GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! in World of Warcraft http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r22597339 en Tue, 09 Feb 2010 15:17:51 EDT Tue, 09 Feb 2010 15:17:51 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22668934 iamamaritime : Right now, i really only use demo shout if im getting punched in the face too hard. Which hasnt been happening. but ty, you are a warrior, so you're best to ask, is it worth it to throw this in there if the healers arent crying hard times?

Yeah-like i said - ulduar may change things, but i know the heroic UP gauntlett isnt hard at all. charge most of the way down the hallway, do your rotoation and keep moving up.
most of the time i have to hold aggro and do the harpoons because dps it.....well, you know. :P]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22668934 Tue, 07 Jul 2009 16:49:21 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22666196 Tirael :
quote:
Charge, TC, Demo, Shockwave, Bloodrage, Tab devastate a few times, cleave, TC, tab cleave rinse, tab devastate, and repeat


NYlock, a good warrior does.
--
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? - Scott Adams]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22666196 Tue, 07 Jul 2009 10:04:35 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22666151 NYlock78 : So Warriors dont use Demo Shout anymore?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22666151 Tue, 07 Jul 2009 09:56:33 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22666022 Tirael : OK, Dawkins. I have tanked the gauntlet you speak of..several times. I even started hard mode, which freaked our healers out and we wiped, with 1 minute left on the timer. I didn't lose a single dps or my 1 healer, and I had 3 dps with me pushing 6k dps. Not a single, problem with aoe threat. Aoe threat rotation is simple for a warrior (albeit a little more involved than other classes) Charge, TC, Demo, Shockwave, Bloodrage, Tab devastate a few times, cleave, TC, tab cleave rinse, tab devastate, and repeat. Yeah, it sucks, but we are not PALADINS, DRUIDS, or DK's. You knew this when you rolled a warrior. Be glad we got more ap from armor. Otherwise, stfu Warrior!

Admin Note: I have a warrior (Paleteal-Feathermoon)
--
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? - Scott Adams]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22666022 Tue, 07 Jul 2009 09:30:37 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22665807 anon : You and I are talking about two completely different things. When I talk about AoE tanking, I'm thinking the gauntlet part of UP or the last leg of a timed heroic CoT:S run. You won't mark. You don't have time, everyone is just trying to kill everything as soon as possible. There is an encounter in Ulduar that has an arena/gauntlet encounter before you get to the boss. Warriors are having trouble because of the lack of AoE threat. Yes, a warrior is perfectly capable of doing it, but they will mostly likely have a little bit more work involved.

Setting up a trash pull is not AoE tanking. That's all I'm trying to say. You won't find anything in Naxx with AoE tanking. The instance was designed before the mechanic was in place.

Your rotation is perfectly acceptable for what you are talking about. I believe we are talking about two completely different concepts.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22665807 Tue, 07 Jul 2009 08:38:23 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22663260 iamamaritime : HAHA no my dps isnt 2.5k dps. i was saying the dps range. from 2.5-4k depending on the raid.

as for cleave, if i had any more troubles holding aggro ( which i dont ) then i'd hit it, i have it on my numbpad with my other aoe's, and i sometimes hit it, but not super often.

as for devastate....i mean....its not a waste at all. it helps everyone. and im glyphed so it does 2 targets. which also helps with threat. kind of a no brainer. also no. i dont tab target. i go to the third target to resume my dev after 5 on the first mob. and thats only if we pull more than one set of mobs.

and i dont tell the raid what to kill. i just mark what im hitting. if something does get by me ( of course if we get more than one set of mobs, the second set isnt going to have any threat, i blow my multi target taunt and start tc/sw/dev rotation on that group.

the highest raid we go to right now is 25 man naxx ( so far i havent had time to go into our ulduar ) and i havent had rage issues nor have i had a problem with the mobs at all.

either way im sticking to my answer. yes thats my rotation, yes ill give my opinion, and no it doesnt even come close to posing problems with aoe tanking. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22663260 Mon, 06 Jul 2009 18:56:45 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22662814 Mike : thunder clap, shockwave, repeat?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22662814 Mon, 06 Jul 2009 17:42:29 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22662448 anon :
said by awesome See Profile :

Till 5 devastates it's definitely worth hitting. After that you only hit it when you have no other options or to refresh the stacks of sunder armor.
How are you going to get a 5 stack when you are tab targeting?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22662448 Mon, 06 Jul 2009 16:46:34 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22661133 awesome : Till 5 devastates it's definitely worth hitting. After that you only hit it when you have no other options or to refresh the stacks of sunder armor.
--
Warrior definition of stealth: Kill anything that moves!
»wheresmedrink.wordpress.com]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22661133 Mon, 06 Jul 2009 12:58:20 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22661031 anon :
said by iamamaritime See Profile :

hmm if you're having that much troubles tanking multi mobs, i'd go as far as say maybe you should be thinking about switching your rotaion...

