Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop in Security http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r22548347 en Mon, 30 Nov 2009 21:59:43 EDT Mon, 30 Nov 2009 21:59:43 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22830787 Steve :
said by linicx See Profile :

The law calls this pedophilia.
It does so incorrectly: it's actually ephebophilia.

I think most of us see a material difference between sexual attraction to a 5 year old, and to a 17 year old.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22830787 Fri, 07 Aug 2009 12:09:48 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22828857 linicx : kelseysmom,

You plead an eloquent case. The elephant in the room is the law. He was the adult. She was a child. The law calls this pedophilia. The fine points of this case have yet to be litigated.

This poor misunderstood cop would not be the only man in the world that let testosterone over-ride good judgement, an unblemished career, a marriage with children, public service, the rule of law or good intentions.

He did.

When he clicked 'send' he opened a can of worms that probably ruined his own career. Worst scenario is the case is dismissed and so is he. What kind of a job is an ex-cop with a reputation of a "pedophile" going to get? Who will employ him? What is is life worth? Cops hate pedophiles as much as cons do. You cannot put them in general prison population. And regardless of where he moves, there will always be someone who remembers the Internet story.

The repercussion is not a lot different than the people who genuinely believe Obama is a Muslim and his Birth Certificate from Hawaii is a fake. .

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Mac: No windows, No Gates, Apple inside]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22828857 Thu, 06 Aug 2009 23:52:15 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22822108 major marco :
said by Link Logger See Profile :

[...] I still maintain and believe that 99.9999% of cops are good guys [...]
In Canuckistan maybe, but down here it's more like 50%. Law enforcement has entirely too many discretionary powers and gains more with each passing day. Case in point: Tasering. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22822108 Wed, 05 Aug 2009 21:45:06 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22818679 Link Logger : Fortunately we have a legal system and he will get his day in court, however I will say the ICE team is pretty diligent in their efforts and investigations so the trial should prove interesting.

As a follow up to another case against another local retire officer and child porn:

»www.calgarysun.com/news/alberta/···sun.html

quote:
Former Calgary cop Steve Huggett had no legitimate reason for collecting child porn, a judge said yesterday in sentencing him to nine months in jail.

Provincial court Judge Barb Veldhuis rejected Huggett's claim he was only keeping the material as part of an ongoing, clandestine investigation to stamp out child pornography.

Veldhuis noted Huggett, a 25-year veteran of the Calgary Police Service, never attempted to pass on information to superiors, or other investigators.


Again let me say I think Calgary has one of the best and most professional police departments going and every interaction I've had with them has left me suitably impressed.

Blake
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Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22818679 Wed, 05 Aug 2009 11:32:16 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22812090 kelseysmom : this was just sent to me, & i too know him & he is an outstanding police officer. he eats, sleeps & breathes the police force . he has received many commendations for his dedication to the citizens of calgary. you CANNOT lump a 4 year old & a 17 year old in the same category. it's like a speeding ticket. if you are caught doin 55 in a 50, your ticket (if you get one) will be far less, than if you were doin 100 in a 50. this young man is NOT a pedophile & it saddens me to know that he is being treated as one. who's doin the luring here? he rejected the offer of this "girl" sending him pics, until she was of age. this "girl" repeatedly lured him into sayin yes. who's the stalker here? how is the law that he COULD have sexual relations with a 16 year old, but not allowed to possess a picture of a 17 year old, fair? if he would have met this "girl" at a party & had sex with her, that would have been ok. a pedophile would not wait until the fall to ask for a picture, like it was stated in the news. if he was a REAL pedophile, would he have said that? it's unfortunate that he will loose everything thing he has worked so hard for, over one line in a conversation. if you do something right, no one remembers, you do something wrong, no one forgets. he does NOT deserve this Crucifixion. they are going after the wrong guy & the city of calgary will loose a great police officer.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22812090 Tue, 04 Aug 2009 10:18:52 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22653963 Link Logger : To follow up further there is a case against a retired cop who was charge with possession of child pornography which is in the courts now. The retired officer claims that he was on a one man crusade to save the victims:

»www.calgaryherald.com/news/Retir···ory.html

Now certainly I understand the personal belief for a one man crusade, however the system exists for a reason and that is to follow the 'rules' etc of investigation and its legal process and so while I'm convinced this retired officer is not a pedophile, he should have known better then to launch a one man crusade, and particularly in this area, as possession is possession and illegal regardless of the reason outside of a legitimate investigation. I believe he will be convicted and sentenced to jail time (not less then 90 days) and perhaps a couple years probation to ensure he doesn't launch any other one man crusades. I have my own doubts about him registering as sex offender as this person doesn't sound like a predator.

One has to be careful that personal beliefs don't cloud the reality of some situations.

Blake
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Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22653963 Sat, 04 Jul 2009 14:03:00 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22653701 EGeezer :
said by Link Logger See Profile :

When this case goes to court, I'm looking forward to see the evidence the ICE team has collected ...
Blake


I agree - It would be interesting to see the evidence, including chat logs, forensic information and chain of custody, as well as the specific laws that will be applied.

If the evidence is properly gathered, verified and processed there should be a fair hearing, assuming a competent judge is presiding. If not, a good defense lawyer can get a guilty person off. Conversely a poor defense lawyer can leave an innocent person convicted on bad evidence.

I feel many law enforcement people, judges and prosecutors still have a long way to go in educating themselves on computer and technology based crimes and trials, particularly in rural and local jurisdictions. There should be better education and training in this area.

EDIT - As others have mentioned, even when someone is found innocent, they are still considered by many as "accused child molester/predator". That accusation is one that seems to stick with people regardless of the outcome.
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The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding. -- Justice Louis D. Brandeis]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22653701 Sat, 04 Jul 2009 12:44:29 EDT Re: Reply to lightbulb http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22653596 limehead : I agree with you. I too have worked with this man. I also know him on a personal level. He is open and honest. He is professional and responsible. He is not what the media is trying to make him. He is not a predator. It is unfortunate that he has made this mistake that will tarnish his reputation. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22653596 Sat, 04 Jul 2009 12:14:26 EDT Re: Reply to lightbulb http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22567978 anon : Good on you for speaking up. I also know him very well ,both in a professional and personal capacity. Not for one moment do I think or believe he is guilty of anything other than poor judgement. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22567978 Wed, 17 Jun 2009 17:18:16 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22563278 anon :
said by lightbulb :

