dslreports logo
site
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc

spacer




how-to block ads


Search Topic:
uniqs
12551
share rss forum feed


netboy34
Premium
join:2001-08-29
Kennesaw, GA
kudos:1

Half finished Whole Home structured re-wire

Click for full size
Cat6 Patch Panels
Click for full size
Cat6 Patch close
Click for full size
Full Panel
Click for full size
Data Switches
Click for full size
Phone Patch
Click for full size
phone patch Close
Click for full size
U-Verse Gateway
Click for full size
Conduit into panel (top)
Click for full size
Conduit (Rear, Full)
Click for full size
Conduit (Inside, Top)
Some background of the project.

Bought the house end of May, and started work on it mid June, Got married end of June and restarted mid July. paused again in August because of long work hours, and just finished to the halfway point today.

House was built in 1999 right before structured wire was common place. So this house had Cat3 wire daisy-chained from phone jack to phone jack, and old coax from each room to the opposite side of where cable would come into the house. Previous owner had dish, and they ran their own lines, so all the coax in the house is unterminated, but old. (most likely rg59 the cable in unmarked)

So begins my project. My goals are as follows:

Vertical chase from Basement to attic. - Done
Conduit to each room in the house. - 50%
Ethernet/phone to each room - 50%
RG6 Quad to every room - 0% (will pull when needed)
Wife's Office 2 Ethernet, 1 phone - 100%
My Office 8 Ethernet, 1 Phone - 0% (Office isn't done/framed yet)

Coax will be when needed because I have U-Verse TV so its running over ethernet.

All ethernet is Cat6 Phone is cat5e - All cable was free
Sorry for the orangeness of the pics, its camera phone pics and it can't do florecent well

Color Code:
Orange - Uverse outlet and the keystone jack in wall is also orange
Blue - Data (keystone is a white Cat6 under the orange jack)
Black - phone patch for now, will be gray eventually (keystones are white cat5e)
Black - PoE for the 2 access points I have (empty jacks on the top or the second cat6 panel) keystones are black

Linksys/Cisco switches do data, Netgear does only U-verse

I'm open to all suggestions.

AVonGauss
Premium
join:2007-11-01
Boynton Beach, FL

said by netboy34:

Vertical chase from Basement to attic. - Done
Conduit to each room in the house. - 50%
Ethernet/phone to each room - 50%
RG6 Quad to every room - 0% (will pull when needed)
Wife's Office 2 Ethernet, 1 phone - 100%
My Office 8 Ethernet, 1 Phone - 0% (Office isn't done/framed yet)
Smart man. (emphasis mine)


NetAdmin1
CCNA

join:2008-05-22
reply to netboy34

Are those ethernet cables coming out of the same wall box as that 110VAC outlet?
--
Kilroy was here



netboy34
Premium
join:2001-08-29
Kennesaw, GA
kudos:1

its a leviton split box, I didn't have the 4 spot quickport plate yet.

one of these guys
»www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1···Id=10053



Killa200
Premium
join:2005-12-02
Southeast TN
Reviews:
·Charter

said by netboy34:

its a leviton split box, I didn't have the 4 spot quickport plate yet.

one of these guys
»www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1···Id=10053
as a low voltage contractor i congratulate and thank you for that step. God i hate when the homeowner / sparky / tech / whoever lumps them in undivided boxes.


jeffmoss26

join:2002-07-22
Beachwood, OH
reply to netboy34

Why the separate data and uverse jacks?


mediacoretex

join:2004-11-14
Naperville, IL

I'm guessing the switch might not support jumbo frames...



netboy34
Premium
join:2001-08-29
Kennesaw, GA
kudos:1

Re: Half finished Whole Home structured re-wire�

the linksys on the left supposedly does but the tv's still freeze, so i got the netgear that is known to handle the traffic and it also makes a nice separation of data traffic and tv traffic so the server isnt battling for bandwidth since the gateway will filter out the tv info from the data switch port.�


dumbfound

join:2008-07-10
Irvington, NJ
reply to netboy34

Re: Half finished Whole Home structured re-wire

Phone is cat5e...

