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wifi4milez
Big Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace

join:2004-08-07
New York, NY

Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence

said by SLD:

Such Republican political talking points. Keep in mind that Corporate = profit -> worse than waste because they take as much extras as they can at your expense.
So do you mean to imply that companies should give away their goods/services for free??
--
D-Day; If you can read this thank a soldier
-The United States of America-


SLD
Premium
join:2002-04-17
San Francisco, CA

Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence

No, I'm just pointing out that when someone claims that Gov't is just plain wasteful, the other option is to hire a company to do the same job. When the Gov't does it, there may be waste, but not necessarily. When a company does it, much more cost will be extracted from the citizens because a profit *must* be earned. And typically, gov't waste is a pittance compared to corporate profits earned on our backs. This is particularly inherent is gov't backed monopolies like communications.
jjeffeory

join:2002-12-04
USA

Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence

When the gov't does it, there is ALWAYS waste.

footballdude
Premium
join:2002-08-13
Imperial, MO
said by SLD:

typically, gov't waste is a pittance compared to corporate profits earned on our backs.
I read that statement in utter disbelief. You actually mean that? Has any corporation EVER wasted even half as much money as the recent stimulus package?

There's no doubt that many (if not most) corporations are run by greedy people that would sell everything good and wholesome for a buck. There's also no doubt that many (if not most) politicians - especially at the federal level - are greedy people looking out solely for their own careers and back pockets who will sanction absolutely anything that's politically expedient, regardless of how badly people get hurt.

I think you have some serious blinders on.
--
It's a trick. Get an axe. - Ash

lakerfan82

join:2009-01-30
Corona, CA

Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence

footballdude See Profile
There's no doubt that many (if not most) corporations are run by greedy people that would sell everything good and wholesome for a buck. There's also no doubt that many (if not most) politicians - especially at the federal level - are greedy people looking out solely for their own careers and back pockets who will sanction absolutely anything that's politically expedient, regardless of how badly people get hurt.
Isn't that the truth...its as if people believe that corporations have a monopoly on greed. The same types of greedy people running the corporations are also running the government. Corps at least have competition and shareholders to keep themselves in check. The gov't? There's no competition to keep the gov't in check, they can tax all they want and waste all they want. No one is going to run the gov't out of business. I guess technically the gov't answers to the voters, but when voters only have two choices, there's not much accountability...

SLD
Premium
join:2002-04-17
San Francisco, CA
I never said that corporations waste much. I said they reap much larger profits when possible than the gov't will waste.

lakerfan82

join:2009-01-30
Corona, CA

Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence

said by SLD:

I never said that corporations waste much. I said they reap much larger profits when possible than the gov't will waste.
Thats simply not true as many on this forum have already shown. Furthermore, how much profit a company makes is frankly none of your concern (this is a free country, is it not?). If you think Exxon makes too much money, no one is stopping you from buying your gas at Shell. Its really that simple.

SLD
Premium
join:2002-04-17
San Francisco, CA

Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence

Nobody has "shown" anything. And if you read my argument, it is simply that the gov't can provide services at lower cost to its citizens than a private corporation can because there is no profit to consider. Plain and simple. If you "guys" want to make more of it than that, then have fun, but I'm tired of arguing points that others are fabricating and claiming that I wrote such.

lakerfan82

join:2009-01-30
Corona, CA

Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence

Your argument is based solely on the "Theory" that since the government has no profit incentive, it can produce goods at a lower price than a profit driven private business. In "theory" that seems reasonable until you realize that since the government has no competition, it also has no "incentive" to produce ever MORE efficiently. REALITY proves this.

SLD
Premium
join:2002-04-17
San Francisco, CA

Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence

And reality also proves that free markets don't work the way you claim either.

Bit00
Premium
join:2009-02-19
00000

1 edit
said by SLD:

And typically, gov't waste is a pittance compared to corporate profits earned on our backs.
Total government liabilities now exceed $63,000,000,000,000.00, that is over $500,000.00 per household. National yearly deficit has quadrupled in just 1 year to $1,800,000,000,000.00. The CBO projects that our national debt will DOUBLE in just the next decade to $20,000,000,000,000.00. Servicing that debt alone will cost $1,000,000,000,000.00 a year.

