dngrslitlguy
@primus.ca
| [Internet] Bell tech with DSL problems at home
I've worked for Bell as a field tech for about 3 years in the GTA and on my line at home I'm having trouble with my sync rate.
With the tools I've been given to do my job, I am not able to properly diagnose the problem on my own line at home.
I've always had a perfect line in terms of metallic figures.
No crosses, grounds, shorts, leakage, unbalances. Very little induced AC voltage, good loop current, good calculated balance (PI-MN).
I even shorted the line at the house and measured towards it from the cross connect box to see a good solid short, and I did. Nice low loop resistance.
Nothing to indicate any type of problem shows up on my meter.
The line is POTS split at the NID with CAT5 along the outside of the house to the modem jack in my room.
Ever since I moved here, I have always had a close to the limit line occupation capacity (95%) at 4032kbps to my house, but my connection never dropped, and at one point I had an uptime of over 6 months. (Last state change in lantern.)
Over the last few months, that figure has crept up closer to 100% and now ocassionally crosses it, disconnects, and reconnects at around 3584 or so on the downstream. Even measurements from the pedestal came up in the same range. Capped out. No more good 4M sync.
I'm DSLAM fed, and at the cross connect box, I can pull up just over 8M attainable on the F1. The F2 from there to the pedestal in my next door neighbours back yard is just under 400 meters according to the meter.
(Yes, there is a Stinger, but I prefer to stay CO based so nobody can pull my jumper at random in a screwup, steal my port or have to worry about all the other bugs associated with Stinger based lines.)
Tried a cut to clear at the pedestal, with no improvement in the sync rate. Got a co-worker to swing by one day to work at the cross connect box, while I was at the ped, and move my jumper to a new F2, one by one, and help me try syncing on many different F2s that metered good metallic-wise. I got mixed results. No sync rate over 5M at the ped on any F2.
Tapped into a second binder of a cable passing through to other pedestals down the line, and found a F2 that said about 5800 atainable. Figured this was as good as it was going to get. At least now I could finally get a solid 4M, and possibly push it to 5M I presumed.
Apparently I was wrong. Lantern showed fluctuations in the attainable sync rate to my modem from 5800 down to 5100 or less when I checked it at random. A change to my profile to 5M on the new F2 resulted in a jump to 99% occupation capacity. No go.
At this point I figured I would have to settle for a solid 4M, and be done with it. Monitored my line for a few days and all was good.
Scratching my head wondering why I could not pull up anywhere close to 8M at the ped, I re-checked the power influence to ensure that the F2 was properly grounded and bonded, and it came back in the 70db range. Still no issues there.
After checking in on my line a couple days ago, I noticed the modem had once again been forced to drop sync and resync below 4M. The attainable has since gone back up, and a simple port reset had the modem sync back up again at it's full 4M, but obviously there is still underlying issues.
Now I'm back to square one.
The problem is clearly in the F2, but how do you see it if you don't have the proper tools? I wish I had a meter with xDSL impulse noise and g-filter crosstalk measurement capabilities at my disposal (i.e. Fluke Networks 990DSL2+ CopperPro Series II), but I get the feeling that it's too much to ask for. Whether or not that would help me troubleshoot further I don't know.
Anyone wish to take a stab at what may help? |
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xbell
@cgocable.net
| reply to dngrslitlguy
Re: [Internet] Bell tech with DSL problems at home
If you are able to play to this extent with your line with little improvement then there is no hope for the rest of Bells customers in the same situation.
Good post on some of the technical solutions copper based customers should expect on ticket if the tech treated the line as "his own".
Bell had me in for some training a few years ago as a transmission tech. when they were going to close out Expertech.
Those guys get some good shit that would tweek those F2 pairs for you.
What meter is BTS giving you to use in the field now?
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Harleyguy
join:2008-02-01
Waterdown, ON
| reply to dngrslitlguy
You say the f2 is 400 meters
Whats the lenght of the f1 ??
As for attainable rate, I have never had much faith in that measurement. Try using a 2wire on a long loop and you will see how much the attainable rate will increase.
