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 Floid
join:2002-02-11 Ridgefield, CT
| FAQ needed! - and from the peanut gallery..
Oh dear. I'm a prospective U-Verse customer and I've managed to piece together a sense of how the service(s) are being provisioned from scraping this forum. Hopefully I've picked up enough terminology to relate what *should* be documented in one centralized place I haven't found yet. Note that I'm going to use 'PHY' as an acronym for all physical-layer (read: wiring) concerns.
This is my laundry list of questions that really, definitely need addressing for a "techie" to understand what he's getting into and feel comfortable ordering the service. I have just a single editorial 'comment from the peanut gallery' that'll go below.
* PHY to NID (to-the-premises): It appears that U-Verse has been deployed as a patchwork of "FTTN," "FTTC," and "FTTP" approaches. Some of these acronyms expand differently in the U-Verse than elsewhere; I gather that here "P" is "Premises"; "C" I assume is "Curb"; and N... Is that 'Neighborhood' (equaling Curb) or 'NID' (equaling Premises)? Note that the P in 'FTTP' elsewhere means, and is easily mistaken for, 'Pole,' which I guess would map to a FTTC arrangement here.
* NID to RG: It appears that, possibly contingent on the particular flavor of deployment, the choices are the new flavor of HPNA over coax, or "UTP"/"CAT5." To actually understand what is going on here, someone needs to elaborate on the link layer on the copper option - is that DSL, ethernet, or... potentially one or the other contingent on what type of external deployment terminates at the NID?
* RG hardware: Concretely documenting the make and model number of the current box being shipped would be a good starting point for techies needing to confirm their suspicions re: premise wiring etc. We all expect it to be from 2Wire; being able to see which model and glance at the specs and list of its physical ports would allow for more individual research/legwork.
* RG to LAN: If it's a 2Wire box, I gather it features wired ethernet, 802.11, and apparently HPNA-over-coax.
* STBs, DVRs, and "IPTV" in relation to LAN Are the incoming TV stream(s) truly IP-based [at least by the time it's into the LAN past the RG] or using some other approach? If IP, what QoS technique/technologies are being used at what layers? Whatever protocol(s) are in use, is this bridged across all the LAN interfaces of the RG by default/ever (meaning the HPNA, ethernet, and 802.11 segments), or are there multiple segments to deal with?
A brief discussion from the perspective of a home "network administrator" trying to get a handle on QoS and bandwidth-shaping concerns (together with overall network layout -- shove everything onto one GbE switch, or plan a completely separate segment for TV?) would be appreciated. I'm still not even completely clear on whether the TV rides on the excess capacity of the link between home and VRAD or rides IP to points more distant and eats into the "High-Speed Internet" throughput when someone's viewing.
* TV on PC? With so many triple-plays being advertised, I've lost track of whether this is even supposed to be a part of U-Verse. Is it possible, is it considered part of the service, and is it supported in any fashion for non-Windows -- *NIX/Linux/Macintosh -- users? Basically, if it's being offered, how's it being offered from the technical person-stuck-with-making-it-work standpoint?
* Voice / VoIP I gather that, going forward, U-Verse is standardizing on VoIP for voice. What are the QoS concerns, if any? Or is QoS enforced at the RG [as [part of bridging it off to analog ports], and the only "voice" traffic ever seen on the customer's LAN will be use of "extra features" like web voicemail?
... I think that covers the major mysteries; detail those and the more specific issues ("XXX doesn't work with YYY", "How to configure ZZZ", "What to do if you're switching from QQQ" type problems) can be added later.
My groan from the peanut gallery is thus: A reason I've preferred "telecom" companies, including The New AT&T, compared to entrants from certain other industries (television), has been the culture of reliability, particularly concerning worst-case/emergency preparedness. As we all know, POTS, by design, is quite capable of providing a dialtone under even the most adverse circumstances... and until recently, for various reasons and coincidences, the 'telecom' approach to consumer broadband happened to be DSL, which permitted/encouraged/did-not-collide-with continued use of POTS.
Now, with U-Verse Voice, if I have this right, the customer is being asked to maintain [and put up with the beeping from] their own UPS... which is apparently a "consumer" model Belkin or similar, capable of maintaining power for a paltry four hours if no one plugged something stupid into it. I realize there must have been many reasons to "give up" and do what "everyone else" (your friends in cable) does, but my first impression remains Have you lost your minds? The VRAD must still maintain backup power, and it should be a no-brainer to provide at least POTS-style power alongside the new-school physical link -- at which point y'all could trumpet the advantages thereof.
