Reviews:
 ·Verizon FiOS
| Re: Mapping said by Matt:Has anyone looked at the Connected Nation maps? They aren't as bad nor as dire as this guy says. Sure the OTHER maps are better, but the Connected Nation maps are very similar to the other maps, they just don't differentiate Cable or DSL. So, while I feel accuracy is very important, the sky is certainly not falling. Let's worry about getting broadband to those "white" areas on the Connected Nation map and then we can tackle what type it is. you miss the point entirely - the purpose of connected nation is to ENSURE accurate mapping data IS NOT AVAILABLE.
sure, they put out what looks like reasonable maps, but who's to know? they make sure the data is proprietary so it can't be verified because you can't see the raw data.
why are they doing this? because they don't want people to see how many "holes" there are in the U.S. broadband map. If the true state of broadband competition in the U.S. (little to no competition) were known, the FCC, BY LAW, would be obligated to take significant measures.
hide the facts and you can make up your own story. | |
|
 |
 MattAll noise, no signal.Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
kudos:12 | Re: Mapping said by nasadude:you miss the point entirely - the purpose of connected nation is to ENSURE accurate mapping data IS NOT AVAILABLE. sure, they put out what looks like reasonable maps, but who's to know? they make sure the data is proprietary so it can't be verified because you can't see the raw data. As I said in my other post, I find it ironic that they accurately match the maps the author used as an example. I don't think I'm missing the point here. Until I'm shown more than anecdotal, heavily opinionated evidence, I'll form my own opinion based on the facts as they have been presented to me. | |
|
 | Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
| Re: Mapping my understanding is that connected nation will not allow independent verification of the data used to make the maps; this assumes, of course, this is not just an anecdotal, heavily opinionated pronouncement.
if you can explain to me why this is so and what purpose it serves, I will concede connected nation must not be as "evil" as I think it is.
if you repeat the arguments already put forth (proprietary, competition sensitive, etc.), you're not going to sway me one bit. | |
|
| | MattAll noise, no signal.Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
kudos:12 | Re: Mapping said by nasadude:my understanding is that connected nation will not allow independent verification of the data used to make the maps; this assumes, of course, this is not just an anecdotal, heavily opinionated pronouncement. if you can explain to me why this is so and what purpose it serves, I will concede connected nation must not be as "evil" as I think it is. if you repeat the arguments already put forth (proprietary, competition sensitive, etc.), you're not going to sway me one bit. I don't think that their unwillingness to release their compilation methodologies makes them any more or less suspect. They openly state where their information comes from and anyone is free to obtain the same information. The fact that their maps match the other maps shouldn't completely change your opinion, but should at least swing you toward the "Hey, maybe these guys are doing something right" side of the fence. So far, everything BUT that is hearsay.
Each time one of these topics comes up, I see a ton of heavily opinionated evidence about how they are evil, but nothing about why except for a purely circumstantial tie to AT&T and the argument that they won't release the nuts and bolts of their data. I don't think that proves anything other than they invested a lot of work into their research and don't want to allow someone to copy their methodology. After all, it's not like there are a ton of other companies doing this. | |
|
| | | cacoPremium
join:2005-03-10
Whittier, AK | Re: Mapping said by Matt:said by nasadude:my understanding is that connected nation will not allow independent verification of the data used to make the maps; this assumes, of course, this is not just an anecdotal, heavily opinionated pronouncement. if you can explain to me why this is so and what purpose it serves, I will concede connected nation must not be as "evil" as I think it is. if you repeat the arguments already put forth (proprietary, competition sensitive, etc.), you're not going to sway me one bit. I don't think that their unwillingness to release their compilation methodologies makes them any more or less suspect. If they take public dollars they should make that information available.
--
»www.seabee.navy.mil | |
|
| | | | MattAll noise, no signal.Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
kudos:12 | Re: Mapping said by caco:If they take public dollars they should make that information available. I somewhat agree with this, but I think it's murky. They state they are a 501(c)(3) Scientific Non-Profit using the public/private model, so I don't really have a problem with them not disclosing their methodology since they are using publicly available data. Anyone is free to compile the data they used and make a comparison. | |
|
| | | | | Host:
Road Runner
PC gaming GAMES
PC gaming Tech
| Re: Mapping They state they are a 501(c)(3) Scientific Non-Profit using the public/private model, so I don't really have a problem with them not disclosing their methodology since they are using publicly available data. Anyone is free to compile the data they used and make a comparison. I don't believe that's true. Their relationship with carriers (look at the board of directors for a who's who of baby bell lobbyists) provides them with data that is not independently verifiable by third parties. I really think the primary concern here, aside from the funny lobbying smells emanating from the group, is that $350 million in taxpayer dollars should result in data wholly owned by the taxpayer. | |
|
| | | | | | MattAll noise, no signal.Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
kudos:12 | Re: Mapping said by Karl Bode:They state they are a 501(c)(3) Scientific Non-Profit using the public/private model, so I don't really have a problem with them not disclosing their methodology since they are using publicly available data. Anyone is free to compile the data they used and make a comparison. I don't believe that's true. Their relationship with carriers (look at the board of directors for a who's who of baby bell lobbyists) provides them with data that is not independently verifiable by third parties. I really think the primary concern here, aside from the funny lobbying smells emanating from the group, is that $350 million in taxpayer dollars should result in data wholly owned by the taxpayer. Has anyone proven they have access to data not available publicly? Or is that just an assumption because of who is on their board of directors?
