRTC 'sees the light', the public will have little choice other than take matters in their own hands. The cold war between the people and telecommunication duopolies is warming up!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22428400 Fri, 22 May 2009 12:36:34 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22427831 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22427831 Fri, 22 May 2009 11:17:25 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22427762
They are saying, "why should wholesalers get preferential treatment at wholesale prices".

heh]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22427762 Fri, 22 May 2009 11:09:10 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22427689
Digg it!

»digg.com/tech_news/Small_ISPs_Fi···Decision]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22427689 Fri, 22 May 2009 10:59:56 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22427650 said by chronoss2009:

ALSO our buds at the CBC seem to be getting attention on it.

»www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2009···ing.htmlSeriously, does copyediting cost too much for the CBC? Giant pull quotes should DEFINITELY be edited properly! And the title is questionable too... although I'm being overly sensitive now. I'm not normally this moany about grammar, but come on!

Small ISPs fight ruling that let[s] Bell throttle internet speeds

(present, not past)

'They're being forced [in]to becoming mini Bells.'— Rocky Gaudrault, Teksavvy

(Or just use become, I don't know if Rocky said it that way, but unless it's a written or TV/radio broadcast statement, I'm sure it's customary to just fix a minor error like this)

In November 2008, the Canad[i]a[n] Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission ruled that Bell's throttling is not discriminatory, as the practice is also applied to Bell's own internet customers

I know my grammar sucks, but I'm not posting an article to the CBC's website, so you can let me off the hook. :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22427650 Fri, 22 May 2009 10:51:11 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22427595 said by bt:

The stories about this have made it onto the main page of Google News Canada in the tech section now.
Good. Just shows how little we need CTV and Global for news like this, not that they'd actually publish this kind of story.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22427595 Fri, 22 May 2009 10:43:25 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22427560 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22427560 Fri, 22 May 2009 10:38:33 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22427506 said by mlerner:

You can circumvent the DPI boxes entirely if MPPE was used but it's not widely supported by consumer hardware. The advantage there is because it's point to point encryption, there's no way the DPI boxes can decipher or inspect the TCP/UDP packets.

Something a little more up-to-date than this could be used at the customer end: »www.intel.com/Products/Desktop/A···view.htm

Not sure is there's a low-cost encrypting router (that could be flashed to run Tomato/DD-WRT), but maybe somebody like ASUS could be convinced to build an inexpensive one if Rocky decided to order 20,000 of them and made them mandatory for TSI service. It would be cheaper than buying an encrypting ethernet adapter for each machine in a multicomputer household/business.

Something like this could be used on the aggregation links by TSI. »www.thales-esecurity.com/Product···IP.shtml]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22427506 Fri, 22 May 2009 10:28:44 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22427377 said by sbrook:

Vladimir,

This was submitted in the format of a legal document. The kind of document the CRTC usually creates themselves. It follows the legal procedures necessary to get a review of decision. That's why it's not in simple English. It's why we pay lawyers ridiculous sums!

You'd think that Babelfish would have a

Translate From: English
Translate To: Legal Gobbledegook

function by now and let us cut the lawyers out of the loop.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22427377 Fri, 22 May 2009 10:10:18 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22427345 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22427345 Fri, 22 May 2009 10:04:13 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22427235 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22427235 Fri, 22 May 2009 09:48:31 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22427202 said by BonkersInc:

For this purpose, the encryption/obfuscation would only need to be between your modem and TSI's routers. Only the payload that the DPI is inspecting would need to be changed, the pppoe and tcp/ip parts could remain unaffected.
Bell does not even need to know that the PPPoE tunnel contains IP traffic. Since any encryption would need support at both ends, might as well apply it at the lowest level possible: the PPP payload.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22427202 Fri, 22 May 2009 09:44:09 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22427160 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22427160 Fri, 22 May 2009 09:37:35 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22427118
ALSO our buds at the CBC seem to be getting attention on it.

»www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2009···ing.html

go post thee too guys !!!!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22427118 Fri, 22 May 2009 09:31:31 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22427092
I guess this is what MLPPP is sort of doing right? Just obfuscating things a little bit?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22427092 Fri, 22 May 2009 09:27:11 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22427087 said by Abattoir:

said by Ontarionet:

Stop voting, for one, imho.

