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 danclan
join:2005-11-01
Midlothian, VA | reply to cbrain
Re: Anyone sucessfully switched from PPPoE to DHCP? You can do it. However, it requires that your internet service be completely halted as they have break and rebuild your circuit. This can take anywhere from 24 hours to 2 weeks....and there will usually be issues....so its not advised. | |
cbrain
join:2000-05-21
Silver Spring, MD Reviews:
 ·Future Nine Corp..
·Google Voice
 ·Verizon FiOS
 ·DSL EXTREME
 ·Comcast
·VoicePulse for B..
| said by pflog:I'm not sure it's possible... Because of the technology or the bureaucracy?
said by pflog:...you might want to post in the Verizon Direct forum and ask them. If anyone can do it and will know what you're talking about, it'd be them. If there isn't a way to convert you, I think a disconnect then re-connect might be your only hope. Been there ... done that.
Placed a FiOS order with DSL Extreme earlier this week. I qualified but haven't heard back. I suspect they can't place the order as long as I have active FiOS.
said by danclan:You can do it. However, it requires that your internet service be completely halted as they have break and rebuild your circuit. This can take anywhere from 24 hours to 2 weeks....and there will usually be issues....so its not advised. I'm committed to getting it done, it's just a matter of how.
Starting to sound like the best route is to go Comcast for a while. I'll get DHCP, higher speed and lower price for 6 months.
PS: I have 5 Verizon FiOS promos, 2 in addressed envelopes. All are new this week. | | |
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 PoloDudePremium,VIP
join:2006-03-29
Northport, NY
kudos:2 | Just wondering why being on PPOE bothers you so much?
Others can jump in with the math but i remember it being about 1% of the overhead. | |
cbrain
join:2000-05-21
Silver Spring, MD Reviews:
·Future Nine Corp..
·Google Voice
·Verizon FiOS
·DSL EXTREME
·Comcast
·VoicePulse for B..
| said by PoloDude:Just wondering why being on PPOE bothers you so much? Others can jump in with the math but i remember it being about 1% of the overhead. Why is my reasoning important to you? Since Verizon offers this from my CO, shouldn't a long term customer willing to endure a difficult transition be allowed the same options as a new user.
My reasons are no secret.
1. I log into several systems that use IP authentication. DHCP offers a much more stable IP.
2. Why waste the overhead, no matter how insignificant, for an inferior system.
3. I want it, and all the neighbors I helped install have it.
4. I can get it from Comcast or a Verizon FiOS re-seller and will get it when and if I come back to Verizon. | |
| If you use several systems that require IP authentication, wouldn't a Static IP be a better option? | |
cbrain
join:2000-05-21
Silver Spring, MD Reviews:
·Future Nine Corp..
·Google Voice
·Verizon FiOS
·DSL EXTREME
·Comcast
·VoicePulse for B..
| said by sameshtdd:If you use several systems that require IP authentication, wouldn't a Static IP be a better option? Agreed. I love a good single malt but have a bit too much Scot in me to pay more than the price of Johnnie Walker Black. ISP's used to get IP's free and I think still do. Until they lower the price, I must compromise. I've lived with PPPoE for over 4 years. DHCP is a good first step. | |
 cdruGo ColtsPremium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:5
·Frontier FiOS
| reply to cbrain
said by cbrain:1. I log into several systems that use IP authentication. DHCP offers a much more stable IP. Neither is inherently more stable then the other. Both have mechanisms to reacquire the same IP address. Both have the ability to force an IP address to change if required when a lease times out. I've had both from Verizon with either DSL or with FiOS and both VERY rarely change but they have changed with either technology. If you are using any type of authentication that requires your IP address to be semi-static, you will have the exact same issues either way.
2. Why waste the overhead, no matter how insignificant, for an inferior system. You are reducing the data payload 8 bytes of a 1500 byte maximum, or 1/2 of 1% of the total capacity. Your line isn't absolutely provisioned for exactly 10/2, 20/5 or whatever your subscribed plan is. It's more of a soft limit that you'll usually bounce around sometimes a little more or sometimes a little less. "Wasting" or not wasting 8 bytes will have ZERO noticeable effect on your throughput of a 10+mbit connection.