We are in agreement that the data should be owned by the taxpayers, but I think our disagreement might come when you and I provide our definition of the "data." I think the results should be considered the data, I'm guessing you and others would like every character related to the project publicly available? I'm wondering if the Freedom of Information Act would apply here? | |
|
| | | | | | | Host:
Road Runner
PC gaming GAMES
PC gaming Tech
2 edits | Re: Mapping Has anyone proven they have access to data not available publicly? Their FAQ says as much, and I've confirmed with Kentucky officials and at least one ISP they get select data from carriers, and then make States sign NDAs to keep that data in house. It's not publicly verifiable as far as I can see, and I've been reading about this group for more than a year.I think the results should be considered the data, I'm guessing you and others would like every character related to the project publicly available? I've been watching lobbying guys like Verizon's Tom Tauke, AT&T's Jim Cicconi, Comcast's Joe Waz, the CTIA's Steve Largent, the USTA's Walter McCormick and the NCTA's Kyle McSlarrow (all on the board of directors) work for a decade. I honestly know how their brains work. They have no interest in honest and transparent broadband mapping, as it means additional regulation and lower revenues. Every fiber of these men's being is dedicated to making the sector seem as competitive and picture perfect as possible.
That includes lying, distortion, artificial consumer advocacy groups, and smear campaigns. The idea that Connected Nation is a very big con is a very big possibility. The fact that no member of the press was willing to raise these questions is certainly not Art Brodsky's fault....
Guys like Tauke would not be so vocally supportive of this organization if it in any way adhered to the kinds of standards that are necessary for accurate and publicly reviewable data. It's simply oil and water...
I'm finally getting the chance to talk with Connected Nation CEO Brian Mefford soon, so I'll have a chance to pick his brain. | |
|
| | | | | | | | MattAll noise, no signal.Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
kudos:12 | Re: Mapping Ok, so they form a partnership with the local ISPs, what is stopping anyone else from doing this and then mapping broadband? How do you reconcile the fact that in Art Brodsky's article, the Connected Nation map matched the independent map? If anything, the Connected Nation map was MORE pessimistic than the independent map provided.
I'll be looking forward to the interview with CEO Brian Mefford. I have no doubt you'll hold his feet to the fire. | |
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | |
1 edit | Re: Mapping Wow. Stop using publicknowledge as an example of independent support for Connection Nation. Public Knowledge has written a great deal on how screwed up and evil CN's methods and motives are. | |
|
| | | | | | | | |  morboComplete Your Transaction
join:2002-01-22
00000 | wow. seeing those 3 images side by side is more powerful than any of the arguments i have heard so far. | |
|
| | | They don't accurately match the maps used by 3rd parties. | |
|
| | said by nasadude:said by Matt:Has anyone looked at the Connected Nation maps? They aren't as bad nor as dire as this guy says. Sure the OTHER maps are better, but the Connected Nation maps are very similar to the other maps, they just don't differentiate Cable or DSL. So, while I feel accuracy is very important, the sky is certainly not falling. Let's worry about getting broadband to those "white" areas on the Connected Nation map and then we can tackle what type it is. you miss the point entirely - the purpose of connected nation is to ENSURE accurate mapping data IS NOT AVAILABLE. A respected authority that disagrees with the accusations against Connected Nation:
»www.publicknowledge.org/node/133···ment-974
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page | |
|
 pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And PrettyPremium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD | said by nasadude:the purpose of connected nation is to ENSURE accurate mapping data IS NOT AVAILABLE. That is silly. ISPs already make these data widely available to the public. I can ruin this thread if you like by posting the links again.
said by nasadude:sure, they put out what looks like reasonable maps, but who's to know? they make sure the data is proprietary so it can't be verified because you can't see the raw data. What is stopping you from finding a location that Connected Nation claims can get broadband and then verifying that address with the ISPs which are claimed to provide service?
--
Blagojevich / Madoff 2012! | |
|
| | | Re: Mapping said by pnh102:said by nasadude:the purpose of connected nation is to ENSURE accurate mapping data IS NOT AVAILABLE. That is silly. ISPs already make these data widely available to the public. I can ruin this thread if you like by posting the links again. I'd like to see the links. Always good to see BOTH sides of the story.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page | |
|
| | Lazlow
join:2006-08-07
Saint Louis, MO | Re: Mapping I would like to see these links too. | |
|
| | |
| | | Lazlow
join:2006-08-07
Saint Louis, MO | Re: Mapping pnh102
All those links you have posted are notorious for not being accurate. They often show service as being available to areas that it is not and they also often show service as not being available at addresses that currently have service. Which is one of the many reasons we need to have an accurate and OPEN way to find this information. If it is open it is easily verifiable by the people how actually live at those addresses. | |
|
| | | | Host:
Road Runner
PC gaming GAMES
PC gaming Tech
| Re: Mapping I don't believe he's one to change his position once proven inaccurate, and I've personally seen him proven inaccurate on this particular point (golly! AT&T's line cert applet means total broadband data transparency!) some fifty times over...
