http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22535678 en Sat, 11 Feb 2012 16:49:13 EDT Sat, 11 Feb 2012 16:49:13 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22726745
You must be the fellow that has been playing phone tag with me this week.

It did work, so far. We are having a terrible time with QRM on the high end of the 900 MHz ISM spectrum but everything else has been behaving well and looks to be functional.

The QRM we are seeing is definately not at or on the tower so we are still trying to figure out what is causing it as it kills one of our sectors.

What would I do differently? At this point nothing, really. If we start having trouble with maintaining ethernet sync because we get a little oxidation on ports then I'll regret not having sprayed them down with something before the climbers went up.

Feel free to call me at the office or if you need my cell mail me at micers amphersand kaballero dot com.

Have a nice weekend.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22726745 Fri, 17 Jul 2009 21:06:59 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22711896 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22711896 Wed, 15 Jul 2009 12:46:31 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22711755
Did you ever figure out a solution? We are having trouble over here in California trying to do the same thing. There are alot of great FM tower locations but the interference or harmonics is killing our access points/CPE's. Even if they do power up...communicating with them is not an option. :(

www.digitalpath.net]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22711755 Wed, 15 Jul 2009 12:21:25 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22588473 said by AMD Phreak:

And the result is?????
Management decided they were better engineers than the engineers and the bean counters won.

We did it without conduit. We used good burial rated cable with a good ground at the top and bottom of each run.

Everything is up and running fine and we are seeing very little interference or problems with the Cat-5.

Things have been up for 5 days now. No ports have hung and no links have been knocked off line.

Thanks for all the help guys. I hate it when the bean counters get lucky because it makes the engineers look like they don't know what they are doing and then the next time the bean counters are even less likely to do things correctly.

:)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22588473 Sun, 21 Jun 2009 20:38:16 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22557731 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22557731 Tue, 16 Jun 2009 00:24:24 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22539526
Then you still have to pull the wire and terminate, and mount equipment....

I like the fiber idea with separate power supply options.

If you do decide to run conduit I would use steel bands to secure it down to the tower. You'll need to get the appropriate tooling for banding but it is pretty much guaranteed to never fail, not to mention you'll have a nice tight connection to the tower.

I am not sure about your time frame for this project. It will require more thought. :)

How about RF PPE for your guys to wear? You'd have to calculate the minimum approach distance for them to ensure they don't get too close to the FM array but it might even be possible to do the job with the transmitter operating at a reduced power level, but don't quote me because I don't work around broadcast regularly and when I do I lock-out-tag-out the transmitter power feed.
--
"No job is so important, and no service is so urgent that we cannot take the time to perform our work safely."
-- AT&T, Your World, Destroyed.
--Safety One Tower Rescue Certified
--LLigetfa:"Wimax is like teenage sex. Everyone talks about doing it."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22539526 Fri, 12 Jun 2009 10:24:11 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22538993
EDIT:
Since your running DC power anyway, you might as well add a media converter inside the CMM case and power it as well. This way you can pull fiber and not deal with the long ethernet run. Amazingly, fiber.com is great and cheap, Their armored outdoor fiber rocks. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22538993 Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:36:19 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22538974
Have EVERYTHING ready, I.E. all of the bolts for the mounts taped fast to the back of the radios, taped to the back of the sectors, 3 foot jumpers attached to the sectors and weatherproofed at that end etc. ANY process that can be done ahead of time?, DO IT!.

Make any Ethernet jumpers ahead of time too. Attach them to the back of the radios, plug them in, test them and put those jack ass Tranzeo covers on and the connectors and tape it all together so all the tower tech has to do is cut or unravel the tape.

You need to number every radio and write the IP address on the back in big letters and numbers (When you are finished, and everything is working, it takes hem 2 seconds to cover it up with magic marker for security reasons). Any part, bracket, jumper etc. needs to be labeled with the associated number that corresponds to the radio it is being used for. This avoids confusion for anyone who touches the radio in question that didn't originally configure it on the bench. This also helps the tower techs when they are asked which radio it is they are working on. Instead of yelling up the tower or getting on the 2 ways 1000 times, all they have to do is look at the radio and give you an answer.

Michael, I know you already know this one too, but I will say it again, just to make myself feel better. If it doesn't work on the ground, it will NOT work on the tower. The entire configuration should be plugged in and tested with the very same cables you intend to use on the tower before you haul it up. Good luck, and God speed my friend.

