Whose baby is that? Whats your angle? Ill buy that! in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r22536708 en Wed, 10 Feb 2010 02:34:04 EDT Wed, 10 Feb 2010 02:34:04 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22544047 SLD : [Yawn!]
Please stop acting like an #$%$ and go to bed (and possibly a life). I honestly can't read past a skimming over of your crap and it doen't seem to be worthy to read.
BTW, you are still ignoring my basic logical argument and throwing the kitchen sink of anything besides the point. Your stupid graph has nothing to do with it.
BTW, I blocked your boyfriend because he was harrassing me with endless posts about nothing. I'll block you now as well, so don't waste your time - I won't see it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22544047 Sat, 13 Jun 2009 00:12:20 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22542622 SLD : Wow...not only going off the deep end here, but putting words in my mouth? "SoundsLikeCarterStClai"? Nice!
At least we know you're a fringie now.
Happen to get paid by the pharmicutical industry to spread your verbal nauseum?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22542622 Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:53:36 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22540213 mrkevin : Democrats by and large are biased, emotional, and think if we just sit around in a circle singing 'give peace a chance' that the world will follow suit. Sorry...it won't Evil always repays goodness with evil.
And they want to tax me to death (because I work) and give it to the LAZY, LOOSERS, who sit around collecting welfare.

You think Bush was bad...wait until Obama is done. You cannot fix ANY problem just by throwing (our taxes) money at it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22540213 Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:08:05 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22537584 SLD : And reality also proves that free markets don't work the way you claim either.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22537584 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 22:15:23 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22537537 NetAdmin :
said by Big Pete 82 See Profile :

Tell me how any of this would have been possible if 50% of the mortgages weren't backed up by Fannie and Freddie? It would have been much harder to rate these crappy debts and bonds as AAA because the buyers would have looked at them a lot closer if it wasn't assumed these mortgages were backed by the full faith of the US Government. You have to realize what made it POSSIBLE to even sell them in the first place.
You underestimate the power of the folks in the American financial system if you think this mess required Fannie and Freddie. Additionally, neither Fannie or Freddie loans are backed by the full faith of the US Government. That is a pervasive and erroneous myth. The only collateral those companies have to back the loan is the property that is mortgaged. Let's get our facts straight.

Sounds like you need to read up on the CRA. Like I said, it was so easy to pass on the risk, it didn't even matter how closely they monitored the loans.
I'm familiar with the CRA. Two facts you missed about the CRA and the subprime mess - one, the CRA was written on the assumption that lenders and borrowers would act in a financially sound manner and, two, major players in the subprime mess, companies like Quick Loan, weren't even regulated by the CRA.

If you honestly believe that even more government control over the mortgages was going to change anything that happened last year, you are kidding yourself.
Nowhere did I say that, now did I?

Likewise, I am done with the argument; I'm not going to debate the same agenda-driven talking points you counter with over and over again.
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"This is a bus. You know how big a bus is?"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22537537 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 22:06:22 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22537209 Big Pete 82 :
said by NetAdmin See Profile :

The problem of quality and quality perception had been a problem for a long time before the current financial problems sunk the company. Let's get our history straight. The waste came after the quality problems.
The waste was always there, it just became more apparent when the competition increased.

And in the recent years, that quality gap shrank.
And in the recent years, so did GMs profitability, meaning they had to sacrifice their own profitability to improve quality. They couldn't stop the waste because they were under contract with the unions.

Public schools exist because not everyone can afford private schools; private schools also don't typically turn a profit, hence the reason they constantly need fund raisers and donations. Social security is not just a retirement program and does things that 401ks don't do; social security also fills the gap for folks who don't make enough to save for retirement.
Private schools need fund raisers and donations to help defray the cost, but they still create choice, and that is why they are better and more efficiently run than public schools. Social security was meant to be a retirement fund, but continued waste allowed it to be raided for other things like welfare, etc.

Talk about only having part of the story. Familiarize yourself with things call CDOs and CDSs. Learn about how the ratings agencies were rating junk quality bonds and debts as AAA quality investments by the virtue that a small percentage of the debt was actually AAA. Read up on how the rating processes made little sense even to the folks doing the ratings sometimes. Do some research on the cozy relationship between investment originators and the rating agencies.

Tell me how any of this would have been possible if 50% of the mortgages weren't backed up by Fannie and Freddie? It would have been much harder to rate these crappy debts and bonds as AAA because the buyers would have looked at them a lot closer if it wasn't assumed these mortgages were backed by the full faith of the US Government. You have to realize what made it POSSIBLE to even sell them in the first place. The "cozy" relationships you speak of sounds an awful lot like the cozy relationships between lobbyists and politicians.

As well, nice how you ignore the role of private industry in this whole mess and focus solely on government. I guess you didn't pay attention the whole time companies were writing loans to folks when the banks knew borrower couldn't afford the loan; in other words, banks wrote loans know they would go into default! Did you miss the news several months ago about lenders failing to verify basic financial information, such as income and the amount of debt a person holds? I assume you also missed the exotic, non-conforming loan products that were coming out of places like Daniel Sadek's Quick Loan and how places like that mislead borrowers?
Sounds like you need to read up on the CRA. Like I said, it was so easy to pass on the risk, it didn't even matter how closely they monitored the loans.

If you honestly believe that legal financial trickery is nothing to be worried about, I am correct in my assumption that you aren't even close to being familiar enough with the topic to say that "far too much is made of" it.
If you honestly believe that even more government control over the mortgages was going to change anything that happened last year, you are kidding yourself. Corps don't have a monopoly on trickery, the government has plenty to go around. The difference is that corps have to answer to shareholders and customers and the government doesn't.

