said by R0CKY :

Hehehe.... not sure all the places that have been discussed in some time now but there definitely has been a lot of buzz....

said by otty :

What a SHOW!!

said by cbp :

From an unbiased point of view (with a flavoring bias towards telcos) the CRTC will allow application independent throttling on all the lines as Bell sees fit, as long as the throttle is localized and done only at peak times.
CRTC may also allow application dependent throttling but this will be left for each ISP to decide.

In a way they have to do this because of the other types of internets such as satellite, 3G, cable. Remember this meeting is not just for DSL, it is for all ISPs.

said by MaynardKrebs :

Enough of that shite for one day.

said by DJMASACRE :

hey JF , what was the expression on SHAW guys face when Fincklestein said that ¨we will give Bell the interrogation they deserve .. after all they started this whole thing ¨..

id like to know the expressions on peoples faces, lol

said by Guspaz :

I'm starting to think that JF might have been right about the CRTC's earlier questions.

They seem to be hitting Rogers pretty hard...

said by MaynardKrebs :

Yes, a long slow grilling at low temperature will make the meat just fall off their bones.

said by Davesnothere :

In postponing Bell until tomorrow, the CRTC, in addition to demonstrating Hofstadter's Law (from the same ethnic background as the Chairman, BTW), has potentially opened up a WHOLE DAY all the better to grill Bell, and a whole evening to better prepare just HOW, based on reviewing everything they heard today.

said by Cyborg994 :

Can't wait to see how hard they (CRTC) will hit Bell now, they (Bell) must be really nervous right now... Can someone in the room see them ?

said by R0CKY :

Sorry gang,

Just got back from supper and a bunch of calls.... CBC had asked for a few interviews so I had to pick a time today to do them... Based on where things were at I figured I'd be pretty safe to do them while Shaw was speaking, so I did 4 of them between 3PM and 4PM (had to be between 3PM and 5PM)...

Shitty that I should come back to find out Bell had been rescheduled to tomorrow.

Was supposed to hook up with the family for the rest of the week, but I guess it will wait another day! :/

In either case, there's no way I'm missing tomorrow!

Rocky

said by QCTLG :

I bet The Hell lawyers are all over Rocky...why else would he not be there...
Should we worry?

said by XNemesis :

Like can we expect to have adsl2 speeds opened up to us the public within the year or are we looking at year(s)...ugh!!

said by XNemesis :

So...are we still years away from action being taken (if any) after this hearing is concluded?

Like can we expect to have adsl2 speeds opened up to us the public within the year or are we looking at year(s)...ugh!!

said by only them :

Yes and the police/RCMP are the only people that should have access to such equipment. ISP's have no business having this type of capability what so ever.

said by cbp :

Remember the new law that allows cops to wiretap your net lines. DPI is the perfect tool for this.

said by cbp :

From an unbiased point of view (with a flavoring bias towards telcos) the CRTC will allow application independent throttling on all the lines as Bell sees fit,

said by LittleStone :

I have a stupid question.

If the commission found that CRTC should not regulate how retail ISPs handle their own customers, but wholesalers should not impose application specific "network" management, does it mean Bell has to stop throttling TS customers immediately, or does CAIP need to request CRTC to issue another order?

said by CanerisErik :

The telcos are evil. Everyone else is supposedly good. The End.

said by cbp :

Can anyone summarize the whole day? I don't really want to listen to several hours of crap.

said by N Terloper :

That was a fiendishly clever, cheap and sleazy trick. He's trying to taint p2p with illegitimacy/illegality in the minds of the CRTC by conflating it with Napster.

said by lester :

They only throttle upload though just like Robbers

said by MaynardKrebs :

That one glib comment may give Bell all the ammunition they need to 'prove' bias and have any ruling against them vacated.

said by Candoo3 :

How could Bell claim bias when the commission has sided with them thus far? I think the crtc's had quite the education this past week, and now just has some "interesting" questions for them.

said by Thane_Bitter :

Napster killed the network? Huh?

said by cpsycho :

Ohhh I know, I know.

