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K Patterson
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join:2006-03-12
Columbus, OH
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1 edit

Bandwidth/Congestion Mgmnt - Back to basics and the future

I'd like to come back to some of the basic here.

Comcast (and other ISP's) are stuck with the limitations of the NTSC system for television. The channel width was set in 1936, and the break between downstream and upstream was set in 1948. Now that TV is digital (almost) it is sad that we must send analog signals downstream and upstream through analog devices.

Enter the demands for more Internet speed and data transfer volume. Comcast adopts a method of disciplining the worst offenders, and finds themselves in a legal battle with the Florida Attorney General. They agreed on the awful compromise we have now - awful not because a few folks think that it is too restrictive but awful because it is a lousy solution.

Comcast is free to change it. How can anyone doubt that they will? The issue is that increasing the data transfer costs money, lots of it. And as Comcast correctly states, the vast majority of its customers don't need it, nor are they likely to in the future. Comcast, from a competitive standpoint, cannot increase the limits and pass on the very real costs of doing so to the majority of their customers. A consumption-based model is coming. The meter has not been released for two reasons. The first is that it would create a nightmare for Comcast on boards like this, with people perceiving (and perhaps suing) because the limits were not applied consistently across the board. The second is that they are changing their model. That may sound like a simple thing to do but it isn't. They first have to determine the incremental cost of adding bandwidth, not an easy thing to do. Then they have to make their model work in the real world of competition. Finally, perhaps the hardest part, they have to figure out how it relates to the issues of open, unfettered access to all the sources of data, many of which have now and will increasingly in the future be competitive with Comcast's TV offerings.

So stick around. Change is coming.

permalink · 2009-08-07 13:58:37 · Print ·

WernerSchutz

join:2009-08-04
Sugar Land, TX

4 edits

Re: Bandwidth/Congestion Mgmnt - Back to basics and the future

I find the terms "adopts a method of disciplining the worst offenders" to be very questionable.

1. There was no definition of "offense" just a vague subjective interpretation that the paying customer was not even explained what it was.

2. CC was not in a position to "discipline" anyone, much less its paying customers that were breaking no published limits. If it was anyone's position to "discipline", it was Florida's Attny. General, which he did.

Moreover, " they have to figure out how it relates to the issues of open, unfettered access to all the sources of data, many of which have now and will increasingly in the future be competitive with Comcast's TV offerings." . They do not "have" to figure out anything. What the customers access is NOT their business. Would you mind if the phone company would need to "figure out" if you can access long distance services through a competitor's service or calling cards ? Oh, that monopoly was broken a while back. Maybe THAT is the model we should see coming.

Would it not be funny if the electric company would also happen to have a division that makes pricey washing machines and they would have to "figure out" if you are allowed to use electric power to use your own purchased washing machine from Home Depot ?

Also, looking at predictions, Bill Gates also believed that 640K of RAM was plenty for a long time and everytime someone buys a large HDD we hear that he/she will never fill that up.

When predictions come from a party directly interested in those same predictions coming true and generating a financial advantage for them, those predictions are questionable. Let's have some neutral third party have access to the actual usage data from ISP's and see what analysis they come up with, would be more believable.

Also, if they would invest heavily in infrastructure as Verizon did, all this changing the business model and "educating users" corporate speak mumbo jumbo would not be necessary.

permalink · 2009-08-07 14:05:29 · Print ·

K Patterson
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join:2006-03-12
Columbus, OH
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2 edits

Re: Bandwidth/Congestion Mgmnt - Back to basics and the future

said by WernerSchutz:

I find the terms "adopts a method of disciplining the worst offenders" to be very questionable.

1. There was no definition of "offense" just a vague subjective interpretation that the paying customer was not even explained what it was.

2. CC was not in a position to "discipline" anyone, much less its paying customers that were breaking no published limits. If it was anyone's position to "discipline", it was Florida's Attny. General, which he did.

'Discipline has two meanings - to punish and to attempt to bring into line. That is exactly what Comcast has done and continues to do.

said by WernerSchutz

Moreover, " they have to figure out how it relates to the issues of open, unfettered access to all the sources of data, many of which have now and will increasingly in the future be competitive with Comcast's TV offerings." . They do not "have" to figure out anything. What the customers access is NOT their business. Would you mind if the phone company would need to "figure out" if you can access long distance services through a competitor's service or calling cards ? Oh, that monopoly was broken a while back. Maybe THAT is the model we should see coming.

Would it not be funny if the electric company would also happen to have a division that makes pricey washing machines and they would have to "figure out" if you are allowed to use electric power to use your own purchased washing machine from Home Depot ?

