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 ·magicjack.com
| reply to Romney2012
Re: Healthcare Reform--- the REAL agenda said by Romney2012:if the abortion of HR 3200 comes out unchanged from Congress, I can always pay cash for premium care if it messes up the health care system too badly. Unfortunately there are a LOT of seniors that won't be able to say the same. There are millions of average Americans who pay a premium for healthcare today (due to our artificial quality standards compared to the rest of the world). And, millions who can't even do that (and are prohibited by law from purchasing the level of healthcare available to others around the world).
If the scenario you described is undesirable, why should we live with today's?
Mark |
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 mrkevinKnowledge comes, but wisdom lingers.Premium
join:2007-08-07
Aurora, ME | said by amigo_boy: millions who can't even do that (and are prohibited by law from purchasing the level of healthcare available to others around the world). Mark That's a lie.
Funny, when people from other countries that have extreme health care issue, they always come here to AMERICA to be treated.
If these other countries have such a wonderful level of health care, let's start sending those people there.
It's a mute point because people all over the country are up in arms about this heath care plan (including Democrats)
»www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYlZiWK2Iy8
I will refrain from calling Barney Frank names...but he did not answer the question, he just spread his vileness on one of his constituents. These are the people who are RUINING this country.
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An army of sheep led by a lion, will always defeat an army of lions led by a sheep. |
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Reviews:
·magicjack.com
| said by mrkevin:Funny, when people from other countries that have extreme health care issue, they always come here to AMERICA to be treated. If these other countries have such a wonderful level of health care, let's start sending those people there. I agree that you can get "the best healthcare" here if you have the money to travel here and pay for it.
But, how can the bus boy at the local restaurant travel to another country for $5 office visits?
I've always said that the quality of our care depends on who you are. If you're mid- to upper-middle class (with good health insurance) you'll get the best healthcare in the world right here.
But, if you're not among that group, a different country's healthcare (with $5 office visits and less than state-of-the-art treatments would look better).
The fact that you're among the group who can afford $5 office visits has a lot to do with why you can't travel to those countries for those visits, right?
Mark |
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mrkevinKnowledge comes, but wisdom lingers.Premium
join:2007-08-07
Aurora, ME
1 edit | said by amigo_boy:[I agree that you can get "the best healthcare" here if you have the money to travel here and pay for it. But, how can the bus boy at the local restaurant travel to another country for $5 office visits? The fact that you're among the group who can afford $5 office visits has a lot to do with why you can't travel to those countries for those visits, right? Mark Well here is just two stories I found real quick
Burned Iraqi Boy Comes To America
»www.liveleak.com/view?i=84c_1239378401&c=1
Edit-"As soon as I heard about it, I was just overjoyed to get involved, help him out," says Dr. Edward Lanigan, a plastic surgeon from MSU.
Lanigan says he and Sparrow Hospital are doing the surgeries for free.
A Polish 13-month-old comes to America for surgery
»www.kidsdoc.org/newsroom/inthene···sID=2106
These aren't millionaires, these are children for God sake...
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An army of sheep led by a lion, will always defeat an army of lions led by a sheep. |
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Reviews:
·magicjack.com
| said by mrkevin:These aren't millionaires, these are children for God sake... Did they travel here on their own dime? And purchase our healthcare on their own dime? Is this available to all Iraqis and Poles?
Mark |
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mrkevinKnowledge comes, but wisdom lingers.Premium
join:2007-08-07
Aurora, ME | said by amigo_boy:Did they travel here on their own dime? And purchase our healthcare on their own dime? No, us selfish, uncaring, bastard American's do this all the time for FREE!!!! read the F'ing stories
said by amigo_boy: Is this available to all Iraqis and Poles? Maybe if Obamacare goes through it will be. Then will that make you happy? To pay for World Healthcare.
Why can't that be the Battle cry? Every person in the world should have access to free medical care.
And let the Chinese pay for it.
Is this what you want next? Mobile execution vehicles?
»www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006···an_x.htm
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An army of sheep led by a lion, will always defeat an army of lions led by a sheep. |
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mrkevinKnowledge comes, but wisdom lingers.Premium
join:2007-08-07
Aurora, ME
1 edit | reply to amigo_boy
Censorship right here:
Your post may be delayed so that a moderator can verify that it is suitable.
Sorry Mark, I guess you will have to wait for a moderator to approve my response
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An army of sheep led by a lion, will always defeat an army of lions led by a sheep. |
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·magicjack.com
| said by mrkevin:I guess you will have to wait for a moderator to approve my response I don't understand the point you're making. In a previous post you said Americans should travel for $5 office visits available in other countries. That's ridiculous considering that the people who would benefit the most from such affordable healthcare are the least able to afford international travel (or to take time off from their hourly jobs).
Then you replied with some cases of foreign kids coming here to receive the best healthcare in the world (as charity).
I'm not understanding the point your making.
Mark |
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mrkevinKnowledge comes, but wisdom lingers.Premium
join:2007-08-07
Aurora, ME | said by amigo_boy: In a previous post you said Americans should travel for $5 office visits available in other countries. Then you replied with some cases of foreign kids coming here to receive the best healthcare in the world (as charity). I'm not understanding the point your making. Mark NO, I think you are mixing me up with someone else.