There's no problem with wanting DHCP or PPPoE and I'm not trying to discourage you from switching if you want. It's your prerogative. I'm just trying to state factual information. | |
cbrain
join:2000-05-21
Silver Spring, MD Reviews:
·Future Nine Corp..
·Google Voice
·Verizon FiOS
·DSL EXTREME
·Comcast
·VoicePulse for B..
| said by cdru:Neither is inherently more stable then the other. Both have mechanisms to reacquire the same IP address. Both have the ability to force an IP address to change if required when a lease times out. ... While this may be technically true ... it absolutely does not work that way in the real world. At least in any area I've worked. Can you come up with any real advantage to PPPoE for the end user?
How much real difference will most of the new speeds make on a residential connection? Isn't it up to each user to make their own choice?
There's no problem with wanting DHCP or PPPoE and I'm not trying to discourage you from switching if you want. It's your prerogative. I'm just trying to state factual information.
Thanks. | |
 pflogBueller? Bueller?Premium,MVM
join:2001-09-01
El Dorado Hills, CA
kudos:3 | reply to cdru
said by cdru:said by cbrain:1. I log into several systems that use IP authentication. DHCP offers a much more stable IP. Neither is inherently more stable then the other. Both have mechanisms to reacquire the same IP address. Both have the ability to force an IP address to change if required when a lease times out. I've had both from Verizon with either DSL or with FiOS and both VERY rarely change but they have changed with either technology. If you are using any type of authentication that requires your IP address to be semi-static, you will have the exact same issues either way. I respectfully disagree. By the very nature of DHCP, it tries to retain the same IP address by renewing the lease 1/2 way through the lease duration. Barring a complete "reboot" or restart of the DHCP server, you will continue to get the same IP address. PPPoE on the other hand will give you a new IP every time (unless otherwise configured differently on the server side).
PPPoE adds 2 additional points of failure. The PPPoE server and the radius server for authentication. All you have to do is go through the AT&T forums to see various reports of "sync no surf", which is a problem with the PPPoE server or radius server preventing authentication and establishment of the tunnel.
In fact, I ditched SBC (now AT&T) at the time, because they were moving people from real static IPs to "sticky" PPPoE IPs (PPPoE that assigns the same IP each time) because I didn't want to have my connection rely on the PPPoE/radius servers, which were problematic (at least for SBC).
Granted, a DHCP server can also go down, but in my experience with PPPoE, I lost my IP much, much more frequently than with DHCP.
--
He who is not contented with what he has, would not be contented with what he would like to have. -Socrates | |
cdruGo ColtsPremium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:5 Reviews:
·Frontier FiOS
| reply to cbrain
said by cbrain:While this may be technically true ... it absolutely does not work that way in the real world. At least in any area I've worked. Can you come up with any real advantage to PPPoE for the end user? I don't know if it's still the case, but back with DSL PPPoE customers were over provisioned more then DHCP to account for the overhead. As a result their real-world speeds were often faster then their DHCP counterparts. Other then that, there isn't really a advantage for PPPoE for the end user. The real benefit was on the ISP/telco side of the network as existing communication and billing infrastructures that were used for dialup were easily reused for broadband connections. The PPPoE connection was just treated as another "dial up" connection and metering or other information was easily integrated.
Anymore the connection setup and tear down that is required with PPPoE is essentially transparent to the end user as a router handles it on demand or just keeps it alive.
How much real difference will most of the new speeds make on a residential connection? I'm not sure where this fits in with discussing PPPoE, but the new speeds for an overwhelming majority of users won't make too much of a difference as they are only using a fraction of their bandwidth anyways. Large downloads maybe will be quicker, but if a webpage loads in a fraction of a second anyways, a few milliseconds shaved off of that won't be noticeable. For streaming content, as long as there is enough bandwidth to satisfy the stream additional bandwidth is just icing.
