Topic 'Re: Competitve and robust...' in forum ''

Topic 'Re: Competitve and robust...' in forum '' - dslreports.com http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22500411 en Fri, 10 Feb 2012 15:06:12 EDT Fri, 10 Feb 2012 15:06:12 EDT Re: Competitve and robust... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22517816 said by elray:

Local action is fine, but not by government. Form a coop. Having the public purse strings finance the operation means there is no incentive for efficiency, nor respect for the public/customers.The models of many muni projects I've seen don't preclude private enterprise. The setup is such that the local government owns the right of ways and the physical infrastructure and local ISPs and co-ops lease capacity. The municipality need only maintain the infrastructure. This model works. It eliminates the last mile monopoly on services that is one of the problems plaguing networks owned by the incumbents.

A third party who owns and rents out the network to any provider who can afford to lease capacity is the best model as demonstrated by the shortcomings of the current model of leasing networks.

Do you think, for a moment, that Verizon would deploy FIOS if every local government announced their intent to build a municipal fiber system?

Absolutely not. But truth be told, the best answer to the question is, would every local government deploy an FTTH system if the local carrier was delivering networks that are modern and up to date? And the response to that would be, "No."
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"This is a bus. You know how big a bus is?"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22517816 Mon, 08 Jun 2009 19:06:20 EDT Re: Competitve and robust... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22516753 said by NetAdmin1:

said by elray:

I just oppose it being run by or paid for by the government at any level.

And unlike people who blindly stick to the free market, competition solves EVERYTHING dogma, I look at the reality that some areas will never be profitable, the free market isn't ALWAYS the solution and that no option should be eliminated. There is a reason that government agencies are involved in certain services and it is because those services just are unprofitable and can't be made profitable. On the same token, if an area is unprofitable enough that even small operators won't touch it, then no one should stand in the way of a local effort to get service, even if it is run by the local government. Local action by people in their communities was one of the concepts that stated this nation.
Local action is fine, but not by government. Form a coop. Having the public purse strings finance the operation means there is no incentive for efficiency, nor respect for the public/customers.

I know free market doesn't apply to all situations, especially the last mile, which is a "natural" monopoly - there are narrow cases for regulation. Ironically, it is regulation, requiring telco to provide services, that forms part of the basis of the argument against your proposal.

I've been around long enough to see what happens when we ask government to take up a task, rather than charter a coop or investor-owned entity which is responsive to its customers. It is a recipe for fraud, waste, abuse, and of course, more taxation. It is also an invitation to retribution. The incumbent may have plans to install/upgrade broadband, but the GSE's announcement will de-prioritize the deployment.

VZ and the ILECs asks to "stand in the way" of government competition, because it is their franchise, and government charged them to serve the area for POTS. Undercutting the ILEC or VZ will deprive them of operating revenues at the same time they're required to provide service. One might think the same argument applies to a coop, but it doesn't - the coop can't cross-subsidize itself through taxation, and therefore, sell below cost without consequence.

Do you think, for a moment, that Verizon would deploy FIOS if every local government announced their intent to build a municipal fiber system?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22516753 Mon, 08 Jun 2009 15:56:48 EDT Re: Competitve and robust... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22514775 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22514775 Mon, 08 Jun 2009 10:24:45 EDT Re: Competitve and robust... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22511298 said by elray:

I just oppose it being run by or paid for by the government at any level. And unlike people who blindly stick to the free market, competition solves EVERYTHING dogma, I look at the reality that some areas will never be profitable, the free market isn't ALWAYS the solution and that no option should be eliminated. There is a reason that government agencies are involved in certain services and it is because those services just are unprofitable and can't be made profitable. On the same token, if an area is unprofitable enough that even small operators won't touch it, then no one should stand in the way of a local effort to get service, even if it is run by the local government. Local action by people in their communities was one of the concepts that stated this nation.

The free market and competition dogma works for the most part, but in instances where it won't work, trotting it out as an excuse to stand in the way of local action doesn't hold water.
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"This is a bus. You know how big a bus is?"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22511298 Sun, 07 Jun 2009 15:05:04 EDT Re: Competitve and robust... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22509847 said by NetAdmin1:

said by elray:

Nope. No one "has to" live in a rural setting. It is a choice.
If you feel it is more important to have urban broadband, then sell your farm to someone who wants to till the land more than download at blistering speed. It is a choice, pure and simple.

Look at you, making up terms on the spot... "Urban broadband". What on earth is that?

