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Pirate515
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join:2001-01-22
Brooklyn, NY

Pirate515 to lefty1

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to lefty1

Re: Rehirable at a job?

said by lefty1:

I had a somewhat similar situation years ago. A customer accused me of stealing some money, which was totally untrue. I'm not trying to defend myself here, but you would think that after 10 years of employment the company would have known how good my character is. They took the low road and fired me with no investigation (officially I was 'let go' for other reasons) and then bad-mouthed me to other prospective employers for years. I couldn't get jobs I knew I was qualified for while the companies hired many less-qualified candidates.

If I could prove what I'm sure they did, I'd sue them.
Not sure how legal it is, but you could have some friends call them claiming to be prospective employers, and when they badmouth you, sue them and then have these friends who spoke to them testify against them. You could go one step beyond and try to get these conversations recorded, but I believe that you have to notify that you are recording them first, and once you do, they may be more careful about what they say.

Thespis
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.
Premium Member
join:2004-08-03
Keller, TX

Thespis

Premium Member

said by Pirate515:

I believe that you have to notify that you are recording them first, and once you do, they may be more careful about what they say.
It depends on the laws of the state you're doing the recording in. In Texas only one person has to know that the call is being recorded, and that person can be you.

dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium Member
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ

dvd536 to Mr Neutron

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to Mr Neutron
said by Mr Neutron:
said by SurfTheSky:

No, but most places don't *require* that you give contact information for your prior employers. Some even ask you "may we contact this person?"
"References available upon request."
That only shows the prospective employer that you might have something to hide and if they're going through hundreds of apps for a few positions they won't think twice about filing in circular file as they have a biz to run and positions to fill.

Sweet Witch
Be the flame, not the moth.
MVM
join:2003-07-15
Gallifrey

Sweet Witch to Pirate515

MVM

to Pirate515
said by Pirate515:
Not sure how legal it is, but you could have some friends call them claiming to be prospective employers, and when they badmouth you, sue them and then have these friends who spoke to them testify against them. You could go one step beyond and try to get these conversations recorded, but I believe that you have to notify that you are recording them first, and once you do, they may be more careful about what they say.

Ah, but so many companies record all calls 'for training purposes' that it would probably hardly be noticed. Just a statement like "It is our policy to record all reference checks" will cover that and the person calling isn't representing themselves untruthfully.
fartness (banned)
Donald Trump 2016
join:2003-03-25
Look Outside

fartness (banned)

Member

I was thinking about having a friend call. I'll have them do that. What should they say and ask so it sounds like they are a manager of a legit business?

IowaViking
Livin' the nightmare
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join:2003-09-08
Pleasantville, IA

1 recommendation

IowaViking to fartness

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to fartness
DannyZ is 100% correct. There are absolutely NO laws preventing what a former employer can say about you when called as a reference or in relation to a past employer you put down. As the following article states "many people confuse the word law with the word policy" in regards to this situation.

»content.comcast.monster. ··· ome.aspx

So you have little to no chance at any legal action (suing) against your former employer. You MIGHT be able to sue for defamation or slander but the chances of that are slim to none.
Anon00
Premium Member
join:2001-09-25
USA

Anon00

Premium Member

I also don't believe there's direct laws against this type of behavior. It all falls under defamation.

If someone says something that's untrue, embellished, etc that causes you REAL harm, then that person opens themselves and the company up to a potential lawsuit. Which is why bigger, high profile companies don't allow their management to speak to potential employers calling in about former employees. It's more of the fear of a potential defamation suit that causes these policies.

OP, Have your friend call in and just act as a potential employer. He can say, you've put down this person/company as employment history and he's confirming the employment dates. Then have him ask that rehiring question. If they say no, have him prod to see if they would say a reason.

None of that guarantees you anything, but might be worth it just to know what the frak is going on.

hdman
Flt Rider
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join:2003-11-25
Appleton, WI

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I will only confirm former employees start and end dates and no more because of the liabilites involved. If you can prove that a former employer is "blackballing" you from other jobs, you can sue and will win as long as you have the proof. There are significant damage awards paid out in these types of cases every day.