Anyway, I'm done with this argument, feel free to reply all you want but I'm off to the Laker game...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22537209 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:10:57 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22537045 NetAdmin :
said by Big Pete 82 See Profile :

There is no flawed logic.
Uhh huh.

Interesting that you bring up GM, because that company illustrates my argument perfectly. GM's waste most notably affected the QUALITY of their vehicles.
The problem of quality and quality perception had been a problem for a long time before the current financial problems sunk the company. Let's get our history straight. The waste came after the quality problems.

Comparably priced Toyotas and Hondas have gotten much higher quality marks for years.
And in the recent years, that quality gap shrank.

Government gets their hands into plenty of things they shouldn't be in that private enterprise ALREADY does. Public Schools, Social Security, on and on (Private: Private Schools, 401ks).
Public schools exist because not everyone can afford private schools; private schools also don't typically turn a profit, hence the reason they constantly need fund raisers and donations. Social security is not just a retirement program and does things that 401ks don't do; social security also fills the gap for folks who don't make enough to save for retirement.

As for "financial tricks", far too much is made of them. There is a difference between legal "tricks" and illegal activity. Those who partake in illegal activity almost inevitably get caught. Are their exceptions? Sure. Same as in the gov't. Not every corrupt politician gets caught. Enron is a perfect example of a company that got caught, which is why I brought it up. As for the mortgage debacle, what trickery was used? These banks legally sold their subprime mortgages (as well as the risk associated with them) to gov't backed agencies Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. The gov't allowed those two agencies to control over 50% of the mortgage market, so is it any surprise when all these subprime borrowers can't pay back their inflated mortgages that Fannie and Freddie go broke and start this mess?
Yes, you have stated the obvious; yes there is a difference between legal and illegal. :huh: And every illegal financial trick was a legal one at one time. And the reason they become illegal is because those once legal financial tricks caused collateral damage, not even related to the shareholders and bondholders.

Talk about only having part of the story. Familiarize yourself with things call CDOs and CDSs. Learn about how the ratings agencies were rating junk quality bonds and debts as AAA quality investments by the virtue that a small percentage of the debt was actually AAA. Read up on how the rating processes made little sense even to the folks doing the ratings sometimes. Do some research on the cozy relationship between investment originators and the rating agencies.

As well, nice how you ignore the role of private industry in this whole mess and focus solely on government. I guess you didn't pay attention the whole time companies were writing loans to folks when the banks knew borrower couldn't afford the loan; in other words, banks wrote loans know they would go into default! Did you miss the news several months ago about lenders failing to verify basic financial information, such as income and the amount of debt a person holds? I assume you also missed the exotic, non-conforming loan products that were coming out of places like Daniel Sadek's Quick Loan and how places like that mislead borrowers?

If you honestly believe that legal financial trickery is nothing to be worried about, I am correct in my assumption that you aren't even close to being familiar enough with the topic to say that "far too much is made of" it.
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"This is a bus. You know how big a bus is?"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22537045 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:36:44 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22536868 Big Pete 82 : No one is changing the topic. The reason I don't care if a business "wastes" is because a) that waste will only affect their own profit (assuming they want to stay in business) b) I can so CHOOSE to go elsewhere if I think their waste is affecting the product (price or quality). With the gov't, that waste directly affects my pocketbook because a) they must steal from me in order to pay for their services b) I can't go elsewhere. There is no flawed logic.

Interesting that you bring up GM, because that company illustrates my argument perfectly. GM's waste most notably affected the QUALITY of their vehicles. Comparably priced Toyotas and Hondas have gotten much higher quality marks for years. I switched to Toyota as many others did. Where is GM now? They are bankrupt, and their waste did them in. People stopped buying their vehicles and they couldn't compete with the quality and price of Toyota and Honda.

Government gets their hands into plenty of things they shouldn't be in that private enterprise ALREADY does. Public Schools, Social Security, on and on (Private: Private Schools, 401ks). Right now the feds are talking about nationalized health care.

As for "financial tricks", far too much is made of them. There is a difference between legal "tricks" and illegal activity. Those who partake in illegal activity almost inevitably get caught. Are their exceptions? Sure. Same as in the gov't. Not every corrupt politician gets caught. Enron is a perfect example of a company that got caught, which is why I brought it up. As for the mortgage debacle, what trickery was used? These banks legally sold their subprime mortgages (as well as the risk associated with them) to gov't backed agencies Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. The gov't allowed those two agencies to control over 50% of the mortgage market, so is it any surprise when all these subprime borrowers can't pay back their inflated mortgages that Fannie and Freddie go broke and start this mess?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22536868 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:04:03 EDT Whose baby is that? Whats your angle? Ill buy that! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22536708 Noah Vail : Of course, this is from the old timey days; when Bush's proposed bailout was a modest $700Billion.

said by MSNBC :

The administration on Monday raised its deficit estimate for the year to $1.84 trillion, from the $1.75 trillion it estimated less than two months ago.
NV
--
In my perfect religion, a giant hole appears and sucks up all the lousy people.
I call it the Crapture.

That
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22536708 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 19:27:12 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22536643 NetAdmin :
said by Big Pete 82 See Profile :

You apparently don't understand the concept of CHOICE.
I actually do, so let's not change the topic of discussion and make it about choice.

