Digging a hole in limestone

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Digging a hole in limestone

I need to dig a hole 30" x 30" and 4-5 feet deep. The problem I've encountered is that there is only about 6 inches of soil in my yard, then it's limestone. I've spent over three hours and have only gotten down 12 inches. Some of it breaks up pretty easily with a digging bar, but the deeper I get the harder I have to hit it to break it up.

Any tips? I can't get any large equipment to the area. My uncle said to try drilling holes with a hammer drill and dump some hydrochloric acid in there, but I think I'll pass on that idea.

permalink · 2009-07-01 15:07:55 · Print ·

cdru Go Colts Premium,MVM join:2003-05-14 Fort Wayne, IN	Re: Digging a hole in limestone If it's solid, a jack hammer or just a cold forged chisel and sledge and a LOT of work for a hole that size. A masonary saw also may be possible but you'll probably need to start off with a larger hole and work your way down with each pass.
	permalink · 2009-07-01 15:34:04 ·

Pacrat Old and Cranky Premium,MVM join:2001-03-10 Cortland, OH ·RoadRunner Cable	Flagpole foundation? I've used both methods... sledge and a "star" drill, and a big ol' jackhammer. Neither are "good" choices, but the jackhammer is probably the speedier of the two. The best choice is to get someone else to do it for you... like, for a couple of cases of beer and a steak dinner. -- I was born at night... but not last night!
	permalink · 2009-07-01 15:43:31 ·

cowboyro join:2000-10-11 Shelton, CT	Look for a construction/demolition company. There are DIY demolition kits but they are probably more expensive than hiring someone.
	permalink · 2009-07-01 15:44:23 ·

robbin Premium,MVM join:2000-09-21 Leander, TX	You say you can't get any large equipment there. What is the access like? How big of gate etc? Is the ground steep or fairly level?
	permalink · 2009-07-01 23:06:08 ·

Mark910 Premium join:2002-04-21 Dayton, OH clubs:	Go rent an electric jack hammer and spend a few hours busting rock. Return it and spend a day recovering from the jack hammer.
	permalink · 2009-07-02 13:05:51 ·

LazMan join:2003-03-26 Angus, ON	If the stone's pretty solid; are you sure you need to break it up, rather then using it for a foundation for whatever you're doing? Which, of course, brings up the question of - "what are you doing?" Laz
	permalink · 2009-07-02 13:53:47 ·

robbin Premium,MVM join:2000-09-21 Leander, TX	Re: Digging a hole in limestone said by LazMan : Which, of course, brings up the question of - "what are you doing?" I would guess that he is installing a communications tower and that is the hole for the foundation.
	permalink · 2009-07-02 15:44:56 ·

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Re: Digging a hole in limestone

said by robbin

said by LazMan

:

Which, of course, brings up the question of - "what are you doing?"

I would guess that he is installing a communications tower and that is the hole for the foundation.

Bingo.

Access is tough, it's up a hill, and there is a retaining wall that blocks access, and a tree half way between the wall and the house. On the other side the deck is in the way, I can barely squeeze a riding mower with a 42" deck through.

I have something going on almost every weekend this summer, so finding the time to actually work on is another problem. And I've reached the point where I have nowhere to go with the rock I'm digging out, so I need to find some time to haul it away.

permalink · 2009-07-03 22:23:04 · Print ·

drjim
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Re: Digging a hole in limestone

One of my radio buddies used to go mountain-topping all the time for the VHF contests. He always carried a Makita electric "Demolition Hammer" with him, and a supply of anchors made from some kind of steel bar. He could drive the anchors right in to the rock, and most of them are still in the ground on the more popular locations here in SoCal!
--
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permalink · 2009-07-04 00:37:28 ·

mityfowl join:2000-11-06 Dallas, TX	You would be amazed at what you can do with an electric jack hammer and a shovel. Also where they can get to.
	permalink · 2009-07-02 16:58:09 ·

HRM God Bless America Premium,MVM join:2002-02-03 Darien, CT clubs:	I'm pretty sure heat/water combo shatters limestone. If you start a fire in the pit, and quench it, you should find the next xx inches to be easier to get.
	permalink · 2009-07-04 00:55:16 ·

Rxdoxx
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Re: Digging a hole in limestone

said by HRM

:

I'm pretty sure heat/water combo shatters limestone. If you start a fire in the pit, and quench it, you should find the next xx inches to be easier to get.

Interesting heat/cold to crack it. Limestone is used in blast furnaces so it can take high heat, I'd assume ice water to quench it for as much shock value as possible.

Don't know how helpful this will be but vinegar could be a thought. Acids dissolve limestone and Acetic Acid should.
I'm not suggesting dissolving it away, but I'd consider drenching it in vinegar if I was done working on it for a couple of days. Maybe it will penetrate some cracks and make the next attempt at busting it up a little easier when you get back to it a couple of days later.
Just theory, I don't really know, but I'd be trying anything I could think of if there was a chance of it helping.
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permalink · 2009-07-04 14:00:20 · Print ·

HRM
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Re: Digging a hole in limestone

said by Rxdoxx

said by HRM

:

I'm pretty sure heat/water combo shatters limestone. If you start a fire in the pit, and quench it, you should find the next xx inches to be easier to get.

Actually, that is exactly what I was thinking. It was on the History channel and had to do with how Hanibal got over the Alps and it was Heat/Vinegar combo. It seemed to work in their tests btw, much better than water.