In almost every situation where there are multi mobs, i mark, charge skull, TC, shockwave, devastate, HS, devastate, till 5 devastates with revenge and shield slam whenever they pop.
If you are not using Cleave (instead of Heroic Strike) in your multi-mob tanking, you should not be giving advice on rotations.

You are asking the DPS to single target skull. That is completely different from actual multi-mob tanking.

Another thing to think about: is Devastate actually worth hitting? In most instances, you are better off saving the rage for your high threat abilities like Revenge and Shield Slam. Unless you have crap gear, you will starve yourself using Devastate on every opportunity.

Of coarse this will all change in 3.2 when you get 5 rage on a block, dodge or parry.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22661031 Mon, 06 Jul 2009 12:40:51 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22659818 Goggalor : I believe what he's saying is that the dps-ers in the raid are the ones sitting between 2.5 - 4k dps, not himself.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22659818 Mon, 06 Jul 2009 08:09:31 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22659789 Elerion : iamamaritime - I want to know who is your toon and on which server. I've never seen a warrior tank go beyond 2.3K DPS, and that's on static, trash fights. Boss fights goes below that to 1.7-2.2K DPS tops.

4K DPS lol... That would mean that EVERY hit you do hits for over 6K, and no misses, which not possible for a warrior tank.. C'mon, give us the right numbers. You might be good, okay, but certain things are not possible to achieve. DK tanks can achieve 4K DPs on trash, and certain bosses, but that ends there.

Give us your toon name and server, I want to see who is that prodigal warrior tank that can do what no one else can.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22659789 Mon, 06 Jul 2009 07:52:28 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22654305 iamamaritime : hmm if you're having that much troubles tanking multi mobs, i'd go as far as say maybe you should be thinking about switching your rotaion...

In almost every situation where there are multi mobs, i mark, charge skull, TC, shockwave, devastate, HS, devastate, till 5 devastates with revenge and shield slam whenever they pop. I'm currently tanking with dps sitting on average at the 2.5-4k dps in raids and I'm not having any troubles holding aggro. I very seldom even pop vigillance.

So as far as i can see, there isnt a problem multi tanking for warriors. I havent seen any of our DK tanks having a problem either. maybe its different in ulduar, but i'd doubt it as the rotation probably wouldnt change. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22654305 Sat, 04 Jul 2009 15:56:06 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22653430 Reanimator :
said by Tweakbl See Profile :

Also a "cower" ability would be great for dropping aggro in fights needing to ping pong the aggro between Tanks.Like Gluth.
Huh? Gluth isn't taunt immune, so there should be no probs switching aggro btw two tanks. If the current offtank is over-riding the new MT then he just needs to pay attention to his own threat.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22653430 Sat, 04 Jul 2009 11:11:48 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22649800 quatra : It looks like the 3.2 changes should help prot warriors with their AoE tanking. Gaining rage every time they dodge/parry/block should be you'll have enough rage to spam thunderclap/cleave (glyphed hopefully) plus the extra ~300AP from the armored to the teeth buff. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22649800 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 13:23:28 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22649673 Tehuno : effective health is king for progression tanking, havent we already had this discussion 100 times before? avoidance gear is for farm fights and dual wielding bosses(of which the only 1 i can think of is algalon). ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22649673 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 12:49:46 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22649100 Tweakbl : Glad to hear its not just me that has trouble tanking multiple mobs,I recently got a request to go DPS in my guild and I said sure,I have the dual Talent after all.Also had a bit of gear to DPS with so "switching" was almost painless.

I will say that Hughesnet and Tanking does not make a good combo,but I can MT in a instance as long as the party counts to 10 before DPS'ing.My biggest problem with the Warrior is a effective AOE for DPS and Tanking even with TC.Warriors are a single target fighter,but they need tweaked on a bit to help with multi target tanking and rage regen.

Also a "cower" ability would be great for dropping aggro in fights needing to ping pong the aggro between Tanks.Like Gluth.
--
HN9000w/Pro Plan,Linksys WRT54G,Lots Of PC's.3 dogs,2 cats,2 fish,one rabbit.one wife,two kids,no life.:)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22649100 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 10:47:55 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22641586 ERogerC : Just a correction. Parry haste ocurs when a Boss parrys you not the other way around. If you are not expertise capped (pushing parry off the table ) you stand a greater chance to be parried when DW because of more weapon swings due to faster weapon speed and the fact you are autoattacking with both hands.If you are expertise capped then more parry will actually help you due to the fact you gain parry haste as well when you parry and more speed, more attacks, more threat as well as more Rune Strike opportunities

where you suffer is lack of hit due to the DW penalty but if you get close to the Specials Hit Cap you should be ok

»www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Parry]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22641586 Wed, 01 Jul 2009 19:09:17 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22641069 iamamaritime : I know I'm not at the cutting edge of content here, but i run Naxx 25 and 10. and so far as i can tell, warriors dont need an upgrade at all. I wasnt ever hard to heal levelling up, nor am I in raids. ( so far ulduar may change that )

There are 4 real tanks in our guild, 1 pally, 1 warrior and 2 dks. and the healers ( one of them my girlfriend ) havent had anything bad to say about any of us taking more damage than the others. for any of the tanking classes.

