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MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T Southwest

reply to Floid
Re: FAQ needed! - and from the peanut gallery..

said by Floid See Profile :

* PHY to NID (to-the-premises):
It appears that U-Verse has been deployed as a patchwork of "FTTN," "FTTC," and "FTTP" approaches. Some of these acronyms expand differently in the U-Verse than elsewhere; I gather that here "P" is "Premises"; "C" I assume is "Curb"; and N... Is that 'Neighborhood' (equaling Curb) or 'NID' (equaling Premises)?
Note that the P in 'FTTP' elsewhere means, and is easily mistaken for, 'Pole,' which I guess would map to a FTTC arrangement here.
By far the most common U-verse deployment is FTTN. Fiber to the Node aka VRAD. The VRAD is a powered, active box within a few thousand feet of your home. The connection from VRAD to NID is a copper phone twisted pair which must be clean (no bridge taps) and must test out.

New neighborhoods are sometimes built out with FTTH "Fiber to the Home" and the NID is replaced by a box that has a fiber input. However you don't get any faster service (yet).

* NID to RG:
It appears that, possibly contingent on the particular flavor of deployment, the choices are the new flavor of HPNA over coax, or "UTP"/"CAT5."
To actually understand what is going on here, someone needs to elaborate on the link layer on the copper option - is that DSL, ethernet, or... potentially one or the other contingent on what type of external deployment terminates at the NID?
This connection is VDSL over copper twisted pair, or coax via a balun (not Ethernet) in an FTTN situation. In FTTH I believe it's Ethernet.

* RG hardware:
Concretely documenting the make and model number of the current box being shipped would be a good starting point for techies needing to confirm their suspicions re: premise wiring etc. We all expect it to be from 2Wire; being able to see which model and glance at the specs and list of its physical ports would allow for more individual research/legwork.
2wire 3800HGV-B

* RG to LAN:
If it's a 2Wire box, I gather it features wired ethernet, 802.11, and apparently HPNA-over-coax.
yes, 4 100mb Ethernet ports, a coax port for HPNA, and 802.11 b/g wireless.

* STBs, DVRs, and "IPTV" in relation to LAN
Are the incoming TV stream(s) truly IP-based [at least by the time it's into the LAN past the RG] or using some other approach?
If IP, what QoS technique/technologies are being used at what layers?
Whatever protocol(s) are in use, is this bridged across all the LAN interfaces of the RG by default/ever (meaning the HPNA, ethernet, and 802.11 segments), or are there multiple segments to deal with?
yes streams are IP even on the AT&T backbone and all the way to your STB/DVR. The RG is smart enough as a switch/bridge not to forward all the TV packets across the whole LAN so as not to flood your PCs. The network is a single segment AFAIK. I don't know details on QoS but clearly there is some going on for voice and video IP streams. At first, they did hard limits on bandwidth for voice, video, and Internet -- but now they will allow video to impinge on Internet bandwidth.

A brief discussion from the perspective of a home "network administrator" trying to get a handle on QoS and bandwidth-shaping concerns (together with overall network layout -- shove everything onto one GbE switch, or plan a completely separate segment for TV?) would be appreciated. I'm still not even completely clear on whether the TV rides on the excess capacity of the link between home and VRAD or rides IP to points more distant and eats into the "High-Speed Internet" throughput when someone's viewing.
Best would be to connect the STBs directly to the Ethernet and/or HPNA ports on the RG, and leave one Ethernet port open for your GbE switch, to which you connect all your other networked devices. Then the RG can manage the bridging as discussed above. If you have more than 3 STBs, get them to pony up another switch which does the bridging protocols correctly, and use that to connect the STBs.

TV is IP all the way and can potentially slow down your HSI a bit if you have the full out Max plan (18 Mb/sec).


* TV on PC?
With so many triple-plays being advertised, I've lost track of whether this is even supposed to be a part of U-Verse. Is it possible, is it considered part of the service, and is it supported in any fashion for non-Windows -- *NIX/Linux/Macintosh -- users? Basically, if it's being offered, how's it being offered from the technical person-stuck-with-making-it-work standpoint?
No TV on PC at this point -- the only box that can digest the IPTV stream is their STB with standard video/audio outputs.

* Voice / VoIP
I gather that, going forward, U-Verse is standardizing on VoIP for voice. What are the QoS concerns, if any? Or is QoS enforced at the RG [as [part of bridging it off to analog ports], and the only "voice" traffic ever seen on the customer's LAN will be use of "extra features" like web voicemail?
U-verse Voice is VoIP with QoS managed by the RG and upstream. There is no voice carried over the home network downstream of the RG -- you plug your wired phone system into the RG's analog phone port.
My groan from the peanut gallery is thus: A reason I've preferred "telecom" companies, including The New AT&T, compared to entrants from certain other industries (television), has been the culture of reliability, particularly concerning worst-case/emergency preparedness. As we all know, POTS, by design, is quite capable of providing a dialtone under even the most adverse circumstances... and until recently, for various reasons and coincidences, the 'telecom' approach to consumer broadband happened to be DSL, which permitted/encouraged/did-not-collide-with continued use of POTS.