Are you using VOIP? unless there is a way to convert regular telephone lines to cat5e/6 lines?



netboy34
Premium
join:2001-08-29
Kennesaw, GA
kudos:1

No, as U-voice isn't in GA yet, but even still, the defacto standard in new construction around here is cat5 for everything. With the right jacks (Leviton makes some) you can use a cat5 jack for phone or network as long as it is connected the correct way. "Most" homes only get 2 lines, so it would use the inner pairs, which in this case would be the blue and green pairs, but with cat5 in place, you can go up to 4 lines if needed.

The phone patch part takes care of this for me, and helps if I need to make one of the phone ports network for some reason, all I have to do is unplug the patch to the phone board, and plug a patch into a switch.



netboy34
Premium
join:2001-08-29
Kennesaw, GA
kudos:1

Click for full size
Gateway split front
Click for full size
Gateway Split Back
Click for full size
Room Split
I finally got the 4 port quickport inserts this week, (HD and Lowes only carry the 2-port decoras) so here is a couple pictures to clear up the split box setup at the gateway and what you see in some of the rooms.


Silver1

@cox.net
reply to netboy34

im no exzpert but why would u put data next to 110 outlet.. i swore the rule was 2ft apart from any electrical source



netboy34
Premium
join:2001-08-29
Kennesaw, GA
kudos:1

If they are running horizontal to each other yes. They can be near at 90 degree angles, or for a short distance (in my case all of 3 inches) and in split boxes.



CS5W_RA

join:2009-10-05
San Diego, CA
reply to netboy34

thx for clearing that up for me... i want to do similar to my parents house but the house so old that its easier to run it underneath than tearing out the drywall


jbcg2

join:2001-09-15
Milwaukee, WI

1 edit
reply to netboy34

Yeah, this is technically correct. Split boxes look really tidy and it's convenient to have both power and network/phone/speaker terminals together. But I still avoid split boxes at almost all costs because they cause a couple of potential issues:

1) When the nearby 110v lines are under a heavy load, like for a big amp, big TV or even a vacuum cleaner, they still can cause interference in Cat5E (or even Cat6) at 1 gbps, even with meticulous cable and outlet placement. A plastic split box provides no EMI shielding. The split only serves to keep LV and HV cables somewhat separated. Thus, interference at the box can propagate throughout your entire wiring plant. Depending on what you have in your structured wiring panel it can give you fits trying to diagnose the resulting performance issues. An electrician told me that some dimmers also put weird frequencies on 110v lines that can cause EMI as well, so if one of those plugs is a lamp outlet, you have another risk.

2) When you have 110 outlets and network/phone/speaker outlets next to each other, what's likely to happen? Yep--110v power cords and LV patch cables running close together in parallel between the wall and the powered/networked devices. Again, a big EMI risk, especially at 1 gbps. Less likely to happen with some separation between boxes.

I don't use split boxes unless the client pays me extra to do them (they can be a pain to properly wire inside the wall) and signs a waiver explaining the risk. Even then I use grounded metal split boxes, which offer some EMI shielding. I can count on one hand the number of these I've done. One reasonable exception is a floor plate with combined LAN and 110v. I make sure the net cable and 110v are separated by a metal box side and they run 180 degrees away from each other for a full joist bay before they head for their respective panels.

The best solution is to put 110v and low voltage at least one stud plus 12" apart. In old work I prefer opposite sides of a bay, if possible--that's about 20" OC separated by 2 studs--because it's hard to predict where loose cable inside existing stud bays will end up relative to existing 110v cable. Also, sometimes 110v cable is run in highly unpredictable ways. How many times have I traced a 110v cable, scratched my head and wondered what the electrician was smoking when s/he came up with THIS routing!

That said, I see split boxes all the time installed by professional techs, so it's not that unusual. But the homeowner may never get the highest 1 gbps performance when they decide to upgrade in the future.

Thanks for posting this work in progress. Looks generally good, although I'd treat the Cat5E phone lines a little better (wider bend radii and mounted to studs with hook/loop straps instead of what you have), if you want the option to use them as network drops in future. Fantastic that you're using flexible plastic conduit for everything. Really protects cable and makes future pulls easier. I've never done a job with all conduit but I'd do it if I built my own house. Will be interested to see final result if you have time to post more photos.