Furthermore, I know that if a company has a significant amount of competition, I can be assured that my product was produced in the most efficient way possible. If it wasn't produced efficiently, it would cost more than the product 10 other companies are producing.
Really, you think a company with lots of competition but an inefficient business is going to cost more than their competitors? Two letters, GM. The company was like a drunken sailor on shore leave with money, yet it managed to keep its product line priced along with everyone else. What that basically boils down to is that for YEARS people overpaid for a product. When a majority of the cost of your product is not attributed to the cost of producing that product, that product's price is more than it should be.

However, any product the gov't "produces" must be purchased from the gov't because the gov't inherently has no competition. If I'm not satisfied by the product (ie dmv), tough shit. I can't take my money elsewhere and I can't stop the gov't from taking money out of my paycheck.
And the reason government is in that business is because private enterprise is smart enough to know if could never turn a profit doing the same thing. Government takes the work that needs to be done but the private sector won't touch.

Please enlighten me what "waste" was hidden using "financial tricks" with the mortgage derivatives debacle.


If you can a post where anyone said that waste was hidden using financial tricks in the mortgage derivatives mess, I'll give you a cookie. You said that "far too much is made of them", referring to financial tricks, however that just isn't true and the derivatives snafu proves your statement wrong. Financial alchemy doesn't receive enough attention.

How much is Enron stock worth right now?
Funny, you talk about how "far too much is made" of financial trickery and mention Enron in the same thread... Major hole in your logic there. If financial trickery really was not as big of a deal as you make it sound, Enron and the current mortgage debacle would be non-issues.

*I added -ity to majority. I got distracted while typing.
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"This is a bus. You know how big a bus is?"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22536643 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 19:14:17 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22536598 Big Pete 82 : Your argument is based solely on the "Theory" that since the government has no profit incentive, it can produce goods at a lower price than a profit driven private business. In "theory" that seems reasonable until you realize that since the government has no competition, it also has no "incentive" to produce ever MORE efficiently. REALITY proves this.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22536598 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 19:05:16 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22536574 Big Pete 82 : You apparently don't understand the concept of CHOICE. I'll pay whatever I think a product is WORTH. If I'm satisfied by the product there is NO PROBLEM. Furthermore, I know that if a company has a significant amount of competition, I can be assured that my product was produced in the most efficient way possible. If it wasn't produced efficiently, it would cost more than the product 10 other companies are producing. However, any product the gov't "produces" must be purchased from the gov't because the gov't inherently has no competition. If I'm not satisfied by the product (ie dmv), tough shit. I can't take my money elsewhere and I can't stop the gov't from taking money out of my paycheck.

Please enlighten me what "waste" was hidden using "financial tricks" with the mortgage derivatives debacle.

How much is Enron stock worth right now?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22536574 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 19:00:45 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22536512 wifi4milez :
said by NetAdmin See Profile :

said by wifi4milez See Profile :

Of course, except that firing those people (in the private sector) doesnt require an act of God in most cases. The inherent laziness is what makes all gov run institutions dysfunctional.
Two words... Union shop.
I agree completely, thats why I said "in most cases". In fact, I would say that many union shops are almost as dysfunctional as government run shops, and the laziness is just as prevalent there. The only real difference is that if enough people are lazy in a company (union or not), the company will cease to make money and will go out of business. The same cant be said about a government organization like the DMV; they will just keep dumping our money into it like theres no tomorrow.
--
D-Day; If you can read this thank a soldier
-The United States of America-
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22536512 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 18:51:49 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22536503 SLD : Nobody has "shown" anything. And if you read my argument, it is simply that the gov't can provide services at lower cost to its citizens than a private corporation can because there is no profit to consider. Plain and simple. If you "guys" want to make more of it than that, then have fun, but I'm tired of arguing points that others are fabricating and claiming that I wrote such.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22536503 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 18:50:14 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22536488 Bit : No, what I am saying is that there is no entity in this world, more bloated, more corrupt, more wasteful or more out of money than the Federal government. If there is an entity that shouldn't be pissing with our national broadband infrastructure, it's our beyond broken and easily bribed government.

Government wouldn't know the concept of clear goals if it bit it on the ass. It needs to be totally gutted and doing virtually NOTHING instead of trying to control everything.
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POKE 65495,1]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22536488 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 18:48:34 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22536466 NetAdmin :
said by Big Pete 82 See Profile :

Actually, if I'm happy with the services a company provides, there is no problem, they can waste all the money they want.
So you are okay paying more for something than it should cost because of waste within a company but aren't okay with waste in government? Flawless logic there.

If their waste ends up driving up the price of their product I'll happily look elsewhere, because I can. With gov't, you can't look elsewhere.
You assume that waste would drive the price of a good up. Not necessarily the case. The price could have always been based on inefficient business practices.

As for your comment on "financial tricks", far too much is made of them, and even the gov't uses plenty of them.
Too much is made of them? I guess you haven't been paying attention to the whole mortgage derivatives debacle, have you?

Any financial tricks companies use end up hurting their own shareholders, and they eventually have to answer to them at some point.
Once again, you assume they get caught.
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"This is a bus. You know how big a bus is?"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22536466 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 18:44:03 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22536400 Big Pete 82 :
said by NetAdmin See Profile :

said by Big Pete 82 See Profile :

If a corp is wasting money, its not their problem (unless the gov't gives that corp their money in a bailout).
If you do business with them, it is your problem. Difference between government and business is that with government, you know your money is being wasted; business has a nice set of financial tricks that are perfectly legal to hide that waste.
Actually, if I'm happy with the services a company provides, there is no problem, they can waste all the money they want. If their waste ends up driving up the price of their product I'll happily look elsewhere, because I can. With gov't, you can't look elsewhere.

