AT&T Still Can't Force Arbitration Via Fine Print → Re: No responsibility

Sure you do. Don't sign the contract. Contracts only can be changed because you allow them to when you sign the original one. If you don't agree to the terms, don't sign the contract. There are other wireless companies out there, or prepaid, or go without.

I think it's great for the latest trend to not even have the user sign the full contract. When you sign up for wireless service from Verizon, AT&T and T-Mobile now, you say that you agree to the terms of the contract. Most places don't have it on site, but rather they will mail it to you with your first bill. They claim that since you have a 30 day out of the contact, this is legal, but what they forget to tell you is that you may not get your bill until the 25th day, really only giving you 5 days to get out of it, if the terms are not what you expect.

Just another way to screw the consumer.

Well I'd love to call my cellphone service provider and try to haggle with them over ridiculous terms in their contracts, but that's just not gonna fly with them. All the companies have anti-consumer wording in their contracts, and all that's left for us to do is find the least worst, and sign with my eyes closed.

Some of these same companies also have contracts stating that they can change the terms of their contracts whenever they decide to. Signing a contract initially doesn't mean you won't be bound to additional terms later whether you want it or not. Then, if they so choose, they could hit you with ETFs for cancelling because you don't agree to the new contract terms. Not saying they will but there's not much to stop them from doing that--particularly if their contract says they can.

If the contract were binding and unchangeable until the end of the contract, that's one thing. The ability to change it mid-cycle is of no benefit to the consumer, only the company. It would be pretty sweet if I decided I suddenly didn't like something in my cellular contract and notified them that I was changing the terms. I don't see that happening.

Do you understand the concept of an adhesion contract? These are take ir or leave it contracts that consumers have to sign in order to get a service.

Do you then understand the term "unconscionable"? An adhesion contract that is unfair to the weaker party (the consumer) is unconscionable.

What this all means is that with some services, such as credit cards or cellphone access, there is no recourse for the consumer. If they want a credit card, they have to sign these unconscionable contracts. If they want any cellphone, they have to sign these contracts.

What has happened is that companies have been embedding mandatory arbitration clauses into their service contracts for the last decade, naming arbitration companies that are dependent on repeat business from these companies, and who rule in favor of the companies, and obscene amount of times. Then when a party tries to sue a company because of some abusive business practice, the company's lawyers step in and say, "No, you gave up the right to have your case heard in a court of law". More importantly, you gave up your right to participate in a class action lawsuit against the company.

Now, if you think this is fair, and that a "contract is a contract", great. I'm sure the companies will just love you.

Many of us, though, prefer a level playing ground.

I can't speak to other carriers, but with T-Mobile when the contract changes, they are required to notify me, the consumer and allow me to opt out without out penalty. That's been the case when they raise SMS fees, when they raised directory assistance fees, etc. There is a period, usually 14 days or so, to opt out otherwise your continued use indicates your acceptance.

I won't argue that changing the original contract doesn't happen, or that it's rarely in the consumers favor. But I do argue, in my experience, that they aren't changing the contract without giving you the option to just walk away if you don't accept the new terms.

Yes, I understand the concept of an adhesion contract. An adhesion contracts aren't necessarily invalid. Most consumer credit, insurance, rental contracts, etc are in some form an adhesion contract. It's take it or leave it, if you don't like the terms, go elsewhere.No they aren't necessarily. They only become unconscionable when they are grossly one sided, or are the result of fraud or misrepresentation.Yes there are terms that have been found unconscionable, but there are just as many that are perfectly valid. Unconscionable or not, people are still signing them when they have other options. Most cellular providers offer prepaid or contract-less accounts. There are thousands of banks offering credit cards, or there is also the option of Visa/MC check cards or gift cards if you don't really need the credit portion of the card. You have choices. The choices may not be to your liking, or your terms may not be as favorable, but you have choices.And the courts have also ruled in the past that mandatory arbitration may be illegal. Just because some legalese says it's so doesn't make it so, as AT&T is finding out.No, I don't think it's fair, but I also don't sign contracts that I think aren't fair. It doesn't excuse the companies from putting the unconscionable clauses, but it doesn't excuse the consumer from reading and understanding what they are signing either. I will guarantee you an overwhelming majority of the people that would be party to the class action lawsuit never even read their contract that they were signing.