I feel badly for the officer. He is an excellent, hard working cop. His service record is unblemished and I feel he's been given a bad rap. Sure, he was set up and showed poor judgment; but he does not deserve this public crucifixion. Internal discipline - perhaps. But criminal charges plastered in the media? He is not a public threat, nor is he a 'child' predator. The media perception of this officer is gross. I hope this young officer maintains his position on the force. He is a great asset to his department.
Being Telus you're out west so you may know him.
Seems weird that he can have sex with her legally yet be charged for asking her to send a pic.
The criminal code needs some reform in this context.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22563278 Tue, 16 Jun 2009 22:17:23 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22563115 anon : I do know him. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22563115 Tue, 16 Jun 2009 21:49:49 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22563041 Blue2 :
said by lightbulb :

I feel badly for the officer. He is an excellent, hard working cop. His service record is unblemished and I feel he's been given a bad rap. Sure, he was set up and showed poor judgment; but he does not deserve this public crucifixion.
Do you know this officer or is this just a general impression? I'm still not sure that precisely what he did has been reported, so how do you know if that rap is appropriate or not? Was he specifically set up, and if so, why? Without all the facts, I make no assumptions other than that there was some presumed basis for his arrest.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22563041 Tue, 16 Jun 2009 21:31:08 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22562692 anon : I feel badly for the officer. He is an excellent, hard working cop. His service record is unblemished and I feel he's been given a bad rap. Sure, he was set up and showed poor judgment; but he does not deserve this public crucifixion. Internal discipline - perhaps. But criminal charges plastered in the media? He is not a public threat, nor is he a 'child' predator. The media perception of this officer is gross. I hope this young officer maintains his position on the force. He is a great asset to his department.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22562692 Tue, 16 Jun 2009 20:41:03 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22559766 peterboro1 :
said by fatness See Profile :

The 4 seasons in Canada are Winter, Winter, Construction, and Winter.
+1]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22559766 Tue, 16 Jun 2009 12:07:15 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22558612 fatness : That's part makes me angry about police or judicial misconduct. Currently in MD there are convictions being challenged and thrown out due, if I'm remembering correctly, either to falsified drug test results or mishandling/misrepresenting/planting of evidence, all due to proven misconduct by one person. People who would likely have been convicted, fairly, are walking because of the misconduct of one person. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22558612 Tue, 16 Jun 2009 08:43:17 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22558109 Blue2 :
said by SnowyOne See Profile :

I'm late getting to this thread but I'd think if found guilty it would trump anything the officer had previously accomplished.
And sadly, perhaps even provide grounds for appeals on trials he might have been involved in. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22558109 Tue, 16 Jun 2009 03:27:15 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22556936 SnowyOne :
said by Link Logger See Profile :

This young man has worked hard to get onto the force and has a good record as an officer, but if he is found guilty it will cast a shadow over a lot of positive things he has done in his past.
I'm late getting to this thread but I'd think if found guilty it would trump anything the officer had previously accomplished.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22556936 Mon, 15 Jun 2009 21:52:49 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22556910 Link Logger : When this case goes to court, I'm looking forward to see the evidence the ICE team has collected and perhaps I'll show up in court to hear it presented, but typically once the accused sees the amount of evidence which has been collected, they plead guilty as they know their guilty and that someone else knows their guilty and can prove it. This young man has worked hard to get onto the force and has a good record as an officer, but if he is found guilty it will cast a shadow over a lot of positive things he has done in his past.

Are newspapers etc going to give all the facts and such, nope but it in effect lets you know whats going on so if you wish to go sit in court and get the details and such you can, one of the things I like about our system is public trials. Sometimes a visit to your local court house to see the system in action can be very interesting.

Blake
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Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22556910 Mon, 15 Jun 2009 21:46:56 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22556560 jarthur31 : When are you people ever going to go after the Catholic priests???!!!

They've been getting away with this depravity for over 800 years. Do you not care?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22556560 Mon, 15 Jun 2009 20:32:18 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22556307 Blue2 : As facts are released, the basis for this particular arrest will become clearer. But to question such arrests with the claim that they might unreasonably "piss on the lives of people" appears to be unsupported by statistics.

The US Department of Justice states that on child pornography prosecutions from 1992 to date: "In 89 percent of the cases, the defendants either pled guilty or were found guilty at trial. Of the remaining cases, approximately 8 percent were dismissed, 3 percent were terminated for other reasons, and 0.5 percent resulted in acquittals." »www.usdoj.gov/oig/reports/plus/e···ults.htm

That's an extremely low acquittal rate for any crime, suggesting that either a judge summarily dismisses the case for lack of evidence OR the case proceeds with the defendant pleading guility or being convicted. So if they have enough evidence to get you to trial, your chances are not good.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22556307 Mon, 15 Jun 2009 19:47:23 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22556222 fatness : The 4 seasons in Canada are Winter, Winter, Construction, and Winter. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22556222 Mon, 15 Jun 2009 19:33:38 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22556216 dave : Probably a bad translation from Canadian to American.

(What do Canadians call the season between Summer and Winter, anyway?)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22556216 Mon, 15 Jun 2009 19:32:42 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22556171 Its a Secret :
said by fatness See Profile :

This article says...*snip*
Blame it on the education system; folks can't read at graduation...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22556171 Mon, 15 Jun 2009 19:24:58 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22556055 fatness :
said by Steve See Profile :

Ok, something doesn't look right. From the article, it says "with the intention of having the victim supply photographs this fall".
This article says " It is alleged that Sargent used an Internet chat service to ask a girl he thought was 17 to take photographs of herself "that fall within the definition of child pornography.'' "
»www.canada.com/Calgary+police+of···ory.html]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22556055 Mon, 15 Jun 2009 19:06:11 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22555898 linicx :
said by Steve See Profile :

said by linicx See Profile :

There is no room for that kind of blur in this job title.
Well, there probably should be. Most of us would distinguish somehow between the sexual assault of a four year old, and a gal willingly fooling around a month before she turns 18.

I'm not sure how one codifies it, but it's hard to call them "the same thing".

Steve
The problem is they are both minor children in the eyes of the law until the second they attain majority age. It makes no difference if they were 4 or 17 years, 29 days, 23 hour old; neither is old enough to consent. They wee both minors in the eyes of the law. IF the cop believed she would be majority age in one month, he should have left the chat room for 31 days. But, just like a hungry fish, he took the bait and got caught.

Is the act toward one more horrific than the other? Sure it is, but it does not change the law or the facts. The cop was not looking for a consenting adult. He was looking for a child. .

Cops are supposed to serve and protect the public. The law didn't blur and neither did the cop. He knew what he was doing when he sat down at the computer.

The two pedophiles I knew both said the same thing. "I don't ______ children." The father said, "I would kill any guy who touched my daughter."
His brother and father were pedophiles and he was raped when he was a child by his uncle. His brother was in jail for the same thing when the father was arrested.

