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jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Ashburn, VA

Re: Current customers

said by Rickez:

Why can't these companies strive with current subscriptions to service?
Any publicly traded company has to grow, or promise to grow, in order to gain investment dollars to support their business.

kapil
The Kapil

join:2000-04-26
Chicago, IL

Re: Current customers

said by jmn1207:

Any publicly traded company has to grow, or promise to grow, in order to gain investment dollars to support their business.
Aah. The fundamental flaw in capitalism that we seem to gloss over all too often as we're busy blaming all the ills of this world on communism.

What goes up must come down, as they say...companies can't grow forever. Expecting them to do that is unrealistic....and it's those unrealistic expectations that have landed us in our current economic turmoil.
--
»www.Digium.com

capitalist

@charter.com

Re: Current customers

Free-market capitalism has nothing to do with our current economic situation. Crony-capitalism, mercantilism, and socialism are to blame.

kapil
The Kapil

join:2000-04-26
Chicago, IL

Re: Current customers

said by capitalist :

Free-market capitalism has nothing to do with our current economic situation.
No?

Management of a company has a fiduciary responsibility to guarantee profits and appreciating stock prices....at the peril of everything else....employees, society, nation. A CEO can actually get in trouble if puts the environment, or employee well being above company profits.

The fundamental principal of capitalism is profit for investors. And investors seek growth. It's a catch 22....and one that's been killing this country.

The whole system is broken. The wretched investors who "demand profit" are pension funds and insurance companies...who need those profits to fund insurance payouts, retiree benefits and what not. So it's hard to place all the blame on them.

The management is doing what it was hired to do...turn a profit.

Employees just want a paycheck to pay off their 60" LCD TV.

...and consumers want to buy that damn 60" TV, even if they can't afford it.

The whole damn system has been rotting from the inside out for decades.
--
»www.Digium.com
Kearnstd
Elf Wizard
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ

Re: Current customers

said by kapil:

said by capitalist :

Free-market capitalism has nothing to do with our current economic situation.
No?

Management of a company has a fiduciary responsibility to guarantee profits and appreciating stock prices....at the peril of everything else....employees, society, nation. A CEO can actually get in trouble if puts the environment, or employee well being above company profits.

The fundamental principal of capitalism is profit for investors. And investors seek growth. It's a catch 22....and one that's been killing this country.

The whole system is broken. The wretched investors who "demand profit" are pension funds and insurance companies...who need those profits to fund insurance payouts, retiree benefits and what not. So it's hard to place all the blame on them.

The management is doing what it was hired to do...turn a profit.

Employees just want a paycheck to pay off their 60" LCD TV.

...and consumers want to buy that damn 60" TV, even if they can't afford it.

The whole damn system has been rotting from the inside out for decades.
which is why VZN investors where hating FIOS, it was all cost and no instant money even if its long term is lower operating costs and higher profit per sub.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports

Fountainhead
Premium
join:2003-10-25
New York, NY
kudos:1

Re: Current customers

Im switching Comcast to Fios next week.

Better product, more services, cheaper rate.

No brainer.
--
It's all part of my rock and roll fantasy

sturmvogel
Obama '08

join:2008-02-07
Houston, TX

Re: Current customers

said by Fountainhead:

Im switching Comcast to Fios next week.

Better product, more services, cheaper rate.

No brainer.
I envy you. Good luck and enjoy your non comcastic product that delivers what you pay for.
--
Obama '08. Will help resolve the terrible broadband issues we have that put us so far behind other countries.
NormanS
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:4
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
said by kapil:

The whole damn system has been rotting from the inside out for decades.
More like millennia ... all the way back to the Mesopotamian God-Kings.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
jayjay5

join:2008-06-09
said by kapil:

said by capitalist :

Free-market capitalism has nothing to do with our current economic situation.
No?

Management of a company has a fiduciary responsibility to guarantee profits and appreciating stock prices....at the peril of everything else....employees, society, nation. A CEO can actually get in trouble if puts the environment, or employee well being above company profits.

The fundamental principal of capitalism is profit for investors. And investors seek growth. It's a catch 22....and one that's been killing this country.

The whole system is broken. The wretched investors who "demand profit" are pension funds and insurance companies...who need those profits to fund insurance payouts, retiree benefits and what not. So it's hard to place all the blame on them.

The management is doing what it was hired to do...turn a profit.

Employees just want a paycheck to pay off their 60" LCD TV.

...and consumers want to buy that damn 60" TV, even if they can't afford it.