Your position is not universally accepted, at least not by the FCC and not by Congress. It should be, but it isn't. So Comcast does indeed need to figure out how to deal with these issues.

said by WernerSchutz:

Also, looking at predictions, Bill Gates also believed that 640K of RAM was plenty for a long time and everytime someone buys a large HDD we hear that he/she will never fill that up.

When predictions come from a party directly interested in those same predictions coming true and generating a financial advantage for them, those predictions are questionable. Let's have some neutral third party have access to the actual usage data from ISP's and see what analysis they come up with, would be more believable.

Whose predictions are you referring to?

said by WernerSchutz:

Also, if they would invest heavily in infrastructure as Verizon did, all this changing the business model and "educating users" corporate speak mumbo jumbo would not be necessary.

Who will pay for this "heavy investment"?

permalink · 2009-08-08 12:27:41 · Print ·

WernerSchutz

join:2009-08-04
Sugar Land, TX

4 edits

Re: Bandwidth/Congestion Mgmnt - Back to basics and the future

"Your position is not universally accepted, at least not by the FCC and not by Congress. It should be, but it isn't. So Comcast does indeed need to figure out how to deal with these issues."

If nobody complains, Congress would not act.

"Whose predictions are you referring to?"

The cable companies "predicting" doom unless they are let loose to do whatever they want with heavy users that paid for their access. Where is the data supporting these restrictions ? It is all on a "trust us, it is so" model, from the same group that used the "trust us" approach in front of the FCC when they said they were not sending the RST packets to p2p users. Except they did.

permalink · 2009-08-08 14:59:08 · Print ·

IPPlanMan Holy Cable Modem Batman join:2000-09-20 Washington, DC kudos:1 1 edit	How do we know the CC tracking/quota system is accurate? In addition to the above points made by Werner, what bothers me about these caps, etc. is that there's no regulatory oversight whatsoever as to whether the tracking/quota system is really accurate. It really is a "Trust us, why would we lie?" model.
	permalink · 2009-08-08 19:30:40 · ·

funchords
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said by K Patterson:

Comcast adopts a method of disciplining the worst offenders

What was Comcast really thinking, anyway?

Was the invisicap (now the kindacap) a way to contain the bandwidth costs of heavy users? Or a cheap substitute for keeping someone from soaking the bandwidth pool dry?

Whatever it was, it doesn't seem to do either very well. So what is it to become? A way to keep Cable TV users from cutting the cord? No, it's still too big for that.

I honestly don't know why it's there. I think it causes more damage than it prevents.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL
Evil does seek to maintain power by suppressing the truth, or by misleading the innocent. --Spock and McCoy stardate 5029.5

permalink · 2009-08-07 16:05:13 · Print ·

JohnInSJ
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Re: Bandwidth/Congestion Mgmnt - Back to basics and the future

said by funchords:

said by K Patterson:

Comcast adopts a method of disciplining the worst offenders

What was Comcast really thinking, anyway?

Exactly what its used for... to cut off people using 3/4 of a TB/mo or more, so it seems. Expect it to rise over time (the cap that is) but they'll alway need some number where they say "OK, that's enough for you."

Whatever it is.

On my wimpy 12/2 line I can pull 16mbit down and 280kbit up 24/7... that would be about 4.7TB/mo total possible data. Its probably unreasonable to expect to be able to use anywhere near that for a fixed price.
--
My place : »www.schettino.us

permalink · 2009-08-07 17:33:04 · Print ·

IPPlanMan
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Washington, DC
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4 edits

Re: Bandwidth/Congestion Mgmnt - Back to basics and the future

said by JohnInSJ:

Exactly what its used for... to cut off people using 3/4 of a TB/mo or more, so it seems. Expect it to rise over time (the cap that is) but they'll alway need some number where they say "OK, that's enough for you."

Whatever it is.

On my wimpy 12/2 line I can pull 16mbit down and 280kbit up 24/7... that would be about 4.7TB/mo total possible data. Its probably unreasonable to expect to be able to use anywhere near that for a fixed price.

And will the price for the service remain the same?
250GB of the internet today is less than it was a year ago.
250GB divided by 4.7TB is somewhere around 5%.

Is that anywhere near? Not exactly....

People don't realize how much they're paying for how little they're getting. But then again, it's money in Comcast's pocket to do things like this. And as we learned earlier from JLivingood, the 250GB cap has nothing to do with addressing congestion.

5% of usable capacity? Seriously?

And the ratio is even worse for the Docsis 3.0 Tiers.

