usa2k
Please PRAY for Rebekah
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join:2003-01-26
Canton, MI
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 ·VOIPo
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|  reply to Gomez
Re: [Chat] C++, Thinking out loud ...
I've let myself get sidetracked on
Sams Teach Yourself
C# 2008 Visual Studio
in 24 Hours
Working on chapter #6. It is exceptionally fun so far!
The presentation is different from C++ and Java books ...
It is proving to be a rapid practical experience without pain (yet!)
--
Jim, VoIP 12/2002, VOIPo 2/2007
FAH-Tool ... Pets ... USA2K site ... Artist-247 |
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Gomez
Been drinking brew for breakfast?
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join:2001-02-21
Atlanta, GA
clubs:
 ·Speakeasy
Host:
Pub Games
It is the economy,..
Clearwire
| reply to drew
said by drew  :But even the web 2.0 sites have desktop utilities that make the web app simply that much better. Take TweetDeck as an example. While it's done in Adobe AIR, it's an app I run from the desktop and I don't browse to in a web browser. It consolidates many pages worth of Twitter AND facebook data for easy viewing. I don't dismiss the viability of SAS (software as a service if I understand correctly) and its business model, I just don't think, nor do I want, web applications to be it. Browsers are the bottleneck there and until Microsoft either gets off the stage and the WebKit guys join up with Mozilla and Opera dies or comes up with the "killer app" browser, I don't think we'll see the end of the consumer desktop application. Maybe when the technology is there so I don't have to dick with things like CSS (All of you please tell me how on earth you like CSS after doing any kind of Windows or GTK (?) forms based development) to make a web app decent... I'm playing around with Symfony and doing their Jobeet "advent" calendar, but they completely disregard the style-side, because that's out of scope! While serious enterprise class desktop developers often, from my understanding, usually hook into forms and UIs created by real designers, the non-enterprise developers can still do a fantastic job without the same kind of bullshitting you have to do on the web. I don't think the web technologies are there yet. That's all I'm saying. Point taken..
But the reason the apps are capable of platform is embedding rich rendering objects that use the same interfaces.. That just makes the case stronger for two key patterns in SAS and remote software design: MVC (Model View Controller), and Separation of Concerns.
That fat client exists because of the common, web standards based, interfaces.
--
It's a fact : Chicks dig Mafia players.
'Wanna help buy a goat?' - »www.kiva.org
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Bobcat
Premium
join:2001-02-04
Bedminster, NJ
·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to usa2k
said by usa2k :For those who are serious programmers, are you all part time math geeks too? A woman at work has a son who has a PhD in math. He teaches math at a university. He has had numerous papers published on subjects that I can't even begin to understand.
But, he can't do his own taxes. His mother has to do his tax return.
Sorry, I just had to add a dig at PhDs.
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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice. |
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drew
Reformation
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join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA
clubs:
·wavebroadband
| reply to Gomez
But even the web 2.0 sites have desktop utilities that make the web app simply that much better.
Take TweetDeck as an example. While it's done in Adobe AIR, it's an app I run from the desktop and I don't browse to in a web browser. It consolidates many pages worth of Twitter AND facebook data for easy viewing.
I don't dismiss the viability of SAS (software as a service if I understand correctly) and its business model, I just don't think, nor do I want, web applications to be it.
Browsers are the bottleneck there and until Microsoft either gets off the stage and the WebKit guys join up with Mozilla and Opera dies or comes up with the "killer app" browser, I don't think we'll see the end of the consumer desktop application.
Maybe when the technology is there so I don't have to dick with things like CSS (All of you please tell me how on earth you like CSS after doing any kind of Windows or GTK (?) forms based development) to make a web app decent... I'm playing around with Symfony and doing their Jobeet "advent" calendar, but they completely disregard the style-side, because that's out of scope! While serious enterprise class desktop developers often, from my understanding, usually hook into forms and UIs created by real designers, the non-enterprise developers can still do a fantastic job without the same kind of bullshitting you have to do on the web.
I don't think the web technologies are there yet. That's all I'm saying.
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Come play Mafia! | My Picture Blog |
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Gomez
Been drinking brew for breakfast?
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join:2001-02-21
Atlanta, GA
clubs:
·Speakeasy
Host:
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It is the economy,..
Clearwire
| reply to drew
said by drew :Am I not a consumer? We are all both..
But the context is providing software solutions, and in the most part in an SAS environment.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I'm working on the assumption at this point of the thread diversion (perhaps it should be split?) that it's technology to back a business model.
Cool thing about a web business model is that it's not hard build an app.. The thing that sucks about a web business model is that "it's not hard build an app.."
Classic business models are based on IP (Intellectual property) you can protect that hinders someone from entering your chosen space. i.e. Adobe, Microsoft, Apple..
But the web space has little IP.. Facebook, MySpace, Digg, Yahoo, even Google.. None that's solid. There are some weak attempts, but there are no real IP barriers prohibiting any of us from attempting to enter any of those spaces..
The spaces are won by good timing getting there, and being agile to your consumer requirements once you are there..
If you want to play in this space, you have to play to win, and that means being on-top of the technology race, understanding what your users want, and deploying it as timely as possible.
--
It's a fact : Chicks dig Mafia players.
'Wanna help buy a goat?' - »www.kiva.org
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drew
Reformation
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join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA
clubs: | reply to Gomez
Am I not a consumer? |
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Gomez
Been drinking brew for breakfast?
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join:2001-02-21
Atlanta, GA
clubs:
·Speakeasy
Host:
Pub Games
It is the economy,..
