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Jim Gurd
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join:2000-07-08
Plymouth, MI
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Ethanol in gasoline

I've been conducting some experiments on the gasoline sold in my area. I live in the Metro Detroit area and we have a 7.0 maximum RVP requirement for all gasoline sold during the summer months.

Every station I have tested so far has been selling 100% pure gasoline. I've come to the conclusion that because of the low RVP requirement they are not blending ethanol because it would cause the RVP to spike out of control.

Even Sunoco is 100% gas. Their pumps say that it contains 10% ethanol but I tested it and it came back as ethanol free.

I got my test kit from here. One drop of the Quik-Check solution in a sample confirmed the absence of ethanol in all of the brands I tested. It will be interesting to see the results of testing the winter blends.
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3SGTE
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Re: Ethanol in gasoline

Dumb question perhaps, but it is my understanding that the higher the RVP#, the greater the ease with which the gasoline can evaporate.

Have I got that the right way round?
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Jim Gurd
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Plymouth, MI
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Re: Ethanol in gasoline

Yes, that's correct. I believe conventional gasoline has a RVP of 9.0 (and higher than that in the winter to allow easier starting in cold weather). Adding even a small percentage of ethanol causes the RVP to rise significantly.

One advantage of low RVP gasoline is that it reduces the chances of getting vapor lock in hot weather. It is less volatile and evaporates much more slowly (and therefore pollutes less from evaporative losses). In the winter the RVP must be increased in order for the gasoline to vaporize properly so you can get the engine started.

One interesting thing I read was that gas companies must run their tanks to almost dry before switching over to low RVP gas. Even a small amount of regular in the tank will cause the low RVP fuel to lose its low RVP properties. They run them virtually dry before making the changeover. This is one reason for price spikes during the conversion from winter gasoline to summer gasoline.
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Jim Gurd
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join:2000-07-08
Plymouth, MI

Re: Ethanol in gasoline

Here is a map of the boutique fuel requirements nationwide.

»www.mobil.com/USA-English/GFM/Fi···_Map.pdf

joako
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Re: Ethanol in gasoline

said by Jim Gurd See Profile :

Here is a map of the boutique fuel requirements nationwide.

»www.mobil.com/USA-English/GFM/Fi···_Map.pdf
7.8 RVP would also be no ethanol?

No wonder gasoline in South Florida is about $0.25/gallon more than the rest of the state.
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Jim Gurd
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Plymouth, MI
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Re: Ethanol in gasoline

said by joako See Profile :

said by Jim Gurd See Profile :

Here is a map of the boutique fuel requirements nationwide.

»www.mobil.com/USA-English/GFM/Fi···_Map.pdf
7.8 RVP would also be no ethanol?

No wonder gasoline in South Florida is about $0.25/gallon more than the rest of the state.
Not necessarily. It just means it's cheaper to make the gasoline without ethanol. If ethanol is required it will make the base gasoline more costly to produce in order to meet the RVP requirements. El Paso, Texas requires 7.0 RVP gas with ethanol.

Unfortunately if you live in Florida all of your gasoline will be diluted with ethanol by 12/31/2010.

»www.fueltestkit.com/florida_etha···e10.html
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Greg_Z
Premium
join:2001-08-08
Springfield, IL
The pump stickers do not state that they DO contain 10% Ethanol, but that they MAY contain in the mix.
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Jim Gurd
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Plymouth, MI
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Re: Ethanol in gasoline

No, it says it contains 10% ethanol. They could remove them if they wanted because Michigan does not require labeling for concentrations of ethanol of 10% or less.

»www.fueltestkit.com/state_guide_···aws.html
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Greg_Z
Premium
join:2001-08-08
Springfield, IL

Re: Ethanol in gasoline

Read the label, since ours here in IL state that the fuel in the pump "May" contain 10% Ethanol.
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Jim Gurd
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join:2000-07-08
Plymouth, MI

Re: Ethanol in gasoline

I did. It says "Contains 10% ethanol".

Greg_Z
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Springfield, IL

Re: Ethanol in gasoline

And, every state is different. As long as the label states that it Does, or may, does it really make a difference.
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texans20
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Re: Ethanol in gasoline

said by Greg_Z See Profile :

And, every state is different. As long as the label states that it Does, or may, does it really make a difference.
Yes the difference is huge. One means it does, and the other means it might. Pretty simple.
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hitachi369
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Re: Ethanol in gasoline

said by texans20 See Profile :

said by Greg_Z See Profile :

And, every state is different. As long as the label states that it Does, or may, does it really make a difference.
Yes the difference is huge. One means it does, and the other means it might. Pretty simple.
Send them a angry letter, I'm sure they can add a "may" in there.
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Fat City
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join:2003-03-10
Freedonia
Did you try testing a known sample of ethanol just to make sure your little test kit works? Just to confirm your string of negative results...

