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BullVictim
@teksavvy.com

BullVictim

Anon

Rogers/Fido LCA changes: Cancel @ ECF=$0 or Get "Free" L/D!

I quoted the word "Free" in the subject line because it's not actually free L/D, it's compensation for Rogers/Fido taking something away from you, and you receiving this $0/mo L/D as compensation.

(E.G. $1M paid to someone for loss of their dominant hand ain't "Free" money by any stretch).
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

So to the backstory...

Heh, yeah, about this position that LCA (local calling area) is not part of contract(ed) services and thus changes to LCA are not a breach of contract by Rogers/Fido...

In other places (and here at DSLR too) some have presented the notion that the LCA is not part of "The Contract" (which itself is a bit of a misnomer since "The Contract" is comprised of the ToS, additional "Materials", and anything offered by a Rogers/Fido rep + accepted by the customer over the phone {a verbal component/modification of "The Contract"} as long as the latter two items do not conflict with the ToS).

(The CWTA Code of {mis}Conduct {CoC}, though not formally part of "The Contract", may well one day be held by a court of competent jurisdiction as also being a part of "The Contract", in no small part because of both Rog and Fido (+ Bell et al) signed onto the thing by way of the CWTA Board of Directors {where Rogers is the Chair of the BoD via Ken Engelhart who is RCI's Vice President @ Regulatory Affairs, and RCI has another BoD seat as well} and where the CoC itself conveys that the undersigned carriers "promise" some things, esp re 30-days for customers to choose to decline "unfavourable changes" to a contract or cancel their contract with ECF=$0 in response to such "unfavourable changes").

Back to topic: Swine-shampoo! I say (to whose who think the LCA is not part of "The Contract") for this reason:

You *contracted* with Rogers/Fido for cellular service that gave you access to certain calling areaS (note plural) where only local (or airtime) minutes would be charged, or deducted from your monthly 'bucket'. If thereafter the areas you can call using only those minutes (and not incurring L/D charges) is shrunk (or even just changed) there has been made a material, unfavourable change to the services provided under the terms of your contract.

And, well, that's exactly what has happened (effective Oct 15 for Toronto area, other areas already have been changed and/or shall change later; see: »www.rogers.com/web/conte ··· _calling ).

Over on HoFo there's been much debate over the matter, and with some encouragement for customers to seek some sort of $0/mo remedy, esp by a noisy (or is that noisome ; ) member by the name of BellVictim, and also TorontoAlex09.

There are now trickling in reports of people achieving the following as remedy for Rogers' (Fido's, too) attempt to breach "The Contract":
- $0/mo for 1,000 Cda-wide L/D minutes for remainder of contract duration (pretty easy to get, actually)
- $0/mo Canada-wide L/D for remainder of contract duration (harder to get - more haggling/escalation)
- cancel contract with ECF=$0 (ECF=early cancel fee) (difficult to get but feasible; you'll have to be tough & persistent)
- (Net yet seen or attempted AFAICT, but reasonable to demand) cancel contract with ECF=$0 AND PORT YOUR CELL NUMBER TO DIFFERENT CARRIER

If you'd like to opine here on the matter might I respectfully suggest you read through the entirety of at least this thread:
    »www.howardforums.com/sho ··· =1572104
since much of the debate has already taken place and rehashing and resmashing unsound positions can hopefully be avoided.

To reiterate:
Yes! you can get $0/mo for 1,000 Cda-wide L/D minutes per month, from Rogers/Fido, as compensation for their changing the LCA.
    -or-
Yes! you can get $0/mo Cda-wide L/D, from Rogers/Fido, as compensation for their changing the LCA.
    -or-
Yes! you can use Rogers'/Fido's attempt to breach a contract of their very own composition (i.e. their changing the LCA) as a get-out-of-contract @ ECF=$0 card. You seem to be able to either keep the discounted phone you bought (and forgo the purchase price you paid for it at contract's inception) or return phone to Rogers/Fido and get that initial price paid back to you.