Pedophiles cannot be rehabilitated and they can't be put in general population in prison. You would be surprised how fast these two grabbed a bible and started quoting. And in X years they will be back in society doing the same thing until they die. Hopefully it will be soon.

The saddest part of this story is every one of these adult men with adult urges had an adult choice they did not make.
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Mac: No windows, No Gates, Apple inside]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22555898 Mon, 15 Jun 2009 18:39:46 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22555590 Steve :
said by linicx See Profile :

There is no room for that kind of blur in this job title.
Well, there probably should be. Most of us would distinguish somehow between the sexual assault of a four year old, and a gal willingly fooling around a month before she turns 18.

I'm not sure how one codifies it, but it's hard to call them "the same thing".

Steve
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Stephen J. Friedl | Unix Wizard | Microsoft Security MVP | Orange County, California USA | my web site]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22555590 Mon, 15 Jun 2009 17:43:27 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22555378 linicx :
said by Link Logger See Profile :

One of the reasons why I couldn't be a cop is when you have to deal with all the stuff they deal with day in and day out you can become a little desensitized and the line between right and wrong can become a little blurry so it takes real effort sometimes to maintain that line.
I have to gently argue this point. There is no reason for an adult Law Enforcement Officer to blur the line between a consenting adult and a minor child of any age. There is no room for that kind of blur in this job title.
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Mac: No windows, No Gates, Apple inside]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22555378 Mon, 15 Jun 2009 17:05:14 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22555187 Blue2 : I promptly corrected my error. Mea culpa. Mea culpa. Mea maxima culpa. Perhaps it was too much to expect absolution. In any case, "You don't even know what you are writing." does seem like a slight exaggeration.

Many assumptions were strewn hroughout this thread and I pointed them out, though I in no way suggested that they all came from you.

As far as I know, this thread was not started as a theoretical exercise, but for reporting a particular news item. That item provides no information, so there can be no answers only speculation. If this is just a general discussion about the trampling of civil liberties, due process, intent versus actions, etc. this threadbare news story would hardly seem to be much of a catalyst.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22555187 Mon, 15 Jun 2009 16:31:07 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22554942 pog :
said by Blue2 See Profile :

Why woud you assume that a police officer was arrested without probable cause? That's just unlikely.
I've made no such assumptions... and, for the last time, I am not talking only about this case.
But assuming that it was just a "thoughtcrime' is insulting until you know what he did or did not do.
I've made no such assumptions.
I don't think I ever mentioned "dead childen" and I'm no "pedophile" crusader.
... but I provided the quote to what you said. I guess I expected too much. You don't even know what you are writing... so how can I expect you to understand what I write?
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My Site]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22554942 Mon, 15 Jun 2009 15:51:47 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22554739 Blue2 : Many comments here were based on pure unsubstantiated speculation: he might be innocent, he might have been targeted, he might have been entrapped. All you know is what little they chose to report: he was arrested, by whom and about what. Why woud you assume that a police officer was arrested without probable cause? That's just unlikely.

What I do know is what ICE does. So I assume it is a crime in their jurisdiction and it could relate to any of the following including "child luring": "The British Columbia Integrated Child Exploitation Team (ICE) is responsible for coordinating and investigating internet based exploitation of children. The investigator’s role encompasses investigations pertaining to accessing, possession, importation, exportation, production and distribution of child pornography, as well as child luring and sex tourism investigations." »bc.rcmp.ca/ViewPage.action?siteN···tId=8862

As for statistics, by chance the link amysheehan provided for ICE was for a different organization (US Immigration and Customs Enforcement). But 28% of THAT organization's latest news items (7 out of 25) related to convictions or arrests for child pornography, and 2 of them hold official jobs, a U.N. employee (arrested) and former NYC cop. (convicted). »www.ice.gov/pi/news/newsreleases···ubmit=Go So that either means they're focusing more on these crimes or there are more of them being reported.

Sensational headlines sell newspapers, but they also deliver the message that child-related crimes are perpetrated by anyone, including cops and priests. (The later took a long time to come out as priests don't get arrested. The Oscar-nominated documentary Deliver Us From Evil shows the extraordinary lengths to which the Catholic Church went to prevent that. »farm.imdb.com/title/tt0814075/). So not being arrrested, doesn't imply innocence either.

So, at no time did I state any opinion on this arrest, since I've been given no facts, just mention of his arrest. That's what courts decide. But assuming that it was just a "thoughtcrime' is insulting until you know what he did or did not do.

I don't think I ever mentioned "dead childen" (Edit: I stand corrected. I did mention it, not to be sensational, but to explain why charges are brought quickly.) and I'm no "pedophile" crusader. But given the sensitive nature of an investigation of one of their own, I'd be surprised if they charged him without enough to convict.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22554739 Mon, 15 Jun 2009 15:15:18 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22554697 sailor :
said by N3OGH See Profile :

Who hasn't seen Chris Hanson on "To Catch a Predator" at this point?
True but what about those busted on the show in the sting operation who either had all charges dropped or were found not guilty? Due to the way they conducted the sting those who were truly innocent still were portrayed as guilty and basically had their lives ruined, being humilatated, jobs lost, photos in the papers and even on television etc. This all before even being arraigned. And then down the road when charges are dropped or individuals arrested are found not guilty does the sting operation participants go back on the air and publicly announce the names of those who were found not guilty or had charges dropped? NO!....are they looking to save some kids or are they looking for high ratings and advertising fees?....I say ratings.....Finally, like I mentioned earlier, there is a fine line between good law enforcement and entrapment and these kinds of shows obviously have crossed that line. Go after the pervs and not after the ratings is where I stand on this.

__

Validity of Murphy predator stings under scrutiny

The town of Murphy in Collin County became big news last fall after it was the location for a highly publicized sting designed to catch sexual predators, which became the subject of two NBC To Catch a Predator shows. The sting was also behind the suicide of a former Kaufman County district attorney.

However, information has arisen that indicates that after the television crews left, little happened to the alleged sexual predators.

While there were 24 arrests, little has become of the cases. Reports also reveal that the legality of the sting was questioned before it went down, and that a key search warrant was invalid.

The news has led critics, inside and outside the legal system, to ask whether the sting was about law enforcement or making a TV show.

»www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/w···c39.html

_____

Charges dropped

In June 2007, Perverted-Justice was criticized following a sting operation in Collin County, Texas, that resulted in the charges against 23 suspected online sex predators being dropped. Collin County Assistant District Attorney Greg Davis said the cases were dropped after Perverted-Justice failed to provide enough usable evidence.

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Catch_a_Predator]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22554697 Mon, 15 Jun 2009 15:04:49 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22554501 pog :
said by Blue2 See Profile :

No, people shouldn't be unfairly targeted and there is a "bigger picture", but NOTHING presented here suggests he was targeted or entrapped. Discussions of this guy's guilt or innocence go nowhere since we have no facts.
Irrelevant. I'm not being specific about this case.