Bells face: Like a deer beaver caught in the headligthts!

said by MaynardKrebs :

That one glib comment may give Bell all the ammunition they need to 'prove' bias and have any ruling against them vacated.

said by DJMASACRE :

hey JF , what was the expression on SHAW guys face when Fincklestein said that ¨we will give Bell the interrogation they deserve .. after all they started this whole thing ¨..

id like to know the expressions on peoples faces, lol

said by MaynardKrebs :

It'll show up in your phone bill eventually.

said by jfmezei :

Moderators will probably censor this, but FUCK.

Everyone showed up to see Bell, but they pushed bell to the next day

said by st0rm82 :

what ISP was last today for the hearing? i could only listen to a bit of the last part

said by cpsycho :

I wonder what it cost them to have their lawyers show up and they did nothing >:)

said by drewis :

HAHA

give Bell the interrogation that it deserves.

said by QCTLG :

I bet The Hell lawyers are all over Rocky...why else would he not be there...
Should we worry?

said by QCTLG :

I bet The Hell lawyers are all over Rocky...whay else would he not be there...
Should we worry?

said by Thane_Bitter :

Too bad, it gives them more time to prepare.

said by Thane_Bitter :

I wonder if he noticed if he was suddenly forced to breath through a straw? LOL!!

All the ISPs do the same thing, thus their claims of the customer will go elsewhere is moot.

LOL Throttling increases SPEED LOL.

said by Cyborg994 :

Yeah, that's true, no one uses p2p to actually distribute files themselves...

said by InvalidError :

They said 80 kbits/s... that makes Bell's 240kbits/s P2P throttling seem not that bad anymore.

said by mlerner :

Oh yes I wouldn't notice 20 vs 80 KB/s :p

said by mlerner :

Oh yes I wouldn't notice 20 vs 80 KB/s :p

said by drewis :

Maybe I'm missing something here:

A company sells 1 mbit upstream to a user.
AND advertised as such.

This company (every cableco today that presented) cannot provide this 1mbit upstream to every said user, 24/7, even if he/she isnt using this bandwidth on P2P.

Right?

anyone else see something wrong with this
?

said by drewis :

Maybe I'm missing something here:

A company sells 1 mbit upstream to a user.
AND advertised as such.

This company (every cableco today that presented) cannot provide this 1mbit upstream to every said user, 24/7, even if he/she isnt using this bandwidth on P2P.

Right?

anyone else see something wrong with this
?

said by drewis :

Maybe I'm missing something here:

A company sells 1 mbit upstream to a user.
AND advertised as such.

This company (every cableco today that presented) cannot provide this 1mbit upstream to every said user, 24/7, even if he/she isnt using this bandwidth on P2P.

Right?

anyone else see something wrong with this
?

said by Thane_Bitter :

Oh god they played the EXOFLOOD card! LOL

said by DJMASACRE :

lies lies lies... have we seen any of this before ? ...

said by cpsycho :

DSL staff must be going crazy. The must be thinking they should throttle the amount of text you can post to 20 every 30 minutes by this point :D

said by Bloodknight :

they didn't say it yet but if Internet exist it is because of them ;)

said by jam_bongo :

sure they're bigger than Hotmail, Gmail, and Yahoo :p

said by twizlar :

LOL, the largest email center in the world?

said by jam_bongo :

sure they're bigger than Hotmail, Gmail, and Yahoo :P

said by mlerner :

Wow this so obvious now, they're dodging the question for alternative solutions! unbelievable. It's like their way or the highway.

said by twizlar :

LOL, the largest email center in the world? What is this guy babbling on about.

said by drewis :

oh believe it. if Bell gets on we WILL hit 1000.

said by mlerner :

This is much worse, the gun is in the room and the trigger won't move.

said by WeRAnonymous :

Anyone else feel like this is reminiscent of the OJ trial? *LOL*

said by Cyborg994 :

It's not a freakin competitive market...

said by mlerner :

Wow the CRTC is catching their BS big time. Now they admit there are alternatives!

said by jfmezei :

I suspect Bell won't start before 16:00

said by DJMASACRE :

they are just getting really defensive for no reason .