Dont get me wrong, There are differences between the classes ( dk's are awesome for dropping D&D on healers and their taunt is something i envy ) but at the same time they slow down progression ( not only do they take the def plate, but the tier pieces take away from a drood healer set as well)

And as far as ulduar is concerned, the fact that there are a ton of warriors tanking the place seems to me that they must be able to hold their own in end game content. i doubt if someone could tell me that they seriously dont have enough DK's in their guild to replace a warrior who just cant keep up gear-wise. :P]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22641069 Wed, 01 Jul 2009 17:34:15 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22633436 Tirael : Ok. The problem with dual wield tanking is that you will get parry crushed. That means, that if you parry a bosses attack in the last 40% of HIS swing timer, his next attack comes faster. DW tanking works at the lower ends because the bosses simply don't hit that hard. However, when you get to Uld 10/25 and beyond bosses are hitting tanks for upwards of 18-25k a strike and you don't want those attacks coming any faster than they normally would. Use a 2hander to tank as a DK. Anything else is honestly retarded. Simply put, when it comes to tanking, forget about your avoidance for a second. Think worst case scenario, you take two back to back hits for 25k(damage before reduced by armor)each. Can you survive it? I.E. is your EH high enough to keep you from dying? If not, I would be more worried about stamina than 4% parry, which is a bad mechanic to begin with. It is WoW's double-edged sword.
--
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? - Scott Adams]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22633436 Tue, 30 Jun 2009 10:43:00 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22630876 Krisnatharok : I'm currently sporting the DK blood spec for tanking. I pull about 32k hp unbuffed and am working my way through Naxx 10 with my guild (we're casual and all hit 80 in the past couple months, so progression is slow). Parry is around 17% and Dodge at 25%.

Your post got me interested enough about using two 1Hers and adding 2% parry to each. I'm going to have to pick up the Argent Crusade tanking 1Her and maybe the other one from UP to see how it goes. I'm not crazy about losing all that def and stamina, however. I currently only need one 16Def gem to get to 539 (my sigil makes it 550 100% of the time as soon as I attack). Do you stack lots of def gems to get capped?
--
"One can lead a child to knowledge, but one cannot make him think."

Source: Lt. Col. Jean V. Dubois (Ret.), Starship Troopers]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22630876 Mon, 29 Jun 2009 20:42:42 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22628150 Elerion : You are right, I meant spec ability cap. As for STR vs AGI for avoidance, I would go AGI and dodge anytime before going STR and parry. Theorycrafting is great, and will give you a guideline for what you are going for. Still I prefer advice of real tanks over tankspot over wanna-be's DPS tank at EJ. I have nothing more to add :-) Bottomline; play like you want, as long as you like it and you have the support from your local healers :-)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22628150 Mon, 29 Jun 2009 12:24:38 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22628108 longstreet : It may show it, but it doesn't prove it]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22628108 Mon, 29 Jun 2009 12:16:55 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22627892 Quickdamage : You are wrong about Strength not helping a DK. They have the talent called forceful deflection which converts strength to parry. And your statement about using two one handers and being near hit capped is false. Dual wielding has a hit cap of like 27% which would be over 700 hit rating. If you mean special ability cap which is 8%, ok. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22627892 Mon, 29 Jun 2009 11:37:50 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22627728 Tirael : Paleteal - Feathermoon (Alliance)

That is my warrior. Not geared for a single threat stat and I can keep up with a paladin on threat. I do about 1800 dps when I am tanking a boss.
--
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? - Scott Adams]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22627728 Mon, 29 Jun 2009 11:10:23 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22627704 Elerion : Precisely what I said; you try being a mixed DPS-tank. That's your identity crisis right there. You are fit for trash / adds duty; not boss. No wonder a lot say warriors are best for bosses fights; you don't have proper gear for it. That's your choice. There are some nice 1h drops that has dodge/parry and expertise in Ulduar. For bosses fight, that's what your should be aiming for, not 2h. STR helps in no way mitigation, why stack for it? DPS... STR is best for Pallys and Warriors for shield use. DKs and Druids should aim for AGI before STR for more avoidance. If you lose threat because you are lacking DPS(?!) then you need to work your rotations, not add useless STR. If you prefer adding STR, that's your thing, but that won't make you better on bosses, only increase your overall damage done and DPS on meters, which is useless.