The whole damn system has been rotting from the inside out for decades.
It's not capitalism, but corporatism. Cable companies are in a partnership with the local governments to provide cable services so that by definition is corporatism.

Also, the stock markets are not capitalism. There are many reasons why, including the fact that our currency does not represent capital. Our dollar represents debt and is centrally controlled and regulated through the 'federal reserve.' The very fact that our government is bailing out banks on the order of trillions of dollars speaks loudly that our government is in a partnership with them.

One day I hope people will understand that just because money and greed are factors doesn't automatically mean that it is capitalism.

The United States has long since abandoned capitalism. You can go back to 1913 or a bit later to Woodrow Wilson or Franklin Roosevelt to find blame as to why/when we abandoned capitalism.

kapil
The Kapil

join:2000-04-26
Chicago, IL

Re: Current customers

said by jayjay5:

The United States has long since abandoned capitalism. You can go back to 1913 or a bit later to Woodrow Wilson or Franklin Roosevelt to find blame as to why/when we abandoned capitalism.
Aaah. Yes, The Ron Paul school of thought. Let's all go back to using the sesterce as currency! Also, there is no gold left at fort knox, and the U.S. should abandon the United Nations and all diplomatic missions across the globe and focus on making selfish greedy little libertarians at even more selfishly rich.
--
»www.Digium.com
NormanS
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:4

Re: Current customers

Probably better than becoming mindless socialist/fascist robots of the Nanny State.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
jayjay5

join:2008-06-09
said by kapil:

Aaah. Yes, The Ron Paul school of thought. Let's all go back to using the sesterce as currency! Also, there is no gold left at fort knox, and the U.S. should abandon the United Nations and all diplomatic missions across the globe and focus on making selfish greedy little libertarians at even more selfishly rich.
You are changing the subject, please don't. My point is that the US abandoned capitalism long ago and yet there is widespread blaming of the current economic crisis on capitalism when there is a lot of evidence that we are not a capitalistic society including the fact that our military budget is larger than the rest of the world's put together. Also we have troops in over 120 countries. Much of this military occupation is to back our business interests. That is corporatism and what us 'Ron Paul' supporters find immoral and illegal.

With relation to this forum:

Our cable and DSL internet providers have exploited consumers by partnering with local governments to get monopoly's. This is corporatism as well. The important thing to fixing the problem is to first see what is happening now and to put the blame in the right corner.

kapil
The Kapil

join:2000-04-26
Chicago, IL

Re: Current customers

said by jayjay5:

You are changing the subject
Not at all. Merely pointing out that this is capitalism as we know it.

Just like socialism/communism was supposed to be a kinder, gentler way of life where everyone wins equally but instead became the corrupt system we saw in the former USSR and in the present day China et al where only the "party leaders" win, while everyone else loses.

This, how we practice capitalism today was always the destiny of the capitalistic model. There is no other way this could have turned out.

Capitalism requires ever growing sales of goods, which requires an ever growing market for those goods....which, is not mathematically possible. Yes, we support our business empire with our military might...had we not, this house of cards would have collapsed decades ago instead of today.

Ron Paul is a moron. And our day of reckoning has been long in the making. This was written. There is no other way this could end.
--
»www.Digium.com
jayjay5

join:2008-06-09

Re: Current customers

said by kapil:

Capitalism requires ever growing sales of goods,
It requires that? It likes growth, yes, but requires? No. I put to you that the 'growth' that we've seen was because of the partnership businesses had with government. I can give you examples.

The automotive industry.. The entire road infrastructure is subsidized by the government(s).

The electric/utility/gas industry.. Their 'rights of way' over vast stretches of land were granted to them by government and the reasoning cited often is "for the greater good" just like the road system. There are countless other examples of the utility industries partnering with government, sometimes with the reason being "national security."

Look at just about every industry and yes greed is there but that greed turned to government to do things that the Constitution does not allow. And in the process politicians would promise "more jobs" passing unconstitutional laws to satisfy our own greed. People are easily taken advantage of when tempted with money.

So I put to you that the cause for the failure of our society that you accurately cite is due to the disregard for the rule of law. It is due to the use of violence to solve problems. The root of government power is violence. That's why they have the guns and bombs and tanks and nukes. Violence is power, to them.

