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 Jim Gurd Premium join:2000-07-08 Plymouth, MI
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| Ethanol in gasoline I've been conducting some experiments on the gasoline sold in my area. I live in the Metro Detroit area and we have a 7.0 maximum RVP requirement for all gasoline sold during the summer months.
Every station I have tested so far has been selling 100% pure gasoline. I've come to the conclusion that because of the low RVP requirement they are not blending ethanol because it would cause the RVP to spike out of control.
Even Sunoco is 100% gas. Their pumps say that it contains 10% ethanol but I tested it and it came back as ethanol free.
I got my test kit from here. One drop of the Quik-Check solution in a sample confirmed the absence of ethanol in all of the brands I tested. It will be interesting to see the results of testing the winter blends. -- The Mogambo Guru economic newsletter, an avocational exercise to heap disrespect on those who desperately deserve it. | |
|   3SGTE ST215W Premium,MVM join:2000-11-23 there clubs: | Re: Ethanol in gasoline Dumb question perhaps, but it is my understanding that the higher the RVP#, the greater the ease with which the gasoline can evaporate.
Have I got that the right way round? -- Striving for Parfection. | |
|  |   Jim Gurd Premium join:2000-07-08 Plymouth, MI
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| Re: Ethanol in gasoline Yes, that's correct. I believe conventional gasoline has a RVP of 9.0 (and higher than that in the winter to allow easier starting in cold weather). Adding even a small percentage of ethanol causes the RVP to rise significantly.
One advantage of low RVP gasoline is that it reduces the chances of getting vapor lock in hot weather. It is less volatile and evaporates much more slowly (and therefore pollutes less from evaporative losses). In the winter the RVP must be increased in order for the gasoline to vaporize properly so you can get the engine started.
One interesting thing I read was that gas companies must run their tanks to almost dry before switching over to low RVP gas. Even a small amount of regular in the tank will cause the low RVP fuel to lose its low RVP properties. They run them virtually dry before making the changeover. This is one reason for price spikes during the conversion from winter gasoline to summer gasoline. -- The Mogambo Guru economic newsletter, an avocational exercise to heap disrespect on those who desperately deserve it. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |   joako Premium join:2000-09-07 /dev/null
·AT&T U-Verse
| Re: Ethanol in gasoline 7.8 RVP would also be no ethanol?
No wonder gasoline in South Florida is about $0.25/gallon more than the rest of the state. -- PRescott7-2097 | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   Greg_Z Premium join:2001-08-08 Springfield, IL | The pump stickers do not state that they DO contain 10% Ethanol, but that they MAY contain in the mix. -- I threw out the map a long time ago. Now I follow my own direction! | |
|  |  |  |  |   Greg_Z Premium join:2001-08-08 Springfield, IL | Re: Ethanol in gasoline Read the label, since ours here in IL state that the fuel in the pump "May" contain 10% Ethanol. -- I threw out the map a long time ago. Now I follow my own direction! | |
|  |  |  |   Jim Gurd Premium join:2000-07-08 Plymouth, MI | Re: Ethanol in gasoline I did. It says "Contains 10% ethanol". | |
|  |  |  |  |   Greg_Z Premium join:2001-08-08 Springfield, IL | Re: Ethanol in gasoline And, every state is different. As long as the label states that it Does, or may, does it really make a difference. -- I threw out the map a long time ago. Now I follow my own direction! | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   texans20 Weapons of Masturbation Premium join:2002-09-28 Texas! clubs:
| Re: Ethanol in gasoline said by Greg_Z :And, every state is different. As long as the label states that it Does, or may, does it really make a difference. Yes the difference is huge. One means it does, and the other means it might. Pretty simple. -- Farming the Tard | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |   hitachi369 Embrace Your Rights Premium join:2001-10-03 Grand Rapids, MI
·AT&T U-Verse
| Re: Ethanol in gasoline said by texans20 :said by Greg_Z :And, every state is different. As long as the label states that it Does, or may, does it really make a difference. Yes the difference is huge. One means it does, and the other means it might. Pretty simple. Send them a angry letter, I'm sure they can add a "may" in there. -- STOP THE NSA WIRETAPS
They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security ~Benjamin Franklin | |
|  Fat City Premium join:2003-03-10 Freedonia | Did you try testing a known sample of ethanol just to make sure your little test kit works? Just to confirm your string of negative results... | |
|  |  |  |  |   Greg_Z Premium join:2001-08-08 Springfield, IL | Re: Ethanol in gasoline So, Everclear has Methanol mixed in it now. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   Greg_Z Premium join:2001-08-08 Springfield, IL | Re: Ethanol in gasoline0; In order for Everclear to be classified as Ethanol, it has to contain Methanol. Everclear is a grain alcohol, not Ethanol. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   StNickless
@tmodns.net
| Re: Ethanol in gasoline0;0; Chemistry 101
Ethyl Methyl
2 entirely different beasts, wiki it...