As everyone said and aggreed on; Tank duty is to keep aggro and make it as smooth as possible for healers. If you are a tank; whatever the class; you need to gear for such. Yes, the rune is nice for 2h and not available for 1h, does it mean you need it? No. Again, it's not because you can do it that it is the only way to go.

Warriors are no better for single targets than any other tanking classes; most players gear for trash and fight bosses as they would trash.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22627704 Mon, 29 Jun 2009 11:07:17 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22627648 xcal78 :
said by Tirael See Profile :

Actually, warriors are not the mitigation kings. »forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa···10&sid=1 It shows DRUIDS and PALADINS as best at mitigation, with Warriors about 100k damage behind and DK tanks about 200-300k behind in damage mitigation depending on spec.
I can confirm that druids have great mitigation these days. I sack health for mitigation as EJ shows that stacking health fails compared to stacking mitigation for bears.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22627648 Mon, 29 Jun 2009 10:59:43 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22627605 Tirael : Actually, warriors are not the mitigation kings. »forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa···10&sid=1 It shows DRUIDS and PALADINS as best at mitigation, with Warriors about 100k damage behind and DK tanks about 200-300k behind in damage mitigation depending on spec.
--
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? - Scott Adams]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22627605 Mon, 29 Jun 2009 10:53:51 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22627527 bTU :
said by Elerion See Profile :

Hold on... You mean because DKs "can" tank with a 2h, they have to? Err, you mean that because DKs can not weild shields, they should tank with 2h ers? That's awfully wrong. While I know many, many DKs that think that, it is a flawed way of thinking. Pallys and Warriors can tank just as well without as shield, NOT ! My DK has 2 1h with def and is near hit-capped. While the damage output isn't as great as with a 2h (still way beyond that of any other tanking class), I have no problem whatsoever keeping aggro, and I have much better avoidance than any so-called 2h-weilding wanna-be tanks. DKs need to know their role, especially when tanking. A tank is a tank, and as such should do anything possible to keep aggro and make life easier to healers. Using 2h is plain wrong. It's not because you CAN do it that it means it's the way to do it. Use the best gear you can and you'll see why DK tanks really are OP. Stop using crappy DPS 2h and learn to tank. There's no identity crisis, just players who think DK Tanks can and should DPS.
Want some cheese?

You even said use the best gear you can, many times the 2h weps with str, agi and a boatload of stam are the best, especially since Blizz put a +def rune that can only go on a 2h wep. Sorry my 2h wielding DK tanks Uld with no problems since he has ~31% dodge and 24% parry, hit capped and 39k health. But maybe I should use the 1h weps from 25 Naxx and lose mitigation, avoidance and health? Not to mention the higher avoidance procs rune strike more which is our main threat generator.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22627527 Mon, 29 Jun 2009 10:39:38 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22627467 Dunm : I personally have not tried it, but I would think any gains from the defensive stats on dual-wielded one-handers would be negated by the extra attacks you will take from the boss parrying. With so many more swings, the boss is bound to parry more which resets their swing timer... that's the standard theorycraft answer, anyways.

Although the buff to dual-wielding next patch has piqued my interest, I may need to look into it some more.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22627467 Mon, 29 Jun 2009 10:23:27 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22627394 Elerion : Hold on... You mean because DKs "can" tank with a 2h, they have to? Err, you mean that because DKs can not weild shields, they should tank with 2h ers? That's awfully wrong. While I know many, many DKs that think that, it is a flawed way of thinking. Pallys and Warriors can tank just as well without as shield, NOT ! My DK has 2 1h with def and is near hit-capped. While the damage output isn't as great as with a 2h (still way beyond that of any other tanking class), I have no problem whatsoever keeping aggro, and I have much better avoidance than any so-called 2h-weilding wanna-be tanks. DKs need to know their role, especially when tanking. A tank is a tank, and as such should do anything possible to keep aggro and make life easier to healers. Using 2h is plain wrong. It's not because you CAN do it that it means it's the way to do it. Use the best gear you can and you'll see why DK tanks really are OP. Stop using crappy DPS 2h and learn to tank. There's no identity crisis, just players who think DK Tanks can and should DPS.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22627394 Mon, 29 Jun 2009 10:11:09 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22613521 Krisnatharok : DK tanks have an identity crisis. We are part mitigation warrior, retribution paladin, and druid bear tank.

Frost presence keeps getting nerfed. I used to push 30k armor, now I have 25k. I've compensated by switching from Frost spec to Blood and bumped my health up to 33k. In a 10man with buffs, I reach 41k hp (this is T7, level 200 gear).