»www.google.com/search?q=hannibal+vinegar

permalink · 2009-07-04 15:01:45 · Print ·

bkjohnson Premium join:2002-05-22 Birmingham, AL	I've seen walk behind backhoes or excavators at some of the rental places around here that possibly could work for you. An example is in the following link. »ontario.domepac.com/vehicles/ad-···568.html
	permalink · 2009-07-04 12:55:07 ·

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Re: Digging a hole in limestone

said by bkjohnson

:

I've seen walk behind backhoes or excavators at some of the rental places around here that possibly could work for you. An example is in the following link. »ontario.domepac.com/vehicles/ad-···568.html

Interesting! Nothing like that locally, but we're in small town here. I may drive over to the city and see what the rental place there has.

permalink · 2009-07-05 11:54:40 · Print ·

LazMan

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I would be tempeted, if the rock's that solid - to drill some rebar into it, anchored with epoxy, then pour your mounting slab on that - unless the tower has a foundation section that needs to be burried.

I'm far more familar with working with granite, rather then limestone; and we routinely use the granite as a foundation (with rock bolts, or other anchors) for towers and poles; as well as pouring foundations directly on it...

Laz

permalink · 2009-07-04 14:58:05 ·

kherr Premium join:2000-09-04 Collinsville, IL clubs:	Hell it's the forth of July ..... get some dynamite and blame the neighborhood kids ...
	permalink · 2009-07-04 16:44:00 ·

zen1 @optonline.net	perhaps you would like to try this.. »www.crowdersupply.com/betonamit.htm
	permalink · 2009-07-04 22:46:50 ·

stev32k
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Re: Digging a hole in limestone

said by zen1 :

perhaps you would like to try this.. »www.crowdersupply.com/betonamit.htm

I have used this expansion powder before it works well if you do the prep work right. You've got to drill holes on no more than 12" centers, 6" centers are better, and they need to be about 6" deeper than the final hole depth.

The other problem is getting the chunks out of the hole some of them will require heavy equip or you will have to drill and break even more.

permalink · 2009-07-05 09:36:02 · Print ·

nunya
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I'd core the limestone and see how big of a shelf you are working with. FWIW, I've seen large buildings and towers supported on limestone ledge.

If its more than a few feet thick, I would call the tower manufacturer and verify windloading and supporting on a limestone shelf. You need to rent a coredrill on a stand. They can be wheeled in.
If you can core down 5-6 feet and still be in substantial rock, I'd fill the core hole with grout and rebar. That's assuming this is a small self supporter. If it's a monopole or guyed setup, you're on your own.

For larger towers, it takes professionals with professional equipment to get it done. Not much of a way around that.
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permalink · 2009-07-05 20:03:39 · Print ·

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Re: Digging a hole in limestone

Rumor is they used dynamite when building the houses here. We're roughly 1/4 mile away from a limestone quarry, so I'm guessing the limestone goes down a good 60+ feet at a minimum.

In order to build the tower here the city requires the foundation to be concrete, 4' down. So I'm stuck with that. I'll have to just keep chipping away it at. I'm making progress, but it's slow, and a lot more work than I'd like it to be.

permalink · 2009-07-06 00:21:46 ·

nunya SEE ROCK CITY 475 MILES Premium,MVM join:2000-12-23 O Fallon, MO clubs: ·AT&T CallVantage	I'd be willing to bet you could get a variance with engineered drawings. Hiring an engineer may be cheaper and easier than proceeding with an unnecessary footing dig. -- Looks like Reverend Wright got his wish - God Damn America.
	permalink · 2009-07-06 01:15:21 ·

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Well, the concrete is free, so the only cost to the footing is digging the hole. The limestone is somewhat shale-like, in that it breaks off fairly easily into little slabs. I would not trust a heavily loaded ham radio tower anchored directly into this as I would be worried that it would fracture too easily, and the hole is bordered on one side by back-fill from when the house was built (house bracketed tower). This rock is certainly softer than concrete.

I stopped at the local rental store this morning, the owner thinks a jack hammer is the way to go. That's what he used when he dug the foundation for his garage and his mini-hoe couldn't break through the limestone.

permalink · 2009-07-06 09:09:30 · Print ·

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I made pretty good progress tonight. I had a couple inches worth that was super hard, but finally broke off into large pieces. Under that it's getting softer. Which is good, and bad. Bad because it fragments into smaller pieces, good because it fragments a little easier.

Still going at it by hand, and I'm at least a third of the way now. My wife is pretty much ordering me to dig by hand, she says if I want to construct an ugly ham radio tower I'm going to have to work for it. She can be a real slave driver, LOL!

Thanks for all the tips, guys!

permalink · 2009-07-06 22:30:35 · Print ·

drjim Premium,MVM join:2000-06-13 Long Beach, CA clubs:	Re: Digging a hole in limestone I suppose "ugly" is in the eye of the beholder. Hang in there, you'll get it finished. -- One man's Magic is another man's Engineering.
	permalink · 2009-07-06 23:06:28 ·

UHF All static, all day, Forever Premium,MVM join:2002-05-24 clubs: ·Qwest.net ·Callcentric ·surpasshosting ·Dish Network ·Future Nine Corpor.. 1 edit	Re: Digging a hole in limestone said by drjim : I suppose "ugly" is in the eye of the beholder. Hang in there, you'll get it finished. To me it will be a very beautiful thing! I acquired a tribander and a rotor over the weekend, so I need to kick it up a notch with the digging!
	permalink · 2009-07-06 23:29:18 ·

hitachi369 Embrace Your Rights Premium join:2001-10-03 Grand Rapids, MI	Where do you live? Maybe there are some members in the area that could help?
	permalink · 2009-07-06 23:15:42 ·

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