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LazMan
Premium
join:2003-03-26
canada
reply to tcan1

Re: Opening an ISP in Canada

OK - 30M is a good start. That just for OSP construction, or for your whole first-year start-up budget?

And either way, it'll burn through quickly in the GTA - SSA/LOA/RoW costs are incredible... And that's just to get the permission to build - you haven't even put a shovel in the ground, yet.

Myself, I'd start in a smaller area (Barrie?) where the cost of doing business isn't as high; but there's still reasonable density to work with...

Are you looking to target business or residential customers?

tcan1

join:2009-09-12
reply to tcan1
Looking to target residential customers. Barrie dosent sound like a bad place to start I was thinking Brampton at first with a population over over 400,000.

How much are the costs for permissions? Is there a site I can find all the detail at?

I am really willing to get new competition out there but just need help getting started step by step.

Once the internet business starts going good im even thinking about going into the wireless sector after.

HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet

join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON
kudos:5
reply to 34764170
said by 34764170:

Depends on the size of the city but IMO that is very low for a city the size of Toronto.
Very low for a city the size of Toronto. Construction costs go up significantly the more urban an area is as well.

Verizon has spent billions on FiOS.


LazMan
Premium
join:2003-03-26
canada
reply to tcan1
Residential?

I'm out. There's no money in it, unless you're looking to go triple-play - and the costs to establish telephony and video; add several zero's to your start-up cost...

You negotiate the costs with the other utilities, or the muncipality... Leasing space in an existing Bell duct, or going joint-use on an existing hydro pole; have a "setup" cost, and a monthly recurring cost - the amounts of which depend greatly on the area you're in, the length of lease you're looking for, along with many other factors... It's also usually covered by an NDA, for business reasons.

If your backers are serious, then they need a consultant or partner that knows the business... Becoming a facilities-based ISP isn't a quick and easy venture; and if they're going in blind, they may as well just dig a hole, and bury their money...

tcan1

join:2009-09-12
reply to tcan1
Can increase the price. Not looking to get into video atm..

If someone can please just provide me step by step on what should be done that way I can have a better idea and talk to someone else on the outside who has much knowledge about this and start the work asap.

Thanks!


LazMan
Premium
join:2003-03-26
canada

1 edit
said by tcan1:

Can increase the price. Not looking to get into video atm..

If someone can please just provide me step by step on what should be done that way I can have a better idea and talk to someone else on the outside who has much knowledge about this and start the work asap.

Thanks!
Step by step?

Step 1 - hire a consultant that knows the business... I'd suggest myself, but that's just one option. They can prepare, for a fee, a business plan; outlining what's involved, and costs.

Not trying to stone-wall, or be a jackass - but I've got over 10 years in the business; many others here have as much, or longer - we've had to work for what we know... I get paid to build and maintain networks - it's my living - and I can't, and won't give it away for free...

Plus remember, information, is like everything else - you get what you pay for...

HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet

join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON
kudos:5

1 recommendation

reply to tcan1
said by tcan1:

If someone can please just provide me step by step on what should be done
Just go to Amazon.CA and order the book on it. Its called "Building a Fiber ISP for Dummies". I hear its a huge seller, because so many people have a few hundred million dollars hanging around doing nothing, and need to learn how to blow it.


An_Onymous

@teksavvy.com
reply to 34764170
Yeah... To build out a full fiber network for GTA, you are probably looking at a very optimistic figure of 300 million dollars. This is based on the cost for in Hong Kong which is about 125% size of GTA with similar population density but with much cheaper labor, completely deregulated, no foreign ownership restrictions and no right of way issues.

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HKBN
>Its 100% self-built IP network (Metro-Ethernet) with cumulative investment of HK$2.6 billion, is independent from the incumbent operator
>As of 31 August 2008, HKBN’s broadband network covers 1.5 million Hong Kong households

$2.6 billion HK is $361,204,313.77 CAD at exchange rate of 1 CAD = 7.19814 HKD


twizlar
I dont think so.
Premium
join:2003-12-24
Brantford, ON
kudos:3
I would at least double that figure, toronto has retarded priced for everything needed to install a new fibre network. Access alone will probably cost that much. Like others suggested, start with smaller cities, barrie would be a decent place to start (lots of toronto hippies with lots of money to burn)
--
Broadline Networks Inc.

tcan1

join:2009-09-12
Ok will look into Barrie. Will even make a trip down there this Friday or Saturday.


twizlar
I dont think so.
Premium
join:2003-12-24
Brantford, ON
kudos:3
As well, outside of the toronto core, many other cities have extensive fibre networks you could possibly purchase access over.