Just get cutover to the remote. You can fix it yourself if the internet goes down. |
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freejazz_RdJ
join:2009-03-10
| reply to dngrslitlguy
Have you considered that it may be a crosstalk issue? If the Ped feeding any legacy circuits? What are your DSL bins (Bits allocated per tone, ~4Khz spacing)? If you see any gaps, it might give you an idea of frequency the interference is on. Have you swapped modems to rule out defective hardware?
I've got to wonder what else would be running in the F2 that could cause this issue. Surely Bell isn't using old T1 coding/modulation schemes anymore?
Best bet is probably to ask someone with a data/xDSL specialty in the others techs you work with. |
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dngrslitlguy
@primus.ca
1 edit | reply to dngrslitlguy
said by xbell :
What meter is BTS giving you to use in the field now?
We've got the 3M Dynatel 950ADSL2 Plus. It has no real DSL diagnostic functions, only a built in modem with stats display capability, hence the need to try random F2s and see how well they sync, as opposed to metering vacants and determine which would be best suited before moving the line over.
said by Harleyguy  :You say the f2 is 400 meters Whats the lenght of the f1 ?? Shouldn't be more than 3km. Webcare estimates the distance using the DSL signal at 2.3km, and metallic testing estimates it at 2.73km.
The current modem I use is the 2wire, but the attainable results were measured on the 3M meter at the ped and OPI.
said by Harleyguy :Have you considered that it may be a crosstalk issue? If the Ped feeding any legacy circuits? What are your DSL bins (Bits allocated per tone, ~4Khz spacing)? If you see any gaps, it might give you an idea of frequency the interference is on. Have you swapped modems to rule out defective hardware? I'm pretty sure it is some sort of crosstalk issue, but without the proper tools to determine this, I can only guess.
I don't believe the ped is feeding anything other than standard services to the 8 townhouses in my segment based on the number of BSW drops leaving it.
I haven't swapped out modems, but I have ruled out hardware issues on the day where I noticed the modem did not have full sync, so I went out to the NID and used the meter to test the line, and it came back with pretty much the same degraded sync rate my modem was stuck at. Moved to the F2 in the ped, and it wasn't really any better. Move to the cross connect box on the F1, and it was perfect with plenty of headroom.
As for asking other techs I work with for help, that won't do much, because I'm the guy they come to when they have a problem...
Here's the bitloading image from the 2wire modem MDC.
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kovy
join:2009-03-26 | Webcare is not the best tool to mesure distance... it's pretty much way off. If you know somebody at the test center, ask them to do a test with Calrs.
Your 3m will have a higher attainable results then any modem. |
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vintagewino
join:2003-07-22
Grimsby, ON
 ·TekSavvy Solutions..
 ·magicjack.com
·Look Communications
| reply to dngrslitlguy
said by dngrslitlguy :
I've worked for Bell as a field tech for about ...
... Anyone wish to take a stab at what may help?
Dngrslitlguy, you came close to owing me a new keyboard! Maniacal laughter from your post and soft drink not a good combination make!  
It does make me feel a bit better since one of your "team" was at my place on the 10th. I think he was using the 3M meter. My only query is: when you disconnect from the demarc and read back toward the CO, and measure a crap result, WHY is the fault automatically transferred toward the domicile??? This has happened 2x, now.
The dangling wires taken off the demarc showed 3008 d/l @ 100%RCO back to the CO. The ID-10-T's immediately said the problem was at MY end!!
Gets even better. Bell boy takes a trip to the brown box 5 houses down, disconnects my feeder pair, and measures 5.9M @ 50%RCO to the CO. His test meter says 380 meters from brown box to my demarc. Visually following the cabling, from demarc to pole, overshooting the brown box to the next pole, down the pole, into the ground, backtrack to brown box, back up and into the brown box would be no more than 220 meters, tops. My result is an erratic d/l SNR, varying from 12-13 db @ 3M, right down to retraining. RCO varies from 70% UP!!
It appears I also get noise pulses on the line.
Now how do you get 400 meters when the box is by your next-door neighbour? Do you live in the country?
