Tirael
join:2009-03-18
Savannah, GA
| GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!!
»https://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa···sid=1#44
quote:
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Q u o t e:
Warriors do not need all that much, honestly. I made a thread about that a few days ago which isn't inflammatory and so fell off the radar in an afternoon.
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We always read Satrina posts, even when others don’t. 
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Q u o t e:
It's nice when you see a well thought out post like this and not one response from Blizzard. It gives me a nice warm feeling that making simple fixes to the warrior prot tree is the last thing on their mind.
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Please don’t fish for blue responses. We can’t create the expectation that every decent post gets a blue response.
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Q u o t e:
if you've been playing a warrior for long, and you don't know how to deal with disappointment by now, i don't know what to tell you.
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Being the best tank for 70 levels can be disappointing. 
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Q u o t e:
Warriors have consistently been the worst tank since WoTLK dropped (Or fighting with paladins for that honor). In 3.2 they don't really move "up", rather DKs simply take the paladins old role of "worst competitor".
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I’m not sure that statement is accurate, but here is the problem. There are A LOT of warrior tanks. They are tanking every fight in Ulduar. If warriors were too low and if we buffed them, I don’t see how that would increase the numbers on the other tanks. I don’t think the conclusion to be drawn is that warriors are overpowered. I think the conclusion to be drawn is that warriors were the traditional tank and lot of established guilds have established MTs who see no reason to reroll the FotM. It’s not actually a goal to have 25% of each tank in Ulduar, but is also seems strange to buff the most popular tank. Won’t that just make them more popular? Again, don’t misinterpret that as GC sez suck it up warriors. It is something we have to keep in mind, however.
Block is a systemic problem. We're not sure we can make it a very compelling mitigation stat in a world where tank avoidance is so high and bosses hit so hard. However I will say that the Coliseum fights should focus less on the blow-your-cooldowns-or-die style of encounter.
Rage starvation is a problem. Frankly, we're not sure a model where you have to get hit in order to tank is that compelling anymore. Something that has come up a lot is changing rage (even for Prot) to damage done. This is a slight nerf to the PvP mechanic of being punished when you hit the warrior, but there are other ways to solve that as well. Again, we're talking a big change here. I'm not sure we're comfortable jacking with such a core mechanic before 3.2.
We'll try to get a tanking Patchwerk on the PTR again. That provided us with a lot of information before about mitigation, cooldowns and overall time to live.
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Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer
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"Human error will always trump perfection." - Anonymous |
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JesusBeamz
Lord of the Jesus Beamz
join:2009-05-14
Ontario
1 edit | Ironic, all my guilds tanks are DKs and Paladins.
We have 0 feral druids and 0 warrior tanks.
O.o |
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quatra
Premium
join:2003-06-22
Matthews, NC
 ·magicjack.com
 ·RoadRunner Cable
| reply to Tirael
I read his post as saying sure warriors might be bad but everyone is playing them and if we made them as good as the other classes they would become over represented. Great logic there . |
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Goggalor
Psychonaut
join:2009-06-09
Virginia Beach, VA
| Or he could be meaning what he actually wrote? That warriors in Vanilla and BC were the MTs to have in any legitimate raiding guilds? And that warriors do outnumber the other classes as tanks just simply because they've been around longer as MTs and that the devs want to be careful not to buff them up too much? It's crazy, I know, but devs sometimes do mean what they write. |
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Gvtguy
join:2008-06-02 | reply to Tirael
If you were to ask me how to fix warriors it would be simple. Change the dynamics of a thunderclap to stay on the ground like a death adn decay or conc. It would assist the aoe threat tremendously. |
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slashr
join:2009-01-21
Alexandria, VA | It would eliminate the need for pally tanks if they did this.
As holy pallies are the best signal target healers, warriors are the best single target tanks. |
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P Ness
You'Ve Forgotten 9-11 Already
Premium
join:2001-08-29
Mineola, NY
clubs:  | dk + feral and pallies as backups.
