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Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
 ·Shaw
| Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop quote:
CALGARY - Nabbed in his force's own sting operation, a city police officer has been charged with luring a teenage girl over the Internet.
It's alleged Const. Randann Sargent, 26, who's served with the force for 21/2 years, was in contact on a chat service with a fictional minor with the intention of having the victim supply photographs this fall.
»cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Crime/2009/···sun.html
Our local ICE (Integrated Child Exploitation) team doesn't think anyone is above the law and certainly Const. Randann Sargent will get his chance to plead his case in court, but so will the ICE team. As mentioned in the article this is the second officer arrested in the last year dealing with child porn as last December, retired officer Steve Huggett pleaded guilty to possessing child porn and is to be sentenced later this month.
Now I still maintain and believe that 99.9999% of cops are good guys and I sure wouldn't trade careers with any of them (I couldn't do their job), but while they enforce the law they are expected to live the law just like anyone else.
Blake
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Cudni
La Merma - Vigilado
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join:2003-12-20
Someshire | Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop as it should be and nobody is above law (got to hope that is the case in 99.9 cases)
Cudni | |
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Link Logger
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join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
·Shaw
| Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop One of the reasons why I couldn't be a cop is when you have to deal with all the stuff they deal with day in and day out you can become a little desensitized and the line between right and wrong can become a little blurry so it takes real effort sometimes to maintain that line.
This is really a rare case as was the other one and Calgary has excellent cops, very professional and well trained both in technique and in dealing with people. The ICE group is a crack multi-agency investigative unit involving the Province of Alberta, the RCMP and Calgary, Edmonton, Lethbridge, and Medicine Hat Police Services which has two main objectives:
1.Find, investigate and arrest people who prowl chat rooms looking to exploit children for sex.
2.Find, investigate and arrest people who are trading child pornography.
and has been involved in cracking a number of major global pedophile rings and such and in short are just dam good at hunting the hunter.
Blake
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linicx
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2002-12-03
United State
 ·CenturyLink
| Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop said by Link Logger  :One of the reasons why I couldn't be a cop is when you have to deal with all the stuff they deal with day in and day out you can become a little desensitized and the line between right and wrong can become a little blurry so it takes real effort sometimes to maintain that line. I have to gently argue this point. There is no reason for an adult Law Enforcement Officer to blur the line between a consenting adult and a minor child of any age. There is no room for that kind of blur in this job title.
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Steve
I'm a PC, so shut up
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join:2001-03-10
Yorba Linda, CA
| Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop said by linicx :There is no room for that kind of blur in this job title. Well, there probably should be. Most of us would distinguish somehow between the sexual assault of a four year old, and a gal willingly fooling around a month before she turns 18.
I'm not sure how one codifies it, but it's hard to call them "the same thing".
Steve
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linicx
Caveat Emptor
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United State
·CenturyLink
| Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop said by Steve :said by linicx :There is no room for that kind of blur in this job title. Well, there probably should be. Most of us would distinguish somehow between the sexual assault of a four year old, and a gal willingly fooling around a month before she turns 18. I'm not sure how one codifies it, but it's hard to call them "the same thing". Steve The problem is they are both minor children in the eyes of the law until the second they attain majority age. It makes no difference if they were 4 or 17 years, 29 days, 23 hour old; neither is old enough to consent. They wee both minors in the eyes of the law. IF the cop believed she would be majority age in one month, he should have left the chat room for 31 days. But, just like a hungry fish, he took the bait and got caught.
Is the act toward one more horrific than the other? Sure it is, but it does not change the law or the facts. The cop was not looking for a consenting adult. He was looking for a child. .
Cops are supposed to serve and protect the public. The law didn't blur and neither did the cop. He knew what he was doing when he sat down at the computer.
The two pedophiles I knew both said the same thing. "I don't ______ children." The father said, "I would kill any guy who touched my daughter."
His brother and father were pedophiles and he was raped when he was a child by his uncle. His brother was in jail for the same thing when the father was arrested.
Pedophiles cannot be rehabilitated and they can't be put in general population in prison. You would be surprised how fast these two grabbed a bible and started quoting. And in X years they will be back in society doing the same thing until they die. Hopefully it will be soon.
The saddest part of this story is every one of these adult men with adult urges had an adult choice they did not make.
