TiVo Wins Another Echostar Patent Ruling > .

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They apparently copied TiVo's DVR design to a T for their DVR's. Not sure what they did to get around it.... if anything.

Not exactly. Tivo patented the concept of watching while recording - i.e. chasing. It's arguable whether they were the first to actually come up with the concept, or whether it was even novel, but they got the patent and that's all that matters.

reply to NeoandGeo
Tivo owns the patents for just about everything you can think of regarding a (P|D)VR, including the mother of all DVR patents. The latest particular ruling is specifically for patent 6,233,389, claims 31 and 61 which basically define how you would expect a DVR to work. If the order is not stayed and/or the appeal is lost, then DVr models DP-501, DP-508, DP-510, DP-522, DP-625, DP-721, DP-921, and DP-942 will lose functionality. Other DVR models are not infringing.

One of 3 things will happen:
1. Echostar wins on appeal
2. Echostar licenses the technology from Tivo
3. Echostar buys TiVO.

Note that there is not a 4th option, the DVRs actually become paperweights. It's not going to happen. Dish would have a mass exodus of customers and TiVO would get no licensing revenues. It's in both companies best interest to do #2 (presuming that #1 doesn't work). That's what I would bet on.

Additionally other companies such as Comcast, Microsoft, Hauppage, AMD, etc. would take a huge hit as based on that patent, they'd all be liable, granted they didn't pay a licensing fee to TIVO.

However, Dish would not likely have a mass exodus as Dish and EchoStar split operations becoming two separate companies a few years back.

reply to cdru

quote:

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Other DVR models are not infringing

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reply to cdru
thats odd. what about the now defunct replaytv (i think directv owns the rights to their stuff), they were one of the first people out with a dvr (including that nice commercial skip).

reply to travelguy

reply to cdru

reply to djrobx

Despite what some people think, TiVo's patents are fairly specific. DVRs which don't implement time shifting in the same way as TiVo's patents document, don't infringe on the patent.

Echostar's older DVRs have the same basic hardware as TiVo's DVRs and implement time shifting in the same way. That's why they infringe.
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The Comcast Disney Avatar has been retired.

reply to Morac

reply to Bassistguy
No, they didn't.

They built there own, but Tivo was shopping their DVR around and later claimed that Echostar "copied" their features. The biggest mistake Echostar made was allowing Tivo to make their presentation and examine their equipment, because that became the basis of Tivo's "They copied ours" argument. Echostar tried to show that DVR's were being developed simultaneously, and that many features were obvious extensions of existing technology but they lost.

It's a moot point but It's always annoying to hear people state "Echostar just copied Tivo" as if it was a fact.

Echostar had to pay. Now they're being told to pay again because they didn't shutdown everyone's DVR's at the time.
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"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini

Echostar wasn't developing anything when Tivo Demoed to them. Tivo provided software (including source code) and hardware that Echostar completely reverse engineered over a 6 month "review" of the equipment then turned around and released their own DVR which was a nearly direct copy of the Tivo Unit a VERY short time (I recall it being around 2 months later which means they started production arrangements while still "evaluating" the Tivo unit) after telling Tivo they weren't interested.

Fortunately Tivo had patented some very novel technology to address the challenges that computers had when this was all invented. Technology today that seems trivial but certainly wasn't at the time. Most people fail to realize that the First Tivo's ran on 50mhz processors and the best Intel processors at the time were around 300mhz (and cost more than the Tivo box to produce). Computers of this era weren't capable of recording MPEG video on boxes that cost less than $2000 and certainly weren't capable of recording while playing back a separate stream (or recording 2 and playing back one as some early boxes could do). The idea of using a computer to record and playback at the same time with a box that consumers could afford in a settop box case was unimaginable at the time. I remember when I first heard about what Tivo's could do and how novel of an idea it was. Not only that, but how much effort Tivo and ReplayTV spent just trying to educate consumers on exactly what a DVR was and how it was different than a VCR. Close to 15 years after Tivo and ReplayTV invented the DVR the technology may seem obvious, but it wasn't at the time.

IMO Dish is one of the dirtiest companies around for what they did and they deserve to be punished for it. Without the patents they could have legally stolen the technology, but fortunately that won't be the case. I also think they owe Tivo a whole hell of a lot more money than they have paid and they SHOULD have to shut down all their DVR's until they license the technology from Tivo on Tivo's terms. Dish is a crappy company, Charlie is an asshole and they deserve what's happening to them after engaging in corporate espionage under the auspicies of buying product. Dish's behavior is exactly the type of greedy BS that got this country into the problems we are currently facing in the banking sector.

reply to BSD24

reply to cdru
Well, luckily for many customers, they will not have to worry about that.

»news.prnewswire.com/ViewContent.···4&EDATE=

reply to rahvin112
You just repeated Tivo's claims. No proof that's what actually happened. Tivo was shopping theirs around. It's a good thing for Tivo that ReplayTV (and later SonicBlue) were being sued into oblivion by Hollywood because had they survived and not had to sell off their IP they could be the one suing Tivo.

It's moot at this point.
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"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini

reply to belawrence

Oops, sorry - quote came from somebody else.