0 warriors.
most warriors are spoiled brats from lvl 60-70 tanking |
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quatra
Premium
join:2003-06-22
Matthews, NC
·magicjack.com
·RoadRunner Cable
| reply to Goggalor
said by Goggalor  :Or he could be meaning what he actually wrote? Yes and what he wrote in reponse to "Warriors have consistently been the worst tank since WoTLK dropped" was "There are A LOT of warrior tanks. They are tanking every fight in Ulduar. If warriors were too low and if we buffed them, I don’t see how that would increase the numbers on the other tanks." = his priority is representation over balance. |
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xenograffiti
join:2009-06-19
Dallas, TX
| reply to Tirael
Poor thread title.
Reading the thread I see that, as usual, GC is level-headed, correct and more than patient with forum idiocy.
Warrior tanking is fine (I have one). Could warriors be improved? Sure. So could just about every class in the game, in one facet or another. |
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Savant
Premium
join:2001-08-12
Toronto
clubs:
| reply to Tirael
The real problem is that the developers are using flawed logic to determine class changes.
For example, GC has said that warriors still make up the majority of tanks. He then makes the assumption that because warriors used to be the only viable tank (from the early days) that this has carried over to the here and now. Basically suggesting that all of these tanks are people who were in beta and have been MTing all these years.
This is flawed logic.
I would suggest that warriors are still popular tanks NOT because they used to be the 'best', but because people really like the warrior class and its mechanics. It's the same reason that some classes are more popular than others. It's not because the class is necessarily better than others, it's often because people LIKE the class.
So the problem here is that the developers are making a decision based on a flawed conclusion. (That there are so many warrior MTs because they used to be the only game in town.) As such, when they make changes based on this flawed conclusion, they only serve to alienate the player base.
I think the question begs to be asked... If the majority of tanks prefer to play as warriors, is there a pressing reason why they should try and encourage tanks to play other classes? Should they not just accept it and work WITH the player choice, instead of trying to change the playstyles of players?
Let's be clear here, I'm not talking about balance. I'm assuming an "all things equal" situation here. Yet even with the current "all things equal" situation, there is still a tendency for people to choose warrior tanks over other classes.
So why fight it? What pressing need is served by nerfing prot warriors to get people to switch off to other tanking classes?
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Could be better, could be worse, could be Monday... |
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pwrtoppl
C-C-C-Combo Breaker
join:2008-11-21
Broomfield, CO
clubs:
| reply to Tirael
we use a prot pally in ulduar right now with a warrior ot for group 1
group 2 uses a prot warrior and a prot pally as an ot
group 3 uses a def dk and a prot warrior as an ot
we got the core...though we tried druids, they just didnt work out for us
a guy at work swears that he could tank ulduar as his druid...but then again, he has sworn his gf did -amazing- damange on her lock, and she was too raid dependent to work
in my opinion, warriors are great, though they might not have aoe generation a pally or dk can
i think our warrior usually takes freya while the pally takes the adds
he also takes mimrom, the adds from ignis and razor, stormcaller, and a couple other fights i cant remember, aside from the tank swap some fights require
i think with the changes to dks, yeah, they fall under worst contender next to druid tanks
but i think paladins and warriors should hold that special place for "top" tanks
for what its worth, i think there is a minor rage gen problem if your overgeared for some fights...but our tanks found the best way to work around that is equip a dress...and save the raid |
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Tirael
join:2009-03-18
Savannah, GA
| reply to xenograffiti
said by xenograffiti :Poor thread title. Reading the thread I see that, as usual, GC is level-headed, correct and more than patient with forum idiocy. Warrior tanking is fine (I have one). Could warriors be improved? Sure. So could just about every class in the game, in one facet or another. I wasn't implying that GC was wrong in what he said. I play a warrior tank myself. I have been tanking as a warrior for the past 3 years. I think warriors in their current state are fine. The ap buff from AttT is nice. Increased TC damage will certainly help with AOE mob tanking. (After doing the numbers, at my warriors gear level it is aroung a 250 ap increase). Warrior tanks have it easy to AOE tank now. TC can hit unlimited mobs w/in its raidus. It use to only hit 4. Glyphs. Shockwave...if you have a problem AOE tanking as a warrior, you don't need to be playing a prot warrior. Simply put, a warrior's class mechanics are not setup to be EZ MODE FACEROLL when it comes to AOE tanking. It never has and I hope it never will. Aoe tanking as a warrior requires some skill. It always has. I remember when you AOE tanked as a warrior you had 4 tools. Demo shout, thunderclap, cleave, and tab devastate. Thunderclap only hit 4 targets. You couldn't glpyh devastate/sunder or cleave. WTF was shockwave? lol. Warrior tanking now has so much potential as a great trash tank and boss tank. Yeah realize no other class has a frontal cone stun? You lose a mob? No worries there, you have THREE ways to get to them fast, one of which can be used to protect whoever they are attacking. Intercept and Charge couldn't be used in defensive stance. Pfft, warriors have it easy. If they ever fix rage generation for warriors, everything would be fine. We could stack dodge/parry like a paladin/DK can. Warriors are fine. This post was meant to incite a laugh from the warrior community about GC pwning an idiot.