All I have to say is that, thankfully, people with your attitude toward rural areas didn't stop rural electrification. Unlike you, I can see the potential benefits that rural broadband can bring to the nation as well.

You obviously haven't been paying too much attention to the whole muni-debate because legislation has been proposed in both the US Congress and a number of state houses, back by all of the major phone companies, that would prohibit muni projects. Read my post again.

Verizon DOES NOT oppose overbuilders, Wisps, or coops.

As for the "muni-debate", yes I'm quite familiar with it.
Let me get this right: Verizon has invested tens of billions of dollars both in its original network, and more billions upgrading it, but any impatient local government can tap the taxpayers to open up their own, never-profitable competing enterprise? Sorry, but that's unfair competition, and is/should remain illegal.
Of course telco would fight it.

I have direct experience with municipal broadband.
In my town, we have both a city fiber system, and a city WiFi system. Both have consumed millions of dollars, and neither is yet accessible to the public - and the fiber system is ten years old! Most city WiFi efforts are spectacular failures - perhaps equally attributable to the technology and government sloth, but universally a waste of money, and strand the public with not only the expense but chase away the potential Wisp, Coop, or other for-profit venture that would dare risk entry into a marginal marketplace.

I have plenty of critiques for VZ, AT&T, and the cablecos, and that includes last-mile monopolistic and anti-competitive practices, deliberate neglect, denial of service and retaliatory behaviors But the solution is more competitors, not taxing to create another government bureaucracy.

I don't oppose rural broadband. You're right, I don't see any national benefit to it, but I don't oppose it. I just oppose it being run by or paid for by the government at any level.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22509847 Sun, 07 Jun 2009 04:57:10 EDT Re: Competitve and robust... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22506904 said by elray:

Nope. No one "has to" live in a rural setting. It is a choice.
If you feel it is more important to have urban broadband, then sell your farm to someone who wants to till the land more than download at blistering speed. It is a choice, pure and simple.Look at you, making up terms on the spot... "Urban broadband". What on earth is that?

All I have to say is that, thankfully, people with your attitude toward rural areas didn't stop rural electrification. I live in an urban area, but understand the benefits that project brought to the rest of the nation. Unlike you, I can see the potential benefits that rural broadband can bring to the nation as well.

Verizon is NOT preventing people from forming Coops, or Wisps from competing, or munis inviting overbuilders. Verizon's monopoly right extends only to its Fios coverage, and even there, they have at least two discounting resellers.

You obviously haven't been paying too much attention to the whole muni-debate because legislation has been proposed in both the US Congress and a number of state houses, back by all of the major phone companies, that would prohibit muni projects. Do some research. Look up how the incumbents have all challenged muni projects of the course of the last couple of years, sometimes successfully.
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"This is a bus. You know how big a bus is?"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22506904 Sat, 06 Jun 2009 12:05:52 EDT Re: Competitve and robust... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22505840 said by NetAdmin1:

Problem is that incumbents, including Verizon, are working very hard to prevent localities that are under-served from doing just that - building the infrastructure that the likes of Verizon and ATT don't want to build.

And just to correct you, people living in rural areas is very necessary.
Nope. No one "has to" live in a rural setting. It is a choice.
If you feel it is more important to have urban broadband, then sell your farm to someone who wants to till the land more than download at blistering speed. It is a choice, pure and simple.

Verizon is NOT preventing people from forming Coops, or Wisps from competing, or munis inviting overbuilders. Verizon's monopoly right extends only to its Fios coverage, and even there, they have at least two discounting resellers.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22505840 Sat, 06 Jun 2009 04:06:43 EDT Re: Competitve and robust... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22503692 said by NetAdmin :

Seriously, the food you eat doesn't come from the supermarket, it comes from the farms that are spread throughout rural America.NO! You're lying! The supermarkets pull the food out of their asses, I've seen it myself.
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Freedom isn't free!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22503692 Fri, 05 Jun 2009 18:20:03 EDT Re: Competitve and robust... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22502713 said by elray:

If you don't have broadband service to your liking, you either move to it, wait for it, make it happen (plant some poles, run some cable, form a Wisp, etc), or do without. If you read the entirety of my post instead of half-ass comprehending it, you would have seen that I advocated that folks do something. Problem is that incumbents, including Verizon, are working very hard to prevent localities that are under-served from doing just that - building the infrastructure that the likes of Verizon and ATT don't want to build.