As for your comment on "financial tricks", far too much is made of them, and even the gov't uses plenty of them. Any financial tricks companies use end up hurting their own shareholders, and they eventually have to answer to them at some point.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22536400 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 18:33:08 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22536367 dragonbait :
said by Bit See Profile :

And knowing what Exxon made anyone can appreciate the INSANE amount of money the government reaped from those operations despite the government not having done a damn thing for it.
Your statements seem to indicate that you believe the government should not be allowed to receive any revenues from Exxon’s activities because the government did not directly help Exxon.

The government may not have directly done anything for that money, but Exxon’s operations would be more difficult without the environment provided by the government in terms of national defense and transportation infrastructure among other things. Federal and state dollars are used to build the roads that allow for greater gasoline demand from Exxon and those same roads allow Exxon to deliver gasoline to each station.

Perhaps the government is receiving an excessive cut from Exxon’s activities; however, the language you have repeatedly used implies that the government should be receiving nothing. Maybe that is not your intended meaning.

I supposed the real question is what is the correct amount that the government should gain in benefit from Exxon’s operations?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22536367 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 18:25:05 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22536348 NetAdmin :
said by Big Pete 82 See Profile :

If a corp is wasting money, its not their problem (unless the gov't gives that corp their money in a bailout).
If you do business with them, it is your problem. Difference between government and business is that with government, you know your money is being wasted; business has a nice set of financial tricks that are perfectly legal to hide that waste.
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"This is a bus. You know how big a bus is?"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22536348 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 18:20:10 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22536307 Big Pete 82 :
said by SLD See Profile :

I never said that corporations waste much. I said they reap much larger profits when possible than the gov't will waste.
Thats simply not true as many on this forum have already shown. Furthermore, how much profit a company makes is frankly none of your concern (this is a free country, is it not?). If you think Exxon makes too much money, no one is stopping you from buying your gas at Shell. Its really that simple.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22536307 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 18:13:30 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22536267 Big Pete 82 :
said by NetAdmin See Profile :

Ok, but that doesn't change my point. People to talk about corporations like they are the paragons of efficiency. In many cases, that's just not the case.
In "many" cases, that may be the case, but as a general rule, the private sector is MUCH more efficient than the government, and this is because they are accountable to both their customers and their share holders. Corporations that do not have a lot of competition are typically the least efficient, and these may be some of the companies you are referring to.

said by NetAdmin See Profile :

I'm of the opinion that the only reason people don't complain about the waste in business they way they complain about the waste in government is because business can manage to eek out a meager profit.
I would venture to guess that most people complain about the waste in government because its THEIR money being wasted. If a corp is wasting money, its not their problem (unless the gov't gives that corp their money in a bailout).

Furthermore, apparently even a "meager" profit is too much profit for some of the clowns on this forum.

[edit: for grammar]]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22536267 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 18:06:41 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22536054 jwersan :
said by mod_wastrel See Profile :

Republican vs. Democrat = two sides of the same coin. Companies are in business to make money... duh. Our representatives are "supposed" to represent our interests--"our" as in "we the people". Of course, if they were ever to do that, I'm sure half the population would faint from the shock.
I know I would! :uhh:
--
RIAA/MPAA... Bite me!!!!
In constant search for intelligent life on Earth!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22536054 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:33:01 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22536007 Bit : I agree and your point can not be disputed. We need only look at GM to verify what you say in true. There are certainly Corporations who can waste money hand over fist.
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POKE 65495,1]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22536007 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:25:01 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535996 NetAdmin :
said by Big Pete 82 See Profile :

said by NetAdmin See Profile :

said by wifi4milez See Profile :

Take the DMV for example, those people are total bums and literally dont care about anything other than stamping their time cards.
Strange, I see that in the private sector all over the place too.
The thing is, if there's "waste" in the private sector, its not your problem.
Ok, but that doesn't change my point. People to talk about corporations like they are the paragons of efficiency. In many cases, that's just not the case. Look at the whole concept of middle management. I'm of the opinion that the only reason people don't complain about the waste in business they way they complain about the waste in government is because business can manage to eek out a meager profit.
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"This is a bus. You know how big a bus is?"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535996 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:23:57 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535971 SLD : I'm truly shocked by the number of ignorant or stupid people comments in these forums.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535971 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:20:24 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535957 NetAdmin :
said by wifi4milez See Profile :

Of course, except that firing those people (in the private sector) doesnt require an act of God in most cases. The inherent laziness is what makes all gov run institutions dysfunctional.
Two words... Union shop.
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"This is a bus. You know how big a bus is?"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535957 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:18:29 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535951 SLD : I never said that corporations waste much. I said they reap much larger profits when possible than the gov't will waste.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535951 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:17:35 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535897 Bit : According to your graph, gas sales are UP the first 3 months of 2009.

Jan 341,733.3
Feb 355,295.6
Mar 355,922.3

And as demand went down the first 3 months of the year gas was cheaper than the previous 3 months. And as demand picks back up, prices go back up.

Again, oil is sold on the FUTURES market. Market traders are anticipating FUTURE demand so even if current demand appears stagnant, buyers are speculating as to what demand would be 3 or 6 months down the road.

Also your post only refers to US gasoline sales. Gas is not the only oil based product and of course oil products are in demand all over the world to changes in US demand while influential are not the sole determining factor in barrel or refined products prices.