Isn't it up to each user to make their own choice? Honestly, no. I don't think it's a "choice" of the consumer. You are paying for a internet connection. PPPoE or DHCP, they are both industry norms and very widely supported. If it was some obscure technology that no one supported then people can complain. But who cares what format the data is transmitted. As long as you get your stated speed, low latency, and don't have packet loss, what difference does it really make if it was transmitted even using a string and two cups? | |
cdruGo ColtsPremium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:5 Reviews:
·Frontier FiOS
| reply to pflog
said by pflog:I respectfully disagree. By the very nature of DHCP, it tries to retain the same IP address by renewing the lease 1/2 way through the lease duration. Barring a complete "reboot" or restart of the DHCP server, you will continue to get the same IP address. PPPoE on the other hand will give you a new IP every time (unless otherwise configured differently on the server side). With DHCP, you have an explicit lease that expires at a regular interval. With PPPoE, it's assigned to your connection. Now the connection may be closed (either forcibly by the ISP or via a network/hardware failure) but as long as your router stays connected you'll usually stick with the same address. I just rebooted my router several times and the newly established PPPoE connection each time always grabbed the same IP address.
PPPoE adds 2 additional points of failure. The PPPoE server and the radius server for authentication. All you have to do is go through the AT&T forums to see various reports of "sync no surf", which is a problem with the PPPoE server or radius server preventing authentication and establishment of the tunnel. Well, this is the Verizon forum, not the AT&T. Verizon will screw up your billing, but you'll get a reliable connection. Apparently AT&T might be able to get the billing straight, can't figure out the connection part. Perhaps the two companies should merge or something. 
Seriously though, yes it is an additional point of failure. But any ISP, especially of Verizon or AT&T's size should have high availability/redundancy in their systems. If they don't, then it's not a failure of the technology but rather of the specific implementation. Specifically with Verizon FiOS, I don't think I've ever had a PPPoE related issue since being one of the early adopters of FiOS.
Granted, a DHCP server can also go down, but in my experience with PPPoE, I lost my IP much, much more frequently than with DHCP. Prior to resetting my router just now, my existing IP address was 11 days old and that was just as far back as my logs went. Yes it's not static, but it's also not very dynamic either. Whether your address is changing every couple days or every couple of month, the thing is that under either scenario, the address has change. Neither offers guaranteed static addressing and the address could change at any time if there was a major issue somewhere in the network.
If you need to authenticate via IP address, neither technology is perfect for 100% "uptime" authenticating. If you just need pseudo-static addressing without needing to actually pay for it, either technology with Verizon (both with DSL and FiOS) will work from my experience without issue. If you need to contact your machine remotely, use one of the dynamic dns services out there...the changes either way are infrequent enough to cause not too many problems.
Me personally, I would not want to go through the red tape. I trust Verizon to keep my connection operating as long as I don't make major changes. Switching from PPPoE to DHCP or anything that contains the works "rebuild", "connection", or "account" is like playing russian roulette with billing. If the existing connection is stable and you aren't having problems, I don't think the gains justify the risks. But if you are having problems, can live without an internet connection for a day (or possibly a week [or two]), or you feel lucky, then go for it. | |
cbrain
join:2000-05-21
Silver Spring, MD Reviews:
·Future Nine Corp..
·Google Voice
·Verizon FiOS
·DSL EXTREME
·Comcast
·VoicePulse for B..
| reply to cdru
said by cdru:I don't know if it's still the case, but back with DSL PPPoE customers were over provisioned more then DHCP to account for the overhead. As a result their real-world speeds were often faster then their DHCP counterparts. Other then that, there isn't really a advantage for PPPoE for the end user. ... So that overhead does make a difference. 
said by cdru:said by cbrain:Isn't it up to each user to make their own choice? Honestly, no. I don't think it's a "choice" of the consumer. You are paying for a internet connection. PPPoE or DHCP, they are both industry norms and very widely supported. If it was some obscure technology that no one supported then people can complain. But who cares what format the data is transmitted. As long as you get your stated speed, low latency, and don't have packet loss, what difference does it really make if it was transmitted even using a string and two cups? My choice would be to not use a string and two cups.