Never. Disengaging from the political process is never the right answer.
Totally agree. "Stop voting" is one of the most foolish forms of protest.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22427087 Fri, 22 May 2009 09:26:31 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22426745 said by TSI Jason:

said by davidbrown:

Lovely work .

Sadly totally pointless.

Fighting for the correct (moral if you will) thing is never pointless, it is just hard because the easy way out is to 'deal' with what people believe is 'inevitable' or 'impossible for them to change'. That is exactly what bigger corps/companies/groups etc like this whole situation count on when it comes to changing something the public does not agree with (pricing, UBB, Caps, etc) the passiveness of the general public body to accept things it does not agree with or understand.

The problem for them about this issue is; we're not passive, this just requires patience.

"Patience is waiting. Not passively waiting. That is laziness. But to keep going when the going is hard and slow - that is patience."
- Anonymous
Well barring getting evidence on them or a hit man this isn't a fight.

At this point no one can even get into the ring let alone fight with them.

Don't get me wrong i think you guys are great.
You listen and respond to the buyer and that's what makes a great company.

The fact here is though there was never a fight the decision was made the moment bell told them to do so.

Its the same decision that's already been made on usage billing, with the rest as just a smoke screen to make it seem they actually do there job.

Tell they are gone or they can be found breaking the law this wont be a fight.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22426745 Fri, 22 May 2009 07:35:27 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22426689 said by TSI Jason:

Fighting for the correct (moral if you will) thing is never pointless, it is just hard because the easy way out is to 'deal' with what people believe is 'inevitable' or 'impossible for them to change'. That is exactly what bigger corps/companies/groups etc like this whole situation count on when it comes to changing something the public does not agree with (pricing, UBB, Caps, etc) the passiveness of the general public body to accept things it does not agree with or understand.

The problem for them about this issue is; we're not passive, this just requires patience.

"Patience is waiting. Not passively waiting. That is laziness. But to keep going when the going is hard and slow - that is patience."
- Anonymous
+1 !
--
"No matter where you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Banzai]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22426689 Fri, 22 May 2009 06:51:21 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22426663 said by davidbrown:

Lovely work .

Sadly totally pointless.
Fighting for the correct (moral if you will) thing is never pointless, it is just hard because the easy way out is to 'deal' with what people believe is 'inevitable' or 'impossible for them to change'. That is exactly what bigger corps/companies/groups etc like this whole situation count on when it comes to changing something the public does not agree with (pricing, UBB, Caps, etc) the passiveness of the general public body to accept things it does not agree with or understand.

The problem for them about this issue is; we're not passive, this just requires patience.

"Patience is waiting. Not passively waiting. That is laziness. But to keep going when the going is hard and slow - that is patience."
- Anonymous
--
TSI Jason - TekSavvy Solutions, Inc.
Authorized TSI employee (»TekSavvy FAQ »Official support in the forum )
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22426663 Fri, 22 May 2009 06:27:21 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22426602
Sadly totally pointless.

The choice was made from the start and the rest was merely a attempt at looking like they were doing their job.

We are talking a group that destroyed records that lawyers needed to go after bell for 16 million dollars in money.
Whoops are bad don't know how that happened.

Do you really think for one moment they even considered anything but doing what bell/rogers wanted?

Its here to stay and usage billing is on its way.

Its sad when our government serves its people up on a platter instead of backing honest business men like rocky just trying to give the public what it wants.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22426602 Fri, 22 May 2009 05:34:48 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22426538
I don't really know why but as I was reading this I kept thinking of this Star Trek episode where Kirk (CIAP) forces Nomad (CRTC) to sterilize itself. I've attached a composite of sound bites I could find to sort of give those that don't want to read the 66 pages a short version of the document (assuming you've seen this episode).

nomad.wma.zip 148,886 bytes
Nomad

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22426538 Fri, 22 May 2009 03:57:04 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22426511 said by andyb:

Yea just pay a lawyer to put a number beside each paragragh and add some doublespeak then you got a crtc document or a court document depeding on where you are.
No need to doublespeak but the linguistic detours required to narrow down (or broaden, depending on circumstances) the possible interpretations of a sentence or paragraph can get intimidating and does make for some heavy/boring reading.

