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Matt3
All noise, no signal.
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
kudos:12
reply to jester121

Re: Health care socialist?

said by jester121:

said by Matt3:

The socialism argument always makes me laugh.
Percentage of American corporations that the government is entitled to own: 0%. No graph needed.
You're right. Clearly the solution is to let them fail, force hundreds of thousands to become unemployed, and further burden the system.


jester121
Premium
join:2003-08-09
Lake Zurich, IL

said by Matt3:

You're right. Clearly the solution is to let them fail, force hundreds of thousands to become unemployed, and further burden the system.
Ah, it's all about "the system" isn't it? I thought the Democrats were all about the individual and standing up the little guy? Central planning takes care of that nicely (at least until it's actually tried outside of a textbook or manifesto.)

patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
kudos:1
reply to jester121

Re: Change

said by jester121:

It's nothing new and it's not a (R) or (D) issue. It's just wrong.
Its the 2 party system issue. Either way one of the 2 win, and if you bribe both.....

republic != democracy

the US republic is a monarchy of lords who elect their puppet king

remember a true federal republic usually turns into a low level civil war as members of the federation take their states rights to the limit, thats the closest you can get to a democracy in a federal republic

patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
kudos:1
reply to amigo_boy

Re: Health care socialist?

said by amigo_boy:

said by sirwoogie:

• Encouraging (in fact threatening... "we don't get it passed this year, it'll never pass") a completely socialistic health care program.
We already have socialized health care. Public law sets quality standards for goods and services higher than a truly "free market" would produce. The result is that those who can't afford this artificially (socially) created market are threatened with prison if they attempt to purchase lessor medical services from someone who isn't duly licensed by *the* medical association. Or, tries to purchase lessor products (like medicine) from a neighbor who makes it in their bathtub.

I'm not necessarily saying we should have a truly "lassez faire," market-driven health care system. But, it's creative to say that what we have now isn't socialized.

IMO, what we have to today is incredibly perverse. We limit health care choices for the poor. We deny them the opportunity to purchase inferior goods and services if that's all they can afford. We do this so everyone else's "market-based" choices will be easier. (Their "market" outcomes more predictable than if they had to perform their own due diligence in a wild, raw, "free" market of willing buyers and willing sellers.). And then, when it's suggested that this is essentially a *wealth transfer* from the poor (denying them a market of willing buyers and sellers which would exist in a free market), we're told that anyone who would suggest this is a *socialist.*

Mark
Yep, free market doesn't exist. Capitalism turns everything into a natural monopoly with the military/police/courts to enforce the monopoly.

Other examples, zoning code where anything other than an empty lot in the municipal limit requires a zoning code waiver which is at the board's personal vaguely following a master plan that changes every 5 years.

Unions that bribe the feds and state govts to legislatively enforce closed shops.

In my experience, and the comments of my cynical doctor relatives, all of medicine follows a flow chart enforced by malpractice lawsuits, NIH (read federal govt) studies, and personality cult supporting peer review journal articles. The flow charts almost always say treat symptoms, the cause is irrelevant until you fall down unconscious Prozac and Oxycontin and Adderal fix all, or spend $50K per incident in xray/ct/mri/dye tracing for a stubbed toe since it might be toe cancer, or the paper cut might be infected. Violating the flowchart is instantly wining a malpractice lawsuit. 90% of the health care, outside of surgery, can be done by a McDonalds worker following the flow chart, with the same salary, nurses and doctors are just pork jobs. Nurse assistants sort of are an implementation of the McDonalds worker concept.

Another problem is treatments that work 5% over placebo, yet costs $1000s, but by "ethics" and malpractice lawsuits you have to do. Cancer treatment is filled with them. Your going to die, face it, spending more $ than you will earn in your lifetime on your treatment is insane.

Its funny when you read these studies on drugs that have a 40% placebo cure rate and the drug has a %45 drug cure rate (looking at an antacid). Maybe its time to just prescribe Supernull 45mg.

50 years ago cholesterol levels were irrelevant, because there were no drugs for them. Now with cooked studies, drug companies make a fortune off old fat asses that stuff their face with burgers and fries and wonder why they have heart attacks and are so fat (no your 60 inch waist line and your motorized wheelchair means your "healthy" and not going to die of tuberculosis). Loose the ****ing weight, no drugs and no insurance for you. You have a desk job, your not in a cotton field or a coal mine from dawn to dusk, an 8000 calorie diet was for your ancestors, not you. Its like giving a lung transplant to a smoker.

