3SGTE
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| reply to dirtyjeffer
Re: 2009 VW Jetta TDI or 2009 Toyota Prius
Dirty Jeffer,
You have posted a load of rubbish.
said by dirtyjeffer  :diesel engines last longer as they are more "heavy duty"...they are less complicated as they have no ignition system (spark plugs, wires and high voltage ignition systems)...i believe you can also go much longer between oil change intervals as well. The engine in the VW is far more complex than nearly any gasoline engine, including the one in the Prius.
General statements about oil change intervals are useless; refer to the owner's manual.
As for "heavy duty"-ness determining lifespan, that is a crock. A modern diesel engine has a number of ancillary components that have a high likelihood of requiring replacement or repair over the life of the vehicle.
said by dirtyjeffer :the main thing is the carbon footprint...i mean, if you are buying one of these cars to be "good for the environment", the diesel wins again...the Prius, as cool as it is, has something like 500 pounds of batteries in it, and who knows how much that will cost to replace down the road, and what about all that waste?? for fun, have a peek: (youtube clip) Hello?
The battery in the Prius is 86 pounds, not 500.
»https://techinfo.toyota.com/techInfoPort···fpb=true (open the Prius second generation PDF to find the battery weight)
The Prius weighs (2010 MY) 243 pounds less than the VW. Less material = less waste (using your logic)
Prius 3042 pounds (edmunds)
VW 3285 pounds (edmunds)
As for the carbon footprint?
The overall fuel economy of the Prius is better than the VW.
In addition, the per km CO2 output of the VW is about 20% higher than that of the Prius.
(Prius 104 g/km, VW 130 g/km)
»www.tdicurious.ca/2009/02/faq-%E···-diesel/
»www.hybridsynergydrive.com/en/pr···ons.html
Please go spout rubbish somewhere else.
As for the OP's question, he needs to decide based on
-driving dynamics (win for the VW)
-tactile/sensory feedback (diesel is a dealbreaker here for me)
-reliability (win for the Prius) »www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars···y-ov.htm
-economy (hands down win for the Prius for me - I am 90% urban stop and go commute)
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dirtyjeffer
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 ·Rogers Hi-Speed
| said by 3SGTE :
Dirty Jeffer,
You have posted a load of rubbish.
no i haven't.
quote:
The engine in the VW is far more complex than nearly any gasoline engine, including the one in the Prius.
General statements about oil change intervals are useless; refer to the owner's manual.
As for "heavy duty"-ness determining lifespan, that is a crock. A modern diesel engine has a number of ancillary components that have a high likelihood of requiring replacement or repair over the life of the vehicle.
a diesel engine is not very complex, and i can't say exactly for sure about the VW one, but in most cases, diesel engines use cast iron blocks and heads, which are less susceptible to warping and gasket failures...as well, less oil changes is important...for one, it may save money in terms of maintenance, but that also means you aren't using so much oil (after all, it is supposed to be a "Green" car)...the engine principle is the same in both vehicles, with the difference being the VW will have a simple turbo-charger and direct injection diesel fuel delivery to the engine...the atkinson cycle engine in the Prius is comparable in "complexity" to a standard Otto cycle engine, but then you also have the more complex electrical systems involved in charging the batteries, integrating the electric motor to the drivetrain to work with the engine/transmission, the regenerative brake systems, and the high voltage battery pack itself...then of course, the Prius uses a CVT in place of a manual or automatic transmission (those are also fairly new and the reliability is up in the air on those)...the Prius is FAR more complex, and i know you know a lot about cars, so you should realize that.
quote:
Hello?
The battery in the Prius is 86 pounds, not 500.
»https://techinfo.toyota.com/techInfoPort···fpb=true (open the Prius second generation PDF to find the battery weight)
The Prius weighs (2010 MY) 243 pounds less than the VW. Less material = less waste (using your logic)
Prius 3042 pounds (edmunds)
VW 3285 pounds (edmunds)
ok, i was wrong on the weight of the battery, as they have reduced that over the years, but my point still stands about the cost and longevity of it...you don't have to worry about that with the VW at all...i remember a few years ago, they were saying that used hybrids aren't worth a dime for resale because of that fact...the estimated the replacement batteries would be in the thousands of dollars (originally, it was something like $8,000, but i am sure that has come down over the years, but it is still going to VERY expensive)...in contrast, the resale value of the TDI VW's are VERY good...i don't know where you live, so perhaps diesels are not very common where you are (for some reason, Americans don't like diesels very much), but here in Canada, over 50% of EVERY VW sold is a TDI model...and buying a used one brings in top dollar...they work very well, get great gas mileage, are a nice car to drive/own and are quite reliable.
quote:
As for the carbon footprint?
The overall fuel economy of the Prius is better than the VW.
In addition, the per km CO2 output of the VW is about 20% higher than that of the Prius.
