NunyaBidness
God Bless All Of Us
Premium
join:2001-05-25
Memphis, TN
| reply to dave
Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop
said by dave  :...If I buy a bag of oregano on a street corner, I'm not guilty of buying marijuana just because I believed it was marijuana. Around here they would call your bag of oregano "imitation of a controlled substance" and the sentence, if found guilty, is about the same as if it was the actual drug.
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Nunya Bidness
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jabarnut
Light Years Away
Premium,MVM
join:2005-01-22
Galaxy M31
| said by NunyaBidness : Around here they would call your bag of oregano "imitation of a controlled substance" and the sentence, if found guilty, is about the same as if it was the actual drug. That does it.....I'm not buying any more oregano, no sir! 
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Blue2
Premium
join:2004-04-14
France
2 edits | reply to Link Logger
said by dave :But you're still missing my point. "Her" actual age was was NOT known to the perp, and if her age had been known, no crime would have been comitted, as far as I can tell ... I can't think of another crime where the existence of a crime depends on what the criminal thought. Sorry, I think you are quite mistaken.
Plenty of crimes depend on what you "think". Your "intent" is used in all sting operations.You think you are buying nuclear weapons, drugs or propositioning a prostitute. However, there are no nuclear weapons, drugs or prostitutes for sale.
That is why the decoy is always prevented from baiting or entrapping those that they are after.
Your intent is the basis of the criminal activity, NOT whether the nucear weapon, drugs or prostitute are real.
By the way, adults can do play-acting, but in order for it NOT to be crime (at least in Calgary), I imagine that you would have to KNOW that the person to whom you are communicating is just play-acting and of legal age. You can't assume that she is play-acting and it was just a game, any more than you could when caught with drugs (Your honor, I thought it was "play drugs" or play "nuclear weapons", now could you? |
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sailor
Merry Whatever ..R.I.P. dadkins
Premium
join:2003-10-21
Long Island
1 edit | reply to Blue2
said by Blue2 :Of course she was a "pretend" teenage girl, because I'm assuming that this was a "sting" operation. They don't use underage teens for that, but cops who pretend to be underage. Or Miss America
»origin.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,···,00.html |
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fatness
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| reply to Blue2
said by Blue2 :So I can only imagine that once the decoy stated that she was under 18 and he continued and pursued his conversation, he was caught. I imagine if that did not occur there will be no conviction. It's hard to imagine a conviction on the basis of a girl who didn't exist, an (under)age which wasn't stated, and pictures that didn't exist.
When is trial scheduled? It'll be interesting to find out more details as time goes by. |
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Blue2
Premium
join:2004-04-14
France
| reply to Link Logger
Pctures were not part of the specific charge: "one count of using a computer system to communicate with a person he believed to be under the age of 18 years."
You assume that the pictures are the issue, and the article suggests that it was the nature of his conversation with a suspected minor that brought the charges. If so, that conversation won't be published, but presented at trial. So it's unikely you will ever be able to "judge" his crime. That is what a judge/jury will do.
I don't understand what the point is in contesting the use of someone who is not a minor to pose as a minor. What can they use as "bait", a real child? Undercover cops pretend to be drug dealers too, but you don't call them "drug dealers who don't exist". You call them decoys.
Even if they considered for a minute to use minors for such operations, no doubt they would be guilty of corrupting a minor, exactly what they are attempting to protect against.
So as I understand it, the girl existed, she was of legal age but pretending to be a minor, and pictures have nothing to do with the crime he was charged with. Nothing in any of that surprises me or causes me concern. He'll get his day in court. |
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BurntCricket
Gotta Do What Ya Gotta Do
Premium
join:2000-09-02
Here
clubs:
 ·RoadRunner Cable
| reply to Link Logger
Some questions I would need answered if it was a Jury trial and I was a Juror:
Which person was leading the conversation?
Did he think she was under age?
Did he ask for "dirty" pictures of her, thinking she was under age?
Did he try to arrange a meeting with the purpose of an action that was illegal under the laws of the Province ?
If this meeting was arranged, was it carried out?
If simply communicating with a person that is under age(regardless of the content of those conversations) is illegal, they are going to need to build a lot more prisons.
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sailor
Merry Whatever ..R.I.P. dadkins
Premium
join:2003-10-21
Long Island
3 edits | said by BurntCricket :Some questions I would need answered if it was a Jury trial and I was a Juror: Which person was leading the conversation? That first one you listed is a very good question..Think if someone is in a chat room and someone posing as a teen says something like .."I'm HOT" and who knows, maybe the guy said something like..."Yeah, sure you are, now scram" and she replies, "I really am HOT, wanna see" and he says" Yeah, next fall now get out of here"
I doubt what I listed above is what actually went down but I can recall when they used Miss America she mentioned how in a long IM she had with a guy they ended up busting she admitted being flirty. There is a fine line between good police work and entrapment.
We all hear of these arrest but how many of those arrested get convicted? I have read where quite a number of those arrested had charges dropped later.
Make no mistake I, like everyone else here, want to see pervs who are found guilty placed behind bars but you have to wonder at times if after a guy gets arrested and then his attorney gets a record of the chat room or the IM then suddenly the charges get dismissed but we never hear about that.
I mean using a Miss America in a police operation is not what I call good law enforcement. But it generates much publicity. |
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sailor
Merry Whatever ..R.I.P. dadkins
Premium
join:2003-10-21
Long Island
| reply to La Luna
said by La Luna :There are bad doctors, bad lawyers, bad computer scientists, so why not a few bad cops? I don't think this is abnormal, meaning it doesn't surprise me when a few are caught here and there doing things they shouldn't. In the end, people are still people, with all their flaws no matter what their profession is. I'm with you. It is a illness and like cancer, does not matter if you are a celebrity or a brick layer or what. I remember a couple of years ago a very respected and well liked real estate guy out in The Hamptons got busted for having kiddie porn and people who knew him expressed disbelief. There just had to be a mistake they all said.