quote: Ethanol, also called ethyl alcohol, pure alcohol, grain alcohol, or drinking alcohol, is a volatile, flammable, colorless liquid. It is a psychoactive drug, best known as the type of alcohol found in alcoholic beverages and in modern thermometers. Ethanol is one of the oldest recreational drugs. In common usage, it is often referred to simply as alcohol or spirits.
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|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   Greg_Z Premium join:2001-08-08 Springfield, IL
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| Re: Ethanol in gasoline0;0; Methanol is mixed with Ethyl Alcohol to make it Ethanol for use as a fuel. Grain Alcohol is just that, simple Ethyl alcohol. And no, I am not a dumb shit, just someone that actually uses common sense & yes I do know how this works.
What the test is looking for, is both Methanol & Ethanol chemical bonds, It will pick up on just the Grain Ethyl, but to properly test to see if the device is working, is not use Everclear, but Ethyl/Methyl mix. -- I threw out the map a long time ago. Now I follow my own direction! | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   Doctor Olds I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me. Premium,VIP join:2001-04-19 1970 442 W30 clubs:
| said by Greg_Z :Methanol is mixed with Ethyl Alcohol to make it Ethanol for use as a fuel. Grain Alcohol is just that, simple Ethyl alcohol. Wrong! Then they would call it Methanol, not Ethanol.
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol quote: Ethanol, also called ethyl alcohol, pure alcohol, grain alcohol, or drinking alcohol, is a volatile, flammable, colorless liquid. It is a psychoactive drug, best known as the type of alcohol found in alcoholic beverages and in modern thermometers. Ethanol is one of the oldest recreational drugs. In common usage, it is often referred to simply as alcohol or spirits.
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol quote: Methanol, also known as methyl alcohol, carbinol, wood alcohol, wood naphtha or wood spirits, is a toxic chemical with chemical formula CH3OH (often abbreviated MeOH). Drinking even small amounts can cause blindness. It is the simplest alcohol, and is a light, volatile, colourless, flammable, toxic liquid with a distinctive odor that is very similar but slightly sweeter than ethanol (drinking alcohol).