See, this would allow the RG to [be designed to] degrade gracefully; it could be as simple as split power planes -- the high-wattage IP/router side gets the wall-wart, the POTS bridge operates independently from telco power -- or as complex as building a lithium battery right into the unit, preserving TV and Internet in a degraded "emergency" state [56kb/s is still enough to send an email or a couple "I'm alive" IMs] for as long as reasonable when wall power goes, with the POTS bridge still powered from outside when everything else is dead.
Admittedly this may increase the risk of lightning or related electrical damage to customer equipment compared to a wholly copper-free install, but there are ways to mitigate that, and it's part of what I've been paying the "real telco" premium for. If all that stands between me and outage is a low-spec Belkin (which, for all I know, it might violate the ToS to replace with something beefier)... I might as well get service from people whose concept of reliability is "at least you can catch it in reruns."  Or just give up, get naked DSL, and find the voice and entertainment services from third parties... since adding the backup power and ensuring lights-out reliability is going to fall on me, either way.
(Of course, yes, I'm welcome to pay the "real telco premium" twice to maintain a POTS line alongside U-Verse, but at that point I might as well stick to a standard DSL pairing and get the TV from a dish.) | |  NormanS Premium,MVM join:2001-02-14 San Jose, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| TTBOMK, U-Verse is primarily FTTN, with some of the FTTC areas also getting it. I am not aware that AT&T has any FTTC outside of the former Bellsouth region, and I am not aware that they have figured out how to run Uverse over that FTTC.
FTTN would be, "Fiber To The Node", the "Node" being a powered cabinet adjacent to a cross connect box, usually called a, "VRAD", for "Video Ready Access Device". Fiber is run to the VRAD, and a copper jumper run to the cross connect. The Uverse signals run on the fiber to the VRAD, are then patched to the cross connect to run to the premises on the F2 span (a bundle of copper pairs).
I am not sure about the NID to RG link. I believe it is VDSL to the NID; but I am clueless beyond that.
LAN is wired, or wireless Ethernet. Uncertain about the rest of it. -- Norman ~Oh Lord, why have you come ~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum | |  Floid
join:2002-02-11 Ridgefield, CT
| Ha. Well, thanks, that clears one up. I wasn't expecting to see 'Node' because that's usually cable-speak, but I guess they've adopted cable-speak now that TV's involved. 
Flipping back through posts here there are mentions of "OTNs" (however that acronym's being abused) installed at/as NIDs on houses for FTTP. I would assume, though, perhaps wrongly, that FTTP is only going to show up in areas that have FTTC... and that the vast majority of deployments (including my area) are going to be as you describe. | |  dougall
join:2001-01-16 Austin, TX | reply to NormanS Actually around 6% of AT&T territory is FTTP(orC). Many developments in the last 5-6 years (which is quite a lot of building) is fiber. Northwest Austin has something like ~150 subdivisions that are fiber fed. | |  MyDogHsFleas Premium join:2007-08-15 Austin, TX
·AT&T U-Verse
| reply to Floid said by Floid :* PHY to NID (to-the-premises): It appears that U-Verse has been deployed as a patchwork of "FTTN," "FTTC," and "FTTP" approaches. Some of these acronyms expand differently in the U-Verse than elsewhere; I gather that here "P" is "Premises"; "C" I assume is "Curb"; and N... Is that 'Neighborhood' (equaling Curb) or 'NID' (equaling Premises)? Note that the P in 'FTTP' elsewhere means, and is easily mistaken for, 'Pole,' which I guess would map to a FTTC arrangement here. By far the most common U-verse deployment is FTTN. Fiber to the Node aka VRAD. The VRAD is a powered, active box within a few thousand feet of your home. The connection from VRAD to NID is a copper phone twisted pair which must be clean (no bridge taps) and must test out.
New neighborhoods are sometimes built out with FTTH "Fiber to the Home" and the NID is replaced by a box that has a fiber input. However you don't get any faster service (yet).
* NID to RG: It appears that, possibly contingent on the particular flavor of deployment, the choices are the new flavor of HPNA over coax, or "UTP"/"CAT5." To actually understand what is going on here, someone needs to elaborate on the link layer on the copper option - is that DSL, ethernet, or... potentially one or the other contingent on what type of external deployment terminates at the NID?