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If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? - Scott Adams |
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Goggalor
Psychonaut
join:2009-06-09
Virginia Beach, VA
| reply to quatra
said by quatra :said by Goggalor :Or he could be meaning what he actually wrote? Yes and what he wrote in reponse to "Warriors have consistently been the worst tank since WoTLK dropped" was "There are A LOT of warrior tanks. They are tanking every fight in Ulduar. If warriors were too low and if we buffed them, I don’t see how that would increase the numbers on the other tanks." = his priority is representation over balance. Let's just take one little snippit out of his entire answer and use it out of context! Man, your internet fu just increased from 399 to 400!
GC is saying that they need to be careful because, the simple fact of the matter, is that there are a lot of warriors and he doesn't want to overshadow the other tanks, but also wants to help warriors. He's having to walk a fine line since what many internet folks see is simple quantity and not quality of classes, making people go, "WTF?!1 gc's buffin warrs?1 their everywher and every1 plays 1! gc is in luv wit warrs and plays 1, so he wants them the best and lolz screw dks ferals and palyz." |
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Tirael
join:2009-03-18
Savannah, GA
1 edit | reply to Tirael
»https://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa···sid=1#17
quote:
I'm going to comment on this just once, lest we re-start the entire other thread. I am not personally going to address any other warrior issues in this thread.
-- Warriors are very popular main tanks.
-- This is probably because they used to be the best tank (by design) and because many MTs have stuck with the class for many levels.
-- We think they are slightly under-powered in Ulduar relative to other tanks.
-- If we are not careful and buff warriors too much then there are going to be more of them, which only feeds into the perception that warriors are designed to be (or should be designed to be) the best tank.
-- We've worked very hard to make sure there are 4 viable tanks, just as we've worked very hard to make sure there are 5 viable healers. We want to have paladins, druids and DKs tanking Coliseum, and not giving up (or being replaced by the raid leader) because they aren't warriors.
-- We don't balance around popularity. However we do take it into consideration. WoW is a social game and despite the excellent work by the theorycrafting community, player perception and psychology play a big role and often change very slowly.
-- We don't balance around past history. However we do take it into consideration. WoW is a game and players can form an emotional attachment to their characters. Emotion enters into it. While my team deals with cold hard numbers a lot, that is not the only part of game design.
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Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer
Like has been said. Warriors, if buffed the way a good portion of the community wants them to be, would step into the OP roll. Think about it. As a warrior who has done this for awhile (tank), I don't want my class to become FotM. Rage generation and HS spamming are the only true fixes we need. If those two changes happen, you won't have to worry about EH or anything else because all those avoidance stats you can't use now because of rage generation issues, will become common place on any warrior, bringing us back inline with other tanks.
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If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? - Scott Adams |
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Elerion
join:2009-02-17
Delson, QC
1 edit | reply to Tirael
Warriors are fine, they make ideal MTs since other tanks have better AoE threat generation. Not that they are the best MTs, others are better at the rest. When they make warriors equal in AoE generation, maybe we'll see more DKs and Pally acting MTs. |
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Tehuno
join:2005-01-18
Bartlesville, OK
| dk's are above and beyond the best tanks right now, hands down. Which is why they are being brought down, instead of buffing the other tanks. IMO druids need a buff, and pallies are getting another cooldown of sorts, which they need badly.
warriors need more aoe threat IMO however. |
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Elerion
join:2009-02-17
Delson, QC
| reply to Tirael
"AoE Threat" is ok I think; the big difference between the different types of AoE threat is mostly a "DPS" issue. Warriors do far less damage than any class. The mechanics of AoE threat is very much different from the warrior's point of view. Damage dealt via TC is a lot less than that of a Paladin's consecration or DK's Death and decay. The problem; again is more related to PvP vs PVE encounters where in a PvP environment, players can avoid much of the damage generated through AoE spells like that of a pally or a DK whereas the Warrior's AoE damage is instant. On the PvE side; it deals much less damage; even when combined with SW and the rage requirements they both requiere. On the short run, if you and a Pally are fighting for threat over a cluster of mob, you'll win because your AoE is all burst, but in the end, not only they will pull aggro off from you, they will also deal much, much more damage than you, hense the way higher numbers in damage done.
