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Bit00
Premium
join:2009-02-19
00000

4 edits

1 recommendation

reply to SLD

Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence

No guy, the world economy took a massive shit over a period of just a few weeks and that is the ONLY reason the price dropped. Oil is sold on the futures market and you had oil producers producing and stockpiling tons of oil based on economic conditions and demand before the economy went over the cliff. Oil traders see the economy instantly tank and they get out and fast, futures prices tank. So now you have few takers for the supply and like all inventories they were far larger than any demand...so the price dropped.

Now we are starting to see the signs of an economic recovery so what is happening, oil is back to $70bbl because traders see increases future demand, oil producers are producing at rates suitable for a tanked economy instead of a recovered one.

Simply put, with the dying economy you had dying demand, price drops. With a recovering economy you have resurgent demand, price is going up. And even with a mediocre recovery, the huge inventory imbalance that got the price way down so fast, starts to correct itself and the price goes back up just as it is doing now.

Meanwhile gov't steals billions either way.

--
POKE 65495,1


wifi4milez
Big Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace

join:2004-08-07
New York, NY
reply to SLD
said by SLD:

But I didn't say that companies should give away their goods/services for free?
You very clearly stated that making a profit is worse than government waste. Hence, you are saying that a company making no profit is good. A company making no profit (a non-profit if you will) is essentially giving its goods/services away for free after they have covered their own expenses. The economy couldnt exist if every company was non-profit, so your argument is fundamentally flawed.

said by SLD:

It is worse for the citizen because they are paying more for the same thing.
How do you figure that? The money needs to come from somewhere. If you arent paying for it directly it is financed by taxes. Given how badly the government manages these programs, the end result is you will pay more that you would have for an inferior product/service.

said by SLD:

But companies have a right to earn a profit. If I can get health care as an option from the gov't for less because no profit, I'll appreciate that option.
You arent really getting it for less. The money for health care still needs to come from someplace, so the gub'ment will need to raise taxes to cover the difference.
--
D-Day; If you can read this thank a soldier
-The United States of America-



Bit00
Premium
join:2009-02-19
00000
I love people who expect other people and companies to work for free while they themselves gladly tax a paycheck.
--
POKE 65495,1


wifi4milez
Big Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace

join:2004-08-07
New York, NY
reply to SLD
A wise person once said, "There is no such thing as a free lunch." Think about that and how it applies here.


Bit00
Premium
join:2009-02-19
00000

1 edit

1 recommendation

They see it as free so long as someone else is paying. They aren't concerned with the burdens their thieving and leeching puts on the productive elements of society.

Thankfully we are not on the only ones who recognize the total failure of government.

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=94lW6Y4t ··· W6Y4tBXs


And no teleprompter
--
POKE 65495,1


SLD
Premium
join:2002-04-17
San Francisco, CA
reply to wifi4milez
Hey, one thing can be better or worse than another, but rating the value doesn't invalidate the service. You insist on stating that I said that services should be given away - this was never said or implied. It's a stupid idea anyway.


SLD
Premium
join:2002-04-17
San Francisco, CA

2 edits
reply to wifi4milez
said by wifi4milez :

You arent really getting it for less. The money for health care still needs to come from someplace, so the gub'ment will need to raise taxes to cover the difference.
Sure, but since no profit needs to be earned on the gov't insurance, the cost will be much lower to the citizen,or they'll get more for their money.


footballdude
Premium
join:2002-08-13
Imperial, MO
reply to SLD
said by SLD:

typically, gov't waste is a pittance compared to corporate profits earned on our backs.
I read that statement in utter disbelief. You actually mean that? Has any corporation EVER wasted even half as much money as the recent stimulus package?

There's no doubt that many (if not most) corporations are run by greedy people that would sell everything good and wholesome for a buck. There's also no doubt that many (if not most) politicians - especially at the federal level - are greedy people looking out solely for their own careers and back pockets who will sanction absolutely anything that's politically expedient, regardless of how badly people get hurt.

