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iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX

iansltx

Member

Speed/Price List?

Don't know whether anyone has thought about this, but it might be informative for the community to see what HSI speeds and prices Suddenlink has in the areas they serve.

For example, in Big Spring TX (79720)

1024/256 - $19.95 for three months, then $26.95
8192/512 - $29.95 for three months, then $51.95

This is for residential standalone service.

Anyone want to chime in? Might serve to create a map of who's getting decent options and who can't for the life of 'em get upload speeds above 512k...
nnaarrnn
join:2004-09-30
Charleston, WV

nnaarrnn

Member

In WV it's

12mbit/768k-$59.99/mo
6mbit/256k -$39.99/mo
3mbit/128k -$19.99/mo * DISCLAIMER* I THINK I saw this listed.

They really need to get with the century and provide a higher upload. I do know the business tiers around here are as follows:

1.5mbit/256k -$70/mo
3mbit/512k -$140/mo
6mbit/1mbit-$200/mo
12mbit/1.5mbit-$500/mo

Total ripoff of course, seeing as those should be the upload speeds on residential tiers.
Araiden
join:2008-04-12

Araiden

Member

You won't see those upload speeds. 1. Most people believe that the majority of their users don't care as much about upload speeds as download speeds. And with the way cable systems are designed the extra upload speed just isn't there right now.
iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX

iansltx

Member

Without getting into too much of an argument, stop with the tired old rhetoric. The "most people don't need upload speeds" is akin to saying "640k out to be enough for anyone" in this day in age. Low upload = no cloud computing. Which is a bad thing.

Besides, even on DOCSIS 1.1 TWC and Comcast have 2 Mbit upload packages, and I'm able to get 2 Mbit/s 24/7 on the TWC connection I tried and the Comcast connection I buy myself.

Also, DOCSIS 2.0 allows for decent upload speeds. Currently even DOCSIS 3 systems use a single DOCSIS 2 channel for upload, and they have 5-15 Mbps depending on the area.
nnaarrnn
join:2004-09-30
Charleston, WV

nnaarrnn to Araiden

Member

to Araiden
I regularly upload at or above the 768k i'm provisioned for. Same for the 512k at our shop. It even bursts to 700-800 at times.
Araiden
join:2008-04-12

1 edit

Araiden to iansltx

Member

to iansltx
I didn't say that was my opinion. I don't agree with it myself, i was simply stating a fact. That is how a lot of companies feel about the upstream speeds. Now that could change with things like cloud computing. I was mostly talking about suddenlink and the fact that almost all of their systems are docsis 1.1 running qpsk for upstream. They could probably provide more upstream, but you won't be seeing much unless they upgrade to docsis 2.0 or docsis 3.0. I know the technology is out there to advance this the question is whether or not suddenlink invest in it to provide faster speeds. By the way the reason one docsis 2.0 or one docsis 3.0 upstream channel has more bandwidth is because you can use a higher qam rate with them than you can docsis 1.1. Just for reference one 256 qam channel provides a bandwidth of 38 mbps. Can't remember the bandwidth for 64 qam, qpsk etc off the top of my head but it's significantly less.
iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX

iansltx

Member

Regardless of QAM level (actually higher QAMs require higher SNRs but offtopic) the DOCSIS 1.1 spec is 38 Mbps down and 10 Mbps up per node/channel. DOCSIS 2.0 is 38 Mbps down and 30 Mbps up. DOCSIS 3 is Nx38 Mbps down and Nx30 Mbps up. QAMs don't matter.

Suddenlink can offer higher upload speeds if they want. 1.5 Mbps on a business class tier for example. I'm on DOCSIS 1.1 with Comcast in my area; 2.7-3 Mbps uploads with PowerBoost (saturating the node bandwidth for a few seconds but just shows what's available).
But of course when your competition has 512k up, 768k up is ferocious competition.