My only query would be if there might be moisture in the F2, or bad wires. Seems like we share the same problem ....  |
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Harleyguy
join:2008-02-01
Waterdown, ON | reply to dngrslitlguy
I think you have answered your own question.
You need a meter that will measure impulse and noise.
Just a thought , are there any bridge taps on that f1 ? |
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Harleyguy
join:2008-02-01
Waterdown, ON | reply to vintagewino
A wet would shows as tip or ring x |
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dngrslitlguy
@primus.ca
| reply to Harleyguy
said by Harleyguy :I think you have answered your own question. You need a meter that will measure impulse and noise. Just a thought , are there any bridge taps on that f1 ? I wouldn't know where to get one. Obviously the company believes I can do my job without it, which is why they haven't provided me with one. I can't say I agree with that though. I'd prefer to have one instead of changing a F2 blindly to try and fix a customers problem.
Even if I did have one right now, and found excessive broadband noise and impulses, it'd still be a matter of locating and isolating the problem out.
As for the F1 having bridge taps, I would have to run the tests, but what are the odds? I don't have a problem with the F1 readings.
I've verified that the F2 doesn't have any bridge taps by visiting each ped along the path to the OPI. |
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dngrslitlguy
@primus.ca
| reply to vintagewino
said by kovy :Webcare is not the best tool to mesure distance... it's pretty much way off. If you know somebody at the test center, ask them to do a test with Calrs. Your 3m will have a higher attainable results then any modem. Can't do that tonight, but the 3M shows 3.9-4.0km to the CO from the NID. I'll have to compare that against the CALRS result when I get it.
said by vintagewino :said by dngrslitlguy :
I've worked for Bell as a field tech for about ...
... Anyone wish to take a stab at what may help? Dngrslitlguy, you came close to owing me a new keyboard! Maniacal laughter from your post and soft drink not a good combination make! It does make me feel a bit better since one of your "team" was at my place on the 10th. I think he was using the 3M meter. My only query is: when you disconnect from the demarc and read back toward the CO, and measure a crap result, WHY is the fault automatically transferred toward the domicile??? This has happened 2x, now. His test meter says 380 meters from brown box to my demarc. Now how do you get 400 meters when the box is by your next-door neighbour? Do you live in the country? My only query would be if there might be moisture in the F2, or bad wires. Seems like we share the same problem .... Keyboards are CPE, so I'd have to bill you a DMC before replacing your keyboard. To the contrary of what most people think, they're not covered by wirecare.
If he was from BTS, he was definitely using the 3M meter, or worst case scenario, a CoLT meter for DSL in combination with an older POTs only 3M meter. Doesn't really make a difference in the end though, because the only thing they do is act like a modem on the end.
It's possible you had multiple troubles. Capped out towards the CO, but a marginal short in the house that needed attention as well. I can't really say.
The meters estimate distance through a capacitance calculation. Different and mixed gauge wiring can throw it off, as it's set for a specific gauge. Most common estimation error I run into is that older thicker single pair drop tends to show up as a longer distance than it really is, but that is expected because of its thicker conductor/higher capacitance. Either way, it's only a rough value meant to be used as a guide when troubleshooting.
In my case the ped is in my next door neighbours back yard, and the feed to it passes through about 3 more in other segments of the townhouses, before it goes under the street, across to the other side, and up into the cross connect box. This is in Mississauga.
As for it being moisture in the F2, probably not since this would probably show up in leakage measurements, especially when rainy out, and I haven't seen any problems of this sort on my line. |
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Harleyguy
join:2008-02-01
Waterdown, ON | If your 4 km from the co thats your problem. Most people are lucky if they get 3m al2 at that distance. |
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kovy
join:2009-03-26
1 edit | said by Harleyguy :If your 4 km from the co thats your problem. Most people are lucky if they get 3m al2 at that distance. That's what I was about to say... I would just go with the remote or slam jwi and risk it... but that's just me. |
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comar
@com.ar
1 edit | reply to dngrslitlguy
might be able to help you to further test your line. If interested send an email to comar {edited to remove email address} |
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sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
H0H 0H0
 ·Rogers Hi-Speed
Host:
Rogers
Bell Canada
1 edit | DO NOT send an email to comar or anyone else offering to help unless they are on the list of Bell authorized employees to help here.