I think you have some serious blinders on.
--
It's a trick. Get an axe. - Ash


wifi4milez
Big Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace

join:2004-08-07
New York, NY

1 recommendation

reply to SLD
said by SLD:

Sure, but since no profit needs to be earned on the gov't insurance, the cost will be much lower to the citizen,or they'll get more for their money.
Thats a total fallacy. Unlike a "regular" company that needs to make a profit in order to survive, the government doesnt have that restriction. They will (and have!) run the program into the ground and simply raise taxes to cover their inability to manage it properly.

Look at any gov run institution if you dont believe me. Since nobody is held to a standard (since they arent out to make a profit right?), it foments a culture of laziness. Take the DMV for example, those people are total bums and literally dont care about anything other than stamping their time cards. Now take those same "overly qualified " morons and simply place them in the back office that controls nationalized health care. Is THAT really your idea of how things should be??
--
D-Day; If you can read this thank a soldier
-The United States of America-



Bit00
Premium
join:2009-02-19
00000

1 edit
reply to SLD
said by SLD:

And typically, gov't waste is a pittance compared to corporate profits earned on our backs.
Total government liabilities now exceed $63,000,000,000,000.00, that is over $500,000.00 per household. National yearly deficit has quadrupled in just 1 year to $1,800,000,000,000.00. The CBO projects that our national debt will DOUBLE in just the next decade to $20,000,000,000,000.00. Servicing that debt alone will cost $1,000,000,000,000.00 a year.

Don't even think of comparing corporate profit which is EARNED as a productive element of society to the level of government waste that we are seeing and have seen over the last 30 years and particularly over the last 8-9.
--
POKE 65495,1


lakerfan82

join:2009-01-30
Corona, CA
reply to footballdude
footballdude See Profile
There's no doubt that many (if not most) corporations are run by greedy people that would sell everything good and wholesome for a buck. There's also no doubt that many (if not most) politicians - especially at the federal level - are greedy people looking out solely for their own careers and back pockets who will sanction absolutely anything that's politically expedient, regardless of how badly people get hurt.
Isn't that the truth...its as if people believe that corporations have a monopoly on greed. The same types of greedy people running the corporations are also running the government. Corps at least have competition and shareholders to keep themselves in check. The gov't? There's no competition to keep the gov't in check, they can tax all they want and waste all they want. No one is going to run the gov't out of business. I guess technically the gov't answers to the voters, but when voters only have two choices, there's not much accountability...

lesopp

join:2001-06-27
Land O Lakes, FL

1 edit
reply to mod_wastrel
said by mod_wastrel:

It's that whole "money is the root of all evil" thing.
Sounds like a populist message that has been skewed by the current fascist regime.

The correct phrase is "The love of money is the root of all evil"

We are not evil because we need money. We need it to pay our mortgages, feed our families, cloth our children and help those less fortunate.


NetAdmin1
CCNA

join:2008-05-22
reply to wifi4milez
said by wifi4milez:

Take the DMV for example, those people are total bums and literally dont care about anything other than stamping their time cards.
Strange, I see that in the private sector all over the place too.
--
"This is a bus. You know how big a bus is?"


Bit00
Premium
join:2009-02-19
00000
Nothing like the DMV, at least the CA DMV.
--
POKE 65495,1

lesopp

join:2001-06-27
Land O Lakes, FL
reply to SLD
I think it comes from Amtrack's balance sheet.


TSWYO
Premium
join:2003-05-03
Cheyenne, WY
reply to Bit00
If so called demand is up... Average out the last three months of 2008 with the first three months of 2009 and motor gasoline use was down in the first three months of 2009.

»tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/hist/ ··· 001m.htm


mod_wastrel
anonome

join:2008-03-28
kudos:1
reply to lesopp
I was just using a figure of speech, not trying to quote proverbs. (Did you read my previous post where I said "[money] is not evil"?)


wifi4milez
Big Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace

join:2004-08-07
New York, NY
reply to NetAdmin1
said by NetAdmin1:

said by wifi4milez:

Take the DMV for example, those people are total bums and literally dont care about anything other than stamping their time cards.
Strange, I see that in the private sector all over the place too.
Of course, except that firing those people (in the private sector) doesnt require an act of God in most cases. The inherent laziness is what makes all gov run institutions dysfunctional.
--
D-Day; If you can read this thank a soldier
-The United States of America-


lesopp

join:2001-06-27
Land O Lakes, FL
reply to SLD
Dude, give up already! Saying one thing and meaning something else only works for Obama.