As to "uploads don't matter", when your system (cable or DSL) is highly asymmetric and optimized for delivery of content rather than user-generated uploading, you sell unbalanced tiers. If you have a fiber optic (or in many cases wireless) network you have a more balanced system to work with, so you offer speeds closer to (or exactly) symmetric. See Verizon FiOS (15/5 Mbps that tends to test out at 25 Mbps symmetric these days) and various muni fiber deployments (to my knowledge all symmetric). A few counties over the local telephone co-op is a bit lower on uploads (competition isn't driving them higher) but they're still selling a 20 Mbps down 3 Mbps up connection. Which could, by the way, be done on DOCSIS 2.0...
GeorgetownTX
join:2006-11-28
Georgetown, TX

GeorgetownTX to iansltx

Member

to iansltx
Since 95% or more of the subscriber base only compares downstream bandwidth, and since DSL's downstream in most areas (like mine) doesn't offer what you can get with cable, Suddenlink has no incentive whatsoever to increase upstream bandwidth or improve latency. It would only cost them more money but not bring them more revenue unless their customers are jumping to DSL in masse, which they are not.

I would personally prefer lower latency and faster upstream bursts to speed up small URL requests and TCP acks. Larger uploads I don't really care about the upload speed. But watching the upstream behavior on Suddenlink, it seems to start slow and then get faster until it hits the max upstream cap a few seconds after an upload begins. That is opposite of what would be most useful to most users which would be starting fast with a burst and then quickly decaying to the "large upload" bandwidth cap.

Latency is the other big issue with Suddenlink because they route all their traffic through Tyler TX before hitting the real internet. Previously with Cox, our Georgetown traffic went straight to Dallas and hit the internet with two hops instead of now being routed through College Station and three nodes in Tyler before going to Dallas and the internet. This adds some geographic latency as well as the latency bottleneck in Tyler from all the traffic through a single location.

But I don't think anything is going to change except in markets where Suddenlink has some real competition in downstream bandwidth which is what most consumers base their price/speed comparison on.
iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX

iansltx

Member

True. By the way, what are speeds and prices in your area?

Also, here are some traceroutes; you're right about latency, but generally speaking routing is rather jacked up as well.

To Google:

Traceroute has started ...

traceroute: Warning: google.com has multiple addresses; using 74.125.127.100
traceroute to google.com (74.125.127.100), 64 hops max, 40 byte packets
1 192.168.1.1 (192.168.1.1) 1.775 ms 0.829 ms 0.887 ms
2 10.253.128.1 (10.253.128.1) 14.210 ms 8.692 ms 7.865 ms
3 cdm-66-76-46-73.susp.suddenlink.net (66.76.46.73) 9.665 ms 9.659 ms 12.251 ms
4 cdm-66-76-46-253.susp.suddenlink.net (66.76.46.253) 17.586 ms 16.076 ms 19.582 ms
5 cdm-66-76-31-69.lfkn.suddenlink.net (66.76.31.69) 33.880 ms 33.686 ms 34.511 ms
6 cdm-66-76-30-137.tylrtx.suddenlink.net (66.76.30.137) 32.859 ms 34.934 ms 33.527 ms
7 ashb-osr01.suddenlink.net (66.76.30.166) 74.736 ms 67.430 ms 70.319 ms
8 ashbosr03-10gex1-1.atw.sta.suddenlink.net (66.76.219.34) 68.226 ms 70.797 ms 68.579 ms
9 66-76-229-162.tyrd.suddenlink.net (66.76.229.162) 67.775 ms 69.061 ms 70.369 ms
10 209.85.241.50 (209.85.241.50) 69.274 ms 71.989 ms 70.017 ms
11 209.85.242.208 (209.85.242.208) 79.748 ms 79.784 ms 81.403 ms
12 209.85.249.19 (209.85.249.19) 99.264 ms 96.836 ms 98.394 ms
13 209.85.248.129 (209.85.248.129) 123.199 ms 131.758 ms 131.981 ms
14 216.239.46.204 (216.239.46.204) 131.622 ms 125.977 ms 127.525 ms
15 216.239.48.141 (216.239.48.141) 130.077 ms 216.239.48.143 (216.239.48.143) 131.101 ms 216.239.48.141 (216.239.48.141) 134.845 ms
16 216.239.46.18 (216.239.46.18) 135.101 ms 129.944 ms 216.239.46.6 (216.239.46.6) 147.048 ms

To SoftLayer (in Dallas):

Traceroute has started ...

