Fobulous
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join:2002-08-14
Missouri City, TX
 ·Comcast
| 2009 VW Jetta TDI or 2009 Toyota Prius
I'm in the market for a fuel efficent vechicle.
Well, after about 2 weeks of test driving it has come down to two vechiles that are still hold interest for me.
1) 2009 VW Jetta TDI (Clean diseal engine)
2) 2009 Toyota Prius (II)
I heard numerous things about reliability problems with the previous VW.. but heard good things about the newly designed 2009 Jetta TDI..
Test Drive:
I really like the way Jetta TDI handles the roads, it felt very nimble and really quick on the move, i guess it's because of the bigger torque versus Prius? I also the like the looks of the Jetta better, i dunno about the Prius, it's a great car and super reliable but the looks is really an "acquired taste" if you know what i mean...
I'm just wondering if anyone here has any input on these two vehicles especially the 2009 VW TDI.
I'm not going to put links for the reviews of these two cars because anyone can just do a quick Google or Bing...
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dirtyjeffer
Lest We Forget
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON
·Rogers Hi-Speed
1 edit | i do like the Prius...it's a toyota, so you know it is well made...it gets great fuel economy, so it is a smart choice...but, the smart money is in the Jetta...the diesel is only a $2300 price premium over the gasoline model (in Canada), but get substantially better fuel economy over the gas models (your government may offer rebates on these too, so look into that)...as well, diesel is (currently) less expensive than gasoline...diesel engines last longer as they are more "heavy duty"...they are less complicated as they have no ignition system (spark plugs, wires and high voltage ignition systems)...i believe you can also go much longer between oil change intervals as well.
the main thing is the carbon footprint...i mean, if you are buying one of these cars to be "good for the environment", the diesel wins again...the Prius, as cool as it is, has something like 500 pounds of batteries in it, and who knows how much that will cost to replace down the road, and what about all that waste??
for fun, have a peek: »www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKTOyiKLARk
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Today's motto: Dearly beloved, We are gathered here today to bid farewell to personal responsibility and accountability. |
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3SGTE
ST215W
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-23
there
clubs:
| Dirty Jeffer,
You have posted a load of rubbish.
said by dirtyjeffer  :diesel engines last longer as they are more "heavy duty"...they are less complicated as they have no ignition system (spark plugs, wires and high voltage ignition systems)...i believe you can also go much longer between oil change intervals as well. The engine in the VW is far more complex than nearly any gasoline engine, including the one in the Prius.
General statements about oil change intervals are useless; refer to the owner's manual.
As for "heavy duty"-ness determining lifespan, that is a crock. A modern diesel engine has a number of ancillary components that have a high likelihood of requiring replacement or repair over the life of the vehicle.
said by dirtyjeffer :the main thing is the carbon footprint...i mean, if you are buying one of these cars to be "good for the environment", the diesel wins again...the Prius, as cool as it is, has something like 500 pounds of batteries in it, and who knows how much that will cost to replace down the road, and what about all that waste?? for fun, have a peek: (youtube clip) Hello?
The battery in the Prius is 86 pounds, not 500.
»https://techinfo.toyota.com/techInfoPort···fpb=true (open the Prius second generation PDF to find the battery weight)
The Prius weighs (2010 MY) 243 pounds less than the VW. Less material = less waste (using your logic)
Prius 3042 pounds (edmunds)
VW 3285 pounds (edmunds)
As for the carbon footprint?
The overall fuel economy of the Prius is better than the VW.
In addition, the per km CO2 output of the VW is about 20% higher than that of the Prius.
(Prius 104 g/km, VW 130 g/km)
»www.tdicurious.ca/2009/02/faq-%E···-diesel/
»www.hybridsynergydrive.com/en/pr···ons.html
Please go spout rubbish somewhere else.
As for the OP's question, he needs to decide based on
-driving dynamics (win for the VW)
-tactile/sensory feedback (diesel is a dealbreaker here for me)
-reliability (win for the Prius) »www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars···y-ov.htm
-economy (hands down win for the Prius for me - I am 90% urban stop and go commute)
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dirtyjeffer
Lest We Forget
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON
·Rogers Hi-Speed
| said by 3SGTE :
Dirty Jeffer,
You have posted a load of rubbish.
no i haven't.
quote:
The engine in the VW is far more complex than nearly any gasoline engine, including the one in the Prius.
General statements about oil change intervals are useless; refer to the owner's manual.