CRTC is just asking simple questions lol

said by jfmezei :

I suspect Bell won't start before 16:00

said by DJMASACRE :

lol they dont get it ...

they all dont agree with what comcast did ..

but if they DID .. what would it involve..

they dont even want to touch that one :P

said by mazhurg :

I like where the CRTC is currently thinking.

said by DJMASACRE :

lol ¨and you want this in our submission ¨( we cant find the bullshit to tell you right now )

said by DJMASACRE :

lol ¨and you want this in our submission ¨( we cant find the bullshit to tell you right now )

said by atmx093 :

Would you leave friggin Comcast outta this... this ain't the USA!

said by Candoo3 :

How can all the major players refer to competition, when they have all lowered their standards of service, as far as caps and pricing goes, and they keep the indies under their thumbs. Competition my a$$.

said by Candoo3 :

How can all the major players refer to competition, when they have all lowered their standards of service, as far as caps and pricing goes, and they keep the indies under their thumbs. Competition my a$$.

said by Candoo3 :

How can all the major players refer to competition, when they have all lowered their standards of service, as far as caps and pricing goes, and they keep the indies under their thumbs. Competition my a$$.

said by jam_bongo :

Does anyone know how many TPIA customers there are on Shaw?

said by jfmezei :

Rocky came back. but he is leaving again.

BTW, Geist gets privileged access to THE power outlet available to the audience.

said by TSI Marc :

they can completely segregate their voip network but they cannot for wholesale?

said by TSI Marc :

they can completely segregate their voip network but they cannot for wholesale?

said by Lewism8 :

Bandwidth is cheap.

said by milnoc :

I'm trying to get into a bit of trouble here. Maybe that'll work? :)

said by Bloodknight :

Then the mp3 will become illegal ? :P

said by milnoc :

I found "Highway to Hell" in Songsmith format. I could probably sneak that into the mp3 file. :)

said by N Terloper :

Did you mean "highway to bhell?"

said by DJMASACRE :

no no, their DPI service is highly effective in detecting p2p through encrypted traffic. ............

said by DJMASACRE :

no no, their DPI service is highly effective in detecting p2p through encrypted traffic. ............

said by jfmezei :

rocky is not in the room.

said by TSI Marc :

seperate networks except on the same access network!!????

said by jfmezei :

rocky is not in the room.

said by twizlar :

This guy is a moron, the very nature of DPI looks in the packet content.

said by milnoc :

That was five minutes ago. :D

said by mazhurg :

...

said by atmx093 :

Can someone hack their music server and put "highway to hell" during the next intermission? :D

said by lester :

Don't eat the brown donuts

said by jam_bongo :

i've definitely noticed them being much more confrontational this time around

said by Candoo3 :

Shaw has interests/affiliates in the U.S ?

said by milnoc :

Arg! I shouldn't have eaten those two double-chocolate Tim Hortons doughnuts! I'm experiencing a really "bad trip" of a sugar high! :)

said by milnoc :

What's the point of having a 100 Mbps connection if it's capped to a ridiculously low amount?

said by jam_bongo :

it seems like a lawyer trick no?

said by mlerner :

HAHAHA Trust and loyalty. Geez these cable companies are really high on themselves.

said by jfmezei :

shaw just started. hopefully this will be quick.

BTW, TV crews before lunch were from TVA, A Québocor company. Videotron is a Québécor compay.

said by milnoc :

Chances are they'll finish today. Vidéotron was on for about an hour and ten minutes. The hearing can easily go to five PM if necessary, which is enough time to hear the last two intervenors.

said by InvalidError :

A lot of us were skeptical but the CRTC was obviously listening despite signs of the contrary during much of last week.

said by atmx093 :

You think they were expecting the CRTC to come out this strong?

said by Stewy :

so Videotron's wholesalers simply relabel the service. It's all on paper nothing else.

Is that correct ?

said by atmx093 :

You think they were expecting the CRTC to come out this strong?

said by jam_bongo :

why is Konrad asking a CABLE company something that has to do with DSL architecture?

said by R0CKY :

Oish.... never thought of that.... yeah.... good point!

said by Stewy :

"they go out and get clients and we hook them up to our router"

that's their wholesale ??????

said by atmx093 :

The french feed is fubar... Someone's not talking to the mic. All I hear is the woman.

said by jfmezei :

am worried there won't be time for Bell today

said by Stewy :

but he's not asking the right question.

When you sell to wholesale does that overusage flow onto your network ?