It's kind of like kung-fu fighting with a river. Kind of pointless. | |
|
| | | | | pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And PrettyPremium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD | Re: Mapping said by Karl Bode:I don't believe he's one to change his position once proven inaccurate, and I've personally seen him proven inaccurate on this particular point (golly! AT&T's line cert applet means total broadband data transparency!) some fifty times over... LOL. You haven't proven anything I've said to be inaccurate. It isn't my fault that a select group of users here happen to be the chosen few who have problems using these websites.
--
Blagojevich / Madoff 2012! | |
|
| | | | pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And PrettyPremium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD | said by Lazlow:All those links you have posted are notorious for not being accurate. Then why do millions of people rely on these links every day? I have no doubt that there may be some errors in what is listed here, but the fact that these pages even exist completely, totally, entirely and absolutely disproves the notion that ISPs are hiding anything.
--
Blagojevich / Madoff 2012! | |
|
| | Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
| here's a link to another datapoint:
»gigaom.com/2009/06/03/i-say-broa···ndoggle/
I talked to Jim Stegeman, president of broadband mapping firm CostQuest Associates and a member of a group of companies that are offering broadband mapping services to states through the LinkAmerica Alliance, to find out more about the mapping process. Stegeman has helped compile a broadband map for Wyoming and is working on one for Alabama.
Stegeman said it takes about 5-6 months to create an initial statewide map, but that the speed of a mapping project depends on how quickly carriers turn over relevant information, and in what format. Some have very clean data, he said, while others only reveal the locations of DSLAM equipment and let the mapping company extrapolate how far the copper could travel from it. At times, Stegeman said, his firm has had to get the information it needed from the phone book. | |
|
| | | pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And PrettyPremium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD | Re: Mapping said by nasadude:Stegeman said it takes about 5-6 months to create an initial statewide map ... Well, there are certainly a lot of people looking for work these days. Perhaps Mr. Stegeman can hire some of them to get a list of addresses in the great state of Alabama and use the websites above to compile a reasonably accurate map of broadband availability in that state.
If such maps are that valuable, then Mr. Stegeman will have no problems finding a buyer for his efforts.
--
Blagojevich / Madoff 2012! | |
|
|
1 edit | ISPs never make their data publicly available, to anyone or anywhere. Even when they do provide it to certain entities they force them to sign NDAs so that the public isn't able to view it. There's no transparency, no accountability. | |
|
| | pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And PrettyPremium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
2 edits | Re: Mapping Do the links I posted not work?
said by sonicmerlin: ISPs never make their data publicly available, to anyone or anywhere. Even when they do provide it to certain entities they force them to sign NDAs so that the public isn't able to view it. There's no transparency, no accountability. Again, how can you make such a claim when I have posted links to the ISPs themselves that clearly refute what you say?
Again, if availability data is some that is so top secret, why do ISPs even allow you to look up availability information?
Again, if ISPs didn't want you to know where they were doing buildouts, then why are some like Verizon actually listing some of their deployment locations for FIOS?
»www22.verizon.com/about/communit···ion.html
There is no conspiracy. There is no obfuscation. There is no secret cabal hiding broadband deployment information from the public. The information is right there for the people to see and observe for themselves.
--
Blagojevich / Madoff 2012! | |
|
| | | | | Re: Mapping The maps individual ISPs provide are well-known for being inaccurate. | |
|
| | | | pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And PrettyPremium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD | Re: Mapping said by sonicmerlin:The maps individual ISPs provide are well-known for being inaccurate. I see I have moved you to another talking point.
If these resources are so inaccurate, then why is it that most people, especially the non-techie majority in the USA, seem to have no problems finding out if broadband is available, and getting it if it is?
--
Blagojevich / Madoff 2012! | |
|
| | | | | wentlancYou Can't Fix Dumb..
join:2003-07-30
Maineville, OH | Re: Mapping Because those people who find out that service is not available when it is supposed to be just choose their best option. Seriously... did you ask "most" of the US if their information was up to date on their prospective ISP websites? Or are you just assuming your point? Just because people find connectivity does not mean that the mapping data is accurate.
I looked up connectivity for my last home. It said that I was available to receive 3M/768K DSL service. In fact, it was not completely built out yet, and I had to wait to get it. When I did get it, I got no greater than 1200K/380K. So I was actually NOT wired, and they could not deliver. When they came asking to upgrade me to 5M/768K, I refused because they could not even deliver the 3 I was paying for.
To me... coverage is one thing.. I think the map should also demonstrate capability as well. I would expect an interactive map that shows all coverage in an area, including advertised capability, and some form of real world speed statistics collected from users. Maybe google should add broadband coverage to their mapping applications....
cw | |
|
| | Their maps are not reasonable. CN's maps are atrocious. They're criminally negligent in the details they provide. | |
|
|
|