Law enforcement is infiltrating chat rooms these days because child crimes, sex trafficking, etc. are on the rise and they'd rather charge and let a jury decide guilt/innocence than wait for a few more dead children. Protecting children often takes precedence.
You are not going to like this one bit...

a) how do we know these crimes are "on the rise"? or do we only know that the internet plays more and more of a role in such crimes? If these crimes actually are on the rise, is the increase proportional to general population increases (by region, etc)?

b) invoking "dead children" should not give automatic license to piss on the lives of other people.

The "tight skirt" comment was a reference to the often used defense in rape trials that the victim was wearing a tight skirt, suggesting that she "wanted it". This male-oriented mentality reached new lows in Italy a few years ago ...
The only possible way this can make sense in this thread is if you are suggesting that I believe kids participating in chat rooms want to be abused.

I take stories for what they are. ...
Okey dokey.

Can you comprehend that, to me, the original story is simply a catalyst for general discussion?

I enjoyed Link Logger See Profile's earlier response to me... it makes sense and addresses what I was concerned about. Not sure what you could possibly add to it anyway.
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My Site]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22554501 Mon, 15 Jun 2009 14:22:02 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22554468 N3OGH : It's not the THOUGHT that's illegal, it's the INTENT.

You can think whatever you want. What goes on between your ears is your own business.

I would love to see the chat logs on this one. I seriously doubt he was asking her for pictures from last year's class visit to the local science museum. I'm sure the chat logs reveal something a bit more lurid in nature.

From a prosecutorial standpoint, I think it's a bit flimsy. Especially since he wanted the pictures "in October". If he had reasonable grounds to believe she would be 18 in October, he MIGHT have a defense.

From the arresting officer's standpoint, I see the reasons for acting now instead of later. Here you have a police officer, with tremendous authority over other people and their children and he may be a sexual predator. IMHO, once you get enough to get yourself in the door from a legal standpoint, you get your ass in there and see what this guy's up to before someone gets hurt for real.

If there's nothing more here, this guy probably walks. I'm guessing those computers are chock full of kiddy porn, and this guy has no business wearing a badge.

Besides, WTF? You're 26 for Christ sake. Why the hell are you talking to 18 year olds on the internet?

I mean, really. Who hasn't seen Chris Hanson on "To Catch a Predator" at this point?
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Petty people are disproportionably corrupted by petty power…]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22554468 Mon, 15 Jun 2009 14:13:45 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22554424 GyroCaptain :
Now I still maintain and believe that 99.9999% of cops are good guys
Now THATS funny!!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22554424 Mon, 15 Jun 2009 14:07:23 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22553860 Cabal : Thoughtcrime.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22553860 Mon, 15 Jun 2009 12:20:51 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22552798 dave :
said by Blue2 See Profile :

What exactly do the more "clued-in members" want? To know that his rights weren't violated?
Well, yes. They way you say that makes it sound like a bad thing.

It isn't "sympathy for the criminal" that makes me ask these sort of questions, it's concern for the continued functioning of society - you know, proper laws and all that.

My interest in this thread has been that I don't understand how the law operates in this area, that on the surface (and due to the superficial media reports) it looks pretty sketchy. So I ask questions. You're right, I could go read the records, but on the other hand, there are at least a couple of people in this forum who can and have explained it pretty well, so why not ask here? It educates us all.

What's next, "She was wearing a tight skirt so she probably wanted it"?
This is unworthy in a serious discussion.

FYI, due process is NOT violated by your being charged with a crime.
Maybe not. Only the other hand, it is undeniable that your life will probably suffer if you are falsely accused of such a crime.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22552798 Mon, 15 Jun 2009 08:33:29 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22552744 fatness :
said by Link Logger See Profile :

At some point one has to consider the victim, for example it is far better for the victim if someone is convicted for conspiracy to commit murder, rather then murder (ie the intended victim can attend the trial as something other then cold evidence :)).
I don't think that applies in this case, does it? Who was the victim? ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22552744 Mon, 15 Jun 2009 08:18:58 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22552685 Blue2 : No, people shouldn't be unfairly targeted and there is a "bigger picture", but NOTHING presented here suggests he was targeted or entrapped. Discussions of this guy's guilt or innocence go nowhere since we have no facts. Law enforcement is infiltrating chat rooms these days because child crimes, sex trafficking, etc. are on the rise and they'd rather charge and let a jury decide guilt/innocence than wait for a few more dead children. Protecting children often takes precedence.

The ONLY reason that this is a sensationalist story is because he's a police officer ironically caught in his own department's sting operation. If it were you or me, no one would write about it, read about it or care.

It's also highly unlikely that the police department would unfairly "target" and arrest one of their own just to embarrass their own department. In fact, it's much more likely to be the reverse, the infamous law enforcement "code of silence".

The "tight skirt" comment was a reference to the often used defense in rape trials that the victim was wearing a tight skirt, suggesting that she "wanted it". This male-oriented mentality reached new lows in Italy a few years ago when what the VICTIM wore became the basis for a Supreme Court acquittal in a rape charge. The court declared that a woman who wore pants could NOT be raped. That male dominated court verdict caused worldwide outrage. »news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/277263.stm

I take stories for what they are. This isn't the New York Times or "60 Minutes" offering in-depth investigative analysis. So why expect anything more than just the the most basic details? This has already gotten far more attention that it merits. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22552685 Mon, 15 Jun 2009 07:51:41 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22552579 Link Logger :
said by pog See Profile :

Maybe part of my problem with this is really based on the dumbed-down-yet-lurid way it's portrayed in the media.
I agree Pog as I hate TV etc as they really corrupt the truth for their own means and needs (you have 22 minutes to tell the story and sell it in a half hour slot, reality and truth are often the first casualties and sensationalism the winner).

It has been my experience that the system does work at least more often then any other system I have heard of or can think of, so I'm generally a believe in the system.

Blake
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Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22552579 Mon, 15 Jun 2009 06:39:39 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22552556 anon : So now thought can be a crime?

said by dave See Profile :

But it's worse - it's communicating with someone you think is under 18. Presumably, as long as you didn't believe the person was under 18, the same conversation with the same person would be legal. Thus, it apparently depends on what was in the mind of the suspect at the time. This is scary.

(And before we go in that direction, can we discuss this without assuming I am somehow 'for' the rights of child predators?)
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22552556 Mon, 15 Jun 2009 06:38:54 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22552557 pog :
said by Blue2 See Profile :

said by pog See Profile :

The more clued-in members of the viewing audience, I guess, just want reassurance that due process and all that still exist.
What exactly do the more "clued-in members" want? To know that his rights weren't violated?
Well, yes. Wouldn't you want to believe that people get a fair shake and are not being unfairly targeted?