(Prius 104 g/km, VW 130 g/km)
»www.tdicurious.ca/2009/02/faq-%E···-diesel/
»www.hybridsynergydrive.com/en/pr···ons.html
the carbon footprint doesn't just come from the tailpipe...if you watched the youtube video, you would see my "point"...take a look at how those batteries are made, and factor all that "carbon footprint" into the equation, and you will see that the REAL CARBON FOOTPRINT is significantly higher.
quote:
Please go spout rubbish somewhere else.
i'm not spouting rubbish...i think i have explained my points very well.
quote:
As for the OP's question, he needs to decide based on
-driving dynamics (win for the VW)
-tactile/sensory feedback (diesel is a dealbreaker here for me)
-reliability (win for the Prius) »www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars···y-ov.htm
-economy (hands down win for the Prius for me - I am 90% urban stop and go commute)
hey, don't get me wrong, i like the Prius too...i just think a lot of people look at some marketing material and think its the best thing since sliced bread, which it isn't...the VW won "Green Car of the Year", because it truly is an environmentally friendly vehicle, not just in terms of sipping fuel, but in terms of its impact on the Earth to produce it...i think the VW would be the better "driver", and while i would agree with you on the reliability of Toyota over VW, the several people i know who own them have had NO issues whatsoever (i am talking newer models, like 2006 and newer)...you mention the tactile/sensory feedback being a dealbreaker, which leads me to believe you have some preconceived bias and/or have not driven the new models...they are no different from their gasoline counterparts...economy will differ depending on how you drive and where you drive (temp, etc)...in real world tests, both cars get comparable fuel economy...of course, my point above comes into play down the road...when you want to sell your vehicle in 7 years, what is a used Prius going to be worth versus a used Jetta TDI, knowing that those batteries are going to need to be replaced in the near future?...i think there are lots of things to consider here, but there is more to picking a new car than looking at the brochure and commercials with lots of pretty flowers and sunshine.
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Mospaw
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| Just a reminder, that this is a fact-based technical forum. That's not to say that opinions, when requested, are not welcome. But please do be careful that what is posted as a fact is, in fact, a fact, and not conjecture, an untruth, or a disguised opinion.
Readers are encouraged to verify claims made by other posters.
It's also best not continue to refute someone who when presented with hard truths and facts digs up more "facts". Thank you. |
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3SGTE
ST215W
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join:2000-11-23
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1 edit | reply to dirtyjeffer
Just a quick reply this time.
1. That video is entertainment only. The supposed "information" about nickel for the battery and lifecycle costs are fabrications from a report that has been debunked thoroughly. (see PDF below)
2. Nothing about the engine on the VW is simple. You are far off target on that.
3. The Prius does not use a metalbelt-type CVT in place of an A/T or M/T. It uses a planetary gearset and a pair of motors. By varying motor speed and load, this ratio resulting from the planetary gearset is varied continuously.
EDIT: Has never used a metalbelt type CVT
4. 85% (or better) of a vehicle's carbon footprint comes from vehicle operation. Not from manufacturing. (see PDF below)
5. Just as with other grossly inaccurate claims, your battery price is also grossly inaccurate. It currently stands at $2300.
»www.autobloggreen.com/2008/09/24···cheaper/
The nickel thing, lifecycle cost exaggerations, debunking of Prius VS SUV and others are thoroughly explained in the following PDF:
»www.pacinst.org/topics/integrity···rius.pdf
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dirtyjeffer
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London, ON
·Rogers Hi-Speed
| said by 3SGTE :
Just a quick reply this time.
1. That video is entertainment only. The supposed "information" about nickel for the battery and lifecycle costs are fabrications from a report that has been debunked thoroughly. (see PDF below)
of course it is entertainment, but it does have some merit.
quote:
2. Nothing about the engine on the VW is simple. You are far off target on that.
it isn't any more complicated than the Prius, which was my point (in fact, it is probably more simple).
quote:
3. The Prius does not use a metalbelt-type CVT in place of an A/T or M/T. It uses a planetary gearset and a pair of motors. By varying motor speed and load, this ratio resulting from the planetary gearset is varied continuously.
the older ones use a CVT (at least, that is what it was called before)...either way, it is not a simple manual or "more common" automatic transmission.
quote:
4. 85% (or better) of a vehicle's carbon footprint comes from vehicle operation. Not from manufacturing. (see PDF below)
all new cars are very good in terms of emissions...the subtle difference between either car is negligible.
quote:
5. Just as with other grossly inaccurate claims, your battery price is also grossly inaccurate. It currently stands at $2300.
»www.autobloggreen.com/2008/09/24···cheaper/
i already said it has probably come down in price, but that is still going be at least $2600 plus tax, plus whatever the cost is to install them...those are costs you simply don't have with the diesel car.
all i am trying to say, is to objectively look at both cars...you seem to really push the Prius, for probably no other reason than it is a Toyota, but there are other options, and they should be considered as well.
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3SGTE
ST215W
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join:2000-11-23
there
clubs: | I push neither.
I merely correct that which is wrong.
The OP can make his decision based on facts, not bs.