-- Whats the point of owning a supercar if you cant scare yourself stupid from time to time? | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   Greg_Z Premium join:2001-08-08 Springfield, IL
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| Re: Ethanol in gasoline0;0; Ethanol (also known as ethyl alcohol or grain alcohol) is the "alcohol" found in alcoholic beverages. "Denatured" means that it has been made toxic or undrinkable, often by adding methanol or denatonium, to give it a very bitter taste. This minimizes the drug value of the alcohol, and also exempts it from expensive alcohol taxes. »www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/E85
In all honestly, everyone argued about different aspects, but no one ever thought of the fact that we where talking about Ethyl Alcohol used as a fuel for vehicles, not for drinking. And yes, I can back up what I have stated repeatedly about Methanol added in small amounts to keep Ethanol being used as a beverage when used in fuels. As for the OP orig. question, you are talking very small quantities of Ethanol in the gas hydrocarbon mix, that your tester may not pick up. Test it with E85, and then get back. -- I threw out the map a long time ago. Now I follow my own direction! | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   No_Strings Premium,Mod join:2001-11-22 The OC | Re: Ethanol in gasoline0;0; You did a complete about-face, contradicted at least three of your own statements and proclaimed complete vindication. You should be working for the press office of a politician. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   Doctor Olds I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me. Premium,VIP join:2001-04-19 1970 442 W30 clubs:
| said by Greg_Z :Ethanol (also known as ethyl alcohol or grain alcohol) is the "alcohol" found in alcoholic beverages. "Denatured" means that it has been made toxic or undrinkable, often by adding methanol or denatonium, to give it a very bitter taste. This minimizes the drug value of the alcohol, and also exempts it from expensive alcohol taxes. » www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/E85In all honestly, You don't think that gasoline mixed in with it makes the pure ethanol undrinkable alone? Get a clue, Please. If you swap polarity any faster, you will start generating an electrical field.  -- Whats the point of owning a supercar if you cant scare yourself stupid from time to time? | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   neonhomer Honoray Mythbuster Premium join:2004-01-27 Edgewater, FL clubs: | Re: Ethanol in gasoline0;0; IIRC, doesn't Methanol cause fuel system problems? I remember reading in a few vehicle owners manuals where it says you can run up to 10% ethanol (pre E85), but that you cannot use Methanol as it will degrade fuel system components. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  PrntRhd
join:2004-11-03 Fairfield, CA
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·Comcast Formerly ..
3 edits | said by Greg_Z :Methanol is mixed with Ethyl Alcohol to make it Ethanol for use as a fuel. Grain Alcohol is just that, simple Ethyl alcohol. And no, I am not a dumb shit, just someone that actually uses common sense & yes I do know how this works. What the test is looking for, is both Methanol & Ethanol chemical bonds, It will pick up on just the Grain Ethyl, but to properly test to see if the device is working, is not use Everclear, but Ethyl/Methyl mix. You don't know what you are talking about, and this is not the first time this week you were told that too.
"You can't fix stupid"- Ron White | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   Doctor Olds I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me. Premium,VIP join:2001-04-19 1970 442 W30 clubs:
| said by Greg_Z :In order for Everclear to be classified as Ethanol, it has to contain Methanol. Everclear is a grain alcohol, not Ethanol. Nope. You are confused.
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol quote: Alcohols can be used as a beverage (ethanol only), as fuel and for many scientific, medical, and industrial utilities. Ethanol in the form of alcoholic beverages has been consumed by humans since pre-historic times. A 50% v/v solution of ethylene glycol in water is commonly used as an antifreeze.
Some alcohols, mainly ethanol and methanol, can be used as an alcohol fuel.
-- Whats the point of owning a supercar if you cant scare yourself stupid from time to time? | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  severach
join:2002-09-12 Jackson, MI
| Have you tested fuel purchased outside of your 7.0 RVP restricted area?
Have you tested your gasoline with the water kit to ensure the tracer dye is working properly? You don't need a marked vial unless you want to know the concentration. Pour the water contaminated test sample into the intake to discard it.
It doesn't make sense to supply E0 since E9 or better gets them a waiver. Pump labeling is simple with E10 or less which means the mix needs to be pretty accurate.
Marathon Summer 2009 Reid Vapor Pressure (RVP) Regulatory Requirements quote: You are encouraged to review the gasoline volatility regulations Title 40 Code of Federal Regulations Part 80 with your attorney to understand your compliance obligations.
If you or your carrier splash-blend ethanol and gasoline, the RVP regulations provide a 1 psi waiver for ethanol blends provided that:
1. the base gasoline meets the applicable RVP standard; 2. the blend contains between 9 and 10 percent ethanol by volume, excluding the denaturing agent; and 3. no additional alcohol or other additive or component has been added to increase the volatility of the ethanol portion of the blend.