I really wish Blizz would make one spec the tanking tree. Skip all the damage upgrades, but give us some real tanking talents in one tree. AMZ and Vampiric Blood (aka Last Stand) should really be in one tree. I'd be OK with even a 5-minute CD on all our tanking talents if we could have access to all of them.

It'd also be nice of Blizz could add a tanking 2-hander to weaponsmiths. It could have low dps and strength, but have something like 52 Defense and some dodge/parry. That way you wouldn't see DK tanks going after every dps 2-hander that drops in a raid.

I really think that Blizz just hates DK tanks. We keep getting nerfed because of what someone does in PVP.
--
"One can lead a child to knowledge, but one cannot make him think."

Source: Lt. Col. Jean V. Dubois (Ret.), Starship Troopers]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22613521 Fri, 26 Jun 2009 07:29:30 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22612348 longstreet :
said by xenograffiti See Profile :

said by longstreet See Profile :

Any class that has any kind of ranged magical ability, or superior damage while tanking should not be tanking as well as a class that has none and very little damage ability while tanking.
Agreed. A DK can perform the classic role of "tank" as well as a warrior, and additionally while tanking the DK can easily do 1k more dps than said warrior. Not by skill, but simply as a byproduct of DK mechanics.
They don't have shields either, so there's a point. Warriors are the mitigation kings period. There's lots of situations when another tank is more desirable.

Maybe not avoidance, maybe not stamina, but I contend they will simply take less damage overall tanking than any other class, skill and gear being equal.

That doesn't mean they are more survivable in a given encounter, where a pally, DK or druid might survive more often.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22612348 Thu, 25 Jun 2009 22:33:34 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22610578 Tehuno : biggest problem with DK dps is that so much of their damage ignores armor, it lets them skip armor pen that nearly all the other melee dps needs, and just go for straight output stats- str/crit, etc.
so dumb to let a melee class do magic dps, for that very reason divine storm was changed from holy to melee damage, it was deemed OP, but not for DK's. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22610578 Thu, 25 Jun 2009 17:14:30 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22610460 xenograffiti :
said by longstreet See Profile :

Any class that has any kind of ranged magical ability, or superior damage while tanking should not be tanking as well as a class that has none and very little damage ability while tanking.
Agreed. A DK can perform the classic role of "tank" as well as a warrior, and additionally while tanking the DK can easily do 1k more dps than said warrior. Not by skill, but simply as a byproduct of DK mechanics.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22610460 Thu, 25 Jun 2009 16:52:13 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22610274 longstreet : Here's what I think.

Any class that has any kind of ranged magical ability, or superior damage while tanking should not be tanking as well as a class that has none and very little damage ability while tanking.

I also think Warriors still own single target tanking period. It's not impossible for a warrior to AoE tank or AoE hold aggro, it just requires a more skilled player and some crazy button mashing.

It's not broke, it's just there is too much QQ. Silly EMO kids just want to create useless conflict because they don't understand the mechanics of the game.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22610274 Thu, 25 Jun 2009 16:21:41 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22609866 nokken : We use a DK to tank everything in 10 man, including Algalon.
Our DPS warrior goes Prot to tank Molgeim, we don't have a tank on Brundir, and the DK tanks Steelbreaker. On Freya - the DK tanks the add phases and the warrior tanks Freya.

In 25 man, we have made great use of the dual spec system and have 2 DKs, 1 DPS/Tank Warrior, and 1 Feral Tank/DPS. We have no paladin tank, mostly because ours quit before 3.1

Edit: 10 man - Everything clear but Algalon (and Alone in the Darkness).
25 man - Three Lights, Freya+2, FL+4, Hodir Hard, Thorim Hard, XT-hard.
--
"The key to flying is falling and not hitting the ground."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22609866 Thu, 25 Jun 2009 15:21:10 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22609444 Elerion : "AoE Threat" is ok I think; the big difference between the different types of AoE threat is mostly a "DPS" issue. Warriors do far less damage than any class. The mechanics of AoE threat is very much different from the warrior's point of view. Damage dealt via TC is a lot less than that of a Paladin's consecration or DK's Death and decay. The problem; again is more related to PvP vs PVE encounters where in a PvP environment, players can avoid much of the damage generated through AoE spells like that of a pally or a DK whereas the Warrior's AoE damage is instant. On the PvE side; it deals much less damage; even when combined with SW and the rage requirements they both requiere. On the short run, if you and a Pally are fighting for threat over a cluster of mob, you'll win because your AoE is all burst, but in the end, not only they will pull aggro off from you, they will also deal much, much more damage than you, hense the way higher numbers in damage done.