I like the broad CRTC directive regarding the protection of communications: "Ensure that telecommunication providers shall not block, interfere or influence the purpose or meaning of telecommunications", DPI breaks this multiple ways!

Wish the CRTC would swallow its bogus editorial test and submit Bell's throttling to a proper telecommunication test: how much impact does Bell's L7 throttling have on the GAS/AHSSPI communication occurring at L2? A detailed traffic analysis would quickly reveal that Bell is breaking the CRTC's directive in almost every conceivable way.

Ok, enough ranting... time to go sleep!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22426511 Fri, 22 May 2009 03:27:11 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22425767 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22425767 Thu, 21 May 2009 23:00:14 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22425756 said by R0CKY:

Enjoy!

It has been a longtime in the making but it is now in....

Rocky
It warms my heart even just to look forward to the day when Bell gets formally put in their place.

Bell has been a Corporate Bully for long enough.

Don't anyone get me started about some of the inept and arrogant things through which they have put me, over the years, on top of their policy of overcharging small businesses who can least of anybody afford the cost of so-called business phone lines (I have finally escaped them recently on THAT one, thankfully - details in another post)

ROCKY, your efforts are valiant and appreciated, and let us all raise our glasses in a toast, and the shared hope that they will make the desired difference !

:)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22425756 Thu, 21 May 2009 22:58:53 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22425741
This was submitted in the format of a legal document. The kind of document the CRTC usually creates themselves. It follows the legal procedures necessary to get a review of decision. That's why it's not in simple English. It's why we pay lawyers ridiculous sums!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22425741 Thu, 21 May 2009 22:55:58 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22425557 CRTC was pointed to omitting (intentional or un-intentional) important facts plus exibited significant (even to my "average Joe" knowledge) lack of knowledge of its own decisions and broader laws.
Congratulations Rocky and others who analyzed and gathered a lot of documents. It was BIG.

Regards,
Vladimir ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22425557 Thu, 21 May 2009 22:21:45 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22425469 I have clearly stated "to use simple plain English in submission". Not submit an appendix as you say. This helps to get the points.
Let us consider this closed. We all understand the plain English full of heavy facts (document has PLENTY of them) helps more than lawer type of agreement document.

P.S. I have counted roughly 15 valid points (making sense to me). And a lot of them are at the second half of the document. Not sure if psychologically it helps as human concentration grows I would say until mid of this size document. Anyway the document is full of hard facts, logical assumptions and valid references to Parliament and Supreme court.

Cannot think even non technical people to unload and disregard such evidences.

Regards. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22425469 Thu, 21 May 2009 22:03:01 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22425451 said by fiestaware:

said by vl471 :

May I make a suggestion though to use simpler English and easier to understand submission language for the sake of at least CRTC who are apparently not technical enough.

Can you imagine if the CAIP released a 'simple English' appendix to every submission? That would be the most insulting/useful/cool move imaginable.
If it was simple English, then the general public would get a better understanding of the ineptitude of those ID-10-Ts at the CRTC. :D]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22425451 Thu, 21 May 2009 21:59:15 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22425354 said by vl471 :

May I make a suggestion though to use simpler English and easier to understand submission language for the sake of at least CRTC who are apparently not technical enough.
Can you imagine if the CAIP released a 'simple English' appendix to every submission? That would be the most insulting/useful/cool move imaginable. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22425354 Thu, 21 May 2009 21:40:06 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22425229
Kudos to all involved.

-- SS]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22425229 Thu, 21 May 2009 21:19:21 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22425182 May I make a suggestion though to use simpler English and easier to understand submission language for the sake of at least CRTC who are apparently not technical enough. In my opinion it is embarassment for them to not notice reasonably valid "application header" (no matter how you look at that whether it is L4 or L7 and GAS being clearly L2). Though all of the points are valid there there is a lot of repetition and much better layout could likely include the following:

1. CRTC scope "limitation" (including no notice to CAIP). You have excellently worded out the argument though (quoted below)
2. Quotes from CRTC and Bell vice clear plain English arguments like throttling P2P clearly creates discrimination (this is clearly noted in your submission)
3. When appropriately lawer jargon/terms are appropriate. However one of some Bell advantages was their submissions were easier to read.

