openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:2 | reply to r81984
Re: What a crappy company! How is Sandvine limiting the Internet? And why are the such a bad company? They actually appear to be turning around and listening to their customers, which are sort of listening to their customers. |
|
 r81984Fair and BalancedPremium
join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX | They are in the business of limiting internet. If they are listening to end users then they would not be in business.
--
For those of you playing a drinking game.... MY FRIENDS! |
|
|
|
openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:2 | They are not limiting the Internet. A tool is only that...a tool. It's how the tool is used that maybe you take issue with. When end users start paying Sandvine for service, then they get a voice, until then, direct your "internet limiting" at the ISPs. FWIW, Comcast appears to be implementing Sandvine's technology with minimal to no noticeable impact to the end users so maybe they are listening  |
|
r81984Fair and BalancedPremium
join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX Reviews:
 ·AT&T U-Verse
 ·AT&T DSL Service
 ·row44
| They why are they buying it? The point of sandvine technology is to limit the internet which will impact users. If they are not impacting users then the equipment is not working. An ISP and sandvine do not have a right to say what traffic is more important than others that should be left up the end user.
--
For those of you playing a drinking game.... MY FRIENDS! |
|
openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:2 | said by r81984:If they are not impacting users then the equipment is not working. Noticeable impact said by r81984: An ISP and sandvine do not have a right to say what traffic is more important than others that should be left up the end user. Sandvine isn't determining traffic priorities. Besides, with Comcast's implementation of Fairshare, priorities are left up to the end user. |
|
| No they're not. They're throttling users when a node is "congested" instead of simply splitting the node and providing more bandwidth. Any throttling tool will allow an ISP to skip one cycle of upgrading, but after that cycle they are forced to permanently use that tool even as they upgrade. It's a stopgap measure, and doesn't address the real issue of congestion. Only splitting the node will fully address the problem. |
|
openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:2 | Yes the are. From my understanding, Comcast's current implementation of Fairshare doesn't prioritize specific protocols over others. Therefore, the end user has control over protocol prioritization (at least through Comcast's network).said by sonicmerlin:Any throttling tool will allow an ISP to skip one cycle of upgrading, How did you determine this? Throttling schemas are used to manage peak congestion. Until the congestion is more than intermittently bursty, laying out resources to split nodes doesn't make sense. Having said that, the network engineers should monitor their networks and plan upgrades accordingly.said by sonicmerlin:but after that cycle they are forced to permanently use that tool even as they upgrade. Forced? More like ISPs choose to maintain tools that enable them manage their networks and minimize impacts as traffic eventually bursts to new bandwidth limits. |
|
 espaethDigital PlumberPremium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
kudos:2
·Clear Wireless
| reply to sonicmerlin
said by sonicmerlin:Any throttling tool will allow an ISP to skip one cycle of upgrading, but after that cycle they are forced to permanently use that tool even as they upgrade. It's a stopgap measure, and doesn't address the real issue of congestion. Only splitting the node will fully address the problem. So called "Fair Access Policies" such as those used by satellite internet providers are systems that allow for the elongation of upgrade cycles. Those systems have a limit at which a hard throttle kicks in that effectively limits the maximum number of bytes any particular user can put on the network.
Fairshare, by contrast, is a completely different system in that it's a prioritization scheme and not a throttle. Your priority on the network is inversely proportional to your amount of bandwidth demand; those who create the least amount of demand get the highest priority.
We're talking about scenarios where the circuit is filled to the point where there is congestion, and congestion usually affects every single connection on the wire. Say you're streaming a HD video which is running along but fills the shared pathway to capacity. When I pick up my phone to make a VoIP call, the extra traffic I add to the line creates a congested condition -- but the impact occurs to both of us. In that state some of my packets get dropped, some of your packets get dropped -- my VoIP call has unusable audio, your video maybe falls behind on buffering.