The lack of co-payments in medicare/medicaid and medicare/supplementary medicare insurance people makes them run to the doc every time for a paper cut wasting $100s if not $1000s.

Also research for a cure is not allowed in the USA. If you propose a cure, you will never get funding, and your university director will shut you down for being psuedoscience, and establishment will bad mouth you if you go looking for private investors/donations. A cure never made any doctor or company money. NIH/university/drug company system will NEVER EVER find a cure for AIDS or Cancer, its financial suicide. Only the treatments that promise to be the most expensive ever get R&Ded. So your Medicare style socialized medicine system for all will skyrocket like a hockeystick from 5% of the US GDP to maybe 50% or higher, this country's economy will just exist on giving healthcare, we will be like Saudia Arabia, but with healthcare instead of oil.

patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
kudos:1
reply to Matt3

said by Matt3:

You're right. Clearly the solution is to let them fail, force hundreds of thousands to become unemployed, and further burden the system.
Taking them over is just the end step in corporate welfare, why worry about cranky stockholders, we promise we wont complain, but we do want 100% of your dividends as income tax. The scheme is that they are now/will be a great source of tax revenue, 100% tax, its delicious. Plus all those jobs create tax revenue (FICA/etc). That bailout money, unless there is typical corporate graft, will become wages with a 35% cut into taxes, or higher (sales, property, etc), so the govt is just giving itself $ using the car company as a front.


SLD
Premium
join:2002-04-17
San Francisco, CA
reply to sirwoogie

Re: Change

There was a change option on the table, but very few voted for him. Nader only got like 3% of the vote despite being the only viable candidate that stood for the rights of citizens against corporations and corrupted gov't.
I guess "we" get what we vote for...
...ooops, I'm stuck with what *you* voted for!



KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
reply to jester121

said by jester121:

None of the trillions in spending is going to do anything to "fix" the mess; it's going to drastically increase the size of the government and its debt, and saddle future generations with it. It's nothing new and it's not a (R) or (D) issue. It's just wrong.
Actually, I think the staved off a disaster with this spending. Yes, I know it's a disaster we had to do this, but I believe had they NOT done this, out entire economy would have collapsed and we'd be living under marshal law right now.

You may find this video interesting. Listen to the angry caller at first, and then the reply. But the important part comes about 2:20 or so into the video. Listen to what he says about a global run on our banks.

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NMu1mFao3w

--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini


Noah Vail
Son made my Avatar
Premium
join:2004-12-10
Lorton, VA
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Bright House
reply to expert007

said by expert007:

Check your instant messages Spanky, I don't take kindly to others "translating" my posts. Have a nice day.
Like everyone, I'm totally blown away by the force of...
...whatever it is you have.

NV
--
In my perfect religion, a giant hole appears and sucks up all the lousy people.
I call it the Crapture.

expert007

join:2006-01-10
Buffalo, NY

Um.....yeah.

Because anyone who doesn't think like you is quite obviously a .......(insert whatever adjective you like).

There is simply no other way. Thank you for showing me the light.


expert007

join:2006-01-10
Buffalo, NY
reply to patcat88

Re: Health care socialist?

All this ranting is impressive, but no one seems to want to acknowledge that the Federal Gov't actually has an exit strategy for GM, and it's less than 5 years. MUCH less than 5 years.

Sorry to rain on your right wing parade.



Noah Vail
Son made my Avatar
Premium
join:2004-12-10
Lorton, VA
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Bright House
reply to expert007

Re: Change

said by expert007:

Um.....yeah.
That's Yea BABY! to you.

said by expert007:

Because anyone who doesn't think like you is quite obviously a .......(insert whatever adjective you like).
A competent re-examination would reveal that it is the LACK of thinking that merits the bulk of my concern.

The exception being
when I outline the points
that prove how certain lines of thinking
are undeniably delusional.

At that point, I'm not offering an opinion of the delusion, just exposing it to the searing light of reason.

Once folks understand the delusion for what it is, they can formulate their own opinions.

said by expert007:

There is simply no other way. Thank you for showing me the light.
Hey, no problem. I am the living embodiment of Public Service.
I'd be remiss if I let may God-given gifts go to waste.

NV
--
In my perfect religion, a giant hole appears and sucks up all the lousy people.
I call it the Crapture.