In reality, violence is weakness. You and I know it. A good author who describes human insanity is Eckhart Tolle who talks about collective human 'unconsciousness.' It relates to this subject and our use of violence to control other people (the egoic mind). The collective human ego is what we are dealing with here and governments are one of the strongest element of that but yes too, corporations and also educational institutions.

sturmvogel
Obama '08

join:2008-02-07
Houston, TX
said by capitalist :

Free-market capitalism has nothing to do with our current economic situation. Crony-capitalism, mercantilism, and socialism are to blame.
If socialism would be involved, those crooks "managing" companies like AIG would be in jail. Failure to properly manage/purposefully running into the ground for personal gain a company belonging to the state (as in socialism) is a serious offense that would at least entail a long sentence in a labor camp.
--
Obama '08. Will help resolve the terrible broadband issues we have that put us so far behind other countries.
NormanS
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:4
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC

Re: Current customers

I am told that the direction we are headed is not "socialism" (aka state ownership of the means of production), but "fascism" (aka state partnership with the private owners of the means of production).
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

sturmvogel
Obama '08

join:2008-02-07
Houston, TX

Re: Current customers

said by NormanS:

I am told that the direction we are headed is not "socialism" (aka state ownership of the means of production), but "fascism" (aka state partnership with the private owners of the means of production).
Yes, true. Do something about it. There are many people "seeing" that direction and nobody does anything. Is 1933 Germany already forgotten ? Do not let Obama help escape those that should be prosecuted for the crimes done and that are responsible for the death of over 4000 American soldiers.
--
Obama '08. Will help resolve the terrible broadband issues we have that put us so far behind other countries.
NormanS
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:4

Re: Current customers

I did. But Obama won the election anyway. What more can I do?
fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3
Obama believes he is intelligent, however, its VERY clear he never took a History course to save his life! .. Neither has Queen Pelosi, or Price Reid. Those who don't learn and understand History are bound to repeat it.

A long time ago, listening to Obama and his "vision for a better future" ... over night, obviously never studied the Carter administration... he tried to make too many of the wrong changes at the wrong time.. We're heading down that path.

And, to all the Obama lovers out there, if you can't also see that Obama is back-peddling on almost all of his positions, mostly becuase he realizes that what he wants to do just won't work, well, then there's just no hope for you.

And before you turn this into a black and white issue and assume that I must be "on the other side"... Bush did no better. "Organized politics" don't work.. to assume that we can take one stance and live our lives through the end days and all will be well is completely idiotic.

Bush/Chaney may have had their hands in screwing up the economy,.. Obama is going to put the final nail in our coffin.
jayjay5

join:2008-06-09
said by sturmvogel:

said by capitalist :

Free-market capitalism has nothing to do with our current economic situation. Crony-capitalism, mercantilism, and socialism are to blame.
If socialism would be involved, those crooks "managing" companies like AIG would be in jail. Failure to properly manage/purposefully running into the ground for personal gain a company belonging to the state (as in socialism) is a serious offense that would at least entail a long sentence in a labor camp.
Socialism is involved right now. Corporate socialism, otherwise known as fascism is what we have now. The reason these 'crooks' aren't prosecuted is because it would expose the corruption in the highest levels of the federal government. Corporatism is a partnership. I say to you that this economic situation was artificially but intentionally created so there is no big desire to prosecute. Things are going according to plan.

sturmvogel
Obama '08

join:2008-02-07
Houston, TX

Re: Current customers

said by jayjay5:

said by sturmvogel:

said by capitalist :

Free-market capitalism has nothing to do with our current economic situation. Crony-capitalism, mercantilism, and socialism are to blame.
If socialism would be involved, those crooks "managing" companies like AIG would be in jail. Failure to properly manage/purposefully running into the ground for personal gain a company belonging to the state (as in socialism) is a serious offense that would at least entail a long sentence in a labor camp.
Socialism is involved right now. Corporate socialism, otherwise known as fascism is what we have now. The reason these 'crooks' aren't prosecuted is because it would expose the corruption in the highest levels of the federal government. Corporatism is a partnership. I say to you that this economic situation was artificially but intentionally created so there is no big desire to prosecute. Things are going according to plan.
I believe you may be correct, unfortunately. Obama is a dissapointment to me. I could not vote for McCain that would have continued the same Bush policies and they took out Ron Paul so a voice of reason could not be heard.

Wake up, Americans !
--
Obama '08. Will help resolve the terrible broadband issues we have that put us so far behind other countries.
OwlSaver
OwlSaver
Premium
join:2005-01-30
Berwyn, PA
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
Actually, it is not really so bad. Companies come and companies go. Early on a company grows very fast, but then it reaches a large size. At this large size, it cannot adapt, it just milks profit by small adjustments or acquisition. Then, along comes a smaller and nimbler company.