Clearwire
| reply to drew
said by drew :I *hate* web browsers though. Absolutely hate them. None of them work as they should, there's no standardization. Form design on a desktop app is not only significantly easier, it's far simpler to handle input from. Any time you design a web app, no matter if it's standards compliant or not, there's at LEAST one of the browsers you have to add in some kind of hack for. I don't think my head's stuck in a box -- I'm open to new ideas. I'm just talking from a very low skill programmer's [insert word here for what I really am] perspective but mostly from a user's. The only thing I've seen from a web technology that's really made me go "Whoa..." was Flex. Even then, it's not *that* cool. That's strictly a matter of prioritization. What do you want vs. what does the customer want.. Odds are the requirements are vastly different, and one of opinion holders writes checks.
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It's a fact : Chicks dig Mafia players.
'Wanna help buy a goat?' - »www.kiva.org
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Bobcat
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join:2001-02-04
Bedminster, NJ
·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to usa2k
said by usa2k :For those who are serious programmers, are you all part time math geeks too? Nope, not at all. I've been doing real-time embedded software for 29 years. (It's a lot harder than desktop/server programming.) I have a BS in Electrical Engineering, so I had to know my way around math.
However, I've never had to use calculus outside of school. I rarely even have to use trig.
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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice. |
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DC DSL
Stays crunchy even in milk
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Washington, DC
·Covad Communications
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| reply to usa2k
said by usa2k :For those who are serious programmers, are you all part time math geeks too? I imagine it takes a geek to do a lot of image modeling type work. I always get a kick(laugh) out of how the series NUMB3RS, can spin a search algorithm in minutes to save the day. That takes more than a math geek! BTW: NUMB3RS passes FF and DSLR spell check!
When I started college, computer science was a math discipline. To even be considered for Berkeley's program you had to be in the top 1% of all math students in the country. Acceptance was almost exclusively those in the top 0.5%. By the time I started my grad work at Columbia in '74, the requirements were considerably more relaxed: you had to be in the top 10% for consideration.
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There is no giant fur-bearing trout. |
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usa2k
Please PRAY for Rebekah
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join:2003-01-26
Canton, MI
clubs:
·VOIPo
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| reply to Bobcat
said by Bobcat :... and we'd be selling hot dogs. Hmm, now I need to make breakfast! 
For those who are serious programmers, are you all part time math geeks too? I imagine it takes a geek to do a lot of image modeling type work.
I always get a kick(laugh) out of how the series NUMB3RS, can spin a search algorithm in minutes to save the day. That takes more than a math geek!
BTW: NUMB3RS passes FF and DSLR spell check!
--
Jim, VoIP 12/2002, VOIPo 2/2007
FAH-Tool ... Pets ... USA2K site ... Artist-247 |
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Bobcat
Premium
join:2001-02-04
Bedminster, NJ | reply to Steve
Hey, if programming was easy, anyone could do it and we'd be selling hot dogs. |
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Steve
I'm a PC, so shut up
Consultant
join:2001-03-10
Yorba Linda, CA
| reply to dave
said by dave :Programming is hard; let's go shopping. Let me fix it for you:Programming is hard; let's blame Microsoft
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Stephen J. Friedl | Unix Wizard | Microsoft Security MVP | Orange County, California USA | my web site |
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OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17 | reply to dave
You mean, outsourcing?  |
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dave
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join:2000-05-04
not in ohio | reply to Steve
Programming is hard; let's go shopping. |
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Bobcat
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Bedminster, NJ
·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to Steve
said by Steve :said by Bobcat :In our systems, we allocate all the needed memory at initialization. We never deallocate memory. We never allocate memory after initialization. That's a fine approach if the application domain permits it; many programs do not. I know. I'm talking about a different animal.
Two reasons we do it that way: 1) The obvious performance benefits of not allocating/deallocating memory on the fly. 2) We have to meet the worst-case* memory margins, so there's no real benefit of allocating/deallocating memory on the fly.
* Definition of worst-case design: The one delivered. 
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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice. |
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OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
1 edit | reply to dave
said by dave :said by modemslayer :And the most disciplined C++ coder on earth is still going to dangle pointers and leak memory. I don't. Don't blame the language if people have poor programming skills. Or they're not applying a good, well established practices how to manage it, or they are not required to completely and permanently test their products, or, simply, they don't care (and why software development should be a job for anyone?) As I've said earlier, in my C/C++ projects all bytes are counted. So, don't blame programming language, it's who applies it makes the matter.
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Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself... |
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Steve
I'm a PC, so shut up
Consultant
join:2001-03-10
Yorba Linda, CA
| reply to Bobcat
said by Bobcat :In our systems, we allocate all the needed memory at initialization. We never deallocate memory. We never allocate memory after initialization. That's a fine approach if the application domain permits it; many programs do not. |
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Bobcat
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Bedminster, NJ
·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to Steve
said by Steve :There really is a disciplined way to avoid leaking memory and writing to memory you don't own. In our systems, we allocate all the needed memory at initialization. We never deallocate memory. We never allocate memory after initialization. |
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Steve
I'm a PC, so shut up
Consultant
join:2001-03-10
Yorba Linda, CA
| reply to dave
said by dave :I don't. That's two of us.
There really is a disciplined way to avoid leaking memory and writing to memory you don't own. |
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dave
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join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
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 ·Verizon FIOS
| reply to modemslayer
said by modemslayer :And the most disciplined C++ coder on earth is still going to dangle pointers and leak memory. I don't.
Don't blame the language if people have poor programming skills. |
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