I never said
Americans should travel for $5 office visits available in other countries.
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An army of sheep led by a lion, will always defeat an army of lions led by a sheep. |
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Reviews:
·magicjack.com
| said by mrkevin:NO, I think you are mixing me up with someone else. I never said Americans should travel for $5 office visits available in other countries.
You said: "If these other countries have such a wonderful level of health care, let's start sending those people there."
For some people (who can't afford our "best healthcare system in the world"), affordable basic care in those other countries might be desirable if the alternative is no care here (or, ER care after a problem becomes critical, and the individual is prepared to go bankrupt).
Clearly, going to other countries for affordable care isn't an option for those who would benefit the most.
However, coming to the US for "the best healthcare in the world" is an option for those who can afford it.
But, I'm not sure how some charity cases affect either point. Just because some doctors perform charity care on foreign children doesn't prove the already proven point that we have the best healthcare in the world (if you can afford it).
Nor does it disprove that the lower-quality basic care available in their own countries would be beneficial to many Americans who can't afford our monopolistic medical system of higher quality.
Mark |
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 KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
 ·AT&T DSL Service
| reply to amigo_boy
said by amigo_boy:said by mrkevin:These aren't millionaires, these are children for God sake... Did they travel here on their own dime? And purchase our healthcare on their own dime? Is this available to all Iraqis and Poles? That's charity work, and it' not even available to all Americans.
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"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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mrkevinKnowledge comes, but wisdom lingers.Premium
join:2007-08-07
Aurora, ME | reply to amigo_boy
said by amigo_boy:You said: "If these other countries have such a wonderful level of health care, let's start sending those people there." I wasn't talking about Americans...
said by amigo_boy:For some people (who can't afford our "best healthcare system in the world"), affordable basic care in those other countries might be desirable if the alternative is no care here (or, ER care after a problem becomes critical, and the individual is prepared to go bankrupt). Come on...you do not see people here getting turned away from heath care.
Maybe we should institute some Tort reform to control costs instead of letting Uncle Sam bull his way through our heath care system.
said by amigo_boy:However, coming to the US for "the best healthcare in the world" is an option for those who can afford it. It isn't going to be an option to anyone once the government takes over.
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An army of sheep led by a lion, will always defeat an army of lions led by a sheep. |
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·magicjack.com
| said by mrkevin:Come on...you do not see people here getting turned away from heath care. I believe what you're saying is that if an individual is sick enough they will be treated by the ER. Or, if they become poor enough they can receive welfare Medicaid.
Until those conditions occur, they're effectively "turned away from healthcare," right? They can't purchase what they can afford: lessor choices which have been banned during the process of creating our "best healthcare system in the world," which is effectively a monopoly providing higher quality than these people would be willing to buy, and which is regularly accepted as normal around the world.
For three examples, see the one-hour documentary: Critical Condition.
said by mrkevin:It [people coming to the US for healthcare they can't buy in their own countries] isn't going to be an option to anyone once the government takes over. Welcome to the club! Americans already have that problem today. As America's healthcare industry gained exclusive control of the market (with the help of legislation to criminalize competition) millions of Americans lost options which were useful to them too.
We're not talking about establishing a new principle of coercion. Just spreading around the coercion that exists today.
Mark |
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 N3OGHYo Soy Col. "Bat" GuanoPremium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
kudos:1 | reply to mrkevin
Dude, why do you dance with that guy?
It's like hitting your head against a brick wall over and over. Gave it up years ago......
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Petty people are disproportionably corrupted by petty power… |
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mrkevinKnowledge comes, but wisdom lingers.Premium
join:2007-08-07
Aurora, ME | reply to amigo_boy
said by amigo_boy:I believe what you're saying is that if an individual is sick enough they will be treated by the ER. Or, if they become poor enough they can receive welfare Medicaid. Until those conditions occur, they're effectively "turned away from healthcare," right? They can't purchase what they can afford: lessor choices which have been banned during the process of creating our "best healthcare system in the world," which is effectively a monopoly providing higher quality than these people would be willing to buy, and which is regularly accepted as normal around the world. This is a lie. People are not being turned away from being treated.
asking me to watch a PBS documentary is like me asking you to watch a Fox news documentary.
PBS doesn't have much credibility with me.
said by amigo_boy:We're not talking about establishing a new principle of coercion. Just spreading around the coercion that exists today. Then you're not really interested in reform.
Meet the new boss...same as the old boss.
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An army of sheep led by a lion, will always defeat an army of lions led by a sheep. |
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mrkevinKnowledge comes, but wisdom lingers.Premium
join:2007-08-07
Aurora, ME | reply to N3OGH
You're right.
I'm done. (my head hurts) |
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·magicjack.com
| reply to mrkevin
said by mrkevin:This is a lie. People are not being turned away from being treated. The documentary follows three uninsured people. It's pretty clear they're denied healthcare as they try to pursue the American Dream (job, home, family, etc.).