Anyway, it wasn't solely about "him" or the OP's article. I was talking about the whole concept of these stings, intent being the crime, no specific victim, and how careful/cavalier the police are with making sure they are finding the real bad guys... and not entrapping, exaggerating, etc.

So if you don't believe that there were legal grounds for charging him, then stop reading these sensationalist stories and start reading the public records.
I don't think I said anything specific about this particular case at all. There is a bigger picture, right?

What's next, "She was wearing a tight skirt so she probably wanted it"?
What does this have to do with anything?

So what have you read thus far that suggests to you that any of these elements of "due process" have not been met?
There's the "due process" part and then there's the rest of it that I referred to as "and all that". Do these stings produce the right evidence in the right way to put away the right people? I think it's a fair question given the glossed-over media coverage of cases like these... not just this particular case that you won't go beyond.
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My Site]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22552557 Mon, 15 Jun 2009 06:14:43 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22552530 Blue2 :
said by pog See Profile :

The more clued-in members of the viewing audience, I guess, just want reassurance that due process and all that still exist.
What exactly do the more "clued-in members" want? To know that his rights weren't violated? (Forget "her" rights.) You don't get that from a news brief, written to show the irony of a police officer got caught in his department's trap, but from the complaint sworn out for his arrest. So if you don't believe that there were legal grounds for charging him, then stop reading these sensationalist stories and start reading the public records.

What's next, "She was wearing a tight skirt so she probably wanted it"? A harmless chat with some teenage girl will NOT get you charged. But IF you know her to be underage, and IF your suggestions to her violate local statutes, it might. Law enforcement often looks for sexual predators in chat rooms.

FYI, due process is NOT violated by your being charged with a crime. If the charge is unsubstantiated, any good lawyer will get this thrown out in a heartbeat BEFORE it even gets to trail. Due process is your right to being informed of your rights, to being told what you have been charged with, to having legal counsel, and to having a trial. So what have you read thus far that suggests to you that any of these elements of "due process" have not been met? ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22552530 Mon, 15 Jun 2009 05:26:52 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22552486 Tzale :
said by Steve See Profile :

Ok, something doesn't look right. From the article, it says "with the intention of having the victim supply photographs this fall".

How many child predators would hold off asking for the goodies for months? Is it conceivable that during the fake-chat, the day of her birthday became known and "this fall" would have been after she turned 18?

Is it a crime to have sexy-talk with a minor and overtly plan for behavior that waits for the age of majority (putting aside the fact that it's just creepy)?
No, it is not illegal IMHO.

You can't commit a crime until you have actually done it.

-Tzale
--
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-:-
"I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism."~Ronald Reagan]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22552486 Mon, 15 Jun 2009 04:24:56 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22552469 pog : Maybe part of my problem with this is really based on the dumbed-down-yet-lurid way it's portrayed in the media. The more clued-in members of the viewing audience, I guess, just want reassurance that due process and all that still exist.

Your explanation helps! :)
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My Site]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22552469 Mon, 15 Jun 2009 04:00:49 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22552437 Link Logger : At some point one has to consider the victim, for example it is far better for the victim if someone is convicted for conspiracy to commit murder, rather then murder (ie the intended victim can attend the trial as something other then cold evidence :)). We certainly don't want children becoming active victims in the child pornography business, as the recovery process for them can be difficult, if not impossible, so hunting down and taking out a recruiter (on a lesser charge, solicitation or conspiracy etc) is actually a better deal overall then nailing the perv after the fact. Now to make these charges stick you really have to prove that execution of the crime is the genuine intent/motive, and only a matter of time or opportunity before the actual crime is committed. Now Judges of course take into consideration the fact the crime hasn't actually occurred, but legally they are bound to the laws of the land which often state that motive, intent, etc are enough to prosecute in some crimes (usually with a lessor charge).

So sitting in a chat room calling some girl a hottie (if it is in fact actually a girl :o) and asking for a photo (like its her photo anyways), doesn't prove intent to engage her in kiddie porn as say compared to repeated chat sessions offering/planning to meet/take/get photo's of her in described positions, levels of nudity, sexual acts, etc, after asking numerous questions about her age and supporting questions meant to further disclose her age, perhaps offering payment or other forms of remuneration/gifts etc, huge huge difference. As Chris Rock said, if your doing this, then you deserve to get your ass kicked by the police, or in a legal society, incarcerated. Now everyone gets their chance in court and is innocent til proven guilty so the onus is on the prosecution team to do their work. Now this system might not be prefect, but its the best I know of, so I'm going with it until someone convinces me that they have a better system.

Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22552437 Mon, 15 Jun 2009 03:16:39 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22552422 amysheehan : Just for reference: In the US - ICE is Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency-

»74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:c8···nk&gl=us
--
Proud Member of ASAP
DSLR Phishtracker]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22552422 Mon, 15 Jun 2009 03:02:50 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22552395 BurntCricket :
said by fatness See Profile :

Is there a more complete description of that statute? Everyone on this website is guilty of using a computer to communicate with a person they believe is under 18. We have thousands of young members.
That's why I stated they are going to need a lot more prisons.
--
It is better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22552395 Mon, 15 Jun 2009 02:30:52 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22552388 pog : There are lots of areas where "intent" plays a huge role... but we are seeing more and more where the intent, itself, is the crime and nothing else needs to have happened. Or, whatever actually happened may not be a felony, unless there's a certain intent.

Intent, in murder cases, is obviously very important... but the fact that someone died is the issue at hand. Intent, in assault cases, becomes extremely important if "hate crime" laws are invoked... still, there's an actual assault that occurred.

In these underage internet luring cases, I suspect we are sacrificing fairness for the sake of economics and feasibility. "Economics" because it's cheaper to grab some chat text/etc than monitor someone for months, waiting to catch them in the act. "Feasibility" because it's virtually impossible to be a 3rd party monitoring real conversations between suspects and actual underage kids.