traceroute to softlayer.com (66.228.118.53), 64 hops max, 40 byte packets
1 192.168.1.1 (192.168.1.1) 1.285 ms 0.781 ms 0.860 ms
2 10.253.128.1 (10.253.128.1) 8.198 ms 10.076 ms 9.622 ms
3 cdm-66-76-46-73.susp.suddenlink.net (66.76.46.73) 11.738 ms 12.322 ms 10.920 ms
4 cdm-66-76-46-253.susp.suddenlink.net (66.76.46.253) 14.666 ms 15.947 ms 16.316 ms
5 cdm-66-76-31-69.lfkn.suddenlink.net (66.76.31.69) 35.370 ms 30.420 ms 29.586 ms
6 lbkb-crs02.suddenlink.net (66.76.31.66) 36.360 ms 32.349 ms 33.169 ms
7 okcb-crs02.suddenlink.net (66.76.30.145) 32.789 ms 35.796 ms 35.693 ms
8 cdm-66-76-30-5.tylrtx.suddenlink.net (66.76.30.5) 34.631 ms 34.693 ms 33.641 ms
9 66-76-232-13.tyrd.suddenlink.net (66.76.232.13) 63.355 ms 64.362 ms 63.507 ms
10 xe-10-3-0.edge3.Chicago3.Level3.net (4.53.96.13) 61.094 ms 58.907 ms 59.837 ms
11 ae-31-51.ebr1.Chicago1.Level3.net (4.68.101.30) 71.194 ms ae-31-53.ebr1.Chicago1.Level3.net (4.68.101.94) 155.507 ms ae-31-51.ebr1.Chicago1.Level3.net (4.68.101.30) 118.035 ms
12 ae-6.ebr1.Chicago2.Level3.net (4.69.140.190) 170.119 ms 129.862 ms 172.871 ms
13 ae-3.ebr2.Denver1.Level3.net (4.69.132.61) 172.728 ms 135.482 ms 171.933 ms
14 ae-1-100.ebr1.Denver1.Level3.net (4.69.132.37) 173.726 ms 129.065 ms 173.207 ms
15 ae-2.ebr2.Dallas1.Level3.net (4.69.132.106) 172.074 ms 133.288 ms 172.768 ms
16 4.69.145.72 (4.69.145.72) 171.520 ms 134.320 ms 172.590 ms
17 te2-1.cer01.dal01.dallas-datacenter.com (4.71.198.18) 172.768 ms 171.835 ms 67.075 ms
18 po1.dar02.dal01.dallas-datacenter.com (66.228.118.203) 66.788 ms 72.637 ms 72.619 ms
19 po2.slr01.dal01.softlayer.com (66.228.118.142) 75.384 ms 68.527 ms 67.305 ms
20 www.softlayer.com (66.228.118.53) 71.239 ms 69.986 ms 70.556 ms

Worse than Comcast considering Dallas is a huge internet hub.
iansltx

iansltx to nnaarrnn

Member

to nnaarrnn
Just got off the phone with SUddenlink Business. In Big Spring the following tiers are available...meh...

1m/384k - $62
2m/384k - $90
3m/512k - $140
4m/768k - $180
6m/1m - $220
1.5m/1.5m - $245
12m/1.5m - $500

Of course, when you have a bit of a monopoly who are you going to use otherwise? In comparison, Comcast business cable is $90 for 16 Mbit down and 2 Mbit up.

Then again, if you can get somewhat decent bandwidth it shouldn't be terribly hard to compete on upload speed and price if you came into the area.
cooldude9919
join:2000-05-29

cooldude9919 to iansltx

Member

to iansltx
we got 6/1 for $199 back in 06 on a 3 year deal. /26 was an extra $50 for a total of $249. They wont do more than a /26 on coax, and their fiber pricing was pretty nuts (At least for us).
iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX

iansltx

Member

Any idea of what residential pricing is?
nnaarrnn
join:2004-09-30
Charleston, WV

nnaarrnn to cooldude9919

Member

to cooldude9919
yeah, around here their fiber pricing is $150/syncronus megabit, and you pay the install costs of running the fiber from the nearest fiber access node either up front, or monthly throughout your contract. I checked into it and the 1.5/1.5 would be 800/month for us for 3 years. We can get a t-1 for less than $300.
iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX

iansltx

Member

How much is regular cable biz broadband though?
Araiden
join:2008-04-12

1 edit

Araiden to iansltx

Member

to iansltx
Wrong.