This is why we will answer no other questions than to confirm dates of hire and last date of employment.

I would get a lawyer as long as you can prove this is happening.

Good luck.

Matt3
All noise, no signal.
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join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC

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In almost every state it is well within a company's right to answer whether you are eligible for re-hire or not. They are not allowed to state WHY you are or aren't, but they absolutely can say whether you are. As a matter of fact, you probably signed something that gives them the right to find out anyway if you're at the point where they are verifying references.

The good news is this leaves a loophole. Just say your position was eliminated and they didn't replace you.

marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
MVM
join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO

marigolds to fartness

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One important issue with the rehire question... truth is a defense.

If the company would not rehire you, no matter what the reason, they can defend themselves simply based on that truth.
If they have a policy against hiring employees who voluntarily quit unless that employee applies as a new hire, then they can say that you are not rehirable; because... you aren't.

College students get caught by that a lot. Once they graduate, they are not rehirable in their student jobs. The university will always answer "no" to that question. A potential employer calls up, gets the "no" answer, and misinterprets it and makes a poor decision.
Anon00
Premium Member
join:2001-09-25
USA

Anon00

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Really marigolds? Damn, that's just cold!

RARPSL
join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY

RARPSL to Vampirefo

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to Vampirefo
said by Vampirefo:

In today's market your former employer is stupid, it wont be long until they are sued, No employer that I know, would bad mouth anyone, they would simply state the time frame you worked for them.

They would not release any information on your leaving.
In some cases more is required to be released. When the requester is the State Unemployment Department, they must reveal if you were laid-off/fired or resigned. This information is needed to determine your eligibility for unemployment (you can not collect if you resign since it is assumed that your being out of work is your decision).
Rogue90
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join:2008-01-23
West Milford, NJ

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Sue the bitch for slander.

McSummation
Mmmm, Zeebas Are Tastee.
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join:2003-08-13
Fort Worth, TX

1 edit

McSummation

Premium Member

If all she is doing is telling Truth, there is no slander. He is not rehirable.
sano
join:2001-03-21
Crown Point, IN

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said by RARPSL:

said by Vampirefo:

In today's market your former employer is stupid, it wont be long until they are sued, No employer that I know, would bad mouth anyone, they would simply state the time frame you worked for them.

They would not release any information on your leaving.
In some cases more is required to be released. When the requester is the State Unemployment Department, they must reveal if you were laid-off/fired or resigned. This information is needed to determine your eligibility for unemployment (you can not collect if you resign since it is assumed that your being out of work is your decision).
You can collect if you resign, at least in my state, but it must be for a reason they list.. Change of hours, changed work duties, harassment....................

IT Guy
Ow, My Balls
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join:2004-07-29
Las Cruces, NM

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Just call your state Department of Labor office. They should be able to clear up any confusion (particularly about what, if anything, your employer can or cannot say about you). Fail that, Maybe the EEOC or Fed. Dept. of Labor could help?

McSummation
Mmmm, Zeebas Are Tastee.
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Fort Worth, TX

McSummation

Premium Member

EEOC only if he's a "minority". FDL only if a union is involved.

Don't kid yourselves, folks, as long as the previous employer is not lying about him, there's nothing he can do. They can mark him as nonrehirable for any reason they want.
amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22

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said by fartness:

One of my bosses didn't like me then and she is the one who said I am not rehirable.
Later you said this is because you reported your boss to their superior for some reason.

Without knowing the details, this may be actionable. If you acted in good faith, in accordance with your employer's expectations, and weren't disciplined for "causing trouble," your employer (particularly the boss who was negatively affected) saying you aren't rehireable could be considered retaliation contrary to what you perceived to be the company's own policies.

Those who say employers can say anything as long as it's factual are wrong. This is why most larger employers refuse to provide any information except the dates employed.

You might find a hungry lawyer to conduct a background check on you. If it's the affected boss saying this, you might be able to sue that boss individually, and the company too.

But, that depends on whether there is more info you're not revealing. That you were "difficult" with other managers. And, the "whistle blowing" was part of a larger problem of being a "drama queen."