Don't even think of comparing corporate profit which is EARNED as a productive element of society to the level of government waste that we are seeing and have seen over the last 30 years and particularly over the last 8-9.
--
POKE 65495,1
sonicmerlin

join:2009-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:1

Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence

Our national budget is in such debt precisely because the government has to fix the horrible situation created by the completely irresponsible deregulation of various industries by the Bush administration.

If you knew anything about Keynesian economics you would understand why the government has to pass these stimulus funds to jolt our economy out of the gutter.

On the flip side, once the economy recovers Democrats are much more likely than Republicans to be fiscally responsible.

Even if corporate profit is "earned" (cough monopolies cough), all that profit is essentially a DRAIN on our economy. The money isn't spent. It simply goes into offshore bank accounts where it becomes some sort of rainy day fund for the corporation, or pads rich people's coffers. Every dollar that the government spends actually goes back into the economy, even creating jobs and the like.

The most efficient scenario are for little government interference while corporations make zero profit overall. However, history has shown time and time again that this never happens. When the government lets rich people run amok, they abuse their power.

Bit00
Premium
join:2009-02-19
00000

4 edits

Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence

Wrong, the government debt was $10,000,000,000,000.00 LONG before there was any hint of a recession and both Republican and Democratic Congresses contributed hugely to it every year. Recession or not, Obama and the Pelosi politburo had their agenda to spend hundreds of billions, he said as much during the campaign, long before the state of the economy reached what it did around the time of the election.

And doubling that debt to $20T won't do anything but cause hyper inflation.

You can't "stimulate" yourself out of recession nor borrow yourself out of debt. The 1930's proved that. And even considering WWII spending, we were in a much better position before and after in terms of debt control and within a few years after WWII, national debt after a percentage of GDP was cut sharply. Obama has ZERO plan to cut spending, NONE, and the CBO projects Obama to DOUBLE our national debt in just 10 years and ever INCREASING deficits. Yeah, he will double in just 10 years a debt that took 30 years to make.

What we had 2 or 3 years of surpluses under a Republican controlled Congress with Clinton over the last 30 years.

The track record or fiscal irresponsibility of both parties is well established. You are a fool if you think for a second that Obama and the Pelosi politburo would actually cut spending, under ANY circumstance. They are the party of government engorgement and make fiscal liberal Bush look like a piker when it comes to deficits.

You want to see Obamanomics? Just look at California. We have been practicing hard core Obamanomics for about 10 years now with it's origins starting with the state employee unions gutting the Gann limits.

Obama will have America insolvent by the end of his first term if he doesn't knock off the pure pork spending 'cause the Chinese are close to done loaning us money for liberal largess.

You will NEVER have fiscal responsibility when you have a single party controlling the legislature and executive branch, Dem or Rep. Only when you have opposition will have have any remote chance of restrained spending.

We NEED government gridlock.
--
POKE 65495,1

SLD
Premium
join:2002-04-17
San Francisco, CA
Did I imply that?

wifi4milez
Big Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace

join:2004-08-07
New York, NY

Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence

said by SLD:

Did I imply that?
Yes.

said by SLD:

Keep in mind that Corporate = profit -> worse than waste because they take as much extras as they can at your expense.
You clearly stated that a company making a profit is worse than government waste, your words not mine....
--
D-Day; If you can read this thank a soldier
-The United States of America-


SLD
Premium
join:2002-04-17
San Francisco, CA

1 edit

Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence

But I didn't say that companies should give away their goods/services for free? Did I?
It is worse for the citizen because they are paying more for the same thing. But companies have a right to earn a profit. If I can get health care as an option from the gov't for less because no profit, I'll appreciate that option.

wifi4milez
Big Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace

join:2004-08-07
New York, NY

Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence

said by SLD:

But I didn't say that companies should give away their goods/services for free?
You very clearly stated that making a profit is worse than government waste. Hence, you are saying that a company making no profit is good. A company making no profit (a non-profit if you will) is essentially giving its goods/services away for free after they have covered their own expenses. The economy couldnt exist if every company was non-profit, so your argument is fundamentally flawed.