Oil, an international commodity traded in US dollars is also going up because of our fiscal policy. The excessive spending is causing the value of the dollar to tank. So even if oil as a "value" were to stay the same, the ever falling dollar doesn't buy as much, making the apparent price of oil go up. A sizable portion of the oil price runup in recent years has been attributed to the falling dollar as well as increased demand. Plus benchmark crude that we see quoted all the time is a specific grade from a specific location so other oil producers will have differing prices. You can have Texas crude cheap while Mid East oil is expensive and vice versa so you can see a cheap quoted barrel price on the news and think WTF, why is gas expensive?
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POKE 65495,1]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535897 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:09:57 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535673 Bit : No kidding. Obama I is just Bush III X 4 when it comes to deficit spending and government bailouts.
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POKE 65495,1]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535673 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:35:30 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535672 Noah Vail :
said by sonicmerlin See Profile :

Republicans by and large are biased, selfish rednecks or rich jerks who care only about doing away with government control just enough to let them abuse the populace to make even more money.
Hey, look everybody. Mainstream media talking points, regurgitated and parroted in easy to swallow sound bytes.

I wasn't even aware Chris Matthews was a member of DSLR.

said by sonicmerlin See Profile :

The fact is our entire quality of life would be different had a Democrat been elected instead of Bush, who basically trashed our national economy
A democrat has been elected. Seeing how he is continuing Bush policies on the issues that will impact us the longest, I'm not seeing a whole lot of that difference.

said by sonicmerlin See Profile :

and alienated the US with all its foreign allies.
Can you name any competent foreign ruler in history that had America's interests ahead of it's own countries interests?
Which foreign ruler would you give a greater influence over US Policy?

NV
--
In my perfect religion, a giant hole appears and sucks up all the lousy people.
I call it the Crapture.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535672 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:34:51 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535664 Bit : Wrong, the government debt was $10,000,000,000,000.00 LONG before there was any hint of a recession and both Republican and Democratic Congresses contributed hugely to it every year. Recession or not, Obama and the Pelosi politburo had their agenda to spend hundreds of billions, he said as much during the campaign, long before the state of the economy reached what it did around the time of the election.

And doubling that debt to $20T won't do anything but cause hyper inflation.

You can't "stimulate" yourself out of recession nor borrow yourself out of debt. The 1930's proved that. And even considering WWII spending, we were in a much better position before and after in terms of debt control and within a few years after WWII, national debt after a percentage of GDP was cut sharply. Obama has ZERO plan to cut spending, NONE, and the CBO projects Obama to DOUBLE our national debt in just 10 years and ever INCREASING deficits. Yeah, he will double in just 10 years a debt that took 30 years to make.

What we had 2 or 3 years of surpluses under a Republican controlled Congress with Clinton over the last 30 years.

The track record or fiscal irresponsibility of both parties is well established. You are a fool if you think for a second that Obama and the Pelosi politburo would actually cut spending, under ANY circumstance. They are the party of government engorgement and make fiscal liberal Bush look like a piker when it comes to deficits.

You want to see Obamanomics? Just look at California. We have been practicing hard core Obamanomics for about 10 years now with it's origins starting with the state employee unions gutting the Gann limits.

Obama will have America insolvent by the end of his first term if he doesn't knock off the pure pork spending 'cause the Chinese are close to done loaning us money for liberal largess.

You will NEVER have fiscal responsibility when you have a single party controlling the legislature and executive branch, Dem or Rep. Only when you have opposition will have have any remote chance of restrained spending.

We NEED government gridlock.
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POKE 65495,1]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535664 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:33:44 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535654 wifi4milez :
said by sonicmerlin See Profile :

The fact is our entire quality of life would be different had a Democrat been elected instead of Bush, who basically trashed our national economy and alienated the US with all its foreign allies.
So you are saying that you prefer the current "situation" over any given moment (take your pick) from the last 8 years? If so, you must be one of the only people in this country without a serious case of 'buyers remorse!'
--
D-Day; If you can read this thank a soldier
-The United States of America-
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535654 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:31:53 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535649 sonicmerlin : Our national budget is in such debt precisely because the government has to fix the horrible situation created by the completely irresponsible deregulation of various industries by the Bush administration.

If you knew anything about Keynesian economics you would understand why the government has to pass these stimulus funds to jolt our economy out of the gutter.

On the flip side, once the economy recovers Democrats are much more likely than Republicans to be fiscally responsible.

Even if corporate profit is "earned" (cough monopolies cough), all that profit is essentially a DRAIN on our economy. The money isn't spent. It simply goes into offshore bank accounts where it becomes some sort of rainy day fund for the corporation, or pads rich people's coffers. Every dollar that the government spends actually goes back into the economy, even creating jobs and the like.

The most efficient scenario are for little government interference while corporations make zero profit overall. However, history has shown time and time again that this never happens. When the government lets rich people run amok, they abuse their power.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535649 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:31:06 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535634 Bit : Those billions in profit are not "drained" from the national economy because those profits are reinvested in the business, buying more equipment, developing new products, hiring more people and/or paid as dividends to shareholders who then spend it.

And lets not forget, for all but utilities (which are for the most part regulated), that money is given up by consumer choice, it is not stolen from them. If someone doesn't want to drop $2000 on a new MacBook Pro or $30000 on a new car they don't have to. If someone doesn't want to buy zillions of gallons of $5/gal in gas they can carpool, combine trips, drive a more economical car, ride a bike, etc. Even when it comes to utilities, they can turn off lights, use the A/C less, water the lawn less and save their money.