Can you monitor your retail usage and the wholesale usage ?

said by Lewism8 :

He calls my 3 Mbit from Bell/Teksavvy competition? Versus their 30, 50 Mbit?

said by Stewy :

Yea they're hiding something and just flying BS to the CRTC

said by DJMASACRE :

lol ....... this is hilariously stupid ..........

said by Stewy :

LOL what competitive market

said by jam_bongo :

gee so Tariffs don't pay to maintain the network?

said by Bloodknight :

FAR FAR below ....
yeah right ;P

said by jam_bongo :

I think I am starting to like Katz, he can be good sometimes!

said by jfmezei :

videotron guy says he heard nothing to lead him to believe that any ISP i canada looks at packet contents.

said by diskace :

Exactly. We are getting charged 8$/GB.

And also, their commercial side is unlimited and they sell to residential.

said by Bloodknight :

humm 4000 view :P "only" 600 post :\

said by InvalidError :

At $8/GB, I think they are already doing an outstanding job.

... and now they openly admit that they charge to wholesale the same prices as their retail customers... so TPIA offers absolutely no benefits to TPIA ISPs.

said by Lewism8 :

She just said resellers :(

said by DJMASACRE :

were not just waking up in the morning and asking ourselves ¨how can we screw our clients \ customers

said by jfmezei :

lets go !

said by jam_bongo :

do you have any stats on the number of times the torrent has been snatched?

said by renton :

4000 posts in this thread!

said by milnoc :

Some statistics on my unofficial CRTC torrents for the last week.

July 7 - size: 94.60 MB; uploaded: 1116.16 MB; share ratio: 11.881.
July 8 - size: 97.82 MB; uploaded: 790.28 MB; share ratio: 8.070.
July 9 - size: 103.89 MB; uploaded: 772.46 MB; share ratio: 7.434.
July 10 - size: 73.23 MB; uploaded: 267.08 MB; share ratio: 3.646.

Total uploaded: 2945.98 MB or 2.88 GB.

Rocky, if this is killing your network, please let me know, and I'll change providers. :D

said by renton :

4000 posts in this thread!

said by WeRAnonymous :

:mad: Kraftwerk was formed in 1970 TYVM! New...pfft...

said by mlerner :

I'd rather bring this new computer generated music they call pop then that damned CRTC music.

said by mlerner :

I'd rather bring this new computer generated music they call pop then that damned CRTC music.

said by milnoc :

If you were on a deserted island and you could only bring one CD with you, would it be the CRTC intermission music? :D

said by atmx093 :

High prices + low bandwidth + insane overage fees = just another form of traffic management.

said by atmx093 :

High prices + low bandwidth + insane overage fees = just another form of traffic management.

The problems are the same whether it's Bell/Rogers/Cogeco/etc. implementing DPI to throttle traffic or Videotron charging a fortune for everything.

In the end, they are filling up their coffers, not implementing network upgrades that would bring Canada into the 21st century and blaming us for all those ills.

said by jam_bongo :

I know, it's so blatant and I don't understand why nobody previously pointed that out

said by milnoc :

$7.95 per GIGABYTE?!? Yikes! TSI only charges a quarter! That's a hell of a profit margin!

said by k6richar :

hey milnoc - what is your sig picture from, looks just like the barcode thing from the passport applications

said by Stewy :

But when we sell our internet services in Bulk to wholesalers we need to manage how their end users use it because wholesalers don't know how.

said by mlerner :

Shaw Communications is next to present.

said by k6richar :

so is 2:00 bell or more videotron?

said by Guspaz :

Tape is still extremely commonly used for backups. It's the cheapest way to store bulk data, and is a lot more durable than hard disks.