As for "heavy duty"-ness determining lifespan, that is a crock. A modern diesel engine has a number of ancillary components that have a high likelihood of requiring replacement or repair over the life of the vehicle.
a diesel engine is not very complex, and i can't say exactly for sure about the VW one, but in most cases, diesel engines use cast iron blocks and heads, which are less susceptible to warping and gasket failures...as well, less oil changes is important...for one, it may save money in terms of maintenance, but that also means you aren't using so much oil (after all, it is supposed to be a "Green" car)...the engine principle is the same in both vehicles, with the difference being the VW will have a simple turbo-charger and direct injection diesel fuel delivery to the engine...the atkinson cycle engine in the Prius is comparable in "complexity" to a standard Otto cycle engine, but then you also have the more complex electrical systems involved in charging the batteries, integrating the electric motor to the drivetrain to work with the engine/transmission, the regenerative brake systems, and the high voltage battery pack itself...then of course, the Prius uses a CVT in place of a manual or automatic transmission (those are also fairly new and the reliability is up in the air on those)...the Prius is FAR more complex, and i know you know a lot about cars, so you should realize that.
quote:
Hello?
The battery in the Prius is 86 pounds, not 500.
»https://techinfo.toyota.com/techInfoPort···fpb=true (open the Prius second generation PDF to find the battery weight)
The Prius weighs (2010 MY) 243 pounds less than the VW. Less material = less waste (using your logic)
Prius 3042 pounds (edmunds)
VW 3285 pounds (edmunds)
ok, i was wrong on the weight of the battery, as they have reduced that over the years, but my point still stands about the cost and longevity of it...you don't have to worry about that with the VW at all...i remember a few years ago, they were saying that used hybrids aren't worth a dime for resale because of that fact...the estimated the replacement batteries would be in the thousands of dollars (originally, it was something like $8,000, but i am sure that has come down over the years, but it is still going to VERY expensive)...in contrast, the resale value of the TDI VW's are VERY good...i don't know where you live, so perhaps diesels are not very common where you are (for some reason, Americans don't like diesels very much), but here in Canada, over 50% of EVERY VW sold is a TDI model...and buying a used one brings in top dollar...they work very well, get great gas mileage, are a nice car to drive/own and are quite reliable.
quote:
As for the carbon footprint?
The overall fuel economy of the Prius is better than the VW.
In addition, the per km CO2 output of the VW is about 20% higher than that of the Prius.
(Prius 104 g/km, VW 130 g/km)
»www.tdicurious.ca/2009/02/faq-%E···-diesel/
»www.hybridsynergydrive.com/en/pr···ons.html
the carbon footprint doesn't just come from the tailpipe...if you watched the youtube video, you would see my "point"...take a look at how those batteries are made, and factor all that "carbon footprint" into the equation, and you will see that the REAL CARBON FOOTPRINT is significantly higher.
quote:
Please go spout rubbish somewhere else.
i'm not spouting rubbish...i think i have explained my points very well.
quote:
As for the OP's question, he needs to decide based on
-driving dynamics (win for the VW)
-tactile/sensory feedback (diesel is a dealbreaker here for me)
-reliability (win for the Prius) »www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars···y-ov.htm
-economy (hands down win for the Prius for me - I am 90% urban stop and go commute)
hey, don't get me wrong, i like the Prius too...i just think a lot of people look at some marketing material and think its the best thing since sliced bread, which it isn't...the VW won "Green Car of the Year", because it truly is an environmentally friendly vehicle, not just in terms of sipping fuel, but in terms of its impact on the Earth to produce it...i think the VW would be the better "driver", and while i would agree with you on the reliability of Toyota over VW, the several people i know who own them have had NO issues whatsoever (i am talking newer models, like 2006 and newer)...you mention the tactile/sensory feedback being a dealbreaker, which leads me to believe you have some preconceived bias and/or have not driven the new models...they are no different from their gasoline counterparts...economy will differ depending on how you drive and where you drive (temp, etc)...in real world tests, both cars get comparable fuel economy...of course, my point above comes into play down the road...when you want to sell your vehicle in 7 years, what is a used Prius going to be worth versus a used Jetta TDI, knowing that those batteries are going to need to be replaced in the near future?...i think there are lots of things to consider here, but there is more to picking a new car than looking at the brochure and commercials with lots of pretty flowers and sunshine.
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Today's motto: Dearly beloved, We are gathered here today to bid farewell to personal responsibility and accountability. |
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Mospaw
Head Ache
Hawaiian Jellyfish
join:2001-01-08
The Pacific
·Cox HSI
Host:
Road Warriors, Not..
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Automotive
| Just a reminder, that this is a fact-based technical forum. That's not to say that opinions, when requested, are not welcome. But please do be careful that what is posted as a fact is, in fact, a fact, and not conjecture, an untruth, or a disguised opinion.
Readers are encouraged to verify claims made by other posters.
It's also best not continue to refute someone who when presented with hard truths and facts digs up more "facts". Thank you. |
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3SGTE
ST215W
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-23
there
clubs:
1 edit | reply to dirtyjeffer
Just a quick reply this time.