No one is putting a gun to anyone's head so that a corporation can make profit.

The government on the other hand STEALS their money under penalty of imprisonment. People don't have the choice of keeping their money by not using government services. And the harder a person works, the more productive they are, the more the government steals from them. The government punishes hard work with progressive taxes and rewards the lazy.
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POKE 65495,1]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535634 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:28:53 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535603 Bit : Yes, that is why I chose Exxon for my example given how they were so villified for the massive profits they made during the record demand period for oil products.

And knowing what Exxon made anyone can appreciate the INSANE amount of money the government reaped from those operations despite the government not having done a damn thing for it.
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POKE 65495,1]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535603 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:23:40 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535589 sonicmerlin : Republicans talk about a "free market", but in a true free market profit tends towards zero. That's in the best interests of the public, because any profit that a corporation makes simply goes into the coffers of rich executives or banked away by the company.

All those billions in profits in other words are drained from the national economy. So yes, if companies are making lots of profit especially due to a lack of competition, it is very, very evil, and hurts everyone but the richest.

And Republicans and Democrats are NOT two sides of the same coin, unless you take a century-long view. While there are honest Democrats and honest Republicans, and liars on both sides, Republicans by and large are biased, selfish rednecks or rich jerks who care only about doing away with government control just enough to let them abuse the populace to make even more money. The fact is our entire quality of life would be different had a Democrat been elected instead of Bush, who basically trashed our national economy and alienated the US with all its foreign allies.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535589 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:22:41 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535581 wifi4milez :
said by Big Pete 82 See Profile :

said by NetAdmin See Profile :

said by wifi4milez See Profile :

Take the DMV for example, those people are total bums and literally dont care about anything other than stamping their time cards.
Strange, I see that in the private sector all over the place too.
The thing is, if there's "waste" in the private sector, its not your problem. If you don't like the service, you don't have to continue as their customer. Corps at least have incentive not to waste to keep you as a customer and to stay in business. On the other hand, when there is gov't waste, it is your problem for 2 reasons. First, the DMV is your ONLY source of service, you can't go anywhere else. Second, your hard earned tax dollars are paying for their employees to be apathetic bums.
Very well said!
--
D-Day; If you can read this thank a soldier
-The United States of America-
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535581 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:21:50 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535569 OverModded :
said by sonicmerlin See Profile :

Exxon has had the highest total profit for a quarter in the history of any single corporation in the entire world.
Profit and profit % are 2 different things. Total profit is meaningless as it only reflects the size of a company. It is the % that matters and Exxon has never led the world in profit %.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535569 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:20:13 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535563 sonicmerlin : Exxon has had the highest total profit for a quarter in the history of any single corporation in the entire world.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535563 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:18:12 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535558 Big Pete 82 :
said by NetAdmin See Profile :

said by wifi4milez See Profile :

Take the DMV for example, those people are total bums and literally dont care about anything other than stamping their time cards.
Strange, I see that in the private sector all over the place too.
The thing is, if there's "waste" in the private sector, its not your problem. If you don't like the service, you don't have to continue as their customer. Corps at least have incentive not to waste to keep you as a customer and to stay in business. On the other hand, when there is gov't waste, it is your problem for 2 reasons. First, the DMV is your ONLY source of service, you can't go anywhere else. Second, your hard earned tax dollars are paying for their employees to be apathetic bums.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535558 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:16:50 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535557 lesopp : Dude, give up already! Saying one thing and meaning something else only works for Obama.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535557 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:16:47 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535540 wifi4milez :
said by NetAdmin See Profile :

said by wifi4milez See Profile :

Take the DMV for example, those people are total bums and literally dont care about anything other than stamping their time cards.
Strange, I see that in the private sector all over the place too.
Of course, except that firing those people (in the private sector) doesnt require an act of God in most cases. The inherent laziness is what makes all gov run institutions dysfunctional.
--
D-Day; If you can read this thank a soldier
-The United States of America-
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535540 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:14:32 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535539 mod_wastrel : I was just using a figure of speech, not trying to quote proverbs. (Did you read my previous post where I said "[money] is not evil"?)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535539 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:14:06 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535536 edesignway : If so called demand is up... Average out the last three months of 2008 with the first three months of 2009 and motor gasoline use was down in the first three months of 2009.

»tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/hist/···001m.htm]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535536 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:13:57 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535490 Bit : Nothing like the DMV, at least the CA DMV.
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POKE 65495,1]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535490 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:04:33 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535486 NetAdmin :
said by wifi4milez See Profile :

Take the DMV for example, those people are total bums and literally dont care about anything other than stamping their time cards.
Strange, I see that in the private sector all over the place too.
--
"This is a bus. You know how big a bus is?"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535486 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:04:00 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535478 lesopp :
said by mod_wastrel See Profile :

It's that whole "money is the root of all evil" thing.
Sounds like a populist message that has been skewed by the current fascist regime.