At some point, during BETA, they introduced Bloodbath; an rend-like ability that would apply on 4 or 5 targets, I can't really recall the exact numbers. That ability was under the arms tree and was supposed to be the response to all problems. It was declared to be too powerful in the hands of an Arms or Fury warrior so it got ditched out. Problem is Blizz initially thought it as an addition to ALL trees so it would ALSO fix the DPS and rage issues to the prot tree as well. In the end, they removed it and nothing else replaced ever replaced it.

Warriors, I think are fun to play, it is one of those class that you can't face-roll to do everything all the time; both AoE abilities require proper facing and / or proximity to mob clusters, unlike pallys and DKs, there's no ability you can spam that will hit a mob that's behind you and there's no real "rotation" drill-down, you hit whatver key that needs to be hit when they are available to you; S&B Proc, and rage-starvation mostly dictate what you can do. While a Paladin or Death Knight can just spam their most-damaging attacks all the time.

Warriors; the best single target tank? Not at all; other tanking class players are so used to AoE tank all the way up to get good numbers on their damage meters; they forget how to tank single targets. Go and fight a single mob against any other tank, if they know their role, you'll be neck to neck with them. The only exception; THEY gain aggro, unless you taunt it's a non-issue, you'll never have enough rage to keep up with them. Pallies and DKs are like warriors, but with easier to use abilities and infinite amount of rage. Whenever you have a smooth ride instance or raid with a Warrior tanking, there's no mistake; the player is doing the difference. Warrior is no easy mode.

My only concern; Damage with the Prot Warrior. I'd like to see numbers in par with other tanking classes. I hate running below 2K DPS in Ulduar when the other 2 tanks are well over 3K; DK and Pally. Roughly they do twice as much damage; that's the only thing I would like to see improve. As far as tanking goes, I am proud to say that we are probably the less "spiky" tanks to heal; Healers love a good warrior tank ! Bring back Bloodbath and put it far into the Prot Tree, and I'll be happy :-P]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22609444 Thu, 25 Jun 2009 14:10:16 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22609044 Tehuno : dk's are above and beyond the best tanks right now, hands down. Which is why they are being brought down, instead of buffing the other tanks. IMO druids need a buff, and pallies are getting another cooldown of sorts, which they need badly.
warriors need more aoe threat IMO however. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22609044 Thu, 25 Jun 2009 13:09:20 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22607691 Elerion : Warriors are fine, they make ideal MTs since other tanks have better AoE threat generation. Not that they are the best MTs, others are better at the rest. When they make warriors equal in AoE generation, maybe we'll see more DKs and Pally acting MTs.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22607691 Thu, 25 Jun 2009 09:14:08 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22602071 Tirael : »https://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa···sid=1#17

quote:
I'm going to comment on this just once, lest we re-start the entire other thread. I am not personally going to address any other warrior issues in this thread.

-- Warriors are very popular main tanks.
-- This is probably because they used to be the best tank (by design) and because many MTs have stuck with the class for many levels.
-- We think they are slightly under-powered in Ulduar relative to other tanks.
-- If we are not careful and buff warriors too much then there are going to be more of them, which only feeds into the perception that warriors are designed to be (or should be designed to be) the best tank.
-- We've worked very hard to make sure there are 4 viable tanks, just as we've worked very hard to make sure there are 5 viable healers. We want to have paladins, druids and DKs tanking Coliseum, and not giving up (or being replaced by the raid leader) because they aren't warriors.
-- We don't balance around popularity. However we do take it into consideration. WoW is a social game and despite the excellent work by the theorycrafting community, player perception and psychology play a big role and often change very slowly.
-- We don't balance around past history. However we do take it into consideration. WoW is a game and players can form an emotional attachment to their characters. Emotion enters into it. While my team deals with cold hard numbers a lot, that is not the only part of game design.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer


Like has been said. Warriors, if buffed the way a good portion of the community wants them to be, would step into the OP roll. Think about it. As a warrior who has done this for awhile (tank), I don't want my class to become FotM. Rage generation and HS spamming are the only true fixes we need. If those two changes happen, you won't have to worry about EH or anything else because all those avoidance stats you can't use now because of rage generation issues, will become common place on any warrior, bringing us back inline with other tanks.
--
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? - Scott Adams]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22602071 Wed, 24 Jun 2009 10:28:03 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22601615 Goggalor :
said by quatra See Profile :

said by Goggalor See Profile :

Or he could be meaning what he actually wrote?
Yes and what he wrote in reponse to "Warriors have consistently been the worst tank since WoTLK dropped" was "There are A LOT of warrior tanks. They are tanking every fight in Ulduar. If warriors were too low and if we buffed them, I don’t see how that would increase the numbers on the other tanks." = his priority is representation over balance.
Let's just take one little snippit out of his entire answer and use it out of context! Man, your internet fu just increased from 399 to 400!