The CRTC decisions are though even more difficult to read and understand than CAIP's :) But this is their choice on how to word decisions out. CAIP's and our goal is to make points EASILY absorbed by CRTC.

We can speculate as much as we want whether CRTC has already made up their mind or not but the best we can do is create "happy meal" for them. Argument vice argument.
As a "side" note one of the many excellent points in Rocky's submission:
.............
91. The Commission accepted Bell’s submission that GAS traffic on Bell’s network is routed over a shared network. However, this network is shared not just by GAS and Bell Internet access traffic. It is shared by GAS, HSA, retail Internet, and other retail and
wholesale services that have nothing to do with accessing the Internet. In an IP
network, congestion is a function of all traffic on the network. Thus, it is relevant to
consider whether Bell throttles other high‐bandwidth services that it offers in the retail
market as well as to competitors. For example, as noted by CAIP, Bell is currently rolling
out IPTV services, which are very bandwidth‐intensive. It is also offering higher speed 7,
10 and 16 Mbps Internet access services, but Bell has made it clear that it will not offer a
GAS service at these speeds. There is evidence, therefore, that Bell is throttling GAS
while at the same time not throttling bandwidth for current60 and future services.
.......................

All the best.
Vladimir]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22425182 Thu, 21 May 2009 21:09:55 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22424862 said by Thislilfishy:

Of course it will take them 3 years to figure out what half of what the document means...That's (optimistically) assuming that the CRTC'll even venture to do so.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22424862 Thu, 21 May 2009 20:06:09 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22424524 said by Abattoir:

Never. Disengaging from the political process is never the right answer. +1 to that...

You may not like the hoops you have to jump through to use the political process but it sure beats totalitarianism.

If you don't think it can get worse you don't have enough imagination.
--
Working to bring you closer to a Bell and Rogers free household.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22424524 Thu, 21 May 2009 18:53:22 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22424513 said by Ontarionet:

Stop voting, for one, imho.Never. Disengaging from the political process is never the right answer. I'm pessimistic in the short term, but optimistic in the long run, but it depends on everyone remaining engaged! At that means to VOTE for the candidate that supports your views, and let everyone know why you support that candidate. I don't care if it's the Marijuana Party.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22424513 Thu, 21 May 2009 18:51:11 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22424487 said by Abattoir:

The CRTC will, naturally, take their sweet time before ultimately siding with Bell again anyway. Kudos to Rocky and the CAIP for keeping this alive, but I have absolutely no faith left in the competency of our CRTC when it comes to these matters.
Exactly.
What good is it to have this logical argument and explain why the ruling is wrong if the parties involved don't really care about the unethical and illogical decisions made?

If CRTC/Commission doesn't understand sufficient technical details, how do they justify the decision in the first place?

The CRTC and Bell are BOTH in bed with politicians. Bell was established with the help of the taxpayer. Everyone knows this. So, basically, politicians gave Bell the green light to hose customers and they have no choice since they opt to do nothing about it. There is not enough outrage or complaining. Stop voting, for one, imho. Speak out about that (i.e. Bell's control) and not just the network congestion angle. Bell can just explain themselves again with technical jargon that CRTC still doesn't understand and then Bell will get another ruling in their favor. Therefore, still no progress. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22424487 Thu, 21 May 2009 18:44:27 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22424424
»technology.sympatico.msn.cbc.ca/···rottling

:D
--
"No matter where you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Banzai]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22424424 Thu, 21 May 2009 18:29:39 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22423410
Good job on highlighting the points that really matter.

Also, good job actively giving Bell's lawyers, lobbyists, and PR machine something to respond to, instead of letting them take the driver's seat.

Thank you!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22423410 Thu, 21 May 2009 15:19:53 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22423299 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22423299 Thu, 21 May 2009 15:00:32 EDT Re: New CRTC filing fresh off the press! :) http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22423292 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-New-CRTC-filing-fresh-off-the-press-22423292 Thu, 21 May 2009 14:59:35 EDT