It's very easy to back up to tape and then have a company paid to store them off-site.

said by Shada :

ouch to the seek times

said by MaynardKrebs :

Their neural net has been in learning mode that past week, but the power is due to be switched off at the end of today. Their SDRAM won't retain a charge long enough for them to reach and write their decision.

said by Shada :

so far I have been pretty impressed with the crtc's line of questioning.

said by Lewism8 :

0.6 Mbit - 2 GB
7.5 Mbit - 30 GB
10 Mbit - 100 GB
20 Mbit - 30 GB
30 Mbit - 70 GB
50 Mbit - 100 GB

And all this for ridiculous prices. The 30 GB cap for the 7.5 Mbit connection have not changed in 5 years.

said by Cyborg994 :

Bell really gave the wholeseller alot of ammo by introducing this now, either marketing does not talk to regulatory, or they really are confident they can pass anthing to the CRTC...

said by mlerner :

Wait, wait wait.. What's this about packages? That sounds to me like the charging for website packages model.

said by mlerner :

LOL "economic tools" It is just me or does it sound like they're talking about DPI??

said by Bloodknight :

they are "working" like water meter ...

they count what's going throught your modem ... (as the meter is in the modem)

the "bad" part (I don't know if they changed they were able to know what you transfered to whom at which time ...)
(in case of a police report on you or something)

said by Guspaz :

But no, they want to charge 100x that or more.

said by mlerner :

And I'm sure that additional information will be in confidence as well knowing full well MTS Allstream had no problem providing that information in public!

said by Thane_Bitter :

Exactly, while they are on the topic the CRTC should ask how much money caller display/ID REALLY costs.

said by doytch :

Will there be a lunch break between Videotron and Bell?

said by MaynardKrebs :

SSL

said by jfmezei :

Re: Videotron's 98% satisfaction rate:

That is beause they lost a whole bunch many years ago and those who stuck around are the ones that are happy.

said by jfmezei :

BTW, the CRTC Wi-Fi blocks outbound port 25 . Boo !

said by cpsycho :

I hope with this the CRTC does not say that bell can UBB Whole sellers. :(

said by Cyborg994 :

In confidence again...

said by Cyborg994 :

I wonder if they will mention how many uses left when they imposed overcharge usage on their extreme Internet plan... if those were not complaining...

said by Lewism8 :

What! 98% satisfaction rate. They only called grand-ma's for this number. I know a lot of people pissed of at their overcharge.

In fact, I left them for Teksavvy ;)

said by jfmezei :

Videotron is good in that they are discrediting Rogers and Cogeco in stating that they can manage their network without DPI.

said by jfmezei :

Videotron is good in that they are discrediting Rogers and Cogeco in stating that they can manage their network without DPI.

said by TSI Gabe :

The CRTC network uses bell as it's upstream provider from the looks of it.

said by Lewism8 :

Caps have an impact on traffic. Sure, with your 2 GB or 30 GB plan!

said by jfmezei :

BTW, the CRTC Wi-Fi blocks outbound port 25 . Boo !

said by artich0ke :

Quebec's only official language...

Chairman asked videotron how they deal with the upload congestion that rogers experiences, and they basically said they don't have problems with uploaders, that economic solutions are sufficient.

said by DJMASACRE :

why are the even speaking french if they cant speak it well enough for this discussion.

do they think this will confuse anybody ? .

said by Cyborg994 :

Term used by Videotron to adress wholeseler : reseller.

That says alot...

said by Guspaz :

I'm on Rogers' Fido brand, though.

said by Cyborg994 :

They just said that competition will make the best safeguard, I agree, that's why we need a decent GAS offering !

said by Guspaz :

Again, I point out their service where they notify you every $100 you spend, so there is clearly no cap, otherwise there'd be nothing to notify you about!

said by R0CKY :

Videotron: not doing technical management (rather than economical) currently not used but want to reserve the right to do so.

said by Cyborg994 :

They must pay overusage charge, MASSIVE overuse charges...

said by jfmezei :

Anyone can tune in to CPAC ? I wonder if they may be covering it today.

said by Guspaz :

Again, I point out their service where they notify you every $100 you spend, so there is clearly no cap, otherwise there'd be nothing to notify you about!

said by mlerner :

wow am I hearing this correctly? Videotron is slamming Rogers and Bell??

VT: The internet is an evolving and unpredictable network. Resist the temptation to impose regulation.

said by awowogei :

lol, you aren't lucky, they are all speaking french :P

said by awowogei :

lol, you aren't lucky, they are all speaking french :P

said by mlerner :

Actually in the last few months Rogers implemented a $100 max data overage cap at least for data plans, not sure about pay per use.

said by Guspaz :

Uh, no, wireless companies have *no* overage caps.