I had USNet/Covad DSL with a static IP in '99/2000, and never would consider DSL using PPPoE. When I ordered FiOS, my understanding was they were planning to transition us in a year or 2. I have written confirmation this is still the plan but no date.
My current array of choices include terminating FiOS for 31 days the re-ordering from Verizon or a FiOS reseller. I am attempting to eliminate the overhead of so many changes for both Verizon and myself. | |
cdruGo ColtsPremium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:5 Reviews:
·Frontier FiOS
| said by cbrain:So that overhead does make a difference. Point taken, but in the case of DSL it was from the days when 1.5mbit was the fastest you could get for about 2x what FiOS costs these days and people really bitched about not getting every last drop that they were paying for. On a 768 or 1500 kbit connection, 8 bytes per packet feels like a lot more then what it does on a 20mbit connection.
Good luck with whatever you end up doing. Be sure to follow up with the experience for others to reference in the future. | |
pflogBueller? Bueller?Premium,MVM
join:2001-09-01
El Dorado Hills, CA
kudos:3 | reply to cdru
said by cdru:With DHCP, you have an explicit lease that expires at a regular interval. With PPPoE, it's assigned to your connection. Now the connection may be closed (either forcibly by the ISP or via a network/hardware failure) but as long as your router stays connected you'll usually stick with the same address. I just rebooted my router several times and the newly established PPPoE connection each time always grabbed the same IP address. In my experience, reconnecting a PPPoE session meant a new IP address EVERY time. If Verizon is doing something differently or they have a larger IP address pool then I could see getting the same IP address. If the PPPoE server dies, guess what? You not only lose your connection, you lose your IP address. If a DHCP server goes down, chances are you wouldn't even notice unless it was an extended outage and the leases database typically survives a restart of the DHCP server (at least the software DHCP servers I know of).
Well, this is the Verizon forum, not the AT&T. Verizon will screw up your billing, but you'll get a reliable connection. Apparently AT&T might be able to get the billing straight, can't figure out the connection part. Perhaps the two companies should merge or something.
Seriously though, yes it is an additional point of failure. But any ISP, especially of Verizon or AT&T's size should have high availability/redundancy in their systems. If they don't, then it's not a failure of the technology but rather of the specific implementation. Specifically with Verizon FiOS, I don't think I've ever had a PPPoE related issue since being one of the early adopters of FiOS. Well apparently AT&T/SBC did not (do not?) utilize any sort of redundancy or live fail over because when the PPPoE server went tits up, you knew it immediately
Prior to resetting my router just now, my existing IP address was 11 days old and that was just as far back as my logs went. Yes it's not static, but it's also not very dynamic either. Whether your address is changing every couple days or every couple of month, the thing is that under either scenario, the address has change. Neither offers guaranteed static addressing and the address could change at any time if there was a major issue somewhere in the network. I think you'll have a hard time convincing anyone who has used both DHCP and PPPoE that they have similar IP address retention. Far from it.
If you need to authenticate via IP address, neither technology is perfect for 100% "uptime" authenticating. If you just need pseudo-static addressing without needing to actually pay for it, either technology with Verizon (both with DSL and FiOS) will work from my experience without issue. If you need to contact your machine remotely, use one of the dynamic dns services out there...the changes either way are infrequent enough to cause not too many problems. I think the OP would beg to differ. He's obviously wanting to move from PPPoE to DHCP for a reason. Yes of course it's not static, but it does provide more stability as far as how long you keep an IP address.
Me personally, I would not want to go through the red tape. I trust Verizon to keep my connection operating as long as I don't make major changes. Switching from PPPoE to DHCP or anything that contains the works "rebuild", "connection", or "account" is like playing russian roulette with billing. If the existing connection is stable and you aren't having problems, I don't think the gains justify the risks. But if you are having problems, can live without an internet connection for a day (or possibly a week [or two]), or you feel lucky, then go for it.
I wouldn't suggest the OP do it either. If Verizon had their sh*t together, they could do the conversion much more quickly and the OP wouldn't have had to start this thread. 
--
He who is not contented with what he has, would not be contented with what he would like to have. -Socrates | |
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