GC is saying that they need to be careful because, the simple fact of the matter, is that there are a lot of warriors and he doesn't want to overshadow the other tanks, but also wants to help warriors. He's having to walk a fine line since what many internet folks see is simple quantity and not quality of classes, making people go, "WTF?!1 gc's buffin warrs?1 their everywher and every1 plays 1! gc is in luv wit warrs and plays 1, so he wants them the best and lolz screw dks ferals and palyz."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22601615 Wed, 24 Jun 2009 08:46:45 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22601432 Tirael :
said by xenograffiti See Profile :

Poor thread title.

Reading the thread I see that, as usual, GC is level-headed, correct and more than patient with forum idiocy.

Warrior tanking is fine (I have one). Could warriors be improved? Sure. So could just about every class in the game, in one facet or another.
I wasn't implying that GC was wrong in what he said. I play a warrior tank myself. I have been tanking as a warrior for the past 3 years. I think warriors in their current state are fine. The ap buff from AttT is nice. Increased TC damage will certainly help with AOE mob tanking. (After doing the numbers, at my warriors gear level it is aroung a 250 ap increase). Warrior tanks have it easy to AOE tank now. TC can hit unlimited mobs w/in its raidus. It use to only hit 4. Glyphs. Shockwave...if you have a problem AOE tanking as a warrior, you don't need to be playing a prot warrior. Simply put, a warrior's class mechanics are not setup to be EZ MODE FACEROLL when it comes to AOE tanking. It never has and I hope it never will. Aoe tanking as a warrior requires some skill. It always has. I remember when you AOE tanked as a warrior you had 4 tools. Demo shout, thunderclap, cleave, and tab devastate. Thunderclap only hit 4 targets. You couldn't glpyh devastate/sunder or cleave. WTF was shockwave? lol. Warrior tanking now has so much potential as a great trash tank and boss tank. Yeah realize no other class has a frontal cone stun? You lose a mob? No worries there, you have THREE ways to get to them fast, one of which can be used to protect whoever they are attacking. Intercept and Charge couldn't be used in defensive stance. Pfft, warriors have it easy. If they ever fix rage generation for warriors, everything would be fine. We could stack dodge/parry like a paladin/DK can. Warriors are fine. This post was meant to incite a laugh from the warrior community about GC pwning an idiot.
--
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? - Scott Adams]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22601432 Wed, 24 Jun 2009 07:39:35 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22601007 pwrtoppl : we use a prot pally in ulduar right now with a warrior ot for group 1
group 2 uses a prot warrior and a prot pally as an ot
group 3 uses a def dk and a prot warrior as an ot

we got the core...though we tried druids, they just didnt work out for us
a guy at work swears that he could tank ulduar as his druid...but then again, he has sworn his gf did -amazing- damange on her lock, and she was too raid dependent to work

in my opinion, warriors are great, though they might not have aoe generation a pally or dk can
i think our warrior usually takes freya while the pally takes the adds
he also takes mimrom, the adds from ignis and razor, stormcaller, and a couple other fights i cant remember, aside from the tank swap some fights require

i think with the changes to dks, yeah, they fall under worst contender next to druid tanks
but i think paladins and warriors should hold that special place for "top" tanks
for what its worth, i think there is a minor rage gen problem if your overgeared for some fights...but our tanks found the best way to work around that is equip a dress...and save the raid]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22601007 Wed, 24 Jun 2009 01:46:11 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22600308 Savant : The real problem is that the developers are using flawed logic to determine class changes.

For example, GC has said that warriors still make up the majority of tanks. He then makes the assumption that because warriors used to be the only viable tank (from the early days) that this has carried over to the here and now. Basically suggesting that all of these tanks are people who were in beta and have been MTing all these years.

This is flawed logic.

I would suggest that warriors are still popular tanks NOT because they used to be the 'best', but because people really like the warrior class and its mechanics. It's the same reason that some classes are more popular than others. It's not because the class is necessarily better than others, it's often because people LIKE the class.

So the problem here is that the developers are making a decision based on a flawed conclusion. (That there are so many warrior MTs because they used to be the only game in town.) As such, when they make changes based on this flawed conclusion, they only serve to alienate the player base.

I think the question begs to be asked... If the majority of tanks prefer to play as warriors, is there a pressing reason why they should try and encourage tanks to play other classes? Should they not just accept it and work WITH the player choice, instead of trying to change the playstyles of players?

Let's be clear here, I'm not talking about balance. I'm assuming an "all things equal" situation here. Yet even with the current "all things equal" situation, there is still a tendency for people to choose warrior tanks over other classes.

So why fight it? What pressing need is served by nerfing prot warriors to get people to switch off to other tanking classes?
--

Could be better, could be worse, could be Monday...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22600308 Tue, 23 Jun 2009 22:22:55 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22598383 xenograffiti : Poor thread title.