Downstream transmission takes place over one or more 6-MHz channels in the range between 50 MHz and 750-850 MHz. DOCSIS 2.0 specifies several variations of Quadrature Amplitude Modulation (QAM). At the lowest level, 64-QAM yields six bits per symbol and a signaling rate of 36 Mbps per 6-MHz channel. Alternatively, 128-QAM yields seven bits per symbol and increases the signaling rate to 42 Mbps, although it is more sensitive to noise.The standards also provide for the use of 256-QAM, which increases the raw signaling rate to 48 Mbps. Upstream transmission, in early DOCSIS versions, is supported over 6-MHz channels in the range between 5 MHz and 42 MHz for United States systems, and 8-MHz channels in the range between 5 MHz and 65 MHz for European systems.The channels each support a signaling rate of 12 Mbps through use of the quadrature phase shift keying (QPSK) modulation technique. DOCSIS 1.1 specifies 16-QAM, which roughly doubles the data rate, and doubles the channel width. DOSCIS 2.0 further increases the upstream rate by again doubling the channel width, and using either time division multiple access (TDMA) in combination with 64-QAM or synchronous code division multiple access (S-CDMA) in combination with 128-QAM trellis-coded modulation (TCM).

256-QAM yields 256 possible signal combinations, with each symbol representing eight bits (2 8 = 256). The yield of this complex modulation scheme is that the transmission rate is eight times the signaling rate. Signaling rate is the rate at which data, including overhead, i.e., signaling and control information, can be sent across a circuit.That compares with the transmission rate, which is the theoretical rate at which user data can be transmitted across a circuit.
Araiden

Araiden to iansltx

Member

to iansltx
The reason you are getting only 10 megs upload on a node is because your using qpsk. It's a more robust transmission i.e. it can handle interference a lot better than 256 qam however it is less efficient, thus the increase in transmission rate.
iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX

iansltx to Araiden

Member

to Araiden
However the DOCSIS standard is 42 Mbps down, 10 Mbps up. 38/10 after overhead. 48Mbps means nothing when it's above the standard. Yes, higher QAMs mean higher symbol rates but if it's above standard spec it's not gonna run.
iansltx

iansltx to Araiden

Member

to Araiden
Aaaaand QPSK is because the system is DOCSIS 1.1. My signal levels are fine so if the system had DOCSIS 2.0 it'd be showing.

Also, around here Suddenlink is using 561MHz for the downstream DOCSIS channel being used here.
Araiden
join:2008-04-12

1 edit

Araiden

Member

Modulation: DOCSIS 1.0/1.1/2.0 specifies that 64-level or 256-level QAM (64-QAM or 256-QAM) be used for modulation of downstream data, and QPSK or 16-level QAM (16-QAM) be used for upstream modulation. DOCSIS 2.0 specifies 32-QAM, 64-QAM and 128-QAM also be available for upstream use.
MAC layer DOCSIS employs a mixture of deterministic access methods, specifically TDMA for DOCSIS 1.0/1.1 and both TDMA and S-CDMA for DOCSIS 2.0, with a limited use of contention for bandwidth requests. In contrast to the pure contention-based MAC CSMA/CD employed in older Ethernet systems (there is no contention in switched Ethernet), DOCSIS systems experience few collisions. For DOCSIS 1.1 and above the MAC layer also includes extensive Quality of Service (QoS) features that help to efficiently support applications, for example Voice over IP, that have specific traffic requirements, such as low latency.

All of these features combined enable a total upstream throughput of 30.72 Mbit/s per channel (although the upstream speed in DOCSIS 1.0 and 1.1 is limited to 10.24 Mbit/s). All three versions of the DOCSIS standard support a downstream throughput of up to 42.88 Mbit/s per channel with 256-QAM

Yes you are right docsis 1 specifies that qpsk be used for the upstream. But notice with docsis 2.0 and above, higher qam rates are used. And as mentioned all that combined allows for more upstream bandwidth. So that proves my point that qam rates DO have an affect on bandwidth which is the opposite of what your arguing.

»www.pace.com/media/ameri ··· fits.pdf

heres an article that explains it in depth.