It's Comcastic!
--
"We're going to start at one end of (Fallujah), and we're not going to stop until we get to the other. If there's anybody left when that happens, we're going to turn around and we're going to go back and finish it."
Lt. Col. Pete Newell: 1st Inf. US Army

permalink · 2009-08-08 19:44:03 · Print ·

JohnInSJ
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1 edit

said by K Patterson:

Finally, perhaps the hardest part, they have to figure out how it relates to the issues of open, unfettered access to all the sources of data, many of which have now and will increasingly in the future be competitive with Comcast's TV offerings.

Yeah, almost got it right.

The problem with metered service is that, but their own admission, the vast bulk of their subs are OVERPAYING (assuming comcast makes a buck if everyone actually used 250GB) since by their own data, most users are actually using a fraction of that amount.

So, the day metered billing rolls out, comcast loses free money from 95% of their users, and the small number of heavy users would likely either pay the trivial surcharge (pennies per MB) or leave.

Business Model Fail.

Metered billing is a threat, but its an empty threat. Sorta like holding a gun to your own head....
--
My place : »www.schettino.us

permalink · 2009-08-07 17:25:49 · Print ·

sortofageek Not Trouble Premium,Mod join:2001-08-19 There & Then kudos:14 Host: Comcast HSI Comcast Cable TV Team Helix Distributed Comput.. Linksys	Re: Metered billing again Just a reminder to keep this from a repeat of past discussions. Links to previous metered billing discussions in this thread: »Metered billing system, discussed many times »If metered, What cost would you pay? -- Join Team Helix * I am praying for these friends .
	permalink · 2009-08-07 19:40:11 · Print · ·

JohnInSJ Premium join:2003-09-22 San Jose, CA Reviews: ·PHONE POWER ·Comcast	Re: Metered billing again said by sortofageek: Just a reminder to keep this from a repeat of past discussions. Yeah I was away for a bit... sorry if I rehashed. I was just replying to a post. -- My place : »www.schettino.us
	permalink · 2009-08-07 21:16:33 · ·

damox
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Metered billing doesn't necessarily mean that Comcast would lose money. They could set up metered billing to begin after the 250 gigabyte allowance, for instance. I think that would be a better plan than getting service cut off for a year because I went over my limit! as far as I know, we haven't gone over, at least according to my statics, but we've come close a few times. I think we've used around 230 to 240 gigabytes several times, but I'm worried that at sometime we may go over, and lose service. I don't know how many people have been warned, I haven't yet, and I don't know if anyone has been lost service for going over the limit, since the limit was instituted, but I'd like an alternative to getting cut off.
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permalink · 2009-08-23 21:04:48 · Print ·

IPPlanMan
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join:2000-09-20
Washington, DC
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Re: Metered billing again

Another reason why we need the official meter. (Hello September!)

Your stats mean nothing compared to what readings Comcast has on its end.

The alternative? Fios maybe?

The thing is, even at 240GB a month, you're not a bandwidth hog, even if Comcast wants to make you out to be one. Having an official meter makes sure that you get what you're paying for.
--
"We're going to start at one end of (Fallujah), and we're not going to stop until we get to the other. If there's anybody left when that happens, we're going to turn around and we're going to go back and finish it."
Lt. Col. Pete Newell: 1st Inf. US Army

permalink · 2009-08-31 14:04:32 · Print ·

WernerSchutz join:2009-08-04 Sugar Land, TX 1 edit	Re: Metered billing again said by IPPlanMan: Another reason why we need the official meter. (Hello September!) It's Coming Real Soon now (tm). Maybe jlivingood could give us an update or why this long delay exists.
	permalink · 2009-08-31 14:55:23 · ·

IPPlanMan Holy Cable Modem Batman join:2000-09-20 Washington, DC kudos:1 1 edit	Oct 1, 2009 - 1 Yr. Anniversary of 250G Cap - No Meter Yet Coming up to the 1 year anniversary of the 250GB cap (October 1st) and still meterless.... Yup, that's right. Capped without a meter... For a year now.
	permalink · 2009-09-24 17:53:51 · ·

EJ8 join:2003-02-24 Los Angeles, CA 1 edit	Re: Oct 1, 2009 - 1 Yr. Anniversary of 250G Cap - No Meter Yet QUOTE: Coming up to the 1 year anniversary of the 250GB cap (October 1st) and still meterless.... Yup, that's right. Capped without a meter... For a year now. What does this mean? You know you aren't being "metered"? How can you tell?
	permalink · 2009-09-25 14:42:34 · ·

sortofageek
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Re: Metered billing again

Check the first post in this topic to find links to the multiples of discussion related to the cap, including the promised bandwidth meter.