Now, with U-Verse Voice, if I have this right, the customer is being asked to maintain [and put up with the beeping from] their own UPS... which is apparently a "consumer" model Belkin or similar, capable of maintaining power for a paltry four hours if no one plugged something stupid into it. I realize there must have been many reasons to "give up" and do what "everyone else" (your friends in cable) does, but my first impression remains Have you lost your minds? The VRAD must still maintain backup power, and it should be a no-brainer to provide at least POTS-style power alongside the new-school physical link -- at which point y'all could trumpet the advantages thereof.

See, this would allow the RG to [be designed to] degrade gracefully; it could be as simple as split power planes -- the high-wattage IP/router side gets the wall-wart, the POTS bridge operates independently from telco power -- or as complex as building a lithium battery right into the unit, preserving TV and Internet in a degraded "emergency" state [56kb/s is still enough to send an email or a couple "I'm alive" IMs] for as long as reasonable when wall power goes, with the POTS bridge still powered from outside when everything else is dead.

Admittedly this may increase the risk of lightning or related electrical damage to customer equipment compared to a wholly copper-free install, but there are ways to mitigate that, and it's part of what I've been paying the "real telco" premium for. If all that stands between me and outage is a low-spec Belkin (which, for all I know, it might violate the ToS to replace with something beefier)... I might as well get service from people whose concept of reliability is "at least you can catch it in reruns."
Or just give up, get naked DSL, and find the voice and entertainment services from third parties... since adding the backup power and ensuring lights-out reliability is going to fall on me, either way.

(Of course, yes, I'm welcome to pay the "real telco premium" twice to maintain a POTS line alongside U-Verse, but at that point I might as well stick to a standard DSL pairing and get the TV from a dish.)
First, U-verse Voice comes with an AT&T supplied UPS for the RG -- it's not supplied by the consumer. Second, cable has exactly the same scheme -- a UPS for the cable modem -- it's not better. Third, you can have POTS and VDSL on the same pair, so technically you could have both U-verse Voice and POTS together, but I don't think AT&T allows you to order/provision that. You can have either U-verse Voice or POTS on a given pair.

If I were you and really, really wanted a real POTS backup line, I'd simply order a second phone line with minimal POTS -- you can get it for like $15/month with all fees/taxes with metered service.

Floid

join:2002-02-11
Ridgefield, CT

Thanks for the above MyDogHsFleas, basically nailed everything down. Shame the TV-on-PC option isn't available yet but hopefully that means they'll "do it right" if they ever do. [re: 'doing it right' -- as far as I'm concerned, just being able to address the DVR in a manner equivalent to a 'HDHomeRun' box would be the way to go, avoiding the need for any wacky authentication or encryption techniques on each host].

quote:
First, U-verse Voice comes with an AT&T supplied UPS for the RG -- it's not supplied by the consumer. Second, cable has exactly the same scheme -- a UPS for the cable modem -- it's not better. Third, you can have POTS and VDSL on the same pair, so technically you could have both U-verse Voice and POTS together, but I don't think AT&T allows you to order/provision that. You can have either U-verse Voice or POTS on a given pair.

If I were you and really, really wanted a real POTS backup line, I'd simply order a second phone line with minimal POTS -- you can get it for like $15/month with all fees/taxes with metered service.
Note that I certainly never said that cable was "better," and I'm aware that T is "providing" the UPS (which means the customer is paying, in the end... just as the customer pays for the more reliable off-premises backups with POTS). I just honestly believe (or can't believe) the chance was missed to leverage the existing infrastructure and know-how to build a more resilient voice offering that'd outshine cable and be fully idiot-proofed.

Obviously going co-POTS or U-Verse sans-voice is an option... Just kind of a silly option for the obvious reasons. (So much for a combined bill; so much for 'going with the flow' of the infrastructure upgrades if the infrastructure isn't resilient enough to replace POTS in a true disaster -- or yearly New England winter storm...)

...

Also @ Mr. Anon: This is why further technical detail would be useful. If the Cisco 'just works' where something 'cheaper than Cisco' doesn't then chances are the switch simply needs to support some known and named standard for QoS tagging. Being told "buy XXX" is not very helpful, but being told "the standard involved is ___" allows an informed geek to do the right thing. (Probably also some sort of jumbo-framing issue there for all I know; I haven't had a reason to play with GbE yet so I don't know how bad the lowest-of-low-end hardware is.)

There are at least a half dozen ways to implement QoS on ethernet-like networks before you even get into the mechanisms for QoS at the IP level, so (I know, repeating myself) an actual answer that narrows it down would... be common courtesy, as far as informing customers how to use the service properly and not 'break' it.


rambler358

join:2009-05-21
Torrance, CA

said by Floid See Profile :

Shame the TV-on-PC option isn't available yet but hopefully that means they'll "do it right" if they ever do.
I believe it currently can be done, but you'll need a video card or PC TV tuner card with video inputs on it. You can then connect the analog outputs of the STB, and you should be good to go. Note that you'll pay another $7/month for the additional STB connected.

nthach

join:2009-02-11
·Comcast

reply to MyDogHsFleas
The problem with the UPS is that people fail to notice when the battery goes bad in them - I recall Comcast was using wall-mounted Arris VoIP modems with a internally-mounted Antec/APC UPS in the garage years ago - and those used old school VRLA glass-mat batteries, which is similar to the ones found in a common UPS or a Prius(as the 12V "boot" battery for the car).

Newer EMTAs use NiMHs or Li-Ions which are more tolerant to charge cycles than lead-acid. From my Internet observations, AT&T is still using the old school UPS.
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