You have NO IDEA whatsoever who he is. He is certainly not on a list of Bell authorized people who help here.
He will need personal details that you'd be giving away to anyone.
He may be legit, but we have no way of knowing, and we don't want you giving away personal info. |
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Glen1
These Are The Good Ol' Days.
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-24
GTA Canada
·Bell Sympatico
| reply to dngrslitlguy
Cut yourself over to the Oslam or get in touch with the XDSL group at Bell who are cable repair techs. You are going to waste valuable resources when your fear of the Oslam or "remote" are unfounded. My OPI has a padlock on it now (finally) so that only authorized personnel can access it. I have been on one for over a year and my dsl has been solid. If you still want to do more troubleshooting as a "learning" experience then get in touch with the XDSL group at Bell for help and more answers. Register your nic on here and PM me for the address or web page. Talk to the BTS trainers for that information if you don't trust me. Ask Kipp.
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My Canada includes Quebec. |
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dngrslitlguy
@primus.ca
| said by Glen1 :Cut yourself over to the Oslam or get in touch with the XDSL group at Bell who are cable repair techs. You are going to waste valuable resources when your fear of the Oslam or "remote" are unfounded. My OPI has a padlock on it now (finally) so that only authorized personnel can access it. I have been on one for over a year and my dsl has been solid. If you still want to do more troubleshooting as a "learning" experience then get in touch with the XDSL group at Bell for help and more answers. Register your nic on here and PM me for the address or web page. Talk to the BTS trainers for that information if you don't trust me. Ask Kipp. There is no challenge or learning involved in moving my line over to the remote. There is clearly a problem, and I want to find it. As for contacting trainers, I was told in my DSL course that I would never need to know how to use the PING functionality on my meter. Once I figured out how to use it on my own, it has come in handy on many occasions. I can't say I have a lot of faith in the trainers. Well, BTS trainers of course.
As for the padlocks, I'm not worried about random people off the street yanking anything. I'm talking about techs not wanting to wait on hold for 10 minutes trying to get a hold of assignment and then holding on another 10 minutes while they try and find a vacant port. Not that it's a rampant thing that goes on, but it definitely does. New hires are also a problem at first.
If you're referring to the xDSL website on the VPN, I'm aware of it, but I don't know how I could use it to help me out. |
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dngrslitlguy
@primus.ca
| reply to dngrslitlguy
said by kovy :Webcare is not the best tool to mesure distance... it's pretty much way off. If you know somebody at the test center, ask them to do a test with Calrs. With the F2 disconnected at the OPI, the woman at TB said CALRS reports line good open at 2.2km.
My meter on the F1 towards the CO reports 3.6km down T-G R-G.
Here's some more data for you guys...
The first is with a 2wire modem on the F1 at the OPI.
The second is to my 2wire at home.
No change in upstream at all (except attenuation of course).
Decrease in SNR and capacity on the downstream through the F2. |
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Glen1
These Are The Good Ol' Days.
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-24
GTA Canada
·Bell Sympatico
1 edit | reply to dngrslitlguy
You might want to find out that the BTS trainers were "trained" by the Cable techs who I told you about. That is why I referred to them...they know how to get in touch with the XDSL group for further questions. When I have an issue on a dsl line (that I cannot figure out) that is who I get in touch with because they know more than I do. Once again I invite you to register your nic (name) on this site, PM (private message) me and I will give their email address so you can ask them for assistance directly. I don't want to give it here for fear of everyone flooding their inbox. (the xdsl group also has a newsletter that comes out once a month describing their troubles fixed and what the problem was...very interesting reading).
Edit: I just went to their page on the VPN and their address is right on the page under the big blue Bell sign. Send them an email and mention my name here and they will respond on Monday...they are very good at helping others get better at what they do.
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My Canada includes Quebec. |
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