What worries me about these kinds of cases is that the public's outrage over actual crimes of this nature is being used to obtain seemingly-knee-jerk approval for these tactics.
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My Site]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22552388 Mon, 15 Jun 2009 02:22:37 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22552221 Its a Secret :
said by peterboro1 See Profile :


Funny we just charged the age of consent from 14 to 16.
Glad I'm not in high school now.
But, that doesn't apply if you are within 2 years of age of each other. But, you're right. A 17 YO guy seeing a 14 YO gal... The potential is not good.
--
"In the future, that which is not mandatory will be illegal"
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everybody agrees that it is old enough to know better" - Anonymous]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22552221 Mon, 15 Jun 2009 00:54:31 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22552202 peterboro1 :
said by Its a Secret See Profile :

I find it interesting that Canada has a consensual sex law that is 16. Citations:
• »www.parl.gc.ca/information/libra···LAW(txt)
• »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_co···a#Canada
How did this cop lure, and what did she say her age was?
I was thinking the same thing.
What does the section of the criminal code he was charged under say?
Funny we just charged the age of consent from 14 to 16.
Glad I'm not in high school now.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22552202 Mon, 15 Jun 2009 00:47:10 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22551814 mattmag :
said by fatness See Profile :

Is there a more complete description of that statute? Everyone on this website is guilty of using a computer to communicate with a person they believe is under 18. We have thousands of young members.
There are specific things that must be intended on the part of the offender, and that must be established to even bring the charge.

At the risk of seriously turning some stomachs here, what I *can* tell you from first-hand experience is this: There isn't any type of luring on the part of the undercover person, and there is absolutely ZERO doubt on the part of the prosecutor that the offender;

A. Established in his mind the target was underage.

B. Established in the minds of all those participating what his specific intentions are.

And

C. Was fully aware that what he was trying to accomplish via the computer was illegal.

I recently attended a cyber-crime training class, and I came away with a whole new view of the Internet, and what it is capable of. I also was truly amazed, (and I consider myself to be an 'advanced' computer user with above-average knowledge) at how FAST and EASY it is for kids to be caught up in these perpetrations, and to become victims without much if any effort on their part.

As part of our lessons, we created user accounts on a couple popular chat-systems, and visited chat rooms. I kid you not, within a matter of minutes, ALL the class members had established communications with predatory subjects, and could have quite easily gathered enough information to begin good legal cases against many of them.

Incredible. And sickening if you think too much about it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22551814 Sun, 14 Jun 2009 23:09:40 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22551698 Link Logger : I understand the concerns over who was 'driving' the conversation, but the ICE Group are pros and take a neutral position in the conversation and let the other person drive the conversation (everything is recorded for the trial of course, so everyone can see what was said and happening). Now one conversation certainly doesn't demonstrate motivation, so these cases typically involve a series of conversations where the end intent is very clear.

Walking down the street and saying 'Hello' in passing to and undercover vice cop isn't going to land you in jail sort of thing, there has to be clear intent before anything can be done, otherwise the courts get upset for wasting their time as well as the department's time and resources.

Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22551698 Sun, 14 Jun 2009 22:47:30 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22551614 Its a Secret : That would make far more sense. Thanks.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22551614 Sun, 14 Jun 2009 22:34:15 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22551590 dave : Yeah, I'd accept that. Pity the initial press reports left out the 'key phrase', huh? Could havw saved a lot of side-tracking here...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22551590 Sun, 14 Jun 2009 22:30:51 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22551576 Link Logger :
said by dave See Profile :

This wording is slightly more specific:

The officer, Const. Randann Scott Sargent, was arrested on Thursday and charged with one count of using a computer system to communicate with a person he believed to be under the age of 18 years for the purpose of facilitating the commission of an offence.
»www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/···ged.html
The key phrase here is 'facilitating the commission of an offence', so think along the lines of actively recruiting someone as a source for underage porn photos.

It is better to nip these as soon as possible as the impact on the minor involved can likely be fixed, as compared to the impact it might have on them after the photo's are taken and released (ie get in the business).

Blake
Sorry to be late posting this but I was distracted for a couple of hours while putting together this reply.
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22551576 Sun, 14 Jun 2009 22:28:18 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22551552 sailor : Good point.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22551552 Sun, 14 Jun 2009 22:22:08 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22551538 fatness :
said by Blue2 See Profile :

Pctures were not part of the specific charge: "one count of using a computer system to communicate with a person he believed to be under the age of 18 years."
Is there a more complete description of that statute? Everyone on this website is guilty of using a computer to communicate with a person they believe is under 18. We have thousands of young members.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22551538 Sun, 14 Jun 2009 22:19:33 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22551389 Its a Secret : I find it interesting that Canada has a consensual sex law that is 16. Citations:

• »www.parl.gc.ca/information/libra···LAW(txt)

• »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_co···a#Canada

How did this cop lure, and what did she say her age was?
--
"In the future, that which is not mandatory will be illegal"
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everybody agrees that it is old enough to know better" - Anonymous]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22551389 Sun, 14 Jun 2009 21:55:02 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22551325 sailor :
said by La Luna See Profile :

There are bad doctors, bad lawyers, bad computer scientists, so why not a few bad cops? I don't think this is abnormal, meaning it doesn't surprise me when a few are caught here and there doing things they shouldn't. In the end, people are still people, with all their flaws no matter what their profession is.
I'm with you. It is a illness and like cancer, does not matter if you are a celebrity or a brick layer or what. I remember a couple of years ago a very respected and well liked real estate guy out in The Hamptons got busted for having kiddie porn and people who knew him expressed disbelief. There just had to be a mistake they all said.

Turns out he was sick and admitted so after being busted and last I heard is doing time. These individuals should be treated for their disease/illness while they are imprisoned and shouldn't be just in there to serve time and get out again...they need help.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22551325 Sun, 14 Jun 2009 21:41:05 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22551260 sailor :
said by BurntCricket See Profile :

Some questions I would need answered if it was a Jury trial and I was a Juror:

Which person was leading the conversation?
That first one you listed is a very good question..Think if someone is in a chat room and someone posing as a teen says something like .."I'm HOT" and who knows, maybe the guy said something like..."Yeah, sure you are, now scram" and she replies, "I really am HOT, wanna see" and he says" Yeah, next fall now get out of here"

I doubt what I listed above is what actually went down but I can recall when they used Miss America she mentioned how in a long IM she had with a guy they ended up busting she admitted being flirty. There is a fine line between good police work and entrapment.

We all hear of these arrest but how many of those arrested get convicted? I have read where quite a number of those arrested had charges dropped later.

Make no mistake I, like everyone else here, want to see pervs who are found guilty placed behind bars but you have to wonder at times if after a guy gets arrested and then his attorney gets a record of the chat room or the IM then suddenly the charges get dismissed but we never hear about that.

I mean using a Miss America in a police operation is not what I call good law enforcement. But it generates much publicity.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22551260 Sun, 14 Jun 2009 21:28:25 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22550712 BurntCricket : Some questions I would need answered if it was a Jury trial and I was a Juror:

Which person was leading the conversation?
Did he think she was under age?
Did he ask for "dirty" pictures of her, thinking she was under age?
Did he try to arrange a meeting with the purpose of an action that was illegal under the laws of the Province ?
If this meeting was arranged, was it carried out?