Jim Gurd
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join:2000-07-08
Plymouth, MI
·Comcast

Re: Ethanol in gasoline

Yes. I have a bottle of Everclear.

The way the initial test works is you take a sample of gasoline and add a drop of the solution to it. If the drop falls to the bottom and doesn't mix it means there is no ethanol in it. I added a small amount (about 10%) of Everclear to the test sample and the Quick Check solution then mixed and turned the sample blue as I expected.
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Greg_Z
Premium
join:2001-08-08
Springfield, IL

Re: Ethanol in gasoline�

So, Everclear has Methanol mixed in it now.�

Jim Gurd
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Plymouth, MI
·Comcast


1 edit

Re: Ethanol in gasoline0;

Click for full size
said by Greg_Z See Profile :

So, Everclear has Methanol mixed in it now.�
Are you really that stupid? Methanol is poisonous. Everclear is 95% ethanol and there is zero methanol in it or else it would kill the person drinking it.

Edit: resized image to fit

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Greg_Z
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join:2001-08-08
Springfield, IL

Re: Ethanol in gasoline0;�

In order for Everclear to be classified as Ethanol, it has to contain Methanol. Everclear is a grain alcohol, not Ethanol.�

StNickless

@tmodns.net

Re: Ethanol in gasoline0;0;

Chemistry 101

Ethyl
Methyl

2 entirely different beasts, wiki it...

quote:
Ethanol, also called ethyl alcohol, pure alcohol, grain alcohol, or drinking alcohol, is a volatile, flammable, colorless liquid. It is a psychoactive drug, best known as the type of alcohol found in alcoholic beverages and in modern thermometers. Ethanol is one of the oldest recreational drugs. In common usage, it is often referred to simply as alcohol or spirits.

Jim Gurd
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Plymouth, MI
·Comcast


1 edit
said by Greg_Z See Profile :

In order for Everclear to be classified as Ethanol, it has to contain Methanol. Everclear is a grain alcohol, not Ethanol.�
You have no idea what you are talking about. Grain alcohol is ethanol. If you drink methanol you will die.

It will not be found in any legally sold alcoholic beverage. Methanol poisoning is one reason people sometimes die from drinking improperly made moonshine.
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Greg_Z
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Springfield, IL
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Re: Ethanol in gasoline0;0;

Methanol is mixed with Ethyl Alcohol to make it Ethanol for use as a fuel. Grain Alcohol is just that, simple Ethyl alcohol. And no, I am not a dumb shit, just someone that actually uses common sense & yes I do know how this works.

What the test is looking for, is both Methanol & Ethanol chemical bonds, It will pick up on just the Grain Ethyl, but to properly test to see if the device is working, is not use Everclear, but Ethyl/Methyl mix.
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Jim Gurd
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Plymouth, MI
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Re: Ethanol in gasoline0;0;

said by Greg_Z See Profile :

Methanol is mixed with Ethyl Alcohol to make it Ethanol for use as a fuel.
No, that's simply not true. There is no methanol in gasoline.

Ethanol is ethyl alcohol.
Methanol is methyl alcohol.

If you're talking about a denaturing agent they simply add gasoline to the ethanol to make it undrinkable. Methanol is found nowhere in motor fuels unless you buy dry gas at the store.
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Doctor Olds
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1970 442 W30
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said by Greg_Z See Profile :

Methanol is mixed with Ethyl Alcohol to make it Ethanol for use as a fuel. Grain Alcohol is just that, simple Ethyl alcohol.
Wrong! Then they would call it Methanol, not Ethanol.