This connection is VDSL over copper twisted pair, or coax via a balun (not Ethernet) in an FTTN situation. In FTTH I believe it's Ethernet.
* RG hardware: Concretely documenting the make and model number of the current box being shipped would be a good starting point for techies needing to confirm their suspicions re: premise wiring etc. We all expect it to be from 2Wire; being able to see which model and glance at the specs and list of its physical ports would allow for more individual research/legwork.
2wire 3800HGV-B
* RG to LAN: If it's a 2Wire box, I gather it features wired ethernet, 802.11, and apparently HPNA-over-coax.
yes, 4 100mb Ethernet ports, a coax port for HPNA, and 802.11 b/g wireless.
* STBs, DVRs, and "IPTV" in relation to LAN Are the incoming TV stream(s) truly IP-based [at least by the time it's into the LAN past the RG] or using some other approach? If IP, what QoS technique/technologies are being used at what layers? Whatever protocol(s) are in use, is this bridged across all the LAN interfaces of the RG by default/ever (meaning the HPNA, ethernet, and 802.11 segments), or are there multiple segments to deal with?
yes streams are IP even on the AT&T backbone and all the way to your STB/DVR. The RG is smart enough as a switch/bridge not to forward all the TV packets across the whole LAN so as not to flood your PCs. The network is a single segment AFAIK. I don't know details on QoS but clearly there is some going on for voice and video IP streams. At first, they did hard limits on bandwidth for voice, video, and Internet -- but now they will allow video to impinge on Internet bandwidth.
A brief discussion from the perspective of a home "network administrator" trying to get a handle on QoS and bandwidth-shaping concerns (together with overall network layout -- shove everything onto one GbE switch, or plan a completely separate segment for TV?) would be appreciated. I'm still not even completely clear on whether the TV rides on the excess capacity of the link between home and VRAD or rides IP to points more distant and eats into the "High-Speed Internet" throughput when someone's viewing.
Best would be to connect the STBs directly to the Ethernet and/or HPNA ports on the RG, and leave one Ethernet port open for your GbE switch, to which you connect all your other networked devices. Then the RG can manage the bridging as discussed above. If you have more than 3 STBs, get them to pony up another switch which does the bridging protocols correctly, and use that to connect the STBs.
TV is IP all the way and can potentially slow down your HSI a bit if you have the full out Max plan (18 Mb/sec).
* TV on PC? With so many triple-plays being advertised, I've lost track of whether this is even supposed to be a part of U-Verse. Is it possible, is it considered part of the service, and is it supported in any fashion for non-Windows -- *NIX/Linux/Macintosh -- users? Basically, if it's being offered, how's it being offered from the technical person-stuck-with-making-it-work standpoint?
No TV on PC at this point -- the only box that can digest the IPTV stream is their STB with standard video/audio outputs.
* Voice / VoIP I gather that, going forward, U-Verse is standardizing on VoIP for voice. What are the QoS concerns, if any? Or is QoS enforced at the RG [as [part of bridging it off to analog ports], and the only "voice" traffic ever seen on the customer's LAN will be use of "extra features" like web voicemail?
U-verse Voice is VoIP with QoS managed by the RG and upstream. There is no voice carried over the home network downstream of the RG -- you plug your wired phone system into the RG's analog phone port.