If simply communicating with a person that is under age(regardless of the content of those conversations) is illegal, they are going to need to build a lot more prisons.
--
It is better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22550712 Sun, 14 Jun 2009 19:13:24 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22550707 Blue2 : Pctures were not part of the specific charge: "one count of using a computer system to communicate with a person he believed to be under the age of 18 years."

You assume that the pictures are the issue, and the article suggests that it was the nature of his conversation with a suspected minor that brought the charges. If so, that conversation won't be published, but presented at trial. So it's unikely you will ever be able to "judge" his crime. That is what a judge/jury will do.

I don't understand what the point is in contesting the use of someone who is not a minor to pose as a minor. What can they use as "bait", a real child? Undercover cops pretend to be drug dealers too, but you don't call them "drug dealers who don't exist". You call them decoys.

Even if they considered for a minute to use minors for such operations, no doubt they would be guilty of corrupting a minor, exactly what they are attempting to protect against.

So as I understand it, the girl existed, she was of legal age but pretending to be a minor, and pictures have nothing to do with the crime he was charged with. Nothing in any of that surprises me or causes me concern. He'll get his day in court.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22550707 Sun, 14 Jun 2009 19:12:41 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22550580 fatness :
said by Blue2 See Profile :

So I can only imagine that once the decoy stated that she was under 18 and he continued and pursued his conversation, he was caught.
I imagine if that did not occur there will be no conviction. It's hard to imagine a conviction on the basis of a girl who didn't exist, an (under)age which wasn't stated, and pictures that didn't exist.

When is trial scheduled? It'll be interesting to find out more details as time goes by.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22550580 Sun, 14 Jun 2009 18:37:57 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22550343 sailor :
said by Blue2 See Profile :

Of course she was a "pretend" teenage girl, because I'm assuming that this was a "sting" operation. They don't use underage teens for that, but cops who pretend to be underage.

Or Miss America

»origin.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,···,00.html
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22550343 Sun, 14 Jun 2009 17:32:08 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22550260 Blue2 :
said by dave See Profile :

But you're still missing my point. "Her" actual age was was NOT known to the perp, and if her age had been known, no crime would have been comitted, as far as I can tell ...
I can't think of another crime where the existence of a crime depends on what the criminal thought.
Sorry, I think you are quite mistaken.

Plenty of crimes depend on what you "think". Your "intent" is used in all sting operations.You think you are buying nuclear weapons, drugs or propositioning a prostitute. However, there are no nuclear weapons, drugs or prostitutes for sale.

That is why the decoy is always prevented from baiting or entrapping those that they are after.

Your intent is the basis of the criminal activity, NOT whether the nucear weapon, drugs or prostitute are real.

By the way, adults can do play-acting, but in order for it NOT to be crime (at least in Calgary), I imagine that you would have to KNOW that the person to whom you are communicating is just play-acting and of legal age. You can't assume that she is play-acting and it was just a game, any more than you could when caught with drugs (Your honor, I thought it was "play drugs" or play "nuclear weapons", now could you?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22550260 Sun, 14 Jun 2009 17:11:04 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22550245 jabarnut :
said by NunyaBidness See Profile :

Around here they would call your bag of oregano "imitation of a controlled substance" and the sentence, if found guilty, is about the same as if it was the actual drug.
That does it.....I'm not buying any more oregano, no sir! :o
--
I had a life once.....now I have a Computer and a Modem.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22550245 Sun, 14 Jun 2009 17:08:16 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22550239 NunyaBidness :
said by dave See Profile :

...If I buy a bag of oregano on a street corner, I'm not guilty of buying marijuana just because I believed it was marijuana.
Around here they would call your bag of oregano "imitation of a controlled substance" and the sentence, if found guilty, is about the same as if it was the actual drug.
--
Nunya Bidness
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22550239 Sun, 14 Jun 2009 17:06:11 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22550235 Steve :
said by dave See Profile :

I can't think of another crime where the existence of a crime depends on what the criminal thought.
Employment discrimination.
Receiving stolen property.
Selling ordinary products that you know a customer will use to package illegal drugs (Pennsylvania)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22550235 Sun, 14 Jun 2009 17:05:30 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22550192 dave : This wording is slightly more specific:

The officer, Const. Randann Scott Sargent, was arrested on Thursday and charged with one count of using a computer system to communicate with a person he believed to be under the age of 18 years for the purpose of facilitating the commission of an offence.
»www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/···ged.html]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22550192 Sun, 14 Jun 2009 16:58:10 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22550172 dave : But you're still missing my point. "Her" actual age was was NOT known to the perp, and if her age had been known, no crime would have been comitted, as far as I can tell - I'm assuming it's not illegal for adults to play games where one party pretends to be something he/she is not, and the other party pretends to believe it.

I can't think of another crime where the existence of a crime depends on what the criminal thought. If I buy a bag of oregano on a street corner, I'm not guilty of buying marijuana just because I believed it was marijuana.

The only thing that comes close is 'hate crime', but that's different (I think) because the actual action is still a crime whether it's a hate crime or now. Categorizing it as hate crime only changes the penalty.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22550172 Sun, 14 Jun 2009 16:53:26 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22550155 Greg_Z : »www.sj-r.com/archive/x1518870071···nography
Follow up story: »www.sj-r.com/archive/x529237277/···-in-jail
2nd follow up story: »www.sj-r.com/archive/x313654536/···fighters
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I threw out the map a long time ago. Now I follow my own direction!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22550155 Sun, 14 Jun 2009 16:51:26 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22550131 kerriskandie : Reminds me of the joke: ( notthat this is a subject to be taken lightly......but)

"I met a 15 year old girl recently, whi I met online, in an internet chatroom, she was smart, sexy, alluring, and also a detective!!!

How cool is that, at her age"....................]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22550131 Sun, 14 Jun 2009 16:45:39 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22550127 Blue2 :
said by dave See Profile :

But it's worse - it's communicating with someone you think is under 18. Presumably, as long as you didn't believe the person was under 18, the same conversation with the same person would be legal.
I think you are missing the point here.

Of course she was a "pretend" teenage girl, because I'm assuming that this was a "sting" operation. They don't use underage teens for that, but cops who pretend to be underage.

So I can only imagine that once the decoy stated that she was under 18 and he continued and pursued his conversation, he was caught.

So it has nothing to do with what he believed, but that once her age was known to him, the nature of the converation became a crime in Calgary.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22550127 Sun, 14 Jun 2009 16:44:31 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22550104 Cudni :
said by dave See Profile :

Thus, it apparently depends on what was in the mind of the suspect at the time. This is scary.
it depends on the actions and preferably evidence from which reasonable persons can infer what was on the mind. until we can read minds what else is there?