Fido (Rogers) does send you a text message every $100 you spend, but they definitely don't cap! Haven't you heard all these stories about people getting data bills in the thousands or tens of thousands of dollars for data?

said by DabberDan :

Yeah, no throttle, but they get you on the very low caps!

said by jam_bongo :

the elevator music... I get it now! It's for presentations like these :huh:

said by InvalidError :

Breaks are good, I need breakfast.

said by Guspaz :

Hmm, Videotron up next? They don't throttle and have never shown any indication that they plan to start. If they don't pull a Telus and actually come out against throttling and say "We don't need it, won't do it", then that could be very powerful.

said by Guspaz :

I'm not sure you're allowed to, but streaming 200-300 kbit/s of the proceeding would work within my cellular dataplan (of course, I'm not there). And the max upstream you can push over Rogers' network is about 330-340 kbit/s.

said by DJMASACRE :

geeeeeeeeez.. BREAK

said by mlerner :

I think the CRTC is catching on, Rogers entire presentation is spin and BS. They've contradicted themselves several times now!

said by 51019512 :

Why didn't someone setup a livecast account and stream this via video. Doh!

said by InvalidError :

A carrier's job is to uphold the illusion of a dedicated pipe.

The number of phone calls Bell can route through an area is finite, Bell's PSTN cannot handle everyone calling someone at the same time but Bell has sized their PSTN network so that no dialtone/fast-busy (PSTN's form of congestion) is an extremely rare occurrence under normal circumstances.

said by Stewy :

OMG Finck called it application discrimination

said by milnoc :

Except that you sold the service as if each customer has their own dedicated pipe. Or at least that's what you insinuated in your original sales information.

said by jfmezei :

TV guys entered the room with camera.

said by Stewy :

"this is not a network neutrality thing" says the company who does webpage injections. This is good

said by mlerner :

Hmm ok so if they're upgrading *before* the congestion, how can it be a problem now??

said by Shada :

Yep those Sandvine stocks are going fast now. lets get a live stock ticker going hehe to watch maybe even some rogers and bell stocks

said by jfmezei :

Guys, remember last week you guys were complaining about the questioning of the CRTC ? Looks like they have imporved quite a bit.

said by mazhurg :

I do hope Bell gets the same treatment later on.

said by DJMASACRE :

well Bravo ! They are really great now and will be able to make history in Canada.

good for them !

said by jfmezei :

Guys, remember last week you guys were complaining about the questioning of the CRTC ? Looks like they have imporved quite a bit.

said by jfmezei :

Guys, remember last week you guys were complaining about the questioning of the CRTC ? Looks like they have imporved quite a bit.

said by Shada :

he jsut said they don't traffic manage them?

said by Guspaz :

Not quite.

The reset packet causes the entire connection to disconnect; the computers think that the other one requested that they terminate the connection. That's a lot worse than dropping packets, that's forging communications, and much more damaging than a re-send.

said by BurnHavoc :

*long pause*

said by TSI Marc :

That's their strategy. keep everybody confused long enough.

said by TSI Marc :

somebody really does need to cut them off. why are they allowed to ramble on like this!???

said by 51019512 :

I'm getting dizzy.

said by mlerner :

Spin, spin, spin

said by renton :

Where are you people listening to this?

said by Stewy :

someone should clap after Rogers does the talking : )

said by Angelo_ :

lets talk about windows 7 that just leaked a few hrs ago.... whats teh bandwidth usage on that with p2p!

said by jfmezei :

Laptops in the room:

Spot a familiar name ?

cy-law1
ecm70
m2553
m2901
pp02694
pp02696
rocky-laptop
tamir-pc
w2238
w2579
w2894
w2987
w2992

said by mlerner :

I'm interested in who are all the wXXXX laptops. :D

said by jfmezei :

Laptops in the room:

Spot a familiar name ?

cy-law1
ecm70
m2553
m2901
pp02694
pp02696
rocky-laptop
tamir-pc
w2238
w2579
w2894
w2987
w2992

said by Thane_Bitter :

Oh yes lets move everyone to 3G - how much does data cost their? LOL

Rogers: Have not disclosed throttled speeds. Competitively sensitive information. Would reveal if CRTC demanded.

said by cpsycho :

Bell did not pay for the ftth in NB. Government did.