Weekend Open Thread > Healthcare Reform--- the REAL agenda

said by mrkevin:

NO, I think you are mixing me up with someone else.
I never said

said by amigo_boy:

You said: "If these other countries have such a wonderful level of health care, let's start sending those people there."

said by amigo_boy:

For some people (who can't afford our "best healthcare system in the world"), affordable basic care in those other countries might be desirable if the alternative is no care here (or, ER care after a problem becomes critical, and the individual is prepared to go bankrupt).

said by amigo_boy:

However, coming to the US for "the best healthcare in the world" is an option for those who can afford it.

said by mrkevin:

Come on...you do not see people here getting turned away from heath care.

said by mrkevin:

It [people coming to the US for healthcare they can't buy in their own countries] isn't going to be an option to anyone once the government takes over.

said by amigo_boy:

I believe what you're saying is that if an individual is sick enough they will be treated by the ER. Or, if they become poor enough they can receive welfare Medicaid.

Until those conditions occur, they're effectively "turned away from healthcare," right? They can't purchase what they can afford: lessor choices which have been banned during the process of creating our "best healthcare system in the world," which is effectively a monopoly providing higher quality than these people would be willing to buy, and which is regularly accepted as normal around the world.

said by amigo_boy:

We're not talking about establishing a new principle of coercion. Just spreading around the coercion that exists today.

said by mrkevin:

This is a lie. People are not being turned away from being treated.

said by mrkevin:

Then you're not really interested in reform.
Meet the new boss...same as the old boss.

said by amigo_boy:

The documentary follows three uninsured people. It's pretty clear they're denied healthcare as they try to pursue the American Dream (job, home, family, etc.).

said by mrkevin:

1. So Carlos discontinued his insurance, it wasn't taken from him.

2. Dam 45,000, I need to be a chef

3. mmmm, sounds like he is being turned away.

said by amigo_boy:

He said it only covered over-the-counter medications.

said by amigo_boy:

$45k in Los Angeles isn't $45k in Aurora, Maine. For example, apartment rentals are twice the price. So, now you're talking $33k for a family of 4-5.

said by amigo_boy:

But, really, your position is that if someone has money for food or clothes, that's money they chose to spend on something other than healthcare. So, it's not the healthcare monopoly's fault, right?

said by amigo_boy:

That's a theme which you applied to each of the vignettes. For example, Mrs. Dove is told by her doctor "we're doing the operation. To heck with the bills."

Where was the doctor when the collection agencies began calling? Or, when the husband had a legacy of bills to pay after Dove's death?

said by mrkevin:

No, Carlos said he was only being prescribed over-the-counter drugs.

said by mrkevin:

Well kinda.

said by mrkevin:

I understand people need food, clothing shelter, but they also need their health. And they put it at the bottom of the list and then shout "WAIT I AM A VICTIM OF SOCIETY". You can't have it both ways.

said by mrkevin:

But your main premise is that these people are not being treated or being given substandard care. It's just not true.

said by mrkevin:

What about where she said I can pay $40.00 a month and they said OK.
Christ, I have a co-pay on my insurance higher than that.

said by amigo_boy:

He said: "Many years ago when I had insurance, they were giving me it was just medication that you can buy over the counter. "

That could mean the insurance company wasn't covering anything, which occurs frequently today. People pay premiums only to have claims denied.

said by amigo_boy:

It could also mean he didn't see any value in it.

He should have paid for insurance that he wasn't getting a benefit from?

said by amigo_boy:

You are applying Maslove's "hierarchy of needs"

said by amigo_boy:

That's not much of a choice.

said by mrkevin:

Ahhh, I guess he see the value in it now, and yes he should have been paying premiums and he wouldn't be in this mess.

said by mrkevin:

Now it's someone else's problem to come to the rescue and pick up the pieces...Blahhhh

said by mrkevin:

Life is all about choices.

said by mrkevin:

What about my choice of having government LEAVE ME ALONE.
I guess the minority dictates to the majority and everyone loses in the end.

said by amigo_boy:

You don't know that. There are plenty of cases of insurance companies denying claims (after years of paying premiums) as "pre-existing conditions." People have been denied coverage for heart disease because they saw a doctor 20 years earlier for chest pain.

said by patcat88:

Try reading a typical policy some time. Its only 3 pages. »docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cach···en&gl=us
I see lots of loopholes and a pretty long exclusion list.

said by amigo_boy:

Imagine if we gave the collision repair industry a monopoly. Resulting costs of fixing fender benders would be higher than a free market. As a result, the distribution (insurance) of that cost risk would be higher than a free market. Would it really be an uncoerced "choice" when people choose food and clothing over auto insurance?

said by patcat88:

We did. Your bumper is make of plastic and styrofoam unless you buy a pickup.

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumper_(au···tandards

said by amigo_boy:

And, from the link you provided it looked like the industry pushed for lower standards (resulting in lower repair costs?).

said by patcat88:

The shills will say "but the unibody frame deforming [and totalling] from a 5 mph crash gives you a 5 star safety rating, think of your children".

said by amigo_boy:

That was for one doctor visit costing $1000+. Compound that by multiple visits. A hospital stay. The costs of an anesthesiologist. Medicine costing almost $2000 per month.

How many $40.00 a month payments does that add up to? When they only earn $14k per year?

Mark

said by patcat88:

lets follow Calvinist doctrine and say if you earn $14K a year, its because of God's will, and if your sick, its because of God's will, and God wants you dead, so its wrong for anyone to help you.

said by JOE STORNAIUOLO :

I don't want to live like this. I mean, can't get Social Security, I'm too young. Can't get welfare, make a little bit too much.
...
Oh without a liver, I'm not going to get better. Liver transplant costs about 150 to 200 thousand dollars. If you're broke, you could get the medicine, you could get the hospital, everything else. But if you work hard all your life you get nothing.

said by amigo_boy:

BTW: What did you think of this part:

said by amigo_boy:

The irony is that Republicans are all wee-wee'd up about end-of-life counseling.

said by mrkevin:

COME ON.
Did Joe really think he was living the American dream by being a Door man?

said by sonicmerlin :


And why do you think you'll give the government control of your health? It's the doctors who will be making the decisions about what screenings and treatments you will receive. The government won't be involved in any of their decisions (just like they're not involved in any other country). Right now you are controlled by private insurance companies whose sole purpose is to make money, even if that includes denying coverage to people on retarded "pre-existing conditions".

said by sonicmerlin:

Where is this "huge cost increase" coming from? Every other developed country with nationalized healthcare spends 2 and a half times less than us.

said by mrkevin:

asking me to watch a PBS documentary is like me asking you to watch a Fox news documentary.

said by sonicmerlin:

I've tried watching Fox, but they lie so frequently and twist, bend, and altogether break logic so often that it drives me bonkers.

It drives me nuts that my mom, for example, continually defends Fox for being much more "fair and balanced" than other news outlets.