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comp
Premium
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Concord, NC
clubs: | I would say consider the 2010 prius |
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dirtyjeffer
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·Rogers Hi-Speed
| reply to 3SGTE
said by 3SGTE :I push neither. I merely correct that which is wrong. The OP can make his decision based on facts, not bs. i wish i could agree...you seem to slam the VW diesel pretty hard, and it isn't deserving of it...i have two friends who own them and they are very good cars, and i am not a VW fanboy (i am a Ford guy), so that's saying something.
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Today's motto: Dearly beloved, We are gathered here today to bid farewell to personal responsibility and accountability. |
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dirtyjeffer
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London, ON
·Rogers Hi-Speed
| reply to dirtyjeffer
said by dirtyjeffer :
said by 3SGTE :
3. The Prius does not use a metalbelt-type CVT in place of an A/T or M/T. It uses a planetary gearset and a pair of motors. By varying motor speed and load, this ratio resulting from the planetary gearset is varied continuously.
the older ones use a CVT (at least, that is what it was called before)...either way, it is not a simple manual or "more common" automatic transmission.
i just wanted to point out, that i never mentioned anything about a "metalbelt-type CVT"...i simply stated that they use a CVT transmission, which most people don't like...the Prius (and the other hybrid Toyota models) DO in fact use a CVT transmission...Ford also used them for a couple of models in their Five Hundred and Freestyle models over the last couple of years, but dropped them and went back to an automatic transmission.
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Today's motto: Dearly beloved, We are gathered here today to bid farewell to personal responsibility and accountability. |
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dennismurphy
Put me on hold? I'll put YOU on hold
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Parsippany, NJ
·Optimum Online
| said by dirtyjeffer : Ford also used them for a couple of models in their Five Hundred and Freestyle models over the last couple of years, but dropped them and went back to an automatic transmission. .... which is a shame. I had a Ford Freestyle with the CVT in it, and it was great. No concerns at all - and a much "simpler" transmission in terms of moving parts.
Long-term reliability 20 years down the road TBD, but it was fun while I had it.
Now I have an '08 Ford Fusion with a traditional automatic, and it's OK, but I actually enjoyed driving the CVT! |
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dirtyjeffer
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London, ON
·Rogers Hi-Speed
| said by dennismurphy :Now I have an '08 Ford Fusion with a traditional automatic, and it's OK, but I actually enjoyed driving the CVT! you are the minority...even the Nissan Maxima with the CVT is getting it listed as in the "CONS" side...it might be one of those things that people warm up to, but the word is verdict is still out on CVT's and whether they are better or not.
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Today's motto: Dearly beloved, We are gathered here today to bid farewell to personal responsibility and accountability. |
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comp
Premium
join:2001-08-16
Concord, NC
clubs: | my wifes CVT in her freestyle i like alot. I have a 6-speed auto and it is eh |
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dirtyjeffer
Oh Yeah
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON | yea, despite their great reviews, remind me again how well the Five Hundred and Freestyle sold again??  |
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comp
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Concord, NC
clubs: | freestyle's sold very well and are still around under the taurus label. the five hundred was a POS |
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dirtyjeffer
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·Rogers Hi-Speed
| said by comp :freestyle's sold very well and are still around under the taurus label. the five hundred was a POS freestyle's did not sell very well, and while they did relabel it the Taurus X, it has also been discontinued and is not made anymore...the Five Hundred is the same car, so it can't be a POS (and was rated fairly well)...the current Taurus (which is also about to be completely replaced) is nothing more than the Five Hundred with a new grill and powertrain...the new Taurus however, is completely revised, inside and out.
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Today's motto: Dearly beloved, We are gathered here today to bid farewell to personal responsibility and accountability. |
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comp
Premium
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Concord, NC
clubs: | from reading around the net the freestyle did quite well for the 3-4 years it was around. it never had a shot though once ford released the edge |
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dirtyjeffer
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London, ON
·Rogers Hi-Speed
1 edit | hey, don't get me wrong...the freestyle is a good vehicle, and received strong reviews, but in terms of sales, it (and the Five Hundred) were a flop...it is why they re-labaled them as the Taurus, and why they have a completely new model coming in as we speak...and the "X" version has been dropped...not because it wasn't any good, but because it wasn't selling.
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3SGTE
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1 edit | reply to dirtyjeffer
said by dirtyjeffer :snip Re-read my post.
Stop and consider what "ratio ... is varied continuously" might mean. My post describes transmission operation and construction.
Other manufacturers have mild hybrids that couple a conventional (metalbelt type CVT) with a small electric motor. This method is not used for the Prius.
As for the "most people don't like CVTs" statement, that is ridiculous. Many manufacturers have successful CVT models.
Edit:
fixed broken quote tags |
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dirtyjeffer
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London, ON
·Rogers Hi-Speed
| Nissan is about the only brand really pushing CVT's, and their popularity is partially due to the fact that if you don't take a manual transmission, you get their CVT.
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PolarBear
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·CableOne
| reply to 3SGTE
Not to argue for either vehicle, but diesel engines are inherently simpler. They have no throttle body or ignition. Also, diesel engines do last much longer than gasoline engines.
There's a big reason why the trucking industry uses diesel engines - my last Freightliner had 833,000 miles on it (original engine). Ran like a champ.
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