lakerfan82

join:2009-01-30
Corona, CA

2 recommendations

reply to NetAdmin1
said by NetAdmin1:

said by wifi4milez:

Take the DMV for example, those people are total bums and literally dont care about anything other than stamping their time cards.
Strange, I see that in the private sector all over the place too.
The thing is, if there's "waste" in the private sector, its not your problem. If you don't like the service, you don't have to continue as their customer. Corps at least have incentive not to waste to keep you as a customer and to stay in business. On the other hand, when there is gov't waste, it is your problem for 2 reasons. First, the DMV is your ONLY source of service, you can't go anywhere else. Second, your hard earned tax dollars are paying for their employees to be apathetic bums.

sonicmerlin

join:2009-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:1
reply to Bit00
Exxon has had the highest total profit for a quarter in the history of any single corporation in the entire world.


FFH5
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5
said by sonicmerlin:

Exxon has had the highest total profit for a quarter in the history of any single corporation in the entire world.
Profit and profit % are 2 different things. Total profit is meaningless as it only reflects the size of a company. It is the % that matters and Exxon has never led the world in profit %.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page


wifi4milez
Big Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace

join:2004-08-07
New York, NY
reply to lakerfan82
said by lakerfan82:

said by NetAdmin1:

said by wifi4milez:

Take the DMV for example, those people are total bums and literally dont care about anything other than stamping their time cards.
Strange, I see that in the private sector all over the place too.
The thing is, if there's "waste" in the private sector, its not your problem. If you don't like the service, you don't have to continue as their customer. Corps at least have incentive not to waste to keep you as a customer and to stay in business. On the other hand, when there is gov't waste, it is your problem for 2 reasons. First, the DMV is your ONLY source of service, you can't go anywhere else. Second, your hard earned tax dollars are paying for their employees to be apathetic bums.
Very well said!
--
D-Day; If you can read this thank a soldier
-The United States of America-


sonicmerlin

join:2009-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:1
reply to mrkevin
Republicans talk about a "free market", but in a true free market profit tends towards zero. That's in the best interests of the public, because any profit that a corporation makes simply goes into the coffers of rich executives or banked away by the company.

All those billions in profits in other words are drained from the national economy. So yes, if companies are making lots of profit especially due to a lack of competition, it is very, very evil, and hurts everyone but the richest.

And Republicans and Democrats are NOT two sides of the same coin, unless you take a century-long view. While there are honest Democrats and honest Republicans, and liars on both sides, Republicans by and large are biased, selfish rednecks or rich jerks who care only about doing away with government control just enough to let them abuse the populace to make even more money. The fact is our entire quality of life would be different had a Democrat been elected instead of Bush, who basically trashed our national economy and alienated the US with all its foreign allies.


Bit00
Premium
join:2009-02-19
00000
reply to sonicmerlin
Yes, that is why I chose Exxon for my example given how they were so villified for the massive profits they made during the record demand period for oil products.

And knowing what Exxon made anyone can appreciate the INSANE amount of money the government reaped from those operations despite the government not having done a damn thing for it.
--
POKE 65495,1


Bit00
Premium
join:2009-02-19
00000

4 edits
reply to sonicmerlin
Those billions in profit are not "drained" from the national economy because those profits are reinvested in the business, buying more equipment, developing new products, hiring more people and/or paid as dividends to shareholders who then spend it.

And lets not forget, for all but utilities (which are for the most part regulated), that money is given up by consumer choice, it is not stolen from them. If someone doesn't want to drop $2000 on a new MacBook Pro or $30000 on a new car they don't have to. If someone doesn't want to buy zillions of gallons of $5/gal in gas they can carpool, combine trips, drive a more economical car, ride a bike, etc. Even when it comes to utilities, they can turn off lights, use the A/C less, water the lawn less and save their money.

No one is putting a gun to anyone's head so that a corporation can make profit.

The government on the other hand STEALS their money under penalty of imprisonment. People don't have the choice of keeping their money by not using government services. And the harder a person works, the more productive they are, the more the government steals from them. The government punishes hard work with progressive taxes and rewards the lazy.
--
POKE 65495,1

sonicmerlin

join:2009-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:1
reply to Bit00
Our national budget is in such debt precisely because the government has to fix the horrible situation created by the completely irresponsible deregulation of various industries by the Bush administration.