If there was some tension between you and the company (beyond the single whistle blowing incident), it might be more prudent to simply hire a lawyer to contact the President/CEO and report that employment verification checks are resulting in information that could be actionable.

Just the thought of a headache like that can cause the company to stop. Especially if it's emanating from one former boss with an ax to grind.

Mark
amigo_boy

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amigo_boy to marigolds

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said by marigolds:

One important issue with the rehire question... truth is a defense.
But, not all truth is a matter of public record. The reason a company reveals that info (or, made the decision behind that "truth") may be actionable.

That's why most companies (or larger ones anyway) refuse to answer every question of "truth." There's too much exposure to the question of "why" that truth was revealed, or the process leading up to that truth (why he's not rehireable).

The OP could be sitting on a gold mine if he can determine that the company has a policy prohibiting disclosure of anything but dates of employment. If the disgruntled boss is violating that policy, and the OP had no other work-related problems than the "whistle blower" incident which affected that boss -- *chi ching*. He could go after the boss individually, and the company.

That's why a simple call to someone higher up the food chain might get this resolved easily.

Mark

David
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join:2002-05-30
Granite City, IL

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Heard this a long time ago-
supposedly there was a company you could hire for $20 or so to call your previous employers and they taped the conversations. After that a lot of them (employers) wised up really quick and just verified employment (least in the STL area anyway). Basically they "advertized" it as sue your old employer if they are preventing you from getting employment, and how employers are evil.

Now a days I think that's pretty much all they do is verify employment.
amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22

2 edits

amigo_boy

Member

said by amigo_boy:

The OP could be sitting on a gold mine if he can determine that the company has a policy prohibiting disclosure of anything but dates of employment.
Another thought. Have a respectable third party (an attorney?) call and check on different former employees. Record the conversations if allowed by state law. If different answers are provided ("I can only verify that they worked here") that would add to your claim of harm.

That's the problem with saying that the company can provide "the truth." There are too many variables, such as whether they consistently provide the same truth. Whether there is a context to that truth which they don't reveal (such as "sure we'd rehire her because she worked a lot" or "she had nice boobs." Or, they don't provide any context behind why they wouldn't rehire, such as how you exercised the company's "open-door" policy).

Mark

RARPSL
join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY

RARPSL to marigolds

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to marigolds
said by marigolds:

One important issue with the rehire question... truth is a defense.

If the company would not rehire you, no matter what the reason, they can defend themselves simply based on that truth.
If they have a policy against hiring employees who voluntarily quit unless that employee applies as a new hire, then they can say that you are not rehirable; because... you aren't.

College students get caught by that a lot. Once they graduate, they are not rehirable in their student jobs. The university will always answer "no" to that question. A potential employer calls up, gets the "no" answer, and misinterprets it and makes a poor decision.
OTOH: If the reason why you are not rehirable is due to an ineligibility like this (ie: You are no longer qualified to be hired for the position) failure to divulge this reason is, in effect, lying since there is no reason to NOT tell the cause in this case. There is a difference between not giving a cause of ineligibility due to other reasons and due to no longer being eligible for the position.
amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22

1 edit

amigo_boy

Member

said by RARPSL:

There is a difference between not giving a cause of ineligibility due to other reasons and due to no longer being eligible for the position.
That's exactly the point. If an employer won't state *why* a former employee is (or isn't) rehireable, then they shouldn't say whether the employee is rehireable. Divulging the latter is a way to skirt the former.

That's the problem with saying this is just a matter of the employer telling the truth. The truth is more complicated than whether the individual is rehireable. If the employer saye the individual isn't rehireable, why wouldn't the employer be willing to provide other "truth-based" answers about whether the individual was punctual, energized, trustworthy, approachable?

Because those are subjective. They could lead to a lawsuit. Saying they wouldn't rehire someone is like providing those answers without doing so. But, the effect is the same.

Mark

Mr Neutron
Impassioned Gibberish
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Gorham, ME

Mr Neutron to dvd536

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said by dvd536:
said by Mr Neutron:
said by SurfTheSky:

No, but most places don't *require* that you give contact information for your prior employers. Some even ask you "may we contact this person?"
"References available upon request."
That only shows the prospective employer that you might have something to hide and if they're going through hundreds of apps for a few positions they won't think twice about filing in circular file as they have a biz to run and positions to fill.
That's not necessarily the case.