So if you are streaming video for an hour, and I want to make a 6 minute phone call, your traffic use over the hour was impacted 10% of the time, but my phone call was 100% impacted. FairShare is just a system to even out those odds. If my connection had higher priority than yours, 0% of my 6 minute VoIP call would be impacted, and you'd still have impact to 10% of the duration of your video stream. |
|
| reply to openbox9
said by openbox9:How is Sandvine limiting the Internet? And why are the such a bad company? They actually appear to be turning around and listening to their customers, which are sort of listening to their customers. you have no idea what is happening do you . you better read up in the teksavvy forum maybe  |
|
openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:2 | This thread started with a claim that Sandvine is a "crappy" company. So far, that claim hasn't even been close to proven. Perhaps you'd like to enlighten me with exactly what makes Sandvine a bad company. Or maybe you're referring to implementation of the technology itself as being the point of contention and not the company itself. If so, that's a different topic. |
|
| said by openbox9:This thread started with a claim that Sandvine is a "crappy" company. So far, that claim hasn't even been close to proven. Perhaps you'd like to enlighten me with exactly what makes Sandvine a bad company. Or maybe you're referring to implementation of the technology itself as being the point of contention and not the company itself. If so, that's a different topic. they all work together on this. its not a coincidence but sure. its the implementation of the technology, not the company itself. |
|
openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:2 | Of course they work together. It's no different than ISPs working with any of the other hardware/software vendors employed to help improve network quality and efficiency. Don't blame the company or the technology, blame the ISP the isn't employing the technology to your satisfaction. |
|
 funchordsHelloPremium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:5
3 edits | reply to openbox9
said by openbox9:This thread started with a claim that Sandvine is a "crappy" company. So far, that claim hasn't even been close to proven. Perhaps you'd like to enlighten me with exactly what makes Sandvine a bad company. Or maybe you're referring to implementation of the technology itself as being the point of contention and not the company itself. If so, that's a different topic. It's choice of product is what makes it a bad company.
September 21, 2007 = stock price $7.01 - an all time high
October 18, 2007 = AP reports on Comcast (who uses Sandvine)
Stock begins a six month slide to current-day levels, where it still lingers. (chart link - Sandvine is Blue, S&P 500 is red)
And its customers over the past year -- mainly repression regimes in the middle east. Look how Nextel-Seimens has been punished for blocking in Iran! Sandvine has been making all the wrong moves. They're a smart company, but they're using their smarts to fight freedom and openness and bandwidth growth in a technology context. That's not a good bet as things are racing toward more freedom, more openness, and more bandwidth as a force of nature.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL
Evil does seek to maintain power by suppressing the truth, or by misleading the innocent. --Spock and McCoy stardate 5029.5 |
|
openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:2 | There's a market for their services or else they wouldn't be around any longer and we wouldn't be having this discussion. There's no doubt that Sandvine has received a lot publicity, a lot of which is due to their customers' poor choices, but that doesn't make Sandvine or their product bad. That's the only point I'm making. Blame the users of the tool, not the tool. |
|
funchordsHelloPremium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:5 | For a crappy tool that nobody should ever want, they make a great one.
How's that! |
|
openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:2 | You're right, get rid of congestion and other network management tools. Turn residential Internet connections into the Wild West and then we'll see how end users start complaining.
Complaining about Sandvine is like complaining about Cisco because some ISPs use their gear to block inbound port 80 or outbound port 25  |
|
funchordsHelloPremium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:5 | said by openbox9:Complaining about Sandvine is like complaining about Cisco because some ISPs use their gear to block inbound port 80 or outbound port 25 I do see your point, I really do.
But Cisco hasn't proven itself as the blocking company that Sandvine has, and in so much as they keep it that way, they'll probably be popular. However Cisco has invested "deeply" in stuff other than fast and efficient packet routing and forwarding, and I suggest that they be careful to remember what really butters their bread.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL
Evil does seek to maintain power by suppressing the truth, or by misleading the innocent. --Spock and McCoy stardate 5029.5 |
|
 AVDRespice, Adspice, ProspicePremium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ | reply to funchords
said by funchords: That's not a good bet as things are racing toward more freedom, more openness, and more bandwidth as a force of nature. Be vigilant my friend. Entropy and momentum are working against our freedoms. Freedom is earned by vigilance, courage and blood.
--
standard disclaimers apply. |
|