If you knew anything about Keynesian economics you would understand why the government has to pass these stimulus funds to jolt our economy out of the gutter.

On the flip side, once the economy recovers Democrats are much more likely than Republicans to be fiscally responsible.

Even if corporate profit is "earned" (cough monopolies cough), all that profit is essentially a DRAIN on our economy. The money isn't spent. It simply goes into offshore bank accounts where it becomes some sort of rainy day fund for the corporation, or pads rich people's coffers. Every dollar that the government spends actually goes back into the economy, even creating jobs and the like.

The most efficient scenario are for little government interference while corporations make zero profit overall. However, history has shown time and time again that this never happens. When the government lets rich people run amok, they abuse their power.


wifi4milez
Big Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace

join:2004-08-07
New York, NY
reply to sonicmerlin
said by sonicmerlin:

The fact is our entire quality of life would be different had a Democrat been elected instead of Bush, who basically trashed our national economy and alienated the US with all its foreign allies.
So you are saying that you prefer the current "situation" over any given moment (take your pick) from the last 8 years? If so, you must be one of the only people in this country without a serious case of 'buyers remorse!'
--
D-Day; If you can read this thank a soldier
-The United States of America-



Bit00
Premium
join:2009-02-19
00000

4 edits
reply to sonicmerlin
Wrong, the government debt was $10,000,000,000,000.00 LONG before there was any hint of a recession and both Republican and Democratic Congresses contributed hugely to it every year. Recession or not, Obama and the Pelosi politburo had their agenda to spend hundreds of billions, he said as much during the campaign, long before the state of the economy reached what it did around the time of the election.

And doubling that debt to $20T won't do anything but cause hyper inflation.

You can't "stimulate" yourself out of recession nor borrow yourself out of debt. The 1930's proved that. And even considering WWII spending, we were in a much better position before and after in terms of debt control and within a few years after WWII, national debt after a percentage of GDP was cut sharply. Obama has ZERO plan to cut spending, NONE, and the CBO projects Obama to DOUBLE our national debt in just 10 years and ever INCREASING deficits. Yeah, he will double in just 10 years a debt that took 30 years to make.

What we had 2 or 3 years of surpluses under a Republican controlled Congress with Clinton over the last 30 years.

The track record or fiscal irresponsibility of both parties is well established. You are a fool if you think for a second that Obama and the Pelosi politburo would actually cut spending, under ANY circumstance. They are the party of government engorgement and make fiscal liberal Bush look like a piker when it comes to deficits.

You want to see Obamanomics? Just look at California. We have been practicing hard core Obamanomics for about 10 years now with it's origins starting with the state employee unions gutting the Gann limits.

Obama will have America insolvent by the end of his first term if he doesn't knock off the pure pork spending 'cause the Chinese are close to done loaning us money for liberal largess.

You will NEVER have fiscal responsibility when you have a single party controlling the legislature and executive branch, Dem or Rep. Only when you have opposition will have have any remote chance of restrained spending.

We NEED government gridlock.
--
POKE 65495,1


Noah Vail
Son made my Avatar
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join:2004-12-10
SouthAmerica
kudos:3
Reviews:
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1 recommendation

reply to sonicmerlin
said by sonicmerlin:

Republicans by and large are biased, selfish rednecks or rich jerks who care only about doing away with government control just enough to let them abuse the populace to make even more money.
Hey, look everybody. Mainstream media talking points, regurgitated and parroted in easy to swallow sound bytes.

I wasn't even aware Chris Matthews was a member of DSLR.

said by sonicmerlin:

The fact is our entire quality of life would be different had a Democrat been elected instead of Bush, who basically trashed our national economy
A democrat has been elected. Seeing how he is continuing Bush policies on the issues that will impact us the longest, I'm not seeing a whole lot of that difference.

said by sonicmerlin:

and alienated the US with all its foreign allies.
Can you name any competent foreign ruler in history that had America's interests ahead of it's own countries interests?
Which foreign ruler would you give a greater influence over US Policy?

NV
--
In my perfect religion, a giant hole appears and sucks up all the lousy people.
I call it the Crapture.