From that post:

Will Comcast provide a bandwidth meter? jlivingood says "yes." Here ---> »Re: Bandwidth Limits - Meter
December 2, 2008 update: »Comcast To Offer Bandwidth Use Tracker In January
»Exclusive Screens Of Comcast's New Bandwidth Meter
January 2, 2009 update:
»Comcast Mum On New Bandwidth Tracker
July 24, 2009:
»Comcast Usage Meter Still A No Show

Subtopics about "The Bandwidth Meter":
»Bandwidth Monitor for Computers-Suggestions?
»Cap starts today...Wheres da meter???
»Will we be offered a bandwith monitor?
»I need a bandwidth meter for my mac. Please Help.
»Bandwidth Monitors Again
»Is there an update on the Comcast bandwidth meter?
»Bandwidth Meter???
»Where is the Comcast Bandwidth meter?
»The Bandwidth Meter, is it vaporware?
»Doubtful Comcast will ever release the bandwidth meter
»No meter from Comcast, can I exceed the cap?
»"I don't know what's taking Comcast so long with the meter ..."
»Service is metered, but no meter offered
»The Elusive Meter
»Wish someone would sue Comcast - no meter yet
»Metered billing system, discussed many times
»If metered, What cost would you pay?
»Did they decide not to offer a bandwidth meter?
»bandwidth usage monitor?
»Until there is an official meter, there should not be a cap.

When does the meter start/stop each month?
»Comcast/Sandvine Traffic Managment System Evolves
»When does the bandwidth meter start for the billing period?
»Comcast Montly 250GB up/down limit - when does it reset?
»Meter Stop/Start Time Subtopic #3
»Comcast Monthly CAP Time Rotation
»Does Comcast track by month? By rolling 30-day? What?

Meter Accuracy
»How do we know the CC tracking/quota system is accurate?
»How do we know the CC meter is accurate?

Metered Billing?
»Metered billing system, discussed many times
»If metered, What cost would you pay?
»Metered billing again
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permalink · 2009-09-25 14:48:00 · Print ·

EJ8 join:2003-02-24 Los Angeles, CA	Re: Metered billing again sorry i overlooked that. thanks.
	permalink · 2009-09-25 15:10:20 · ·

joetaxpayer I'M Here Till Thursday join:2001-09-07 Sudbury, MA Reviews: ·Comcast	said by sortofageek: Check the first post in this topic to find links to the multiples of discussion related to the cap, including the promised bandwidth meter. Wow, soag, a fine job organizing this. Our thanks to you. Nothing else to add, I'll just stay subscribed to this thread for any sign of an update.
	permalink · 2009-09-28 11:37:35 · ·

WernerSchutz join:2009-08-04 Sugar Land, TX	said by IPPlanMan: Coming up to the 1 year anniversary of the 250GB cap (October 1st) and still meterless.... Yup, that's right. Capped without a meter... For a year now. "Coming real soon now", just a few minor details being worked out. Right ? Werner
	permalink · 2009-10-01 11:45:49 · ·

K Patterson Premium,MVM join:2006-03-12 Columbus, OH kudos:1	Re: Oct 1, 2009 - 1 Yr. Anniversary of 250G Cap - No Meter Yet I'm told by a person in authority that the lead programmer on the meter is Lucille Van Pelt.
	permalink · 2009-10-01 14:50:16 · ·

joetaxpayer I'M Here Till Thursday join:2001-09-07 Sudbury, MA Reviews: ·Comcast	Re: Oct 1, 2009 - 1 Yr. Anniversary of 250G Cap - No Meter Yet said by K Patterson: I'm told by a person in authority that the lead programmer on the meter is Lucille Van Pelt. Very nice. Earlier this week, I gave someone great advice and said "That will be 5 cents please." Blank stare. Now at least I know my friend KiloPatterson would have gotten it.....
	permalink · 2009-10-01 15:04:15 · ·

WernerSchutz join:2009-08-04 Sugar Land, TX	said by K Patterson: I'm told by a person in authority that the lead programmer on the meter is Lucille Van Pelt. I did not get it, had to look it up. »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy_van_Pelt
	permalink · 2009-10-01 15:05:59 · ·

JohnInSJ Premium join:2003-09-22 San Jose, CA Reviews: ·PHONE POWER ·Comcast	Re: Oct 1, 2009 - 1 Yr. Anniversary of 250G Cap - No Meter Yet It's an age test. You must be old enough to have grown up while Peanuts was the hottest comic ever, but not so old that you forgot it. Sweet spot is I would guess late 40s? -- My place : »www.schettino.us
	permalink · 2009-10-01 17:32:16 · ·

joetaxpayer
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Sudbury, MA

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Re: Oct 1, 2009 - 1 Yr. Anniversary of 250G Cap - No Meter Yet

said by JohnInSJ:

It's an age test. You must be old enough to have grown up while Peanuts was the hottest comic ever, but not so old that you forgot it. Sweet spot is I would guess late 40s?