said by SLD:

It is worse for the citizen because they are paying more for the same thing.
How do you figure that? The money needs to come from somewhere. If you arent paying for it directly it is financed by taxes. Given how badly the government manages these programs, the end result is you will pay more that you would have for an inferior product/service.

said by SLD:

But companies have a right to earn a profit. If I can get health care as an option from the gov't for less because no profit, I'll appreciate that option.
You arent really getting it for less. The money for health care still needs to come from someplace, so the gub'ment will need to raise taxes to cover the difference.
--
D-Day; If you can read this thank a soldier
-The United States of America-


Bit00
Premium
join:2009-02-19
00000

Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence

I love people who expect other people and companies to work for free while they themselves gladly tax a paycheck.
--
POKE 65495,1

SLD
Premium
join:2002-04-17
San Francisco, CA
Hey, one thing can be better or worse than another, but rating the value doesn't invalidate the service. You insist on stating that I said that services should be given away - this was never said or implied. It's a stupid idea anyway.

SLD
Premium
join:2002-04-17
San Francisco, CA

2 edits
said by wifi4milez :

You arent really getting it for less. The money for health care still needs to come from someplace, so the gub'ment will need to raise taxes to cover the difference.
Sure, but since no profit needs to be earned on the gov't insurance, the cost will be much lower to the citizen,or they'll get more for their money.

wifi4milez
Big Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace

join:2004-08-07
New York, NY

1 recommendation

Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence

said by SLD:

Sure, but since no profit needs to be earned on the gov't insurance, the cost will be much lower to the citizen,or they'll get more for their money.
Thats a total fallacy. Unlike a "regular" company that needs to make a profit in order to survive, the government doesnt have that restriction. They will (and have!) run the program into the ground and simply raise taxes to cover their inability to manage it properly.

Look at any gov run institution if you dont believe me. Since nobody is held to a standard (since they arent out to make a profit right?), it foments a culture of laziness. Take the DMV for example, those people are total bums and literally dont care about anything other than stamping their time cards. Now take those same "overly qualified " morons and simply place them in the back office that controls nationalized health care. Is THAT really your idea of how things should be??
--
D-Day; If you can read this thank a soldier
-The United States of America-


NetAdmin1
CCNA

join:2008-05-22

Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence

said by wifi4milez:

Take the DMV for example, those people are total bums and literally dont care about anything other than stamping their time cards.
Strange, I see that in the private sector all over the place too.
--
"This is a bus. You know how big a bus is?"

Bit00
Premium
join:2009-02-19
00000

Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence

Nothing like the DMV, at least the CA DMV.
--
POKE 65495,1

wifi4milez
Big Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace

join:2004-08-07
New York, NY
said by NetAdmin1:

said by wifi4milez:

Take the DMV for example, those people are total bums and literally dont care about anything other than stamping their time cards.
Strange, I see that in the private sector all over the place too.
Of course, except that firing those people (in the private sector) doesnt require an act of God in most cases. The inherent laziness is what makes all gov run institutions dysfunctional.
--
D-Day; If you can read this thank a soldier
-The United States of America-


NetAdmin1
CCNA

join:2008-05-22

Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence

said by wifi4milez:

Of course, except that firing those people (in the private sector) doesnt require an act of God in most cases. The inherent laziness is what makes all gov run institutions dysfunctional.
Two words... Union shop.
--
"This is a bus. You know how big a bus is?"

wifi4milez
Big Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace

join:2004-08-07
New York, NY

Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence

said by NetAdmin1:

said by wifi4milez:

Of course, except that firing those people (in the private sector) doesnt require an act of God in most cases. The inherent laziness is what makes all gov run institutions dysfunctional.
Two words... Union shop.
I agree completely, thats why I said "in most cases". In fact, I would say that many union shops are almost as dysfunctional as government run shops, and the laziness is just as prevalent there. The only real difference is that if enough people are lazy in a company (union or not), the company will cease to make money and will go out of business. The same cant be said about a government organization like the DMV; they will just keep dumping our money into it like theres no tomorrow.
--
D-Day; If you can read this thank a soldier
-The United States of America-


lakerfan82

join:2009-01-30
Corona, CA

2 recommendations

said by NetAdmin1:

said by wifi4milez:

Take the DMV for example, those people are total bums and literally dont care about anything other than stamping their time cards.
Strange, I see that in the private sector all over the place too.
The thing is, if there's "waste" in the private sector, its not your problem. If you don't like the service, you don't have to continue as their customer. Corps at least have incentive not to waste to keep you as a customer and to stay in business. On the other hand, when there is gov't waste, it is your problem for 2 reasons. First, the DMV is your ONLY source of service, you can't go anywhere else. Second, your hard earned tax dollars are paying for their employees to be apathetic bums.

wifi4milez
Big Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace

join:2004-08-07
New York, NY

Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence

said by lakerfan82:

said by NetAdmin1:

said by wifi4milez:

Take the DMV for example, those people are total bums and literally dont care about anything other than stamping their time cards.
Strange, I see that in the private sector all over the place too.
The thing is, if there's "waste" in the private sector, its not your problem. If you don't like the service, you don't have to continue as their customer. Corps at least have incentive not to waste to keep you as a customer and to stay in business. On the other hand, when there is gov't waste, it is your problem for 2 reasons. First, the DMV is your ONLY source of service, you can't go anywhere else. Second, your hard earned tax dollars are paying for their employees to be apathetic bums.
Very well said!
--
D-Day; If you can read this thank a soldier
-The United States of America-


NetAdmin1
CCNA

join:2008-05-22
said by lakerfan82:

said by NetAdmin1:

said by wifi4milez:

Take the DMV for example, those people are total bums and literally dont care about anything other than stamping their time cards.
Strange, I see that in the private sector all over the place too.
The thing is, if there's "waste" in the private sector, its not your problem.
Ok, but that doesn't change my point. People to talk about corporations like they are the paragons of efficiency. In many cases, that's just not the case. Look at the whole concept of middle management. I'm of the opinion that the only reason people don't complain about the waste in business they way they complain about the waste in government is because business can manage to eek out a meager profit.
--
"This is a bus. You know how big a bus is?"

Bit00
Premium
join:2009-02-19
00000

1 edit

Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence

I agree and your point can not be disputed. We need only look at GM to verify what you say in true. There are certainly Corporations who can waste money hand over fist.
--
POKE 65495,1

lakerfan82

join:2009-01-30
Corona, CA

1 edit

1 recommendation

said by NetAdmin1:

Ok, but that doesn't change my point. People to talk about corporations like they are the paragons of efficiency. In many cases, that's just not the case.
In "many" cases, that may be the case, but as a general rule, the private sector is MUCH more efficient than the government, and this is because they are accountable to both their customers and their share holders. Corporations that do not have a lot of competition are typically the least efficient, and these may be some of the companies you are referring to.

said by NetAdmin1:

I'm of the opinion that the only reason people don't complain about the waste in business they way they complain about the waste in government is because business can manage to eek out a meager profit.
I would venture to guess that most people complain about the waste in government because its THEIR money being wasted. If a corp is wasting money, its not their problem (unless the gov't gives that corp their money in a bailout).

Furthermore, apparently even a "meager" profit is too much profit for some of the clowns on this forum.

[edit: for grammar]

NetAdmin1
CCNA

join:2008-05-22

Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence

said by lakerfan82:

If a corp is wasting money, its not their problem (unless the gov't gives that corp their money in a bailout).
If you do business with them, it is your problem. Difference between government and business is that with government, you know your money is being wasted; business has a nice set of financial tricks that are perfectly legal to hide that waste.
--
"This is a bus. You know how big a bus is?"

••••••••
lesopp

join:2001-06-27
Land O Lakes, FL
Dude, give up already! Saying one thing and meaning something else only works for Obama.

SLD
Premium
join:2002-04-17
San Francisco, CA

1 edit

Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence

I'm truly shocked by the number of ignorant or stupid people comments in these forums.