Oh yea, try not to get excited and yell "Lets GO, Lets GO", as we all know that this is when mistakes are made and things go wrong quickly. I know that I have a tendency to get like this, and I have to fight the internal forces that be. :D
--
»www.wavecrazy.net
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22538974 Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:32:27 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22538762
Zip tie the cables to the cable management ladder or someplace within easy reach of where you climb the tower. Cut the ends off and wrap them in outdoor electrical tape. CUT the end of the tape off, don't pull it as it will cause it to unravel over time.

Only run two wires up the tower if you can. One 24V power and one Cat5. Anyone know how many Tranzeos you can daisy chain off a direct 24V power supply? Connect your Canopy's to a CMM and plug your Tranzeo ethernet into it and connect the Tranzeo PoE to the CMM's power supply in the same box.

If you can daisy chain all six in a row, that will reduce the number of lines you are running back to the CMM.

With four people climbing, I think you could knock this out in four hours depending on the size of your mounts. If you plan on mounting three, 120 degree 900 MHz sectors with 2ft standoffs, you'll need a really experienced crew to get this done in four hours.
--
Comtrain Certified Tower Climber]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22538762 Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:19:39 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22538559
Although no EE, (economist) - here is what I would do:

As for the rather extensive lenghth of cat5e required to do a power run, I'd negate the cat 5 all together and instead go with a "glass" solution whilst sending the power up via its own dedicated line.

...Get the required length of shielded optical data line (weather resistant to be more circa), if space permits you can place a switch at the top with a built in media converter that would span out into however much radios you need. (This would be perfect for scalability!!) and voila! ...

As for the power, im not sure if the named radios use 48v or 12v but im assuming somewhere within the range... you can merely use voltage converters for this task (personally I would not send no less than 77v dc up there) This too having its own line. I suppose someone else can aid in stating the appropriate gauge.

Truly, with that much power being radiated; the entire tower is essentially serving as an element and by using straight Ethernet runs "up the way" your more than likely BOUND to incur problems pushing anything over 10 megs half duplex - for this reason I shall stress the fiber word again

Heh, you'd be only pulling TWO cables up there as opposed to what you would otherwise.

Im pretty certain you'd be able to find a decent but reasonable sized enclosure that will fit all of the aforesaid.

Here is a MUST read, if you havent already --- talks EXACTLY about what you'd face by opting for standard ethernet, whether it be outdoor rated or otherwise.

»www.isp-planet.com/fixed_wireles···+fm.html

Just my $0.02! ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22538559 Fri, 12 Jun 2009 04:02:10 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22538402
LFMC on the verticals to the tower, heavywall RMC up (or well supported LFMC). Run power up inside the the conduit with MC cable. Pull your Cats in last. Lube it up good on the ground and use a sheave to draw the muletape up the pipe from a ground man. (nobody on the tower should be pulling cable)
--
Looks like Reverend Wright got his wish - God Damn America.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22538402 Fri, 12 Jun 2009 02:07:20 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22537549
b]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22537549 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 22:08:48 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22537421
Wow.

hope you got a crew.!

I plan 4 hours to install just 1/2 a backhaul., but thats only 2 of us.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22537421 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:46:36 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22537211 Waveguide Cushions
»www.tessco.com/products/displayH···ntPage=1

Angle Adapters
»www.tessco.com/products/displayP···ntPage=1

Standoff kits and round member adapters
»www.tessco.com/products/headerPr···hField=1

1/4" or 3/8" ground kit
»www.tessco.com/products/displayP···ntPage=1

Penetrox A13
»www.tessco.com/products/displayP···ntPage=1

Harger CU Joint Compound
»www.tessco.com/products/displayP···ntPage=1

Cold Galv spray paint
»www.tessco.com/products/displayP···ntPage=1

If you are bonding the ground kit to the tower, depending on the ground system existing, you should bond to the buss bar. If not, bond to the tower using angle adapters if flat angle iron style tower, or standoff and round member adapters.

CU to CU joints should be coated lightly in CU joint compound for corrosion resistance. Coat the stainless steel joint threads with a touch of Penetrox for antiseize. I use a very light coat of Penetrox between the stainless hardware and the tower itself to ensure clean oxidation free contact. If you scrape paint or damage the galvanization any, several light coats of cold galv spray should fix it.

I also use CU joint compound between buss bar and ground lug. All bolts, nuts, and washers used should be stainless steel.

--
"No job is so important, and no service is so urgent that we cannot take the time to perform our work safely."
-- AT&T, Your World, Destroyed.
--Safety One Tower Rescue Certified
--LLigetfa:"Wimax is like teenage sex. Everyone talks about doing it."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22537211 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:11:31 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22537178 www.tek.com/Measurement/App_Note···ence.pdf

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermodulation

»www.rfcafe.com/references/electrical/pim.htm

»www.ieee.li/pdf/essay/passive_imd.pdf

Scraps of metal and things of the sort simply laying around the site can even cause intermod issues.