Easy to say that now but what happens when all the companies change contracts? The big 3 automakers were amending their sales contracts calling for mandatory arbitration. The Japanese makers started doing the same thing.

Look at the credit card companies. You sign up for one rate and they change the contract. Cancel the card and there goes your credit rating.

Look at Verizon when they raised the rates for text messaging and when people tried to cancel their contracts, Verizon said no until they were forced to. The people signed up for $0.10/per text message and before their contract was over, they raised rates.

Even the TOS of many video and internet providers are so one sided that they double your rates just because they can change the contract at any time.

Sorry, but those provisions are the reasons we have so many lawsuits over contracts as it is.

Contracts have been changing for years. It's nothing new. The world won't come to and end. Plus, all companies aren't changing contracts.Citation please to where they were changing existing financing agreements.No, the agreement you signed almost definitely had a clause or two that stated the interest rate could change and that it wasn't fixed forever.Canceling a single card impact on your credit rating is minimal. If you are always opening and closing accounts, have too much credit, are maxed out, or have repeated denied credit applications, those things are going to hurt your credit much more.Read your customer agreement and stick to your guns when trying to get out of an contract if they raise rates. From that agreement (emphasis added):

quote:

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Our Rights to Make Changes

Your service is subject to our business policies, practices and procedures, which we can change without notice. UNLESS OTHERWISE PROHIBITED BY LAW, WE CAN ALSO CHANGE PRICES AND ANY OTHER CONDITIONS IN THIS AGREEMENT AT ANY TIME BY SENDING YOU WRITTEN NOTICE PRIOR TO THE BILLING PERIOD IN WHICH THE CHANGES WOULD GO INTO EFFECT. IF YOU CHOOSE TO USE YOUR SERVICE AFTER THAT POINT, YOU'RE ACCEPTING THE CHANGES. IF THE CHANGES HAVE A MATERIAL ADVERSE EFFECT ON YOU, HOWEVER, YOU CAN END THE AFFECTED SERVICE, WITHOUT ANY EARLY TERMINATION FEE, JUST BY CALLING US WITHIN 60 DAYS AFTER WE SEND NOTICE OF THE CHANGE.

---

Citation please of a single instance where a provider doubled rates of a contracted customer.

And if said consumer needs a POTS line and someone like AT&T is the only POTS carrier in their area, what do you propose? VOIP is not a direct alternative to POTS. They are very similar but they are not identical in functionality to POTS. Sometimes there are no other options if a consumer requires a particular type of service. The take it or leave it option doesn't always work. Would you feel the same way if your power company added clauses to their service agreement that you found unacceptable? Would you then disconnect your home electrical service? My guess is, you'd file a complaint with your PSC.

or pre-paid. Least then if you don't like the service, you can just stop paying. No harm, no foul!

Companies have the right to offer contracts as they see fit. There also exists the right for people to complain and participate in class actions suits. If the companies don't like their customers' complaints and legal actions, they can - subject to contract terms with the customers - drop them and go get new ones.

Companies have the right to lobby congress for favorable treatment and customers have the same rights. Historically, when one or the other tilt the playing field sufficiently, then the pendulum starts swinging the other way to tilt it back. We're starting to see that happen now.

No, but many are putting in clauses that say they can change the contract for whatever reason they feel like it.Not existing agreements but if you wanted a new car, they were inserting that language in the deep fine print.The agreements I signed were as long as I paid THEIR bills on time, they wouldn't raise my rates. If they saw something else on my credit report, then they couldn't raise my rates. Now, they changed it to whenever they find anything they do not like.Wrong. If you close one of your long standing accounts, even if it had a zero balance, your credit score will drop. I have 3 active credit cards and about 7 more that are free and clear. I had a WaMu card cancelled because WaMu went belly up and my credit score went down. That card had a $17,000 credit limit.And go back and research here on this site how many people tried to get out of their contracts and Verizon said no because they didn't think they were violating the contract. many were being upsold into a messaging package they did not want.I should be more clear. They CAN double your rates even if you are under contract. There have been many articles here where the TOS is so vague that anyone could argue you weren't even allowed to use your internet connection.

Shelley:

Stick around. Join up. Perhaps Karl can put you to work.

I like the cut of your jib.

Thanks, TScheisskopf.