Turns out he was sick and admitted so after being busted and last I heard is doing time. These individuals should be treated for their disease/illness while they are imprisoned and shouldn't be just in there to serve time and get out again...they need help. |
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Its a Secret
Whatever
Premium
join:2008-02-23
U B Funny
·Shaw
| reply to Link Logger
I find it interesting that Canada has a consensual sex law that is 16. Citations:
• »www.parl.gc.ca/information/libra···LAW(txt)
• »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_co···a#Canada
How did this cop lure, and what did she say her age was?
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| reply to Blue2
said by Blue2 :Pctures were not part of the specific charge: "one count of using a computer system to communicate with a person he believed to be under the age of 18 years." Is there a more complete description of that statute? Everyone on this website is guilty of using a computer to communicate with a person they believe is under 18. We have thousands of young members. |
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sailor
Merry Whatever ..R.I.P. dadkins
Premium
join:2003-10-21
Long Island
1 edit | Good point. |
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Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
·Shaw
| reply to dave
said by dave :This wording is slightly more specific: The officer, Const. Randann Scott Sargent, was arrested on Thursday and charged with one count of using a computer system to communicate with a person he believed to be under the age of 18 years for the purpose of facilitating the commission of an offence. » www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/···ged.html The key phrase here is 'facilitating the commission of an offence', so think along the lines of actively recruiting someone as a source for underage porn photos.
It is better to nip these as soon as possible as the impact on the minor involved can likely be fixed, as compared to the impact it might have on them after the photo's are taken and released (ie get in the business).
Blake
Sorry to be late posting this but I was distracted for a couple of hours while putting together this reply.
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dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio | Yeah, I'd accept that. Pity the initial press reports left out the 'key phrase', huh? Could havw saved a lot of side-tracking here... |
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Its a Secret
Whatever
Premium
join:2008-02-23
U B Funny | reply to Link Logger
That would make far more sense. Thanks. |
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Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
·Shaw
| reply to sailor
I understand the concerns over who was 'driving' the conversation, but the ICE Group are pros and take a neutral position in the conversation and let the other person drive the conversation (everything is recorded for the trial of course, so everyone can see what was said and happening). Now one conversation certainly doesn't demonstrate motivation, so these cases typically involve a series of conversations where the end intent is very clear.
Walking down the street and saying 'Hello' in passing to and undercover vice cop isn't going to land you in jail sort of thing, there has to be clear intent before anything can be done, otherwise the courts get upset for wasting their time as well as the department's time and resources.
Blake
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mattmag
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-04-09
NW Illinois
clubs:
·Mediacom
| reply to fatness
said by fatness :Is there a more complete description of that statute? Everyone on this website is guilty of using a computer to communicate with a person they believe is under 18. We have thousands of young members. There are specific things that must be intended on the part of the offender, and that must be established to even bring the charge.
At the risk of seriously turning some stomachs here, what I *can* tell you from first-hand experience is this: There isn't any type of luring on the part of the undercover person, and there is absolutely ZERO doubt on the part of the prosecutor that the offender;
A. Established in his mind the target was underage.
B. Established in the minds of all those participating what his specific intentions are.
And
C. Was fully aware that what he was trying to accomplish via the computer was illegal.
I recently attended a cyber-crime training class, and I came away with a whole new view of the Internet, and what it is capable of. I also was truly amazed, (and I consider myself to be an 'advanced' computer user with above-average knowledge) at how FAST and EASY it is for kids to be caught up in these perpetrations, and to become victims without much if any effort on their part.
As part of our lessons, we created user accounts on a couple popular chat-systems, and visited chat rooms. I kid you not, within a matter of minutes, ALL the class members had established communications with predatory subjects, and could have quite easily gathered enough information to begin good legal cases against many of them.
Incredible. And sickening if you think too much about it. |
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peterboro1
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON
| reply to Its a Secret
I was thinking the same thing.
What does the section of the criminal code he was charged under say?
Funny we just charged the age of consent from 14 to 16.
Glad I'm not in high school now. |
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Its a Secret
Whatever
Premium
join:2008-02-23
U B Funny
·Shaw
| said by peterboro1 :Funny we just charged the age of consent from 14 to 16. Glad I'm not in high school now. But, that doesn't apply if you are within 2 years of age of each other. But, you're right. A 17 YO guy seeing a 14 YO gal... The potential is not good.
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"In the future, that which is not mandatory will be illegal"
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everybody agrees that it is old enough to know better" - Anonymous |
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pog
Premium
join:2004-06-03
Kihei, HI
·Hawaiian Telcom
| reply to dave
There are lots of areas where "intent" plays a huge role... but we are seeing more and more where the intent, itself, is the crime and nothing else needs to have happened. Or, whatever actually happened may not be a felony, unless there's a certain intent.
Intent, in murder cases, is obviously very important... but the fact that someone died is the issue at hand. Intent, in assault cases, becomes extremely important if "hate crime" laws are invoked... still, there's an actual assault that occurred.
In these underage internet luring cases, I suspect we are sacrificing fairness for the sake of economics and feasibility. "Economics" because it's cheaper to grab some chat text/etc than monitor someone for months, waiting to catch them in the act. "Feasibility" because it's virtually impossible to be a 3rd party monitoring real conversations between suspects and actual underage kids.
What worries me about these kinds of cases is that the public's outrage over actual crimes of this nature is being used to obtain seemingly-knee-jerk approval for these tactics.
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