I'm sure there are more references, so search around.
--
"No job is so important, and no service is so urgent that we cannot take the time to perform our work safely."
-- AT&T, Your World, Destroyed.
--Safety One Tower Rescue Certified
--LLigetfa:"Wimax is like teenage sex. Everyone talks about doing it."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22537178 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:04:28 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22537092
But I'm no EE and I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn Express either ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22537092 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:45:36 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22537090 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22537090 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:45:19 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22537034 said by AMD Phreak:

:)

Have the ee look it up on the web.... a lotof info can be had on the subject from ham radio sites.

Did you need a workup of parts for cable support?
I did not find much on the web. I think we will be ok on parts lists but if you have links, we could use those.

Thanks
Mike]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22537034 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:34:48 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22537031
Have the ee look it up on the web.... a lotof info can be had on the subject from ham radio sites.

Did you need a workup of parts for cable support?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22537031 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:33:49 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22537021 said by AMD Phreak:

Meh.....

I think running bbdge with appropriate heliax ground kits would suffice. I'd put kits top, mid, bottom, and shelter entrance.

Wrapping in foil tape in my mind screams intermod problems.
Bud,

I am a computer scientist, not an EE but I have an EE reading the thread so you just keep it coming.

We absolutely HAVE to make this work Monday evening. Our network is centered on three water towers we have been required to rip the guts out of the network by July 1.

This one means we save our network. So just keep it coming folks.

Thanks

Mike]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22537021 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:31:35 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22536983
I think running bbdge with appropriate heliax ground kits would suffice. I'd put kits top, mid, bottom, and shelter entrance.

Wrapping in foil tape in my mind screams intermod problems.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22536983 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:25:25 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22536929
I want to run this past you guys though.

We have decided to individually ground each CAT-5 shield at top and bottom. Then individually wrap each CAT-5 in aluminum sticky tape (used for air conditioning systems) from the end of the run to the bundle and then wrap the entire bundle in that same aluminum tape. Top to bottom as it were. Then we will run the bundle inside the tower strapped to a leg and grounded every few feet directly to the tower leg with a wrap of that same Aluminum tape.

Does that make any sense to you guys?

If you would change it, how would you change it.

Again thanks so much.

-m-]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22536929 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:16:17 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22536634
You can run the wire up the tower in the cable management ladder if permitted. Get some snap ins and use waveguide cushions for cable support. Likewise you can use the waveguide cushions and clamps to attach to a round tower leg or tubular type tower.

Worse case you have to just directly ziptie with heavy duty zip ties, the cable right to the tower. If you let me know the tower type and any existing cable support structures you may have access to I can whip you up a parts list.

I would also have a decent sized crew since you have a limited amount of time.... perhaps 6 guys... four top hands two ground hands and a crew boss.
--
"No job is so important, and no service is so urgent that we cannot take the time to perform our work safely."
-- AT&T, Your World, Destroyed.
--Safety One Tower Rescue Certified
--LLigetfa:"Wimax is like teenage sex. Everyone talks about doing it."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22536634 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 19:12:05 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22536615 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22536615 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 19:08:58 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22536575 »www.superioressex.com/communicat···x?id=324
...
I would run a 2" thick wall conduit all the way up and then run BBDGE cable inside of that. Ground the cable at the bottom and float the top. No idea how you plan on doing that in four hours.

If you want to try running it without the conduit, add a ground clamp every 50' or so just like you would with LMR. Off of the top of my head, the 1/4" sureflex ground clamps should work with this cable.

We stay off of towers for the most part so I am not sure how one would secure the cable without conduit. How do tower guys deal with cat5 wire management? ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22536575 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 19:00:50 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22536167
That said, it's been done many times before. Just make sure the grounding is perfect, shielded cables all the way, filters on the radios if you can...

I'm sure you'll be able to do it, if there's someone out there who can, it'll be you :)
--
Justin - DSLR resident grouch and Mr Negativity
TSI Fanboy - "Dontchya wish your 'net was hot like mine! Ohhh Dontchya!"
Have a nice day!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22536167 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:50:35 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22535678
We are installing at 260' and are running POE to the radios from the ground.

Have to have this done in 4 hours on Monday evening. We get 4 more hours on Tuesday evening to fix it if it is still broke.

My concerns are the issues with induced currents in the Cat-5. Want you electrical engineers with experience in this arena to tell me what you would do.

Not installing is NOT an option so we don't need to discuss that.

Thanks in advance.

-m-]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Need-some-advice-from-you-EE-types-22535678 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:36:47 EDT