Reading the thread I see that, as usual, GC is level-headed, correct and more than patient with forum idiocy.

Warrior tanking is fine (I have one). Could warriors be improved? Sure. So could just about every class in the game, in one facet or another.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22598383 Tue, 23 Jun 2009 16:35:33 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22598245 quatra :
said by Goggalor See Profile :

Or he could be meaning what he actually wrote?
Yes and what he wrote in reponse to "Warriors have consistently been the worst tank since WoTLK dropped" was "There are A LOT of warrior tanks. They are tanking every fight in Ulduar. If warriors were too low and if we buffed them, I don’t see how that would increase the numbers on the other tanks." = his priority is representation over balance. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22598245 Tue, 23 Jun 2009 16:15:49 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22598165 P Ness : dk + feral and pallies as backups.

0 warriors.

most warriors are spoiled brats from lvl 60-70 tanking ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22598165 Tue, 23 Jun 2009 16:05:23 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22597968 slashr : It would eliminate the need for pally tanks if they did this.
As holy pallies are the best signal target healers, warriors are the best single target tanks.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22597968 Tue, 23 Jun 2009 15:39:51 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22597937 Gvtguy : If you were to ask me how to fix warriors it would be simple. Change the dynamics of a thunderclap to stay on the ground like a death adn decay or conc. It would assist the aoe threat tremendously.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22597937 Tue, 23 Jun 2009 15:35:20 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22597650 Goggalor : Or he could be meaning what he actually wrote? That warriors in Vanilla and BC were the MTs to have in any legitimate raiding guilds? And that warriors do outnumber the other classes as tanks just simply because they've been around longer as MTs and that the devs want to be careful not to buff them up too much? It's crazy, I know, but devs sometimes do mean what they write.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22597650 Tue, 23 Jun 2009 14:48:34 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22597431 quatra : I read his post as saying sure warriors might be bad but everyone is playing them and if we made them as good as the other classes they would become over represented. Great logic there :). ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22597431 Tue, 23 Jun 2009 14:18:36 EDT Re: GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22597373 JesusBeamz : Ironic, all my guilds tanks are DKs and Paladins.

We have 0 feral druids and 0 warrior tanks.

O.o]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22597373 Tue, 23 Jun 2009 14:08:55 EDT GC tells Prot Warriors to STFU!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22597339 Tirael : »https://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa···sid=1#44

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q u o t e:
Warriors do not need all that much, honestly. I made a thread about that a few days ago which isn't inflammatory and so fell off the radar in an afternoon.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We always read Satrina posts, even when others don’t. :)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q u o t e:
It's nice when you see a well thought out post like this and not one response from Blizzard. It gives me a nice warm feeling that making simple fixes to the warrior prot tree is the last thing on their mind.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please don’t fish for blue responses. We can’t create the expectation that every decent post gets a blue response.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q u o t e:
if you've been playing a warrior for long, and you don't know how to deal with disappointment by now, i don't know what to tell you.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Being the best tank for 70 levels can be disappointing. :(

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q u o t e:
Warriors have consistently been the worst tank since WoTLK dropped (Or fighting with paladins for that honor). In 3.2 they don't really move "up", rather DKs simply take the paladins old role of "worst competitor".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I’m not sure that statement is accurate, but here is the problem. There are A LOT of warrior tanks. They are tanking every fight in Ulduar. If warriors were too low and if we buffed them, I don’t see how that would increase the numbers on the other tanks. I don’t think the conclusion to be drawn is that warriors are overpowered. I think the conclusion to be drawn is that warriors were the traditional tank and lot of established guilds have established MTs who see no reason to reroll the FotM. It’s not actually a goal to have 25% of each tank in Ulduar, but is also seems strange to buff the most popular tank. Won’t that just make them more popular? Again, don’t misinterpret that as GC sez suck it up warriors. It is something we have to keep in mind, however.

Block is a systemic problem. We're not sure we can make it a very compelling mitigation stat in a world where tank avoidance is so high and bosses hit so hard. However I will say that the Coliseum fights should focus less on the blow-your-cooldowns-or-die style of encounter.

Rage starvation is a problem. Frankly, we're not sure a model where you have to get hit in order to tank is that compelling anymore. Something that has come up a lot is changing rage (even for Prot) to damage done. This is a slight nerf to the PvP mechanic of being punished when you hit the warrior, but there are other ways to solve that as well. Again, we're talking a big change here. I'm not sure we're comfortable jacking with such a core mechanic before 3.2.

We'll try to get a tanking Patchwerk on the PTR again. That provided us with a lot of information before about mitigation, cooldowns and overall time to live.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer

--
"Human error will always trump perfection." - Anonymous]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22597339 Tue, 23 Jun 2009 14:03:58 EDT