At some point, during BETA, they introduced Bloodbath; an rend-like ability that would apply on 4 or 5 targets, I can't really recall the exact numbers. That ability was under the arms tree and was supposed to be the response to all problems. It was declared to be too powerful in the hands of an Arms or Fury warrior so it got ditched out. Problem is Blizz initially thought it as an addition to ALL trees so it would ALSO fix the DPS and rage issues to the prot tree as well. In the end, they removed it and nothing else replaced ever replaced it.
Warriors, I think are fun to play, it is one of those class that you can't face-roll to do everything all the time; both AoE abilities require proper facing and / or proximity to mob clusters, unlike pallys and DKs, there's no ability you can spam that will hit a mob that's behind you and there's no real "rotation" drill-down, you hit whatver key that needs to be hit when they are available to you; S&B Proc, and rage-starvation mostly dictate what you can do. While a Paladin or Death Knight can just spam their most-damaging attacks all the time.
Warriors; the best single target tank? Not at all; other tanking class players are so used to AoE tank all the way up to get good numbers on their damage meters; they forget how to tank single targets. Go and fight a single mob against any other tank, if they know their role, you'll be neck to neck with them. The only exception; THEY gain aggro, unless you taunt it's a non-issue, you'll never have enough rage to keep up with them. Pallies and DKs are like warriors, but with easier to use abilities and infinite amount of rage. Whenever you have a smooth ride instance or raid with a Warrior tanking, there's no mistake; the player is doing the difference. Warrior is no easy mode.
My only concern; Damage with the Prot Warrior. I'd like to see numbers in par with other tanking classes. I hate running below 2K DPS in Ulduar when the other 2 tanks are well over 3K; DK and Pally. Roughly they do twice as much damage; that's the only thing I would like to see improve. As far as tanking goes, I am proud to say that we are probably the less "spiky" tanks to heal; Healers love a good warrior tank ! Bring back Bloodbath and put it far into the Prot Tree, and I'll be happy :-P |
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nokken
join:2001-02-07
Hattiesburg, MS
clubs:
3 edits | reply to Tirael
We use a DK to tank everything in 10 man, including Algalon.
Our DPS warrior goes Prot to tank Molgeim, we don't have a tank on Brundir, and the DK tanks Steelbreaker. On Freya - the DK tanks the add phases and the warrior tanks Freya.
In 25 man, we have made great use of the dual spec system and have 2 DKs, 1 DPS/Tank Warrior, and 1 Feral Tank/DPS. We have no paladin tank, mostly because ours quit before 3.1
Edit: 10 man - Everything clear but Algalon (and Alone in the Darkness).
25 man - Three Lights, Freya+2, FL+4, Hodir Hard, Thorim Hard, XT-hard.
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"The key to flying is falling and not hitting the ground." |
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longstreet
join:2004-11-14
Plano, TX
4 edits | reply to Tirael
Here's what I think.
Any class that has any kind of ranged magical ability, or superior damage while tanking should not be tanking as well as a class that has none and very little damage ability while tanking.
I also think Warriors still own single target tanking period. It's not impossible for a warrior to AoE tank or AoE hold aggro, it just requires a more skilled player and some crazy button mashing.
It's not broke, it's just there is too much QQ. Silly EMO kids just want to create useless conflict because they don't understand the mechanics of the game. |
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xenograffiti
join:2009-06-19
Dallas, TX
| said by longstreet :Any class that has any kind of ranged magical ability, or superior damage while tanking should not be tanking as well as a class that has none and very little damage ability while tanking. Agreed. A DK can perform the classic role of "tank" as well as a warrior, and additionally while tanking the DK can easily do 1k more dps than said warrior. Not by skill, but simply as a byproduct of DK mechanics. |
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