I would think a major problem here will be getting into existing subdivisions with enough penetration to make money on it.

Something else to look at is talking to some of the builders for new subdivision deployment, its a lot easier to install the stuff when there is no concrete to work around. If you are serious about this I have quite a few contacts that work directly with a lot of the builders in southern ontario (mainly in the engineering sector).
--
Broadline Networks Inc.

tcan1

join:2009-09-12
Hi thanks for the input twizlar. I have actually contacted LazMan he said he has a lot of experience in this field. Going to see how that goes first.


twizlar
I dont think so.
Premium
join:2003-12-24
Brantford, ON
kudos:3
Absolutely, he works for a *large* company and should be able to give you some good input.
--
Broadline Networks Inc.


pnjunction
Teksavvy Extreme
Premium
join:2008-01-24
Toronto, ON
kudos:1
reply to tcan1
30 million? That's $30 per household in Toronto.

Try $300 million. Also beware of predatory pricing.

Shaw dropped $9.95 services (high-speed, phone, TV) on Novus out in Vancouver and battle is still ongoing.

Vomio

join:2008-04-01
Reviews:
·odynet
reply to tcan1
I think the biggest worry would be any place you pick becoming an instant target for Bell.

They have deep pockets, a dislike of competition, major infrastructure already in place and the ability to pull deployment off quickly if so desired. Fredricton & St. John, New Brunswick come to mind as examples of rapid deployment in progress.

Of course you and your backers have probably considered this and may be willing to go toe to toe with such competition.

Vomio


LazMan
Premium
join:2003-03-26
canada
reply to tcan1
Thanks for the kinds words, Twizlar...

tcan1 - I think that you've got some legwork to do, before you're in a postion to need technical consultants... Getting a business plan together, identifying specific target audiences, marketing direction, etc... Maybe should have asked this earlier - are you in the business now (working for an ISP or telco)? or have your backers got experience in the business?


kewlkeed
Grouch
Premium
join:2005-02-05
Knowlton, QC
kudos:1
reply to tcan1
I'm with Laz on this one...

You've got 30MIL just kicking around... and you're looking in HERE for advice? You sir need to do some very serious homework, and I'm no professional, but even I can tell you that you haven't a damn clue what you're up against if you're even THINKING of asking the questions you're asking in here. This place is a good forum, but it's not where you would go to ask this sort of stuff if you're throwing that kind of money around. If you plan on being an utter failure like some of these Munifi Projects, then by all means ask your questions here... If you have any brains, take 100K and hire some people who really know what they're talking about and have been there, done that, and can walk the walk, and have them tell you what to do. Don't come on here asking for a step by step guide of how to build Fios in a box by throwing money at it.

The utter thought that you're asking what your asking in here, and can even think of tossing that kind of money based on it, scares the SHIT out of me.
--
Justin - DSLR resident grouch and Mr Negativity
TSI Fanboy - "Dontchya wish your 'net was hot like mine! Ohhh Dontchya!"
Have a nice day!


kewlkeed
Grouch
Premium
join:2005-02-05
Knowlton, QC
kudos:1
reply to tcan1
Hell, throw 100K at me and I'll go hunt down some consultants for you. It'll still pay off for you in the long run compared to wasting time asking questions in here. If you're that serious about it and have that kind of money the offer I just made, makes more sense than your actions right now.


twizlar
I dont think so.
Premium
join:2003-12-24
Brantford, ON
kudos:3
reply to tcan1
I think realistically, for anything like this to work you have to start small scale. The economics just don't make sense to do a full scale rollout off the start (not to mention no one has that kind of cash lying around). Find a GOOD test market, possibly a place with a poor showing by bell or rogers, anything to improve your chances of gaining market share and popularity. I'm not sure of the specific costs involved in Ottawa (would be less than Toronto forsure), but that might be a decent place to start. Bell has pretty poor coverage in most of the city.

I can't stress enough the importance of hiring someone that knows exactly how to accomplish what you want. We are in the early stages of rolling out fibre to several smaller condo units here in town and there are a lot of things that factor in, thing you never thought would come up. The local utilities and fibre providers can be your best friend and your worst enemy. In our case the local utility (Brantford Power) has absolutely ridiculous pricing for anything involving fibre or anything touching their poles.