The correct phrase is "The love of money is the root of all evil"

We are not evil because we need money. We need it to pay our mortgages, feed our families, cloth our children and help those less fortunate.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535478 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:03:23 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535421 Big Pete 82 :
footballdude See Profile
There's no doubt that many (if not most) corporations are run by greedy people that would sell everything good and wholesome for a buck. There's also no doubt that many (if not most) politicians - especially at the federal level - are greedy people looking out solely for their own careers and back pockets who will sanction absolutely anything that's politically expedient, regardless of how badly people get hurt.
Isn't that the truth...its as if people believe that corporations have a monopoly on greed. The same types of greedy people running the corporations are also running the government. Corps at least have competition and shareholders to keep themselves in check. The gov't? There's no competition to keep the gov't in check, they can tax all they want and waste all they want. No one is going to run the gov't out of business. I guess technically the gov't answers to the voters, but when voters only have two choices, there's not much accountability...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535421 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:56:06 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535362 Bit :
said by SLD See Profile :

And typically, gov't waste is a pittance compared to corporate profits earned on our backs.
Total government liabilities now exceed $63,000,000,000,000.00, that is over $500,000.00 per household. National yearly deficit has quadrupled in just 1 year to $1,800,000,000,000.00. The CBO projects that our national debt will DOUBLE in just the next decade to $20,000,000,000,000.00. Servicing that debt alone will cost $1,000,000,000,000.00 a year.

Don't even think of comparing corporate profit which is EARNED as a productive element of society to the level of government waste that we are seeing and have seen over the last 30 years and particularly over the last 8-9.
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POKE 65495,1]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535362 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:49:05 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535326 wifi4milez :
said by SLD See Profile :

Sure, but since no profit needs to be earned on the gov't insurance, the cost will be much lower to the citizen,or they'll get more for their money.
Thats a total fallacy. Unlike a "regular" company that needs to make a profit in order to survive, the government doesnt have that restriction. They will (and have!) run the program into the ground and simply raise taxes to cover their inability to manage it properly.

Look at any gov run institution if you dont believe me. Since nobody is held to a standard (since they arent out to make a profit right?), it foments a culture of laziness. Take the DMV for example, those people are total bums and literally dont care about anything other than stamping their time cards. Now take those same "overly qualified :p" morons and simply place them in the back office that controls nationalized health care. Is THAT really your idea of how things should be??
--
D-Day; If you can read this thank a soldier
-The United States of America-
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535326 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:44:50 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535321 footballdude :
said by SLD See Profile :

typically, gov't waste is a pittance compared to corporate profits earned on our backs.
I read that statement in utter disbelief. You actually mean that? Has any corporation EVER wasted even half as much money as the recent stimulus package?

There's no doubt that many (if not most) corporations are run by greedy people that would sell everything good and wholesome for a buck. There's also no doubt that many (if not most) politicians - especially at the federal level - are greedy people looking out solely for their own careers and back pockets who will sanction absolutely anything that's politically expedient, regardless of how badly people get hurt.

I think you have some serious blinders on.
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It's a trick. Get an axe. - Ash]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535321 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:43:27 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535290 SLD :
said by wifi4milez :

You arent really getting it for less. The money for health care still needs to come from someplace, so the gub'ment will need to raise taxes to cover the difference.
Sure, but since no profit needs to be earned on the gov't insurance, the cost will be much lower to the citizen,or they'll get more for their money.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535290 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:38:22 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535268 SLD : Hey, one thing can be better or worse than another, but rating the value doesn't invalidate the service. You insist on stating that I said that services should be given away - this was never said or implied. It's a stupid idea anyway.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535268 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:35:10 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535229 Bit : They see it as free so long as someone else is paying. They aren't concerned with the burdens their thieving and leeching puts on the productive elements of society.

Thankfully we are not on the only ones who recognize the total failure of government.

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=94lW6Y4tBXs


And no teleprompter :)
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POKE 65495,1]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535229 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:29:00 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535219 wifi4milez : A wise person once said, "There is no such thing as a free lunch." Think about that and how it applies here. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535219 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:27:33 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535214 Bit : I love people who expect other people and companies to work for free while they themselves gladly tax a paycheck.
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POKE 65495,1]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535214 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:27:10 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535206 wifi4milez :
said by SLD See Profile :

But I didn't say that companies should give away their goods/services for free?
You very clearly stated that making a profit is worse than government waste. Hence, you are saying that a company making no profit is good. A company making no profit (a non-profit if you will) is essentially giving its goods/services away for free after they have covered their own expenses. The economy couldnt exist if every company was non-profit, so your argument is fundamentally flawed.

said by SLD See Profile :

It is worse for the citizen because they are paying more for the same thing.
How do you figure that? The money needs to come from somewhere. If you arent paying for it directly it is financed by taxes. Given how badly the government manages these programs, the end result is you will pay more that you would have for an inferior product/service.

said by SLD See Profile :

But companies have a right to earn a profit. If I can get health care as an option from the gov't for less because no profit, I'll appreciate that option.
You arent really getting it for less. The money for health care still needs to come from someplace, so the gub'ment will need to raise taxes to cover the difference.
--
D-Day; If you can read this thank a soldier
-The United States of America-
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535206 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:26:11 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535171 Bit : No guy, the world economy took a massive shit over a period of just a few weeks and that is the ONLY reason the price dropped. Oil is sold on the futures market and you had oil producers producing and stockpiling tons of oil based on economic conditions and demand before the economy went over the cliff. Oil traders see the economy instantly tank and they get out and fast, futures prices tank. So now you have few takers for the supply and like all inventories they were far larger than any demand...so the price dropped.

Now we are starting to see the signs of an economic recovery so what is happening, oil is back to $70bbl because traders see increases future demand, oil producers are producing at rates suitable for a tanked economy instead of a recovered one.

Simply put, with the dying economy you had dying demand, price drops. With a recovering economy you have resurgent demand, price is going up. And even with a mediocre recovery, the huge inventory imbalance that got the price way down so fast, starts to correct itself and the price goes back up just as it is doing now.

Meanwhile gov't steals billions either way.