My groan from the peanut gallery is thus: A reason I've preferred "telecom" companies, including The New AT&T, compared to entrants from certain other industries (television), has been the culture of reliability, particularly concerning worst-case/emergency preparedness. As we all know, POTS, by design, is quite capable of providing a dialtone under even the most adverse circumstances... and until recently, for various reasons and coincidences, the 'telecom' approach to consumer broadband happened to be DSL, which permitted/encouraged/did-not-collide-with continued use of POTS. Now, with U-Verse Voice, if I have this right, the customer is being asked to maintain [and put up with the beeping from] their own UPS... which is apparently a "consumer" model Belkin or similar, capable of maintaining power for a paltry four hours if no one plugged something stupid into it. I realize there must have been many reasons to "give up" and do what "everyone else" (your friends in cable) does, but my first impression remains Have you lost your minds? The VRAD must still maintain backup power, and it should be a no-brainer to provide at least POTS-style power alongside the new-school physical link -- at which point y'all could trumpet the advantages thereof. See, this would allow the RG to [be designed to] degrade gracefully; it could be as simple as split power planes -- the high-wattage IP/router side gets the wall-wart, the POTS bridge operates independently from telco power -- or as complex as building a lithium battery right into the unit, preserving TV and Internet in a degraded "emergency" state [56kb/s is still enough to send an email or a couple "I'm alive" IMs] for as long as reasonable when wall power goes, with the POTS bridge still powered from outside when everything else is dead. Admittedly this may increase the risk of lightning or related electrical damage to customer equipment compared to a wholly copper-free install, but there are ways to mitigate that, and it's part of what I've been paying the "real telco" premium for. If all that stands between me and outage is a low-spec Belkin (which, for all I know, it might violate the ToS to replace with something beefier)... I might as well get service from people whose concept of reliability is "at least you can catch it in reruns."  Or just give up, get naked DSL, and find the voice and entertainment services from third parties... since adding the backup power and ensuring lights-out reliability is going to fall on me, either way. (Of course, yes, I'm welcome to pay the "real telco premium" twice to maintain a POTS line alongside U-Verse, but at that point I might as well stick to a standard DSL pairing and get the TV from a dish.) First, U-verse Voice comes with an AT&T supplied UPS for the RG -- it's not supplied by the consumer. Second, cable has exactly the same scheme -- a UPS for the cable modem -- it's not better. Third, you can have POTS and VDSL on the same pair, so technically you could have both U-verse Voice and POTS together, but I don't think AT&T allows you to order/provision that. You can have either U-verse Voice or POTS on a given pair.
If I were you and really, really wanted a real POTS backup line, I'd simply order a second phone line with minimal POTS -- you can get it for like $15/month with all fees/taxes with metered service. | |   Mr Anon
@sbcglobal.net
| reply to Floid Maybe I'm not getting it but it seems to me like in this tread that it isn't being mentioned that you do not have to order U-Verse Voice, it is a separate product.
Also be VERY careful switches, do not use a consumer's switch ports to multiply you available ports as it will drive it nuts. I tried one in a pinch and it caused all sorts of errors for the STB and the router locked up frequently, I wasn't using the wan just the switch ports, luckily I had a 48 port cisco laying around and although it was overkill for the situation it works well.
P.S. I really hate the redundant name U-Verse Voice I know its perhaps to get out the notion that you must have uverse to get it but UVoice just seems so much more eloquent. | |  Floid
join:2002-02-11 Ridgefield, CT
| reply to MyDogHsFleas Thanks for the above MyDogHsFleas, basically nailed everything down. Shame the TV-on-PC option isn't available yet but hopefully that means they'll "do it right" if they ever do. [re: 'doing it right' -- as far as I'm concerned, just being able to address the DVR in a manner equivalent to a 'HDHomeRun' box would be the way to go, avoiding the need for any wacky authentication or encryption techniques on each host].
quote: First, U-verse Voice comes with an AT&T supplied UPS for the RG -- it's not supplied by the consumer. Second, cable has exactly the same scheme -- a UPS for the cable modem -- it's not better. Third, you can have POTS and VDSL on the same pair, so technically you could have both U-verse Voice and POTS together, but I don't think AT&T allows you to order/provision that. You can have either U-verse Voice or POTS on a given pair.
If I were you and really, really wanted a real POTS backup line, I'd simply order a second phone line with minimal POTS -- you can get it for like $15/month with all fees/taxes with metered service.
Note that I certainly never said that cable was "better," and I'm aware that T is "providing" the UPS (which means the customer is paying, in the end... just as the customer pays for the more reliable off-premises backups with POTS). I just honestly believe (or can't believe) the chance was missed to leverage the existing infrastructure and know-how to build a more resilient voice offering that'd outshine cable and be fully idiot-proofed.
Obviously going co-POTS or U-Verse sans-voice is an option... Just kind of a silly option for the obvious reasons. (So much for a combined bill; so much for 'going with the flow' of the infrastructure upgrades if the infrastructure isn't resilient enough to replace POTS in a true disaster -- or yearly New England winter storm...)
...
Also @ Mr. Anon: This is why further technical detail would be useful. If the Cisco 'just works' where something 'cheaper than Cisco' doesn't then chances are the switch simply needs to support some known and named standard for QoS tagging. Being told "buy XXX" is not very helpful, but being told "the standard involved is ___" allows an informed geek to do the right thing. (Probably also some sort of jumbo-framing issue there for all I know; I haven't had a reason to play with GbE yet so I don't know how bad the lowest-of-low-end hardware is.)