And just to correct you, people living in rural areas is very necessary. I'd love to see you buy and plow 1000+ acres of land into a corn field in the middle of LA. Seriously, the food you eat doesn't come from the supermarket, it comes from the farms that are spread throughout rural America.
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"This is a bus. You know how big a bus is?"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22502713 Fri, 05 Jun 2009 15:39:23 EDT Re: Competitve and robust... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22502560
Also, Verizon IS holding some areas hostage. They've apparently forgoten my town exists; no DSL, no fiber, no selling out to another area, no infrastructure improvements.

And by no DSL, I mean Verizon flat-out doesn't have a DSLAM in the CO...in town!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22502560 Fri, 05 Jun 2009 15:17:45 EDT Re: Competitve and robust... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22502531 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22502531 Fri, 05 Jun 2009 15:14:29 EDT Re: Competitve and robust... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22502480 said by NetAdmin1:

said by baineschile:

If broadband is that important to a consumer, they should move to a metro area, not a rural one.

... your post ... assumes that everyone lives in the rural areas purely by choice alone. Necessity dictates that folks live in rural areas and those folks shouldn't be cut off from the rest of the world purely by the accident of their location.

Those folks should have access to a modern communications infrastructure ...
They're not cut off, and their location IS a choice, not "an accident", or a necessity. Nor is broadband a necessity.

They DO have broadband option(s). You just don't like them, and you don't want to pay the rural premium.

Verizon is not holding rural areas hostage without service, as you and others imply. Instead, they've sold off a majority of those holdings to the likes of Fairpoint / Frontier / Carlyle.

As for the OP, he's hit the nail on the head: Move.

Back in the day, I moved many a business concern, lock-stock-and-barrel, from GTE to Pacific Telephone locations, in order that they had dialtone, to stay in business. It wasn't a hard sell. Service was so bad, even the city evicted GTE.

If you have children in Los Angeles, you move to a school district other than LAUSD if you don't want to pay private school tuition. (Palos Verdes rocks!).

If you don't have broadband service to your liking, you either move to it, wait for it, make it happen (plant some poles, run some cable, form a Wisp, etc), or do without.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22502480 Fri, 05 Jun 2009 15:07:56 EDT Re: Competitve and robust... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22502425 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22502425 Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:59:52 EDT Re: Competitve and robust... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22502178 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22502178 Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:25:27 EDT Re: Competitve and robust... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22502038 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22502038 Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:00:37 EDT Re: Competitve and robust... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22502031 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22502031 Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:00:00 EDT Re: Competitve and robust... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22501853 said by baineschile:

If broadband is that important to a consumer, they should move to a metro area, not a rural one.If everyone lived in the urban areas, how do you proposed that we grow the food this nation consumes? Fully automated farming hasn't been perfected yet.

The problem with the logic in your post is that it assumes that everyone lives in the rural areas purely by choice alone. Necessity dictates that folks live in rural areas and those folks shouldn't be cut off from the rest of the world purely by the accident of their location.

Those folks should have access to a modern communications infrastructure and the providers should either provide it or let localities provide it. Problem is that providers want neither.
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"This is a bus. You know how big a bus is?"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22501853 Fri, 05 Jun 2009 13:30:43 EDT Re: Competitve and robust... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22501375 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22501375 Fri, 05 Jun 2009 12:14:56 EDT Re: Competitve and robust... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22501369 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22501369 Fri, 05 Jun 2009 12:13:59 EDT Re: Competitve and robust... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22501143 said by openbox9:

Because allowing municipalities to start their own businesses using taxpayer money establishes precedence that no for profit company wants to allow.
So? If a company isn't willing to step up to the plate and provide reasonable broadband speeds and prices, then they should have no recourse to stop someone else from doing it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22501143 Fri, 05 Jun 2009 11:36:21 EDT Re: Competitve and robust... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22500927 --
My time is a piece of wax, falling on a termite, that's choking on a splinter. --Beck]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22500927 Fri, 05 Jun 2009 11:05:30 EDT Re: Competitve and robust... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22500901 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22500901 Fri, 05 Jun 2009 11:02:01 EDT Re: Competitve and robust... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22500874 --
My time is a piece of wax, falling on a termite, that's choking on a splinter. --Beck]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22500874 Fri, 05 Jun 2009 10:57:39 EDT Re: Competitve and robust... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22500815 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22500815 Fri, 05 Jun 2009 10:47:02 EDT Re: Competitve and robust... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22500697 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Competitve-and-robust-22500697 Fri, 05 Jun 2009 10:30:55 EDT Competitve and robust... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Competitve-and-robust-22500411 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Competitve-and-robust-22500411 Fri, 05 Jun 2009 09:42:16 EDT