If ethanol-blended gasoline is mixed with straight gasoline during the RVP control season and the ethanol content of the mixture drops below 9 percent, you will lose the 1 psi waiver.. Since it takes less than four percent ethanol to add a full 1 psi to the vapor pressure, the absence of the waiver would cause this product to violate the RVP standard.
Violations of the gasoline RVP regulations are subject to fines under the U.S. Clean Air Act of up to $37,500 per day of violation, plus any economic benefit derived from the violation. If the EPA finds a violation at any point in the gasoline distribution network, there is a regulatory presumption of liability for that party and all parties upstream of where the violation was found
quote: Michigan 7.0 RVP (Detroit area)
The state of Michigan has implemented a low vapor pressure program where gasoline with a maximum RVP of 7.0 psi is required from June 1 through September 15. Federal RFG is a complying substitute for the 7.0 RVP under Michigan regulations. The covered area is the Detroit metro area. (See Attachment I.)
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|  |   Jim Gurd Premium join:2000-07-08 Plymouth, MI
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| Re: Ethanol in gasoline said by severach :Have you tested fuel purchased outside of your 7.0 RVP restricted area? No, most of my driving is within the 7.0 RVP area. If I travel outside there I may test it but haven't yet.
said by severach :Have you tested your gasoline with the water kit to ensure the tracer dye is working properly? You don't need a marked vial unless you want to know the concentration. Pour the water contaminated test sample into the intake to discard it. Yes.
said by severach :It doesn't make sense to supply E0 since E9 or better gets them a waiver. Pump labeling is simple with E10 or less which means the mix needs to be pretty accurate. It only qualifies for a 1 PSI waiver. Adding 10% ethanol will cause the RVP to spike much higher than 8 RVP so it would make the base gasoline more expensive to produce in order to keep the RVP limit to 8. It's most likely cheaper to make 7 RVP gas and not add ethanol to it.
said by severach :Marathon Summer 2009 Reid Vapor Pressure (RVP) Regulatory Requirements quote: You are encouraged to review the gasoline volatility regulations Title 40 Code of Federal Regulations Part 80 with your attorney to understand your compliance obligations.
If you or your carrier splash-blend ethanol and gasoline, the RVP regulations provide a 1 psi waiver for ethanol blends provided that:
1. the base gasoline meets the applicable RVP standard; 2. the blend contains between 9 and 10 percent ethanol by volume, excluding the denaturing agent; and 3. no additional alcohol or other additive or component has been added to increase the volatility of the ethanol portion of the blend.
If ethanol-blended gasoline is mixed with straight gasoline during the RVP control season and the ethanol content of the mixture drops below 9 percent, you will lose the 1 psi waiver.. Since it takes less than four percent ethanol to add a full 1 psi to the vapor pressure, the absence of the waiver would cause this product to violate the RVP standard.
Violations of the gasoline RVP regulations are subject to fines under the U.S. Clean Air Act of up to $37,500 per day of violation, plus any economic benefit derived from the violation. If the EPA finds a violation at any point in the gasoline distribution network, there is a regulatory presumption of liability for that party and all parties upstream of where the violation was found
quote: Michigan 7.0 RVP (Detroit area)
The state of Michigan has implemented a low vapor pressure program where gasoline with a maximum RVP of 7.0 psi is required from June 1 through September 15. Federal RFG is a complying substitute for the 7.0 RVP under Michigan regulations. The covered area is the Detroit metro area. (See Attachment I.)
I must say I was surprised by the results. I expected all of the gasoline in this area to contain ethanol but after researching things I can see why they don't add it in the summer due to the RVP requirements.
It will be extremely interesting to see the results for winter gasoline since a higher RVP is necessary for cold starting in winter conditions. -- The Mogambo Guru economic newsletter, an avocational exercise to heap disrespect on those who desperately deserve it. | |
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