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| | | | kelseysmom
join:2009-08-04
New Maryland, NB
| this was just sent to me, & i too know him & he is an outstanding police officer. he eats, sleeps & breathes the police force . he has received many commendations for his dedication to the citizens of calgary. you CANNOT lump a 4 year old & a 17 year old in the same category. it's like a speeding ticket. if you are caught doin 55 in a 50, your ticket (if you get one) will be far less, than if you were doin 100 in a 50. this young man is NOT a pedophile & it saddens me to know that he is being treated as one. who's doin the luring here? he rejected the offer of this "girl" sending him pics, until she was of age. this "girl" repeatedly lured him into sayin yes. who's the stalker here? how is the law that he COULD have sexual relations with a 16 year old, but not allowed to possess a picture of a 17 year old, fair? if he would have met this "girl" at a party & had sex with her, that would have been ok. a pedophile would not wait until the fall to ask for a picture, like it was stated in the news. if he was a REAL pedophile, would he have said that? it's unfortunate that he will loose everything thing he has worked so hard for, over one line in a conversation. if you do something right, no one remembers, you do something wrong, no one forgets. he does NOT deserve this Crucifixion. they are going after the wrong guy & the city of calgary will loose a great police officer. | |
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Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
·Shaw
| Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop Fortunately we have a legal system and he will get his day in court, however I will say the ICE team is pretty diligent in their efforts and investigations so the trial should prove interesting.
As a follow up to another case against another local retire officer and child porn:
»www.calgarysun.com/news/alberta/···sun.html
quote:
Former Calgary cop Steve Huggett had no legitimate reason for collecting child porn, a judge said yesterday in sentencing him to nine months in jail.
Provincial court Judge Barb Veldhuis rejected Huggett's claim he was only keeping the material as part of an ongoing, clandestine investigation to stamp out child pornography.
Veldhuis noted Huggett, a 25-year veteran of the Calgary Police Service, never attempted to pass on information to superiors, or other investigators.
Again let me say I think Calgary has one of the best and most professional police departments going and every interaction I've had with them has left me suitably impressed.
Blake
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linicx
Caveat Emptor
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United State
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| kelseysmom,
You plead an eloquent case. The elephant in the room is the law. He was the adult. She was a child. The law calls this pedophilia. The fine points of this case have yet to be litigated.
This poor misunderstood cop would not be the only man in the world that let testosterone over-ride good judgement, an unblemished career, a marriage with children, public service, the rule of law or good intentions.
He did.
When he clicked 'send' he opened a can of worms that probably ruined his own career. Worst scenario is the case is dismissed and so is he. What kind of a job is an ex-cop with a reputation of a "pedophile" going to get? Who will employ him? What is is life worth? Cops hate pedophiles as much as cons do. You cannot put them in general prison population. And regardless of where he moves, there will always be someone who remembers the Internet story.
The repercussion is not a lot different than the people who genuinely believe Obama is a Muslim and his Birth Certificate from Hawaii is a fake. .
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Steve
I'm a PC, so shut up
Consultant
join:2001-03-10
Yorba Linda, CA
| Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop said by linicx : The law calls this pedophilia. It does so incorrectly: it's actually ephebophilia.
I think most of us see a material difference between sexual attraction to a 5 year old, and to a 17 year old. | |
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sailor
Merry Whatever ..R.I.P. dadkins
Premium
join:2003-10-21
Long Island
| Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop said by La Luna :There are bad doctors, bad lawyers, bad computer scientists, so why not a few bad cops? I don't think this is abnormal, meaning it doesn't surprise me when a few are caught here and there doing things they shouldn't. In the end, people are still people, with all their flaws no matter what their profession is. I'm with you. It is a illness and like cancer, does not matter if you are a celebrity or a brick layer or what. I remember a couple of years ago a very respected and well liked real estate guy out in The Hamptons got busted for having kiddie porn and people who knew him expressed disbelief. There just had to be a mistake they all said.
Turns out he was sick and admitted so after being busted and last I heard is doing time. These individuals should be treated for their disease/illness while they are imprisoned and shouldn't be just in there to serve time and get out again...they need help. | |
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Blue2
Premium
join:2004-04-14
France
| To the question "There are bad doctors, bad lawyers, bad computer scientists, so why not a few bad cops? ", there is probably one big difference.