1. That video is entertainment only. The supposed "information" about nickel for the battery and lifecycle costs are fabrications from a report that has been debunked thoroughly. (see PDF below)
2. Nothing about the engine on the VW is simple. You are far off target on that.
3. The Prius does not use a metalbelt-type CVT in place of an A/T or M/T. It uses a planetary gearset and a pair of motors. By varying motor speed and load, this ratio resulting from the planetary gearset is varied continuously.
EDIT: Has never used a metalbelt type CVT
4. 85% (or better) of a vehicle's carbon footprint comes from vehicle operation. Not from manufacturing. (see PDF below)
5. Just as with other grossly inaccurate claims, your battery price is also grossly inaccurate. It currently stands at $2300.
»www.autobloggreen.com/2008/09/24···cheaper/
The nickel thing, lifecycle cost exaggerations, debunking of Prius VS SUV and others are thoroughly explained in the following PDF:
»www.pacinst.org/topics/integrity···rius.pdf
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Striving for Parfection. |
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dirtyjeffer
Lest We Forget
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON
·Rogers Hi-Speed
| said by 3SGTE :
Just a quick reply this time.
1. That video is entertainment only. The supposed "information" about nickel for the battery and lifecycle costs are fabrications from a report that has been debunked thoroughly. (see PDF below)
of course it is entertainment, but it does have some merit.
quote:
2. Nothing about the engine on the VW is simple. You are far off target on that.
it isn't any more complicated than the Prius, which was my point (in fact, it is probably more simple).
quote:
3. The Prius does not use a metalbelt-type CVT in place of an A/T or M/T. It uses a planetary gearset and a pair of motors. By varying motor speed and load, this ratio resulting from the planetary gearset is varied continuously.
the older ones use a CVT (at least, that is what it was called before)...either way, it is not a simple manual or "more common" automatic transmission.
quote:
4. 85% (or better) of a vehicle's carbon footprint comes from vehicle operation. Not from manufacturing. (see PDF below)
all new cars are very good in terms of emissions...the subtle difference between either car is negligible.
quote:
5. Just as with other grossly inaccurate claims, your battery price is also grossly inaccurate. It currently stands at $2300.
»www.autobloggreen.com/2008/09/24···cheaper/
i already said it has probably come down in price, but that is still going be at least $2600 plus tax, plus whatever the cost is to install them...those are costs you simply don't have with the diesel car.
all i am trying to say, is to objectively look at both cars...you seem to really push the Prius, for probably no other reason than it is a Toyota, but there are other options, and they should be considered as well.
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Today's motto: Dearly beloved, We are gathered here today to bid farewell to personal responsibility and accountability. |
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PrntRhd
join:2004-11-03
Fairfield, CA
·Comcast
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| reply to Fobulous
Any "study" done by a "marketing research group" should be investigated thoroughly, the potential for conflict of interest is too high and you should challenge their results. The methods they use to get their conclusions may not stand up to the light of day. That difference is the difference between fact and "spin".
Both cars give great mileage, either one is a decent pick. |
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3SGTE
ST215W
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-23
there
clubs: | reply to dirtyjeffer
I push neither.
I merely correct that which is wrong.
The OP can make his decision based on facts, not bs.
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Striving for Parfection. |
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comp
Premium
join:2001-08-16
Concord, NC
clubs: | I would say consider the 2010 prius |
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dirtyjeffer
Lest We Forget
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON
·Rogers Hi-Speed
| reply to 3SGTE
said by 3SGTE :I push neither. I merely correct that which is wrong. The OP can make his decision based on facts, not bs. i wish i could agree...you seem to slam the VW diesel pretty hard, and it isn't deserving of it...i have two friends who own them and they are very good cars, and i am not a VW fanboy (i am a Ford guy), so that's saying something.
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Today's motto: Dearly beloved, We are gathered here today to bid farewell to personal responsibility and accountability. |
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PrntRhd
join:2004-11-03
Fairfield, CA
·Comcast
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1 edit | reply to Fobulous
Dirtyjeffer,
Diesel is ok but buyers have a diesel learning curve which the Prius does not have.
Diesel fuel can gel, it also may have to be treated with additives to keep microbes under control. Fuel treatments like this:
»www.powerservice.com/bk/ may be needed to keep filters from clogging, and few automotive maintenance tasks are messier than purging the air from a new diesel fuel system filter.
Your oil change SWAG/reality is exactly opposite, diesels may require more frequent changes because of fuel contamination of the oil...but it really does not matter except the impression you left that diesel was trouble free. It is manageable but not a free ride. |
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Lurch77
Stop looking at me.