If you are running residential mainly triple play is pretty much the only way to go, and the only way to see any sort of market share or profit. The average joe doesn't give a crap about how fast your fibre is, he does care about you being able to give him phone, internet and tv for much less than bell or robbers/cogeco.
--
Broadline Networks Inc.

tcan1

join:2009-09-12
reply to tcan1
Thanks for the info everyone! Will hire people for this very soon.

Thanks!


pnjunction
Teksavvy Extreme
Premium
join:2008-01-24
Toronto, ON
kudos:1

1 edit
I don't know if you're coming in here asking questions like this I hope you're not too attached to that $30 million...

Edit: If you do get this going you should build out at Bloor and St George first.


Quake110
Premium
join:2003-12-20
Ottawa, ON
reply to tcan1
Tcan1... I don't want to sound demeaning but... are you sure this is what you want to do? It sounds like you've won or got 30 millions or more and don't know what to do with that money.

In this business, you need contacts, you need people who knows what they're talking about.

IF, I stress the IF, it's true, then I hope you will succeed in this endeavour...


the_mad_hate

@anonymouse.org
reply to tcan1
it will be a stupid mistake going after resi in TO where TORONTO is pure buisnessness if you could offer say 100megs for say 30 /mo your laughing....the_mad_hater


bellhater

@anonymouse.org
reply to tcan1
my advice is to invest the 30million into lotto tickets and try to buy out bell one day


oops

@anonymouse.org
reply to tcan1
maybe smaller isps will join you


pstewart
Premium,VIP
join:2005-10-12
Peterborough, ON
kudos:1
reply to tcan1
$30 million isn't even going to complete all the planning phases for a place like Toronto - $300 million is a good start but it's not going to put a dent in everything you need.

If you told me you had $750mil in the bank (of YOUR money - not investors, no thanks) , a solid business case and a strong understanding of facilities then I'd safely assume there are several of us on here that would be interested in talking offline.... I know I would be.

But if you had that level of understanding and a solid case you wouldn't be posting on a public forum correct? Honestly, take some of your money and hire some consultants who have a lot of experience in these fields - this will help to get a better understanding of the challenges ahead.

Wish you the best of luck however...:)
--
Nexicom High Speed Internet - »www.nexicom.net/

CoverIt

join:2009-08-07
reply to tcan1
I'm not even sure what to say about this. Sounds too good to be true.

JimBee
Premium
join:2003-03-28
Renfrew, ON
reply to tcan1
LazMan: You've said some really interesting thing throughout this entertaining thread...

I've always wondered though, why wouldn't a city-run fiber ISP (like the one in Wilson NC (»www.greenlightnc.com/index/)) work out somewhere in Canada?

Wilson is a small city (47K residents) that has successfully deployed an independent, publicly owned Fiber company that provides both TV, Internet and Phone services. I believe it was the first in the United States to actually successfully roll it out...

They do offer internet-only services (but previously required customers to order at least two services).

Why wouldn't something like that work in a smaller community like, say, Kingston Ontario?

It'd obviously have to be a partnership with Utilities Kingston...

Thoughts?..

peterboro
Avatars are for posers
Premium
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON
reply to pstewart
said by pstewart:

$30 million isn't even going to complete all the planning phases for a place like Toronto -
It would go a long way here. Del Mastro can add some federal money and big grandiose plans he loves to promise.
He is Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Canadian Heritage who over sees the CRTC after all.
As you know Peterborough has been used as a test market for years.
He could hire you, purchase the PUS redundant fiber they laid, join with Rocky, start in East City and presto. I"m lit.


LazMan
Premium
join:2003-03-26
canada
reply to JimBee
Ravage - there are examples of smaller telco's doing fiber-based services in Ontario... Futureway for how not to do it, Wightman's for a pretty promising (although very early stages) one...

There are differences in the regulatory climate between Canada and the states - the local or regional PUC's have a lot more freedom south of the border, then operators do up here. CRTC mandates on the telco and TV sides make triple play (which is the only way I see to make money on a FTTH role-out, myself) next to impossible...

Utilities Kingston actually does have a pretty wide-reaching fibre network already; but it's mostly commercial/industrial, or leased out to other carriers.

Residential deployment is a dog, for a few reasons - low density makes the build capital intensive; there's low ROI (59 bucks a month takes a LONG time to recover that capital investment) and support costs for any residential service are high...