No one becomes a doctor, lawyer or computer scientist with the intention of being a bad one. But I'm willing to bet that some go into law enforcement just because the "seedier" elements in life fascinate or excite them. The line between routing out these elements might not be so far from their own interests, perhaps unkknowingly. So anyone who volunteers, for example, to be on a 'vice" squad, should certainly have their intentions thoroughly checked. | |
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Steve
I'm a PC, so shut up
Consultant
join:2001-03-10
Yorba Linda, CA
| Ok, something doesn't look right. From the article, it says "with the intention of having the victim supply photographs this fall".
How many child predators would hold off asking for the goodies for months? Is it conceivable that during the fake-chat, the day of her birthday became known and "this fall" would have been after she turned 18?
Is it a crime to have sexy-talk with a minor and overtly plan for behavior that waits for the age of majority (putting aside the fact that it's just creepy)?
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| | dave
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join:2000-05-04
not in ohio | Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop One thing I never quite understand in these operations - there was no teenage girl, so how can someone be charged with 'luring a teenage girl'? What is the legal situation? | |
| | | Tuulilapsi
Kenosis
join:2002-07-29
Finland
| Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop said by dave :One thing I never quite understand in these operations - there was no teenage girl, so how can someone be charged with 'luring a teenage girl'? What is the legal situation? That is the question, isn't it. I do see that ICE tries to do good here, but one has to admit it is rather absurd to charge someone for luring a pretend teenage girl. I wonder if that works the other way around, as well: are you committing a crime if you're chatting with someone who claims to be a 25-year-old but is actually some teenager just pretending to be legal age? Good thing I'm not young enough to have to worry about stuff like this! 
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Tzale
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Sweden
 ·Verizon FIOS
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| said by Steve :Ok, something doesn't look right. From the article, it says "with the intention of having the victim supply photographs this fall". How many child predators would hold off asking for the goodies for months? Is it conceivable that during the fake-chat, the day of her birthday became known and "this fall" would have been after she turned 18? Is it a crime to have sexy-talk with a minor and overtly plan for behavior that waits for the age of majority (putting aside the fact that it's just creepy)? No, it is not illegal IMHO.
You can't commit a crime until you have actually done it.
-Tzale
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Its a Secret
Whatever
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U B Funny
·Shaw
| Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop said by fatness :This article says...*snip* Blame it on the education system; folks can't read at graduation... | |
| | | dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio | Probably a bad translation from Canadian to American.
(What do Canadians call the season between Summer and Winter, anyway?) | |
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fatness
subtle
Janitor
join:2000-11-17
fishing | Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop The 4 seasons in Canada are Winter, Winter, Construction, and Winter. | |
| | | | | peterboro1
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON
| Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop said by fatness :The 4 seasons in Canada are Winter, Winter, Construction, and Winter. +1 | |
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Blue2
Premium
join:2004-04-14
France
| To both your points, as the article clearly stated, ""He was charged with one count of using a computer system to communicate with a person he believed to be under the age of 18 years," said Purvis."
So I don't know the Calgary statutes, but I'm sure that those who charged him do.
Whether she was underage or not is not the issue since it obviously was a decoy. But the officer apparently thought he was communicating with someone under 18, and the nature of that communication caused him to be charged under this statute. | |
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Steve
I'm a PC, so shut up
Consultant
join:2001-03-10
Yorba Linda, CA
| Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop said by Blue2 , quoting the article :"He was charged with one count of using a computer system to communicate with a person he believed to be under the age of 18 years," Yes, I read that too, and it scares me a little that merely communicating with a minor is a crime - I hope that's an oversimplification of what the actual charge is. | |
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Cudni
La Merma - Vigilado
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join:2003-12-20
Someshire
| Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop said by Steve :I hope that's an oversimplification of what the actual charge is. of course it is. they wouldn't dare charge him if it couldn't be substantiated
Cudni
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| | | dave
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| But it's worse - it's communicating with someone you think is under 18. Presumably, as long as you didn't believe the person was under 18, the same conversation with the same person would be legal. Thus, it apparently depends on what was in the mind of the suspect at the time. This is scary.
(And before we go in that direction, can we discuss this without assuming I am somehow 'for' the rights of child predators?) | |
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Cudni
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Someshire
| Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop said by dave : Thus, it apparently depends on what was in the mind of the suspect at the time. This is scary. it depends on the actions and preferably evidence from which reasonable persons can infer what was on the mind. until we can read minds what else is there?
Cudni
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Help yourself so God can help you.
Microsoft MVP, 2006 - 2009 | |
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Blue2
Premium
join:2004-04-14
France
| said by dave :But it's worse - it's communicating with someone you think is under 18. Presumably, as long as you didn't believe the person was under 18, the same conversation with the same person would be legal. I think you are missing the point here.