Premium
join:2001-11-22
+44.88-87.89
| reply to Fobulous
The VW comes with Carefree Maintenance Program. That's something to consider. All scheduled maintenance for 3 years is done and paid for by VW. Add that up and you have a considerable savings. »www.autoblog.com/2008/04/23/vw-a···-models/
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mityfowl
join:2000-11-06
Dallas, TX
| reply to Fobulous
Personally I think I'm getting sold on the Pirus for an in town vehicle or something with this amount of engineering.
I love the idea of regenerative braking but I have no idea of the long term costs.
I think Toyota offers a 100,000 mile bumper to bumper on the Pirus for like $900. |
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dirtyjeffer
Lest We Forget
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON
·Rogers Hi-Speed
| reply to PrntRhd
said by PrntRhd :
Dirtyjeffer,
Diesel is ok but buyers have a diesel learning curve which the Prius does not have.
i don't get it...why do you guys hate diesels so much??...there is no learning curve...you drive it like you do any other car...the only difference is, when you fill up, you put diesel in the tank instead of gasoline.
quote:
Diesel fuel can gel, it also may have to be treated with additives to keep microbes under control. Fuel treatments like this:
»www.powerservice.com/bk/ may be needed to keep filters from clogging, and few automotive maintenance tasks are messier than purging the air from a new diesel fuel system filter.
nope, not needed...unless you guys have crap fuel down there...you just fill it up, and drive...my friend gets almost 1200 kms on a tank of diesel (mostly highway driving as he is a corporate account rep that spends a lot of time on the highway...his fuel savings are pay for the car payment, which is why he bought it)...also, our diesel (and i would assume yours is the same) is Low Sulphur Diesel Fuel, so it is much cleaner than the diesel from 20 years ago that perhaps many of you are still thinking about.
quote:
Your oil change SWAG/reality is exactly opposite, diesels may require more frequent changes because of fuel contamination of the oil...but it really does not matter except the impression you left that diesel was trouble free. It is manageable but not a free ride.
i never said it was trouble free, but it certainly isn't the complex mess some of you guys seem to make it out to be.
i think a good thing would be for the OP to take both vehicles out for a drive...compare what you get for the price, and check to see what the other costs are for the vehicles (maintenance, battery replacement for the hybrid, brake jobs, etc).
as i said, the new TDI Jetta Clean Diesel won "Green Car of the Year" for a reason.
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Today's motto: Dearly beloved, We are gathered here today to bid farewell to personal responsibility and accountability. |
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xkunalx
join:2004-12-27
West Chicago, IL
| reply to Fobulous
personally, I would go with the TDI since both vehicles have similar MPG and the TDI is more fun to drive. The TDI has free maintenance and looks more mainstream than the Prius. Both however, would be great choices and you're unlikely to go wrong either way. Good Luck. |
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3SGTE
ST215W
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-23
there
clubs:
| reply to mityfowl
said by mityfowl :I love the idea of regenerative braking but I have no idea of the long term costs. Regenerative braking is quite literally a free ride. The systems required to implement regenerative braking are already on the vehicle as part of the primary propulsion system.
One consequence is reduced wear on brake pads - however that isn't an additional cost.
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Striving for Parfection. |
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mityfowl
join:2000-11-06
Dallas, TX
| I doubt if you are correct that there are not additional costs associated with regenerative braking and the storage of that energy.
Brakes wear out and so do alternators and batteries.
This isn't the thread but I would like to more about the pitfalls and costs, true costs of this type of technology. I really doubt weather Ford or GM would have brought or could have ever brought this technology to the market.
I'm not buying it yet though. |
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dirtyjeffer
Lest We Forget
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON
·Rogers Hi-Speed
| reply to Fobulous
another thing that wasn't mentioned was price.
now, i don't know what they sell for in your area, but a nicely equipped Prius up here is about $32,000...the top model is just over $36,000...a nicely equipped Jetta TDI is about $27,000 or the top model with Leather and Moonroof is just under $30,000...that is a good $6,000 less expensive...as well, diesel is about 15-20% cheaper than gas (currently up here)...and it looks like both will probably qualify for some government rebates.
here is some more info on the TDI: »tdi.vw.com/
this will help debunk the myths about "learning curves" with a diesel (because they apply to hybrids, not diesels) and the issue about them not starting in the cold (as it gets plenty cold up here, and there are plenty of them around).
i'm not saying you should get the TDI, just keep it on your short list...that's all...they really are very good cars.
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Today's motto: Dearly beloved, We are gathered here today to bid farewell to personal responsibility and accountability. |
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3SGTE
ST215W
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-23
there
clubs:
| Here is a Price comparator:
»autos.yahoo.com/car-compare/over···eghost=1
Pricing
Anyone can get real prices.
In addition, there are also options at the bottom of the page to allow anyone to select the options that are important to them.
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Striving for Parfection. |
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