As I said to PNH, you don't get something for nothing. You can't use Public Law to establish a medical monopoly, and set quality standards higher than they would be if left to consenting buyers and sellers. Something has to give. The documentary demonstrates how the "give" are people choosing between treatment (and routine healthcare which could have minimized their eventual crisis) and what most of us take for granted as basic comforts of life.
said by mrkevin:said by amigo_boy:We're not talking about establishing a new principle of coercion. Just spreading around the coercion that exists today. Then you're not really interested in reform. Meet the new boss...same as the old boss. Just spreading "the boss" around more equitably. The socially-enhanced medical system benefiting all of society instead of some. To me, that's "reform" until someone has a better solution.
As I've said before, maybe when it's everyone's problem we'll be more willing to discuss real solutions instead of pandering to class warfare.
It's not like we haven't had 16 years (since "Hillary care"). Why wait another 16?
Mark |
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·magicjack.com
| reply to mrkevin
said by mrkevin:asking me to watch a PBS documentary is like me asking you to watch a Fox news documentary. I watch Fox occasionally. Limbaugh too.
I like to have my ideas challenged. That's why I said I don't usually watch Moyers because his program is too comfortably liberal for my tastes (despite the fact that I lean liberal).
I don't limit myself to faith-building venues. You should try it sometime.
Mark |
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mrkevinKnowledge comes, but wisdom lingers.Premium
join:2007-08-07
Aurora, ME
1 edit | reply to amigo_boy
said by amigo_boy:The documentary follows three uninsured people. It's pretty clear they're denied healthcare as they try to pursue the American Dream (job, home, family, etc.). I watched the documentary:
Joe is getting free medicine samples from his doctor
Joe is seeing a doctor for his liver disease (not being turned away)
Karen needs a operation.
DR. ELLEN BLAIR SMITH: Karen, you're going to meet the financial councils, you'll meet all sorts of people who'll help you working on the bill part....
KAREN DOVE: Ok.
DR. ELLEN BLAIR SMITH: But you know, right now it's bills be damned, let's do this.
KAREN DOVE: Ok, thank you.
This doesn't sound like she's being turned away
Now she's on her way to surgery...
DR. ELLEN BLAIR SMITH: Well let's go in there, let's get it out and fix you. Alright? See you back there.
KAREN DOVE: Alright. Thank you, Doctor...
If we had some kind of medical system where everybody could get in there and be tested, they could stop some of this heartache. We do Karen, you just got to get in there and do it
SHE IS NOT BEING TURNED AWAY!!!!!
CARLOS BENITEZ [Spanish in English subtitles]:
1st have some pride you're an American citizen and speak English ESPECIALLY when you are making an American documentary....
I make 45 thousand dollars
I had insurance, they were giving me it was just medication that you can buy over the counter. And expenses is starting to go up, rent it went up, so it got to the point that I just needed that money that I was paying for the insurance in order to support my family. So I had to discontinue the insurance.
So Carlos discontinued his insurance, it wasn't taken from him.
Side note:
My wife just said "Dam 45,000, I need to be a chef"...
And Dr. Dowling tell me, "No, I don't think you're going to work, right now you're going to go to the hospital, because on your way to work you can die."
mmmm, sounds like he is being turned away.
OK I watched 18 minutes of it before I realized. you're right...
HAHAHA Just kidding!
I watched it and couldn't see where these people were being refused care or being treated badly.
All I see is compassion for these folks.
*Oh maybe Carlos needed the money for the huge stereo system behind him or his brand new car.
These people are better off than I am for CS
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An army of sheep led by a lion, will always defeat an army of lions led by a sheep. |
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·magicjack.com
| said by mrkevin:1. So Carlos discontinued his insurance, it wasn't taken from him. 2. Dam 45,000, I need to be a chef 3. mmmm, sounds like he is being turned away. 1. He said it only covered over-the-counter medications.
But, really, your position is that the people who lost their insurance due to no fault of their own (and ended up with pre-existing conditions which wouldn't be covered by any insurance company) are in a good place. They're getting care. "What's to complain about?" So, what does it matter that the chef gave up his insurance for whatever reason? Everyone should do that, right? 
2. $45k in Los Angeles isn't $45k in Aurora, Maine. For example, apartment rentals are twice the price. So, now you're talking $33k for a family of 4-5.
But, really, your position is that if someone has money for food or clothes, that's money they chose to spend on something other than healthcare. So, it's not the healthcare monopoly's fault, right?
3. That's a theme which you applied to each of the vignettes. For example, Mrs. Dove is told by her doctor "we're doing the operation. To heck with the bills."
Where was the doctor when the collection agencies began calling? Or, when the husband had a legacy of bills to pay after Dove's death?
If credit card companies operated like that it would be called predatory lending(!). "Don't worry about how you'll pay us back, we'll give you a pay-day loan." And then, a month later you find out you're paying 400% interest.
Remember, these people didn't merely experience high healthcare prices. They experienced higher prices throughout their lives as a result of their credit scores being ruined. (Higher home & auto insurance. Higher loan rates. Higher prices for rent. Fewer job opportunities.).
Mark |
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