Of course she was a "pretend" teenage girl, because I'm assuming that this was a "sting" operation. They don't use underage teens for that, but cops who pretend to be underage.
So I can only imagine that once the decoy stated that she was under 18 and he continued and pursued his conversation, he was caught.
So it has nothing to do with what he believed, but that once her age was known to him, the nature of the converation became a crime in Calgary. | |
| | | | | dave
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| Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop But you're still missing my point. "Her" actual age was was NOT known to the perp, and if her age had been known, no crime would have been comitted, as far as I can tell - I'm assuming it's not illegal for adults to play games where one party pretends to be something he/she is not, and the other party pretends to believe it.
I can't think of another crime where the existence of a crime depends on what the criminal thought. If I buy a bag of oregano on a street corner, I'm not guilty of buying marijuana just because I believed it was marijuana.
The only thing that comes close is 'hate crime', but that's different (I think) because the actual action is still a crime whether it's a hate crime or now. Categorizing it as hate crime only changes the penalty. | |
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Steve
I'm a PC, so shut up
Consultant
join:2001-03-10
Yorba Linda, CA
| Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop said by dave : I can't think of another crime where the existence of a crime depends on what the criminal thought. Employment discrimination.
Receiving stolen property.
Selling ordinary products that you know a customer will use to package illegal drugs (Pennsylvania) | |
| | | | | | NunyaBidness
God Bless All Of Us
Premium
join:2001-05-25
Memphis, TN
| said by dave :...If I buy a bag of oregano on a street corner, I'm not guilty of buying marijuana just because I believed it was marijuana. Around here they would call your bag of oregano "imitation of a controlled substance" and the sentence, if found guilty, is about the same as if it was the actual drug.
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jabarnut
Light Years Away
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Galaxy M31
| Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop said by NunyaBidness : Around here they would call your bag of oregano "imitation of a controlled substance" and the sentence, if found guilty, is about the same as if it was the actual drug. That does it.....I'm not buying any more oregano, no sir! 
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Cabal
Premium
join:2007-01-21
Boston, MA | Thoughtcrime. | |
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sailor
Merry Whatever ..R.I.P. dadkins
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Long Island
1 edit | said by Blue2 :Of course she was a "pretend" teenage girl, because I'm assuming that this was a "sting" operation. They don't use underage teens for that, but cops who pretend to be underage. Or Miss America
»origin.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,···,00.html | |
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fatness
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| said by Blue2 :So I can only imagine that once the decoy stated that she was under 18 and he continued and pursued his conversation, he was caught. I imagine if that did not occur there will be no conviction. It's hard to imagine a conviction on the basis of a girl who didn't exist, an (under)age which wasn't stated, and pictures that didn't exist.
When is trial scheduled? It'll be interesting to find out more details as time goes by. | |
| | | | 
pog
Premium
join:2004-06-03
Kihei, HI
·Hawaiian Telcom
| There are lots of areas where "intent" plays a huge role... but we are seeing more and more where the intent, itself, is the crime and nothing else needs to have happened. Or, whatever actually happened may not be a felony, unless there's a certain intent.
Intent, in murder cases, is obviously very important... but the fact that someone died is the issue at hand. Intent, in assault cases, becomes extremely important if "hate crime" laws are invoked... still, there's an actual assault that occurred.
In these underage internet luring cases, I suspect we are sacrificing fairness for the sake of economics and feasibility. "Economics" because it's cheaper to grab some chat text/etc than monitor someone for months, waiting to catch them in the act. "Feasibility" because it's virtually impossible to be a 3rd party monitoring real conversations between suspects and actual underage kids.
What worries me about these kinds of cases is that the public's outrage over actual crimes of this nature is being used to obtain seemingly-knee-jerk approval for these tactics.
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as43090
@rr.com
| So now thought can be a crime?
said by dave :But it's worse - it's communicating with someone you think is under 18. Presumably, as long as you didn't believe the person was under 18, the same conversation with the same person would be legal. Thus, it apparently depends on what was in the mind of the suspect at the time. This is scary. (And before we go in that direction, can we discuss this without assuming I am somehow 'for' the rights of child predators?) | |
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N3OGH
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|  Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop
You can think whatever you want. What goes on between your ears is your own business.
I would love to see the chat logs on this one. I seriously doubt he was asking her for pictures from last year's class visit to the local science museum. I'm sure the chat logs reveal something a bit more lurid in nature.