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol
quote:
Ethanol, also called ethyl alcohol, pure alcohol, grain alcohol, or drinking alcohol, is a volatile, flammable, colorless liquid. It is a psychoactive drug, best known as the type of alcohol found in alcoholic beverages and in modern thermometers. Ethanol is one of the oldest recreational drugs. In common usage, it is often referred to simply as alcohol or spirits.
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol
quote:
Methanol, also known as methyl alcohol, carbinol, wood alcohol, wood naphtha or wood spirits, is a toxic chemical with chemical formula CH3OH (often abbreviated MeOH). Drinking even small amounts can cause blindness. It is the simplest alcohol, and is a light, volatile, colourless, flammable, toxic liquid with a distinctive odor that is very similar but slightly sweeter than ethanol (drinking alcohol).
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Greg_Z
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Springfield, IL
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Re: Ethanol in gasoline0;0;

Ethanol (also known as ethyl alcohol or grain alcohol) is the "alcohol" found in alcoholic beverages. "Denatured" means that it has been made toxic or undrinkable, often by adding methanol or denatonium, to give it a very bitter taste. This minimizes the drug value of the alcohol, and also exempts it from expensive alcohol taxes.
»www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/E85

In all honestly, everyone argued about different aspects, but no one ever thought of the fact that we where talking about Ethyl Alcohol used as a fuel for vehicles, not for drinking. And yes, I can back up what I have stated repeatedly about Methanol added in small amounts to keep Ethanol being used as a beverage when used in fuels. As for the OP orig. question, you are talking very small quantities of Ethanol in the gas hydrocarbon mix, that your tester may not pick up. Test it with E85, and then get back.
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No_Strings
Premium,Mod
join:2001-11-22
The OC

Re: Ethanol in gasoline0;0;

You did a complete about-face, contradicted at least three of your own statements and proclaimed complete vindication. You should be working for the press office of a politician.

Jim Gurd
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join:2000-07-08
Plymouth, MI
·Comcast

Click for full size
Only gasoline can be used to denature fuel ethanol
Methanol is not used for motor fuels. Only gasoline can be used for a denaturing agent.

»www.aventinerei.com/pdfs/fuel_grade_spec.pdf

Doctor Olds
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1970 442 W30
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said by Greg_Z See Profile :

Ethanol (also known as ethyl alcohol or grain alcohol) is the "alcohol" found in alcoholic beverages. "Denatured" means that it has been made toxic or undrinkable, often by adding methanol or denatonium, to give it a very bitter taste. This minimizes the drug value of the alcohol, and also exempts it from expensive alcohol taxes.
»www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/E85

In all honestly,
You don't think that gasoline mixed in with it makes the pure ethanol undrinkable alone? Get a clue, Please. If you swap polarity any faster, you will start generating an electrical field.
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neonhomer
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Edgewater, FL
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Re: Ethanol in gasoline0;0;

IIRC, doesn't Methanol cause fuel system problems? I remember reading in a few vehicle owners manuals where it says you can run up to 10% ethanol (pre E85), but that you cannot use Methanol as it will degrade fuel system components.
PrntRhd

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Fairfield, CA
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3 edits
said by Greg_Z See Profile :

Methanol is mixed with Ethyl Alcohol to make it Ethanol for use as a fuel. Grain Alcohol is just that, simple Ethyl alcohol. And no, I am not a dumb shit, just someone that actually uses common sense & yes I do know how this works.

What the test is looking for, is both Methanol & Ethanol chemical bonds, It will pick up on just the Grain Ethyl, but to properly test to see if the device is working, is not use Everclear, but Ethyl/Methyl mix.
You don't know what you are talking about, and this is not the first time this week you were told that too.

"You can't fix stupid"-
Ron White

Doctor Olds
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said by Greg_Z See Profile :

In order for Everclear to be classified as Ethanol, it has to contain Methanol. Everclear is a grain alcohol, not Ethanol.�
Nope. You are confused.

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol
quote:
Alcohols can be used as a beverage (ethanol only), as fuel and for many scientific, medical, and industrial utilities. Ethanol in the form of alcoholic beverages has been consumed by humans since pre-historic times. A 50% v/v solution of ethylene glycol in water is commonly used as an antifreeze.

Some alcohols, mainly ethanol and methanol, can be used as an alcohol fuel.
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Re: Ethanol in gasoline0;

said by Jim Gurd See Profile :

Everclear is 95% ethanol and there is zero methanol in it or else it would kill the person drinking it.
Even so, that shit'll kill you.
severach

join:2002-09-12
Jackson, MI

Have you tested fuel purchased outside of your 7.0 RVP restricted area?

Have you tested your gasoline with the water kit to ensure the tracer dye is working properly? You don't need a marked vial unless you want to know the concentration. Pour the water contaminated test sample into the intake to discard it.

It doesn't make sense to supply E0 since E9 or better gets them a waiver. Pump labeling is simple with E10 or less which means the mix needs to be pretty accurate.