Cudni
--
"what we know we know the same, what we don't know, we don't know it differently."
Help yourself so God can help you.
Microsoft MVP, 2006 - 2009]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22550104 Sun, 14 Jun 2009 16:39:39 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22550084 Tuulilapsi :
said by dave See Profile :

One thing I never quite understand in these operations - there was no teenage girl, so how can someone be charged with 'luring a teenage girl'? What is the legal situation?
That is the question, isn't it. I do see that ICE tries to do good here, but one has to admit it is rather absurd to charge someone for luring a pretend teenage girl. I wonder if that works the other way around, as well: are you committing a crime if you're chatting with someone who claims to be a 25-year-old but is actually some teenager just pretending to be legal age? Good thing I'm not young enough to have to worry about stuff like this! :D
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Want security? Run as limited user.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22550084 Sun, 14 Jun 2009 16:34:23 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22550073 dave : But it's worse - it's communicating with someone you think is under 18. Presumably, as long as you didn't believe the person was under 18, the same conversation with the same person would be legal. Thus, it apparently depends on what was in the mind of the suspect at the time. This is scary.

(And before we go in that direction, can we discuss this without assuming I am somehow 'for' the rights of child predators?)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22550073 Sun, 14 Jun 2009 16:30:38 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22550064 Cudni :
said by Steve See Profile :

I hope that's an oversimplification of what the actual charge is.
of course it is. they wouldn't dare charge him if it couldn't be substantiated

Cudni
--
"what we know we know the same, what we don't know, we don't know it differently."
Help yourself so God can help you.
Microsoft MVP, 2006 - 2009]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22550064 Sun, 14 Jun 2009 16:28:52 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22550049 Steve :
said by Blue2 See Profile, quoting the article :

"He was charged with one count of using a computer system to communicate with a person he believed to be under the age of 18 years,"
Yes, I read that too, and it scares me a little that merely communicating with a minor is a crime - I hope that's an oversimplification of what the actual charge is.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22550049 Sun, 14 Jun 2009 16:24:19 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22549994 Blue2 : To both your points, as the article clearly stated, ""He was charged with one count of using a computer system to communicate with a person he believed to be under the age of 18 years," said Purvis."

So I don't know the Calgary statutes, but I'm sure that those who charged him do.

Whether she was underage or not is not the issue since it obviously was a decoy. But the officer apparently thought he was communicating with someone under 18, and the nature of that communication caused him to be charged under this statute.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22549994 Sun, 14 Jun 2009 16:10:19 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22549962 dave : One thing I never quite understand in these operations - there was no teenage girl, so how can someone be charged with 'luring a teenage girl'? What is the legal situation?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22549962 Sun, 14 Jun 2009 16:01:19 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22549945 Steve : Ok, something doesn't look right. From the article, it says "with the intention of having the victim supply photographs this fall".

How many child predators would hold off asking for the goodies for months? Is it conceivable that during the fake-chat, the day of her birthday became known and "this fall" would have been after she turned 18?

Is it a crime to have sexy-talk with a minor and overtly plan for behavior that waits for the age of majority (putting aside the fact that it's just creepy)?
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Stephen J. Friedl | Unix Wizard | Microsoft Security MVP | Orange County, California USA | my web site]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22549945 Sun, 14 Jun 2009 15:56:54 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22549867 Blue2 : To the question "There are bad doctors, bad lawyers, bad computer scientists, so why not a few bad cops? ", there is probably one big difference.

No one becomes a doctor, lawyer or computer scientist with the intention of being a bad one. But I'm willing to bet that some go into law enforcement just because the "seedier" elements in life fascinate or excite them. The line between routing out these elements might not be so far from their own interests, perhaps unkknowingly. So anyone who volunteers, for example, to be on a 'vice" squad, should certainly have their intentions thoroughly checked.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22549867 Sun, 14 Jun 2009 15:36:36 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22549814 Link Logger : One of the reasons why I couldn't be a cop is when you have to deal with all the stuff they deal with day in and day out you can become a little desensitized and the line between right and wrong can become a little blurry so it takes real effort sometimes to maintain that line.

This is really a rare case as was the other one and Calgary has excellent cops, very professional and well trained both in technique and in dealing with people. The ICE group is a crack multi-agency investigative unit involving the Province of Alberta, the RCMP and Calgary, Edmonton, Lethbridge, and Medicine Hat Police Services which has two main objectives:

1.Find, investigate and arrest people who prowl chat rooms looking to exploit children for sex.
2.Find, investigate and arrest people who are trading child pornography.

and has been involved in cracking a number of major global pedophile rings and such and in short are just dam good at hunting the hunter.

Blake
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Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22549814 Sun, 14 Jun 2009 15:19:52 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22549260 La Luna : There are bad doctors, bad lawyers, bad computer scientists, so why not a few bad cops? I don't think this is abnormal, meaning it doesn't surprise me when a few are caught here and there doing things they shouldn't. In the end, people are still people, with all their flaws no matter what their profession is.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22549260 Sun, 14 Jun 2009 12:38:59 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22549071 fatness : That's the second Calgary officer facing similar charges. The other one was convicted of possessing child porn.
»www.edmontonsun.com/news/alberta···sun.html

Blake, is this line of work anything like firefighting, which attracts those dedicated to helping others but also unfortunately attracts arsonists? Or is this more of an anomaly, or is there no clear answer? Thanks.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22549071 Sun, 14 Jun 2009 11:41:56 EDT Re: Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22549034 Cudni : as it should be and nobody is above law (got to hope that is the case in 99.9 cases)

Cudni]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22549034 Sun, 14 Jun 2009 11:32:13 EDT Our local ICE team doesn't care if you are a cop http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22548347 Link Logger :
quote:
CALGARY - Nabbed in his force's own sting operation, a city police officer has been charged with luring a teenage girl over the Internet.

It's alleged Const. Randann Sargent, 26, who's served with the force for 21/2 years, was in contact on a chat service with a fictional minor with the intention of having the victim supply photographs this fall.


»cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Crime/2009/···sun.html

Our local ICE (Integrated Child Exploitation) team doesn't think anyone is above the law and certainly Const. Randann Sargent will get his chance to plead his case in court, but so will the ICE team. As mentioned in the article this is the second officer arrested in the last year dealing with child porn as last December, retired officer Steve Huggett pleaded guilty to possessing child porn and is to be sentenced later this month.

Now I still maintain and believe that 99.9999% of cops are good guys and I sure wouldn't trade careers with any of them (I couldn't do their job), but while they enforce the law they are expected to live the law just like anyone else.

Blake
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Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22548347 Sun, 14 Jun 2009 03:22:52 EDT