From a prosecutorial standpoint, I think it's a bit flimsy. Especially since he wanted the pictures "in October". If he had reasonable grounds to believe she would be 18 in October, he MIGHT have a defense.
From the arresting officer's standpoint, I see the reasons for acting now instead of later. Here you have a police officer, with tremendous authority over other people and their children and he may be a sexual predator. IMHO, once you get enough to get yourself in the door from a legal standpoint, you get your ass in there and see what this guy's up to before someone gets hurt for real.
If there's nothing more here, this guy probably walks. I'm guessing those computers are chock full of kiddy porn, and this guy has no business wearing a badge.
Besides, WTF? You're 26 for Christ sake. Why the hell are you talking to 18 year olds on the internet?
I mean, really. Who hasn't seen Chris Hanson on "To Catch a Predator" at this point?
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sailor
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Long Island
1 edit | Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop said by N3OGH : Who hasn't seen Chris Hanson on "To Catch a Predator" at this point? True but what about those busted on the show in the sting operation who either had all charges dropped or were found not guilty? Due to the way they conducted the sting those who were truly innocent still were portrayed as guilty and basically had their lives ruined, being humilatated, jobs lost, photos in the papers and even on television etc. This all before even being arraigned. And then down the road when charges are dropped or individuals arrested are found not guilty does the sting operation participants go back on the air and publicly announce the names of those who were found not guilty or had charges dropped? NO!....are they looking to save some kids or are they looking for high ratings and advertising fees?....I say ratings.....Finally, like I mentioned earlier, there is a fine line between good law enforcement and entrapment and these kinds of shows obviously have crossed that line. Go after the pervs and not after the ratings is where I stand on this.
__
Validity of Murphy predator stings under scrutiny
The town of Murphy in Collin County became big news last fall after it was the location for a highly publicized sting designed to catch sexual predators, which became the subject of two NBC To Catch a Predator shows. The sting was also behind the suicide of a former Kaufman County district attorney.
However, information has arisen that indicates that after the television crews left, little happened to the alleged sexual predators.
While there were 24 arrests, little has become of the cases. Reports also reveal that the legality of the sting was questioned before it went down, and that a key search warrant was invalid.
The news has led critics, inside and outside the legal system, to ask whether the sting was about law enforcement or making a TV show.
»www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/w···c39.html
_____
Charges dropped
In June 2007, Perverted-Justice was criticized following a sting operation in Collin County, Texas, that resulted in the charges against 23 suspected online sex predators being dropped. Collin County Assistant District Attorney Greg Davis said the cases were dropped after Perverted-Justice failed to provide enough usable evidence.
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Catch_a_Predator | |
| | | dave
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not in ohio
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| This wording is slightly more specific:
The officer, Const. Randann Scott Sargent, was arrested on Thursday and charged with one count of using a computer system to communicate with a person he believed to be under the age of 18 years for the purpose of facilitating the commission of an offence. »www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/···ged.html | |
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Link Logger
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join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
·Shaw
| Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop said by dave :This wording is slightly more specific: The officer, Const. Randann Scott Sargent, was arrested on Thursday and charged with one count of using a computer system to communicate with a person he believed to be under the age of 18 years for the purpose of facilitating the commission of an offence. » www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/···ged.html The key phrase here is 'facilitating the commission of an offence', so think along the lines of actively recruiting someone as a source for underage porn photos.
It is better to nip these as soon as possible as the impact on the minor involved can likely be fixed, as compared to the impact it might have on them after the photo's are taken and released (ie get in the business).
Blake
Sorry to be late posting this but I was distracted for a couple of hours while putting together this reply.
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| | | | | dave
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join:2000-05-04
not in ohio | Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop Yeah, I'd accept that. Pity the initial press reports left out the 'key phrase', huh? Could havw saved a lot of side-tracking here... | |
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Its a Secret
Whatever
Premium
join:2008-02-23
U B Funny | That would make far more sense. Thanks. | |
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kerriskandie
join:2001-10-09
Coram, NY
·Optimum Online
| Reminds me of the joke: ( notthat this is a subject to be taken lightly......but)
"I met a 15 year old girl recently, whi I met online, in an internet chatroom, she was smart, sexy, alluring, and also a detective!!!