Marathon Summer 2009 Reid Vapor Pressure (RVP) Regulatory Requirements
quote:
You are encouraged to review the gasoline volatility regulations Title 40 Code of Federal Regulations Part 80 with your attorney to understand your compliance obligations.

If you or your carrier splash-blend ethanol and gasoline, the RVP regulations provide a 1 psi waiver for ethanol blends provided that:

1. the base gasoline meets the applicable RVP standard;
2. the blend contains between 9 and 10 percent ethanol by volume, excluding the denaturing agent; and
3. no additional alcohol or other additive or component has been added to increase the volatility of the ethanol portion of the blend.

If ethanol-blended gasoline is mixed with straight gasoline during the RVP control season and the ethanol content of the mixture drops below 9 percent, you will lose the 1 psi waiver.. Since it takes less than four percent ethanol to add a full 1 psi to the vapor pressure, the absence of the waiver would cause this product to violate the RVP standard.

Violations of the gasoline RVP regulations are subject to fines under the U.S. Clean Air Act of up to $37,500 per day of violation, plus any economic benefit derived from the violation. If the EPA finds a violation at any point in the gasoline distribution network, there is a regulatory “presumption” of liability for that party and all parties upstream of where the violation was found
quote:
Michigan 7.0 RVP (Detroit area)

The state of Michigan has implemented a low vapor pressure program where gasoline with a maximum RVP of 7.0 psi is required from June 1 through September 15. Federal RFG is a complying substitute for the 7.0 RVP under Michigan regulations. The covered area is the Detroit metro area. (See Attachment I.)

Jim Gurd
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Plymouth, MI
·Comcast

Re: Ethanol in gasoline

said by severach See Profile :

Have you tested fuel purchased outside of your 7.0 RVP restricted area?
No, most of my driving is within the 7.0 RVP area. If I travel outside there I may test it but haven't yet.
said by severach See Profile :

Have you tested your gasoline with the water kit to ensure the tracer dye is working properly? You don't need a marked vial unless you want to know the concentration. Pour the water contaminated test sample into the intake to discard it.
Yes.
said by severach See Profile :

It doesn't make sense to supply E0 since E9 or better gets them a waiver. Pump labeling is simple with E10 or less which means the mix needs to be pretty accurate.
It only qualifies for a 1 PSI waiver. Adding 10% ethanol will cause the RVP to spike much higher than 8 RVP so it would make the base gasoline more expensive to produce in order to keep the RVP limit to 8. It's most likely cheaper to make 7 RVP gas and not add ethanol to it.
said by severach See Profile :

Marathon Summer 2009 Reid Vapor Pressure (RVP) Regulatory Requirements
quote:
You are encouraged to review the gasoline volatility regulations Title 40 Code of Federal Regulations Part 80 with your attorney to understand your compliance obligations.

If you or your carrier splash-blend ethanol and gasoline, the RVP regulations provide a 1 psi waiver for ethanol blends provided that:

1. the base gasoline meets the applicable RVP standard;
2. the blend contains between 9 and 10 percent ethanol by volume, excluding the denaturing agent; and
3. no additional alcohol or other additive or component has been added to increase the volatility of the ethanol portion of the blend.

If ethanol-blended gasoline is mixed with straight gasoline during the RVP control season and the ethanol content of the mixture drops below 9 percent, you will lose the 1 psi waiver.. Since it takes less than four percent ethanol to add a full 1 psi to the vapor pressure, the absence of the waiver would cause this product to violate the RVP standard.

Violations of the gasoline RVP regulations are subject to fines under the U.S. Clean Air Act of up to $37,500 per day of violation, plus any economic benefit derived from the violation. If the EPA finds a violation at any point in the gasoline distribution network, there is a regulatory “presumption” of liability for that party and all parties upstream of where the violation was found
quote:
Michigan 7.0 RVP (Detroit area)

The state of Michigan has implemented a low vapor pressure program where gasoline with a maximum RVP of 7.0 psi is required from June 1 through September 15. Federal RFG is a complying substitute for the 7.0 RVP under Michigan regulations. The covered area is the Detroit metro area. (See Attachment I.)
I must say I was surprised by the results. I expected all of the gasoline in this area to contain ethanol but after researching things I can see why they don't add it in the summer due to the RVP requirements.

It will be extremely interesting to see the results for winter gasoline since a higher RVP is necessary for cold starting in winter conditions.
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