For cable/telco/tv/movies, the smaller and nimbler company will be an internet based tv network. YouTube is fun for a while, but it is not the same as tuning in to watch Law and Order (fill in your favorite entertainment) each week.

Some creative entrepreneur is going to create a Web only tv network. It probably already exists. There just needs to be an easy way to ply your cat five cable into the back of your tv set and use the tuner metaphor to browse the web for entertainment.

So, while Comcast cannot grow forever, some other company can grow to take its place. Life goes on.

kapil
The Kapil

join:2000-04-26
Chicago, IL

Re: Current customers

said by OwlSaver:

So, while Comcast cannot grow forever, some other company can grow to take its place. Life goes on.
Yes, in theory. But what really happens is that companies pay millions for marketing and lobbying and live well past their "fresh until" date, Terry Schiavo style. That's one hell of a bastardized and perverted way to practice capitalism.
--
»www.Digium.com
me1212

join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO

Re: Current customers

"Yes, in theory. But what really happens is that companies pay millions for marketing and lobbying and live well past their "fresh until" date, Terry Schiavo style. That's one hell of a bastardized and perverted way to practice capitalism."

I know we need to stop the companies to stop lobbing to skrew the little guy and let them live on their own with no Government life line.

sturmvogel
Obama '08

join:2008-02-07
Houston, TX
said by kapil:

said by OwlSaver:

So, while Comcast cannot grow forever, some other company can grow to take its place. Life goes on.
Yes, in theory. But what really happens is that companies pay millions for marketing and lobbying and live well past their "fresh until" date, Terry Schiavo style. That's one hell of a bastardized and perverted way to practice capitalism.
Truth !!!
--
Obama '08. Will help resolve the terrible broadband issues we have that put us so far behind other countries.
jayjay5

join:2008-06-09
said by jmn1207:

said by Rickez:

Why can't these companies strive with current subscriptions to service?
Any publicly traded company has to grow, or promise to grow, in order to gain investment dollars to support their business.
Not true. If a company remains stable while others drop, then that is great. So no, you are right that growth is viewed as good, but if a company remains healthy in a recession or depression, their stock can go up a lot.

jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Ashburn, VA

Re: Current customers

said by jayjay5:

said by jmn1207:

said by Rickez:

Why can't these companies strive with current subscriptions to service?
Any publicly traded company has to grow, or promise to grow, in order to gain investment dollars to support their business.
Not true. If a company remains stable while others drop, then that is great. So no, you are right that growth is viewed as good, but if a company remains healthy in a recession or depression, their stock can go up a lot.
Right, so how much stock do you own that promised to remain stable while competition dropped? How would any investor know that other stock options were going to drop without research? How many would opt for that purchase? Besides, how long can this business model last? It only works for Super God Planet Corporation. Are we destined for one single conglomerate that offers the lowest price and most convenience? I'm shopping for a gun.
jayjay5

join:2008-06-09

Re: Current customers

said by jmn1207:

How would any investor know that other stock options were going to drop without research? How many would opt for that purchase?
You have discovered what the stock market is all about. The entire affair is risky. There are no guarantees. There should be no guarantees because risk is inherent to a universal law beyond we humans and beyond the Earth. When government steps in to eliminate risk, they just pass the risk off to other people (like the taxpayers).

said by jmn1207:

Besides, how long can this business model last? It only works for Super God Planet Corporation. Are we destined for one single conglomerate that offers the lowest price and most convenience? I'm shopping for a gun.
The economic problems we are having now have to do with failed policies by our federal government including the absurdly low interest rates early this decade which caused a bubble of deceptive economic growth. It was all a lie. Our current situation has nothing to do with the failure of capitalism but everything to do with the failure of corporatism. Just because we trade money and stocks around does NOT mean it is capitalism. Corporatism is the problem!!

For example, if we were free to use and trade in any currency we liked (capitalism), then the dollar would immediately go extinct because this currency is continuously inflated/devalued. If we could choose another currency and freely choose to not accept dollars (we can't by law) then the Federal Reserve policy of artificial low or high interest rates to stimulate or slow the economy would be nullified because people would see their shell games.

Our cable and telephone networks are corporatism because they partner to gain government granted monopolies in their markets. If these partnerships were to be abolished then we would have much more open competition and most of us would be better off because it would allow choices.

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