How cool is that, at her age".................... | |
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Blue2
Premium
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France
2 edits | said by dave :But you're still missing my point. "Her" actual age was was NOT known to the perp, and if her age had been known, no crime would have been comitted, as far as I can tell ... I can't think of another crime where the existence of a crime depends on what the criminal thought. Sorry, I think you are quite mistaken.
Plenty of crimes depend on what you "think". Your "intent" is used in all sting operations.You think you are buying nuclear weapons, drugs or propositioning a prostitute. However, there are no nuclear weapons, drugs or prostitutes for sale.
That is why the decoy is always prevented from baiting or entrapping those that they are after.
Your intent is the basis of the criminal activity, NOT whether the nucear weapon, drugs or prostitute are real.
By the way, adults can do play-acting, but in order for it NOT to be crime (at least in Calgary), I imagine that you would have to KNOW that the person to whom you are communicating is just play-acting and of legal age. You can't assume that she is play-acting and it was just a game, any more than you could when caught with drugs (Your honor, I thought it was "play drugs" or play "nuclear weapons", now could you? | |
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Blue2
Premium
join:2004-04-14
France
| Pctures were not part of the specific charge: "one count of using a computer system to communicate with a person he believed to be under the age of 18 years."
You assume that the pictures are the issue, and the article suggests that it was the nature of his conversation with a suspected minor that brought the charges. If so, that conversation won't be published, but presented at trial. So it's unikely you will ever be able to "judge" his crime. That is what a judge/jury will do.
I don't understand what the point is in contesting the use of someone who is not a minor to pose as a minor. What can they use as "bait", a real child? Undercover cops pretend to be drug dealers too, but you don't call them "drug dealers who don't exist". You call them decoys.
Even if they considered for a minute to use minors for such operations, no doubt they would be guilty of corrupting a minor, exactly what they are attempting to protect against.
So as I understand it, the girl existed, she was of legal age but pretending to be a minor, and pictures have nothing to do with the crime he was charged with. Nothing in any of that surprises me or causes me concern. He'll get his day in court. | |
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| Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop said by Blue2 :Pctures were not part of the specific charge: "one count of using a computer system to communicate with a person he believed to be under the age of 18 years." Is there a more complete description of that statute? Everyone on this website is guilty of using a computer to communicate with a person they believe is under 18. We have thousands of young members. | |
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sailor
Merry Whatever ..R.I.P. dadkins
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Long Island
1 edit | Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop Good point. | |
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mattmag
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| said by fatness :Is there a more complete description of that statute? Everyone on this website is guilty of using a computer to communicate with a person they believe is under 18. We have thousands of young members. There are specific things that must be intended on the part of the offender, and that must be established to even bring the charge.
At the risk of seriously turning some stomachs here, what I *can* tell you from first-hand experience is this: There isn't any type of luring on the part of the undercover person, and there is absolutely ZERO doubt on the part of the prosecutor that the offender;
A. Established in his mind the target was underage.
B. Established in the minds of all those participating what his specific intentions are.
And
C. Was fully aware that what he was trying to accomplish via the computer was illegal.
I recently attended a cyber-crime training class, and I came away with a whole new view of the Internet, and what it is capable of. I also was truly amazed, (and I consider myself to be an 'advanced' computer user with above-average knowledge) at how FAST and EASY it is for kids to be caught up in these perpetrations, and to become victims without much if any effort on their part.
As part of our lessons, we created user accounts on a couple popular chat-systems, and visited chat rooms. I kid you not, within a matter of minutes, ALL the class members had established communications with predatory subjects, and could have quite easily gathered enough information to begin good legal cases against many of them.
Incredible. And sickening if you think too much about it. | |
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sailor
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3 edits | Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop said by BurntCricket :Some questions I would need answered if it was a Jury trial and I was a Juror: Which person was leading the conversation? That first one you listed is a very good question..Think if someone is in a chat room and someone posing as a teen says something like .."I'm HOT" and who knows, maybe the guy said something like..."Yeah, sure you are, now scram" and she replies, "I really am HOT, wanna see" and he says" Yeah, next fall now get out of here"
I doubt what I listed above is what actually went down but I can recall when they used Miss America she mentioned how in a long IM she had with a guy they ended up busting she admitted being flirty. There is a fine line between good police work and entrapment.
We all hear of these arrest but how many of those arrested get convicted? I have read where quite a number of those arrested had charges dropped later.
Make no mistake I, like everyone else here, want to see pervs who are found guilty placed behind bars but you have to wonder at times if after a guy gets arrested and then his attorney gets a record of the chat room or the IM then suddenly the charges get dismissed but we never hear about that.