The idea behind a resume is that you have a single page of paper on which to sell yourself. And most employers are not going to get beyond that single page.

If you've ever had the misfortune to work in HR, you'll know that most of the resumes you get are shit. And by that I mean, the applicant:

A)didn't take the time and trouble to find out what the position entailed,

B)was not capable of writing a coherent resume that told us exactly what s/he could do for the company, or

C) (the most common) simply blew their brains out on a sheet (or sheets) of paper and thought that the people reviewing the resume would be kind enough to sort through the mess for them (we won't).

So, yeah, if you're looking to fill positions with unskilled or semi-skilled labor, you might be anxious to round file resumes because just about anyone can fill the slot. But the positions I had to help fill were, for the most part, engineering positions. And while there are a great many good engineers out there, based on my own experience, there aren't many good engineers who are also good writers when it comes to writing and editing a resume that is actually going to get them a job.

Trust me, if the resume is good enough, the "references available upon request"-bit is not going to pose a problem for a prospective employer if they are interested in you. Besides which, if you're currently working, the last thing you want to have happen is for some manager to call your current manager out-of-the blue when they're still only tepid about the prospect of hiring you.

Far better, instead, to make sure they are interested in you, first, before you start giving out names and numbers. Yes, this approach will not work with all prospective employers, but it's a good approach to take if you are seeking to control who knows what about you.

pog4
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join:2004-06-03
Kihei, HI

pog4 to fartness

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Former employers should not be answering the "rehirable" question... yes OR no. One sets precedent for answering the question and the other is, clearly, a bad reference.

The question, in correct context, is legitimate but it's strictly for internal use. If you applied for work at your former employer, they'd check your employee file and use this info to decide whether or not to bother talking to you. Being rehirable is basically arbitrary... up to whatever your former employer thinks is right.

Releasing this info to 3rd parties is a bad, bad idea... for the same reason it's dumb to give other specifics about a former employee's work performance and history.

There are only two exceptions to all of this, I believe. First of all, the former employee can give permission to release detailed info. A lot of companies still won't do it, though... larger companies, especially.

A former employer can also discuss things at length if, by keeping silent, they are jeopardizing people's lives, health or some other serious thing. Good faith supposedly protects the employer in the event of a lawsuit. (IANAL)
Bobcat79
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said by fartness:

I was thinking about having a friend call. I'll have them do that. What should they say and ask so it sounds like they are a manager of a legit business?
Oh boy. This is not going to turn out well.

Logan 5
What a long strange trip its been
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join:2001-05-25
San Francisco, CA

Logan 5 to Sweet Witch

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to Sweet Witch
said by Sweet Witch:

said by Pirate515:
Not sure how legal it is, but you could have some friends call them claiming to be prospective employers, and when they badmouth you, sue them and then have these friends who spoke to them testify against them. You could go one step beyond and try to get these conversations recorded, but I believe that you have to notify that you are recording them first, and once you do, they may be more careful about what they say.

Ah, but so many companies record all calls 'for training purposes' that it would probably hardly be noticed. Just a statement like "It is our policy to record all reference checks" will cover that and the person calling isn't representing themselves untruthfully.
BE CAREFUL IF YOU DO THIS!

Unless you are from one of the states below that require BOTH parties to consent, only one party needs to know (consent to) the call is being recorded.

* California
* Connecticut
* Florida
* Illinois
* Maryland
* Massachusetts
* Michigan
* Montana
* Nevada
* New Hampshire
* Pennsylvania
* Washington

Source: »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Te ··· d_States

Mr Neutron
Impassioned Gibberish
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join:2005-05-30
Gorham, ME

Mr Neutron to Bobcat79

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said by Bobcat79:
said by fartness:

I was thinking about having a friend call. I'll have them do that. What should they say and ask so it sounds like they are a manager of a legit business?
Oh boy. This is not going to turn out well.
Concur.

"Hi! I'm Bob, the, uh, manager of a legitimate business, and I was wondering about..."