Aren't the holiday specials still on, every Valentine's Day, Easter, ThanksGiving, Christmas, and a couple others. You got my age right, but do these repeats have no viewers?

permalink · 2009-10-01 19:12:11 · Print ·

JohnInSJ Premium join:2003-09-22 San Jose, CA Reviews: ·PHONE POWER ·Comcast	Re: Oct 1, 2009 - 1 Yr. Anniversary of 250G Cap - No Meter Yet said by joetaxpayer: Aren't the holiday specials still on, every Valentine's Day, Easter, ThanksGiving, Christmas, and a couple others. You got my age right, but do these repeats have no viewers? Only us old people watch -- My place : »www.schettino.us
	permalink · 2009-10-01 23:28:34 · Print · ·

funchords Hello Premium,MVM join:2001-03-11 Yarmouth Port, MA kudos:6	Re: Oct 1, 2009 - 1 Yr. Anniversary of 250G Cap - No Meter Yet My kids still watch these religiously. Corn is sweet.
	permalink · 2009-10-02 09:34:22 · ·

IPPlanMan Holy Cable Modem Batman join:2000-09-20 Washington, DC kudos:1	said by WernerSchutz: "Coming real soon now", just a few minor details being worked out. Right ? Werner 1 year and counting...
	permalink · 2009-10-01 22:40:18 · ·

IPPlanMan Holy Cable Modem Batman join:2000-09-20 Washington, DC kudos:1 1 edit	said by K Patterson: ....open, unfettered access to all the sources of data, many of which have now and will increasingly in the future be competitive with Comcast's TV offerings. Sounds familiar...
	permalink · 2009-08-08 22:06:02 · ·

K Patterson Premium,MVM join:2006-03-12 Columbus, OH kudos:1 1 edit	Re: Bandwidth Management in Relation to CC TV Offerings It is familiar. One model is that of the mob-controlled garbage industry on the East coast. If an ISP tries to control by restrictive agreements, constraints, manipulations, etc they will just end up with more regulation that makes them uncompetitive. Cases in point - Iphone, Bing, Microsoft, Apple.
	permalink · 2009-08-09 05:06:09 · ·

IPPlanMan
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Washington, DC
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2 edits

Re: Bandwidth Management in Relation to CC TV Offerings

So, unless I am misunderstanding you, it seems that you agree with me that Comcast is protecting the turf of its TV offerings. So I ask, how is it able to do so?

It can:
1) Impose a cap on usage that keeps people from actually watching competitive services in any appreciable volume, essentially keeping Internet for Internet, and not for TV. However, this imposed 250 GB cap has nothing to do with managing real-time congestion as we learned from JLivingood earlier.

2) Impose network congestion management so that the "Internet TV watchers" don't saturate the system and negatively affect the "user experience for others".

In this case Comcast has chosen to do both.

Sometimes it doesn't matter if it's uncompetitive. Try getting a different garbage company.
--
"We're going to start at one end of (Fallujah), and we're not going to stop until we get to the other. If there's anybody left when that happens, we're going to turn around and we're going to go back and finish it."
Lt. Col. Pete Newell: 1st Inf. US Army

permalink · 2009-08-09 12:10:59 · Print ·

K Patterson
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Columbus, OH
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Re: Bandwidth Management in Relation to CC TV Offerings

Please don't put words in my mouth. I did not say anything like that.

What I said was that until there is definitive legislation and regulation insuring a free and open Internet, the ISP's have to figure out on their own what is free and open.

Please don't quote the decision about p2p and reset packets. That was 3 to 2 with two vigorous dissents, and one of the commissioners weighed in last week on the same subject, and it wasn't on our side.

permalink · 2009-08-09 12:51:17 ·

IPPlanMan Holy Cable Modem Batman join:2000-09-20 Washington, DC kudos:1	Re: Bandwidth Management in Relation to CC TV Offerings What about this is putting words in your mouth? said by K Patterson: ....open, unfettered access to all the sources of data, many of which have now and will increasingly in the future be competitive with Comcast's TV offerings.
	permalink · 2009-08-09 13:08:21 · ·

K Patterson Premium,MVM join:2006-03-12 Columbus, OH kudos:1	Re: Bandwidth Management in Relation to CC TV Offerings Out of context, and I'm out of this "discussion".
	permalink · 2009-08-09 13:35:47 · ·

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