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elray
join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA Reviews:
 ·SONIC.NET
 ·RoadRunner Cable
| reply to bigunk
Re: Celebrating "Labor"...? said by bigunk:True, but throw in there that Toyota is going to be closing their Fremont, CA plant (and maybe some others, but I'm not 100% sure). A bummer. I have friends that work there. The Fremont plant is closing because it was operated like a GM factory, complete with all the union nonsense, and the state of California's regulatory environment.
I have no love for CEO's that make 300x the line worker's wage, but they are not the problem here.
Unfortunately, the public employee unions are an even larger threat to our state economy. I don't know how any small business can or will afford to continue to operate here, especially as the pensions come due. | | |
|
 bigunkGort, Klattu Birada Nikto
join:2001-02-10
USA | Actually, I think there were no unions there, and everyone was quite happy. I think I read somewhere that that factory was a joint venture between Toyota and one of the big 3.
I agree with you. Unions don't help anymore. They were a great idea when they started, and for a time after that. Now, they exist only to feed their own existence, not really caring for the workers as long as they pay their dues and vote the union way.
The CA regulatory issues are the other factor. No argument there. Have a look at my tag line, and you'll see how I think.
--
There is not a man in the country that can't make a living for himself and family. But he can't make a living for them AND his government, the way his government is living. What the government has got to do is live as cheap as the people.
- Will Rogers | |
| said by bigunk:Actually, I think there were no unions there, and everyone was quite happy. I think I read somewhere that that factory was a joint venture between Toyota and one of the big 3. I agree with you. Unions don't help anymore. They were a great idea when they started, and for a time after that. Now, they exist only to feed their own existence, not really caring for the workers as long as they pay their dues and vote the union way. The CA regulatory issues are the other factor. No argument there. Have a look at my tag line, and you'll see how I think. Sigh...if only you realized how foolish you sound.
Minimum wage in America is significantly lower than in other, European "socialist" countries. And you're blaming unions for giant corporations' problems?
GM made untold profits for decades but refused to invest in meaningful R&D. Consumer trends changed significantly over the last 2 decades as people became more environmentally conscience. GM refused to significantly alter their product lines. And you're blaming unions for these problems?
You can thank your 8 hr day, 5 day/week, + vacation time and benefits, and all the other amenities of your job, on unions. And you can thank them for preventing large corporations from returning us back to the "good old days" of the late 19th and early 20th century. | |
Reviews:
 ·magicjack.com
1 edit | said by sonicmerlin:Consumer trends changed significantly over the last 2 decades as people became more environmentally conscience. I don't know if I'd blame automakers for finding themselves without the products consumers want today. During the "bubble," consumers couldn't get enough monster-truck SUVs. The automakers were just meeting the fickle will of consumers.
IMO, this (along with what happened in the mid '70s and early '80s) is a good example of why government should set CAFE (fuel economy) standards to help the auto industry have a longer-term vision than just what the public wants to buy today. If the auto industry wasn't "too big to fail" I'd be ok letting them suffer their own consequence. But, whenever they find themselves caught flat footed like this we always have to bail them out (because the alternative is worse).
I agree with you about unions being pretty good. I don't know if I'd compare ours to Europe's unions. Europe has more holistic/coherent labor laws, facilitating cooperation between labor and management. Something more like "workplace democracy," not an antagonistic relationship with both sides viewing the business as something to be pillaged at the expense of the other side.
Mark | |
elray
join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·RoadRunner Cable
| reply to sonicmerlin
said by sonicmerlin:said by bigunk:Actually, I think there were no unions there, and everyone was quite happy. I think I read somewhere that that factory was a joint venture between Toyota and one of the big 3. Unions don't help anymore. Now, they exist only to feed their own existence, not really caring for the workers as long as they pay their dues and vote the union way. Sigh...if only you realized how foolish you sound. GM made untold profits for decades but refused to invest in meaningful R&D. Consumer trends changed significantly over the last 2 decades as people became more environmentally conscience. GM refused to significantly alter their product lines. And you're blaming unions for these problems? You can thank your 8 hr day, 5 day/week, + vacation time and benefits, and all the other amenities of your job, on unions. And you can thank them for preventing large corporations from returning us back to the "good old days" of the late 19th and early 20th century. No, thank you. In my entire life, unions only served to prevent me from being hired. Closed shop means just that.
No argument that GM management contributed to its demise as well, designing clunkers. But what pushed them over the edge, was agreeing to unlimited retiree healthcare benefits and phenomenal wages. All they did was postpone the day of reckoning.
Unions may have worked for some, at the expense of others, but when they become an effective monopoly for labor, and take too much at the table, then management WILL take away all the marbles, and go home, which we've seen time and again in American industry.
And for sonicmerlin, YES, Fremont was a union shop. | |
| said by elray:said by sonicmerlin:said by bigunk:Actually, I think there were no unions there, and everyone was quite happy. I think I read somewhere that that factory was a joint venture between Toyota and one of the big 3. Unions don't help anymore. Now, they exist only to feed their own existence, not really caring for the workers as long as they pay their dues and vote the union way. Sigh...if only you realized how foolish you sound. GM made untold profits for decades but refused to invest in meaningful R&D. Consumer trends changed significantly over the last 2 decades as people became more environmentally conscience. GM refused to significantly alter their product lines. And you're blaming unions for these problems? You can thank your 8 hr day, 5 day/week, + vacation time and benefits, and all the other amenities of your job, on unions. And you can thank them for preventing large corporations from returning us back to the "good old days" of the late 19th and early 20th century. No, thank you. In my entire life, unions only served to prevent me from being hired. Closed shop means just that. No argument that GM management contributed to its demise as well, designing clunkers. But what pushed them over the edge, was agreeing to unlimited retiree healthcare benefits and phenomenal wages. All they did was postpone the day of reckoning. Unions may have worked for some, at the expense of others, but when they become an effective monopoly for labor, and take too much at the table, then management WILL take away all the marbles, and go home, which we've seen time and again in American industry. And for sonicmerlin, YES, Fremont was a union shop. ...sigh... think about it from this very specific, limited perspective. Without unions you'd still be working 14 hours/day, 7 days a week.
By limiting the number of hours in a "full-time" employment, unions have actually increased employment opportunities overall.
I don't know about your specific experiences, but unions do a lot of good that you apparently are not aware of. Why don't you read a little bit about the topic before you espouse your hate? | |
elray
join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·RoadRunner Cable
| said by sonicmerlin:...sigh... think about it from this very specific, limited perspective. Without unions you'd still be working 14 hours/day, 7 days a week. By limiting the number of hours in a "full-time" employment, unions have actually increased employment opportunities overall. I don't know about your specific experiences, but unions do a lot of good that you apparently are not aware of. Why don't you read a little bit about the topic before you espouse your hate? The standard refuge of today's leftist scoundrel: my attestation to the simple FACT that unions destroy jobs, and blockaded my employment for years, is "hate".
Please demonstrate, in today's context, ANY place where the presence of a union has attracted employers and created wealth.
You can't.
Instead, unions cause employers to leave town, either out of state, or offshore.
I've worked with several locals, and seen the books.
I was never surprised when the subpoenas came followed by indictments. I have plenty of exposure to union administration and operation.
Wasn't it you who claimed Fremont had no union?
Perhaps you should read a little bit on the topic. | |
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