Joey



netboy34
Premium
join:2001-08-29
Kennesaw, GA
kudos:1

Let me start with thanks for the input.

In response, with number 1, Dimmer noise is usually up stream of the dimmer (unless it is a cheapo), But I will say that you make a good point with proximity to HV. I will see if I can take better pics on how I took them away from the HV after the box.

2) This argument would have to be applied even if the boxes were separate on the wall... look at your common stereo setup in a typical house. power, speaker, video, and with bluray, xbox, ps2, etc., network all through one hole in the back of an entertainment center.

I will say I've only used two of these boxes because of space issues, and in short runs. (longest of the two the run parallel is 3 inches)

Not sure what phone line you are seeing... all the lines I did are in the conduit with an inch radius on the bend. the only wires that are not mine and not in conduit are the pre-run security system wires that the bulder put in 10 years ago and before I bought the house this year. Maybe thats what you are seeing?

Right now I'm in patch up the holes mode before Christmas guests get here this week mode. After the holidays I got two more rooms left upstairs, then to do my office in the basement. If I get my way I'm going to have another setup in the office thats is more business like and will make others on here happy for not using leviton. At least i can sastisfy both groups.


jbcg2

join:2001-09-15
Milwaukee, WI

Re dimmer noise, that's what I always thought, too, until I spoke with an electrician who was working on some 220v for me. He had done some testing during a continuing education class on structured wiring and discovered that a number of dimmers (mostly cheapo ones, as you noted) actually create interference downstream, especially at settings less than full power. He said the interference he noted probably wouldn't affect properly installed Cat6 cable (he didn't test any Cat5E), but he wouldn't take the chance in either case.

You're right re: 2), it's difficult to keep power and LV separate outside the wall. But as you'd implied earlier in the thread, the longer the distance two cables are parallel to each other the greater the inductance. Two feet offers lower risk than four feet. Add what's going on in front of the wall to what's going on behind the wall and the potential for a problem increases considerably.

What I was identifying as phone line must be the security wires. Sure wasn't done to the same standard as the rest, but of course the security guys don't usually use category cable, either.

Joey



netboy34
Premium
join:2001-08-29
Kennesaw, GA
kudos:1

yea all of them are a bunch of two wire lines to all the windows, doors, and such...



RealoRc
Premium
join:2003-01-25
Brooklyn, NY
reply to netboy34

How much would an install like this cost?



netboy34
Premium
join:2001-08-29
Kennesaw, GA
kudos:1

1 recommendation

Well since I'm doing all the work myself, I can't really give you a figure, and since everyone charges different rates, for different things, all I can give you is the material cost that has gone into it so far and even then I'm giving you if I had bought it since some of the items I had already or didn't need to pay for.

Each roll of 3/4" conduit is 25 feet at $12 a roll. I know I can get cheaper by the foot in bigger rolls, but to ship then is a bunch. So it is actually cheaper in the long run to buy them in 25 foot rolls at home depot. I'm up to 6 rolls bought and have enough to do one more room (each room takes about 12 feet One room took 1.5 because of distance through the basement, and One roll was used to go from the NID outside to the panel for phone/Uverse)

I bought one 50 foot roll of 1 1/2" for $80 shipped on ebay. normally it is about $100 just for the roll

One 1000' spool of Cat6 riser rated (can be used in conduit not requiring the in-wall rating) for $100+shipping (Already had a spool at 700 feet left so this didn't cost me... yet)

One box of 500' Cat5 riser rated for about $60 (this I bought a while back for another project and prices have fallen a ton since then. You can get 1000' for that price now)

Then I had to get drywall for patching some of the larger holes that I had to make to run the chase (1.5" conduit) and one room where I couldn't find the stud wall from the attic, so I drilled up. Luckly one of my co-workers was finishing his basement, and had some left over scraps, so I took those to use. Otherwise about $3 for a small sheet to cut up.

Then all the connectors and boxes.