I mean using a Miss America in a police operation is not what I call good law enforcement. But it generates much publicity. | |
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Link Logger
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Calgary, AB
·Shaw
| Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop I understand the concerns over who was 'driving' the conversation, but the ICE Group are pros and take a neutral position in the conversation and let the other person drive the conversation (everything is recorded for the trial of course, so everyone can see what was said and happening). Now one conversation certainly doesn't demonstrate motivation, so these cases typically involve a series of conversations where the end intent is very clear.
Walking down the street and saying 'Hello' in passing to and undercover vice cop isn't going to land you in jail sort of thing, there has to be clear intent before anything can be done, otherwise the courts get upset for wasting their time as well as the department's time and resources.
Blake
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| | | peterboro1
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON
| Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop I was thinking the same thing.
What does the section of the criminal code he was charged under say?
Funny we just charged the age of consent from 14 to 16.
Glad I'm not in high school now. | |
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Its a Secret
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| Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop said by peterboro1 :Funny we just charged the age of consent from 14 to 16. Glad I'm not in high school now. But, that doesn't apply if you are within 2 years of age of each other. But, you're right. A 17 YO guy seeing a 14 YO gal... The potential is not good.
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| | GyroCaptain
join:2008-08-01 | Now I still maintain and believe that 99.9999% of cops are good guys Now THATS funny!! | |
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Blue2
Premium
join:2004-04-14
France
| I promptly corrected my error. Mea culpa. Mea culpa. Mea maxima culpa. Perhaps it was too much to expect absolution. In any case, "You don't even know what you are writing." does seem like a slight exaggeration.
Many assumptions were strewn hroughout this thread and I pointed them out, though I in no way suggested that they all came from you.
As far as I know, this thread was not started as a theoretical exercise, but for reporting a particular news item. That item provides no information, so there can be no answers only speculation. If this is just a general discussion about the trampling of civil liberties, due process, intent versus actions, etc. this threadbare news story would hardly seem to be much of a catalyst. | |
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Blue2
Premium
join:2004-04-14
France
| As facts are released, the basis for this particular arrest will become clearer. But to question such arrests with the claim that they might unreasonably "piss on the lives of people" appears to be unsupported by statistics.
The US Department of Justice states that on child pornography prosecutions from 1992 to date: "In 89 percent of the cases, the defendants either pled guilty or were found guilty at trial. Of the remaining cases, approximately 8 percent were dismissed, 3 percent were terminated for other reasons, and 0.5 percent resulted in acquittals." »www.usdoj.gov/oig/reports/plus/e···ults.htm
That's an extremely low acquittal rate for any crime, suggesting that either a judge summarily dismisses the case for lack of evidence OR the case proceeds with the defendant pleading guility or being convicted. So if they have enough evidence to get you to trial, your chances are not good. | |
| jarthur31
join:2006-04-14
Carlsbad, NM | When are you people ever going to go after the Catholic priests???!!!
They've been getting away with this depravity for over 800 years. Do you not care? | |
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Link Logger
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join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
·Shaw
| When this case goes to court, I'm looking forward to see the evidence the ICE team has collected and perhaps I'll show up in court to hear it presented, but typically once the accused sees the amount of evidence which has been collected, they plead guilty as they know their guilty and that someone else knows their guilty and can prove it. This young man has worked hard to get onto the force and has a good record as an officer, but if he is found guilty it will cast a shadow over a lot of positive things he has done in his past.
Are newspapers etc going to give all the facts and such, nope but it in effect lets you know whats going on so if you wish to go sit in court and get the details and such you can, one of the things I like about our system is public trials. Sometimes a visit to your local court house to see the system in action can be very interesting.
Blake
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SnowyOne
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| Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop said by Link Logger :This young man has worked hard to get onto the force and has a good record as an officer, but if he is found guilty it will cast a shadow over a lot of positive things he has done in his past. I'm late getting to this thread but I'd think if found guilty it would trump anything the officer had previously accomplished. | |
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Blue2
Premium
join:2004-04-14
France
| Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop said by SnowyOne : I'm late getting to this thread but I'd think if found guilty it would trump anything the officer had previously accomplished. And sadly, perhaps even provide grounds for appeals on trials he might have been involved in. | |
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| Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop That's part makes me angry about police or judicial misconduct. Currently in MD there are convictions being challenged and thrown out due, if I'm remembering correctly, either to falsified drug test results or mishandling/misrepresenting/planting of evidence, all due to proven misconduct by one person. People who would likely have been convicted, fairly, are walking because of the misconduct of one person. | |
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1 edit | said by Link Logger :When this case goes to court, I'm looking forward to see the evidence the ICE team has collected ... Blake
I agree - It would be interesting to see the evidence, including chat logs, forensic information and chain of custody, as well as the specific laws that will be applied.