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POKE 65495,1]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535171 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:18:44 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535166 jjeffeory : When the gov't does it, there is ALWAYS waste.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535166 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:18:20 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535146 SLD : But I didn't say that companies should give away their goods/services for free? Did I?
It is worse for the citizen because they are paying more for the same thing. But companies have a right to earn a profit. If I can get health care as an option from the gov't for less because no profit, I'll appreciate that option.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535146 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:15:11 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535136 wifi4milez :
said by SLD See Profile :

Did I imply that?
Yes.

said by SLD See Profile :

Keep in mind that Corporate = profit -> worse than waste because they take as much extras as they can at your expense.
You clearly stated that a company making a profit is worse than government waste, your words not mine....
--
D-Day; If you can read this thank a soldier
-The United States of America-
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535136 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:13:35 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535131 SLD : Oh, sorry, you're right. China and India went out and found their own supply - that's why the price went down. NOT!
If you understood how the futures market (and other trading) works, you'd understand that the cost was a result of artificial demand. Why do you think the cost dropped by 50% in 1 month - right around the threats of investigation?

Enron's stock jockies did the same thing in CA. They went down for it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535131 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:13:10 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535085 Bit : Wrong. It was supply and demand. Increased demand from China and India put pressure on a limited resource along with speculators and it was OPEC and other petro-nations that got the biggest money...funding idiots like Hugo Chavez.

Exxon got their money from the pure volume of purchases and government got theirs by theft.

And given that sales tax (8.75% here in Cali) is on the price of the gas, the more expensive the gas got, the more insane profits the government made on it. The California sales tax alone eclipses the profits Exxon makes on the gas in this state.

In fact when prices started to drop, Sacramento pissed and moaned, wanting to raise the excise tax to compensate for the drop in obscene sales tax revenues that they had reaped and quickly wasted.
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POKE 65495,1]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535085 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:04:53 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535073 SLD : Yep.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535073 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:03:10 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535069 SLD : Did I imply that?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535069 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:02:30 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535064 SLD : Uhhh... the cost of gas going from $1.75 to over $4 a gallon was not Gov't profit. That was legalized theft from the corporate sector - the same sector that is getting socialized bailouts.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535064 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:01:47 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535053 SLD : No, I'm just pointing out that when someone claims that Gov't is just plain wasteful, the other option is to hire a company to do the same job. When the Gov't does it, there may be waste, but not necessarily. When a company does it, much more cost will be extracted from the citizens because a profit *must* be earned. And typically, gov't waste is a pittance compared to corporate profits earned on our backs. This is particularly inherent is gov't backed monopolies like communications.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535053 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:00:03 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535020 mod_wastrel : It's not that profit is evil. It's the lying that people do to get it, and get more of it, that's evil. It's that whole "money is the root of all evil" thing. Those who seek it go to the places where they can get it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22535020 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:53:50 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22534962 Bit : Except corporations earn their money, they don't steal it by Federal mandate just to set it on fire in corrupt waste-filled bullcrap.

Just look at oil, with all the screaming that goes on about Exxon profits, government makes 6X the "profit" off a gallon of gas than Exxon does. Exxon makes about $0.10/gal profit per gallon and when you sell as much product as they do it equates to insane amounts of profit, in the tens of billions of dollars.

BUT, the Federal government excise tax is $0.184/gal plus there is state excise tax, sales tax etc. In California for example, while Exxon makes their hefty $0.10 per gallon, government makes $0.639/gal. »www.californiagasprices.com/Tax_Info.aspx So when evil corporate Exxon makes $10B, the goverment rakes in well over $60B. When evil Exxon makes $40B, the government rakes in well over $240B.

PLUS government gets to tax Exxon on those billions in profit and they tax the crap out of everyone who works at Exxon (in the U.S.)...even more insane government profit off Exxon's efforts. Meanwhile government didn't do a damn thing for it except endlessly vilify them.
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POKE 65495,1]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22534962 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:45:09 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22534961 wifi4milez :
said by SLD See Profile :

Such Republican political talking points. Keep in mind that Corporate = profit -> worse than waste because they take as much extras as they can at your expense.
So do you mean to imply that companies should give away their goods/services for free?? :hmm:
--
D-Day; If you can read this thank a soldier
-The United States of America-
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22534961 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:44:57 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22534851 mrkevin : you have a choice though:
You're not forced to do business with anyone...Except the Gov't.

I can't see why making a profit = evil
If I am selling something, I want the highest price I can get for it. Does that make me evil?
If I am buying something I want to pay the least amount I can for it. Does that make me evil?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22534851 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:26:43 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22534848 mod_wastrel : Republican vs. Democrat = two sides of the same coin. Companies are in business to make money... duh. Our representatives are "supposed" to represent our interests--"our" as in "we the people". Of course, if they were ever to do that, I'm sure half the population would faint from the shock.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22534848 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:26:09 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22534812 DataDoc : It's not about politics, it's about waste.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22534812 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:19:14 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22534797 SLD : Such Republican political talking points. Keep in mind that Corporate = profit -> worse than waste because they take as much extras as they can at your expense.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22534797 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:16:38 EDT Re: Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22534785 mod_wastrel : Actually, they "belong" in the same sentence... they just never seem to make there together. But, that's politics for you:

govt = politics = waste

Pity we can't get what we're payin' for: actual representation.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22534785 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:15:17 EDT Gov't and clear goals don't belong in the same sentence http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22534643 Bit : Gov't by definition and design = waste.
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POKE 65495,1]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22534643 Thu, 11 Jun 2009 13:48:23 EDT