There are at least a half dozen ways to implement QoS on ethernet-like networks before you even get into the mechanisms for QoS at the IP level, so (I know, repeating myself) an actual answer that narrows it down would... be common courtesy, as far as informing customers how to use the service properly and not 'break' it. | |   rambler358
join:2009-05-21 Torrance, CA
| said by Floid :Shame the TV-on-PC option isn't available yet but hopefully that means they'll "do it right" if they ever do. I believe it currently can be done, but you'll need a video card or PC TV tuner card with video inputs on it. You can then connect the analog outputs of the STB, and you should be good to go. Note that you'll pay another $7/month for the additional STB connected. | |   apeface
join:2000-09-16 Mckinney, TX | reply to Floid What part of QoSing are you wanting to know about? Are you talking on the LAN or the WAN sides? | |  NormanS Premium,MVM join:2001-02-14 San Jose, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| reply to dougall said by dougall :Actually around 6% of AT&T territory is FTTP(orC). Many developments in the last 5-6 years (which is quite a lot of building) is fiber. Northwest Austin has something like ~150 subdivisions that are fiber fed. FTTC != FTTP. In the former SBC regions, AFAIK, no FTTC was ever deployed, just FTTP, and that mostly in "greenfield" communities.
FTTC appears to be a uniquely Bellsouth offering; and, from what I've gleaned in the AT&T Southeast forums, AT&T has not, yet, figured out how to upgrade the FTTC hardware for Uverse. The answer seems obvious, to me; the pedestals are already within 100 feet of the premises. Just splice fiber, and run the last 100 feet, and install the ONTs. But I don't have any technical clue as to how viable that would actually be.
Can you give me examples of FTTC outside of AT&T Southeast (former Bellsouth)? -- Norman ~Oh Lord, why have you come ~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum | |   Mr Anon
@sbcglobal.net
| reply to Floid You don't need a Cisco switch I just think that many people think that equipment works in certain ways that they don't. In short if use any equipment to spit a run that a box is on, make sure that it either doesn't inspect the frames or if it does make sure its got some power.
What I've seen them give out is a Soho Netgear switch and it works just fine. When you split a line that goes to a STB all frames for TV will end up going to all ports on the splitting switch and there are a TON of them.
The network from the RG is only 10/100 (actually it could be just 100 I have not tried 10) and I'm guessing here but I think for the video its more important for the data to get there on or before time more than fragmentation of the units as if it doesn't matter if you send 1/2 1/4 or 1/30th of 29.95 FPS as long as it all gets there before its needed. | |   apeface
join:2000-09-16 Mckinney, TX
·AT&T U-Verse
| reply to NormanS said by NormanS :said by dougall :Actually around 6% of AT&T territory is FTTP(orC). Many developments in the last 5-6 years (which is quite a lot of building) is fiber. Northwest Austin has something like ~150 subdivisions that are fiber fed. FTTC != FTTP. In the former SBC regions, AFAIK, no FTTC was ever deployed, just FTTP, and that mostly in "greenfield" communities. FTTC appears to be a uniquely Bellsouth offering; and, from what I've gleaned in the AT&T Southeast forums, AT&T has not, yet, figured out how to upgrade the FTTC hardware for Uverse. The answer seems obvious, to me; the pedestals are already within 100 feet of the premises. Just splice fiber, and run the last 100 feet, and install the ONTs. But I don't have any technical clue as to how viable that would actually be. Can you give me examples of FTTC outside of AT&T Southeast (former Bellsouth)? Richardson Texas had FTTC. | |  NormanS Premium,MVM join:2001-02-14 San Jose, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| said by apeface :Richardson Texas had FTTC. Ah. I was seriously under the impression that Richardson, Texas, was FTTP. ONT on the side of the premises ... -- Norman ~Oh Lord, why have you come ~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum | |   apeface
join:2000-09-16 Mckinney, TX | reply to Floid They had/have both. There was a trial of FTTC that went in like 8-9 years ago. I don't think it was more than may 500 or so users. | |  nthach
join:2009-02-11
·Comcast
| reply to MyDogHsFleas The problem with the UPS is that people fail to notice when the battery goes bad in them - I recall Comcast was using wall-mounted Arris VoIP modems with a internally-mounted Antec/APC UPS in the garage years ago - and those used old school VRLA glass-mat batteries, which is similar to the ones found in a common UPS or a Prius(as the 12V "boot" battery for the car).
Newer EMTAs use NiMHs or Li-Ions which are more tolerant to charge cycles than lead-acid. From my Internet observations, AT&T is still using the old school UPS. | |
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