If the evidence is properly gathered, verified and processed there should be a fair hearing, assuming a competent judge is presiding. If not, a good defense lawyer can get a guilty person off. Conversely a poor defense lawyer can leave an innocent person convicted on bad evidence.
I feel many law enforcement people, judges and prosecutors still have a long way to go in educating themselves on computer and technology based crimes and trials, particularly in rural and local jurisdictions. There should be better education and training in this area.
EDIT - As others have mentioned, even when someone is found innocent, they are still considered by many as "accused child molester/predator". That accusation is one that seems to stick with people regardless of the outcome.
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Link Logger
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·Shaw
| Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop To follow up further there is a case against a retired cop who was charge with possession of child pornography which is in the courts now. The retired officer claims that he was on a one man crusade to save the victims:
»www.calgaryherald.com/news/Retir···ory.html
Now certainly I understand the personal belief for a one man crusade, however the system exists for a reason and that is to follow the 'rules' etc of investigation and its legal process and so while I'm convinced this retired officer is not a pedophile, he should have known better then to launch a one man crusade, and particularly in this area, as possession is possession and illegal regardless of the reason outside of a legitimate investigation. I believe he will be convicted and sentenced to jail time (not less then 90 days) and perhaps a couple years probation to ensure he doesn't launch any other one man crusades. I have my own doubts about him registering as sex offender as this person doesn't sound like a predator.
One has to be careful that personal beliefs don't cloud the reality of some situations.
Blake
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lightbulb
@telus.net
| I feel badly for the officer. He is an excellent, hard working cop. His service record is unblemished and I feel he's been given a bad rap. Sure, he was set up and showed poor judgment; but he does not deserve this public crucifixion. Internal discipline - perhaps. But criminal charges plastered in the media? He is not a public threat, nor is he a 'child' predator. The media perception of this officer is gross. I hope this young officer maintains his position on the force. He is a great asset to his department. | |
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Blue2
Premium
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France
| Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop said by lightbulb :
I feel badly for the officer. He is an excellent, hard working cop. His service record is unblemished and I feel he's been given a bad rap. Sure, he was set up and showed poor judgment; but he does not deserve this public crucifixion.
Do you know this officer or is this just a general impression? I'm still not sure that precisely what he did has been reported, so how do you know if that rap is appropriate or not? Was he specifically set up, and if so, why? Without all the facts, I make no assumptions other than that there was some presumed basis for his arrest. | |
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lightbulb
@telus.net | Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop I do know him. | |
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TruthPrevails
@shawcable.net | Re: Reply to lightbulb Good on you for speaking up. I also know him very well ,both in a professional and personal capacity. Not for one moment do I think or believe he is guilty of anything other than poor judgement. | |
| | | | | limehead
join:2009-07-04
Alberta
| Re: Reply to lightbulb I agree with you. I too have worked with this man. I also know him on a personal level. He is open and honest. He is professional and responsible. He is not what the media is trying to make him. He is not a predator. It is unfortunate that he has made this mistake that will tarnish his reputation. | |
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change the code
@cgocable.net
| said by lightbulb :
I feel badly for the officer. He is an excellent, hard working cop. His service record is unblemished and I feel he's been given a bad rap. Sure, he was set up and showed poor judgment; but he does not deserve this public crucifixion. Internal discipline - perhaps. But criminal charges plastered in the media? He is not a public threat, nor is he a 'child' predator. The media perception of this officer is gross. I hope this young officer maintains his position on the force. He is a great asset to his department.
Being Telus you're out west so you may know him.
Seems weird that he can have sex with her legally yet be charged for asking her to send a pic.
The criminal code needs some reform in this context. | |
| 
major marco
Res Firma Mitescere Nescit
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Stepford, CA
clubs:
| said by Link Logger : [...] I still maintain and believe that 99.9999% of cops are good guys [...] In Canuckistan maybe, but down here it's more like 50%. Law enforcement has entirely too many discretionary powers and gains more with each passing day. Case in point: Tasering. | |
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