Addon boxes are $1.50 a piece to allow the conduit to connect in, and I've been using them attached to the boxes the builder used for phone. I put a blank plate over the old phone box. Up to 4 used so far.
»www.broadbandutopia.com/lowvoadbr.html

In the basement I've used two of these:
»www.homedepot.com/Electrical/h_d···Id=10053
at 1.70 a pop

The panel was $100 shipped for the 42 inch
»www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibeCCtpS···te=10027

Two of the split boxes for some space issues at $3 each
»www.broadbandutopia.com/duvobo2ga.html

and the connectors for the conduit into the box
»www.broadbandutopia.com/qucosnad.html
so far 7 of these at $1 a piece

Keystone jacks were about $150 all together (cat6 is about $7 a piece, even in bulk... Cat5 was $25 for a 10 pack)

Then all the modules in the panel.

Cat6 modules 2x$48
Phone patch 1x$28
Cat5 module 1x$38
full bracket at $30
and the security brackets that I repurposed into wall mount brackets at $24 for the 6" pair (linksys/cisco switches)
and one data bracket (netgear switch) for $24

Then assorted cables for about $25 all together.

All hardware I had already (switches, etc.)

And I still have my office to build and wire up (gonna be in the basement) which will be fun and added to this thread.

So far the running cost for me right now is:

roughly $705 after shipping, tax etc.

about $1050 if I had to buy everything (including hardware)

If I were to charge labor:

each run would be $125 x 3 runs a room x 4 rooms so far will be 6 before the office which I will have about 24 runs (12 to start and use up the extra cable until I run out or reach 24) for servers, when I work on computers for people, etc. but that cost also includes cable, conenctors, etc. so if I did just runs and terminated it would be $2250

then $40 an hr for conduit, panel, config, mounting, etc. so far has been 18 hours (the chase was a PITA to find a common wall and even then they didn't line up exactly between floors that was a good 8 hours worth right there)

so add in cost of $700 for stuff (no cable, connectors, just conduit and equipment)

you would have had to pay me $3670 to do this to 4 BedRooms 1 office, 1 living room, 3 network with 1 setup as phone but can be changed over in the patch panel and setup for wired networking. Wireless add about $300 on top of that for network runs, and equipment.



netboy34
Premium
join:2001-08-29
Kennesaw, GA
kudos:1

Click for full size
Click for full size
Well now that Christmas rush is over, I've done a couple things, while not much it still is something

Conduit to each room in the house. - 70% (only one more room to go + office when I get it built)

Ethernet/phone to each room - 55% (one room just needs the phone pulled and one other room all three + Office)

My Office 12 Ethernet, 1 Phone - 4% (Office isn't framed yet, still... but I figured I'd bump up the number some on drop count) I ran Fiber from the panel over to where the office setup will be as that will be a true rack with switch and patch panel. This will keep the office separate from the house. A Fiber to Ethernet converter will be placed in the panel going directly to a switch. Since the pic I have ran more conduit on the fiber line to take it to where the rack will be in the office. I had run out when I took the pic.

I've also added the POE injectors into the panel (not mounted in pic but are now) so I now have my own wireless and don't depend on the U-verse gateway for wireless anymore.

Also added a bar to the basement, so that will be one phone and ethernet drop


Edrick
I aspire to tell the story of a lifetime
Premium
join:2004-09-11
Woburn, MA
reply to netboy34

You should just get your self a Cisco Switch with POE and Fiber Uplinks. How come you decided to run fiber to the office and then just use ethernet converters?



netboy34
Premium
join:2001-08-29
Kennesaw, GA
kudos:1

The leviton cabinet doesn't have enough space to mount a POE switch (most are at least 16 ports and large), I only needed two ports, and I also wanted some nice segmentation of networks. There will only be one converter, in the cabinet, that will feed the switch in the office directly. Another reason is that part of the conduit is fed to an access point already mounted and I just continued the conduit run from there, so pulling a smaller fiber line through made it easier and more space efficent.

I also just want to mess around with fiber



cow116
Cisco Kid
Premium
join:2003-03-10
Indianapolis, IN

said by netboy34:

I also just want to mess around with fiber
all u needed to say
--
Grambonet Networks
»cowkilla.dyndns.org/cisco