Fido too. (see: »www.redflagdeals.com/for ··· count=42 )

But you have limited time to do this, unless you really want to get into legalese with the carriers. (Rogers & Fido appear to have blundered their legal responsibilities of this notification in various ways; see: »www.howardforums.com/sho ··· =1571424 )

Like I say, if you want to discuss this issue further here please spend the (admittedly, not inconsiderable amount of) time to read those other threads, esp the first one (HoFo:\\ ... t=1572104).

Assistance may be available here if you evince that you've done the legwork on your end, first, and are not able to get satisfaction from Rog/Fido on your own.

If you attempt to seek remedy from Rogers/Fido please post back with how it turned out for you so that others may learn or be further encouraged.

Other cites:
Rogers' ToS: »your.rogers.com/about/le ··· _Eng.pdf

Fido ToS: »fido.ca/web/content/term ··· nditions

CWTA CoC: »www.cwta.ca/CWTASite/eng ··· uct.html

RFD discussions:
»www.redflagdeals.com/for ··· t=781580
»www.redflagdeals.com/for ··· t=780457

HoFo discussions:
(!) »www.howardforums.com/sho ··· =1572104
»www.howardforums.com/sho ··· =1563087
»www.howardforums.com/sho ··· =1566395
CoverIt
join:2009-08-07

2 edits

CoverIt

Member

Couple of things,

Yes you can get free LD

And a memo was issued. If people want to get rid of the ECF they also get there entire line cancelled that had the contract on it so that means you lose your number. And you can't sign back up for 3 months if at all.

You can't do both. Cancelled your contract @ $0 ECF and port out it's one or the other.

if you port out it's ECF charged as normal.
if you get your contract cancelled, the line is cancelled and the number goes back to the pool or the org. provider.

Once you cancel you can't port out.

Snickerdo3
Premium Member
join:2001-02-28
Niagara Falls, ON

Snickerdo3

Premium Member

said by CoverIt:

You can't do both. Cancelled your contract @ $0 ECF and port out it's one or the other.
if you port out it's ECF charged as normal.
Rogers can claim you can't do that, but people will do it anyway, Rogers will try to charge the ECF, it will be fought, and Rogers will lose. Whether the number is ported or not has zero impact on the cancellation of the contract. Rogers doesn't have a say.
Robrr
join:2008-04-19

Robrr to CoverIt

Member

to CoverIt
They may actually consider not resigning you???

That's kinda funny that rogers would get that upset about cancelling.
CoverIt
join:2009-08-07

CoverIt to Snickerdo3

Member

to Snickerdo3
said by Snickerdo3:

said by CoverIt:

You can't do both. Cancelled your contract @ $0 ECF and port out it's one or the other.
if you port out it's ECF charged as normal.
Rogers can claim you can't do that, but people will do it anyway, Rogers will try to charge the ECF, it will be fought, and Rogers will lose. Whether the number is ported or not has zero impact on the cancellation of the contract. Rogers doesn't have a say.
yes they do. You want to leave ECF free you need to tell them. you port out no one tells them and the line is done.

Thanks man i work there I know how it goes. Port out requests get a account cancelled right away and if you have a contracted you get ECF'd.

Snickerdo3
Premium Member
join:2001-02-28
Niagara Falls, ON

Snickerdo3

Premium Member

said by CoverIt:

yes they do. You want to leave ECF free you need to tell them. you port out no one tells them and the line is done.
Thanks man i work there I know how it goes. Port out requests get a account cancelled right away and if you have a contracted you get ECF'd.
You miss the point entirely. You don't need to call in first if they levy an ECF. The fact that the contract has been changed is enough to make the contract - and in turn the ability to charge an ECF - void. You don't have to tell Rogers beforehand. You could port out, Rogers could process the cancellation and charge the ECF, and you could then call in to Rogers after the ECF has been charged and demand that the fee has been waived due to a material item in the contract being changed without your consent. If Rogers doesn't waive the charge, you have every right to take legal action, charge Rogers for any legal fees you incur and you'd quite easily win.

dirtyjeffer0
Posers don't use avatars.
Premium Member
join:2002-02-21
London, ON

dirtyjeffer0 to BullVictim

Premium Member

to BullVictim
this is a strange move by Rogers...if you are compensating customers by giving them free LD, then why bother changing the LCA's in the first place??...i suppose that way it only affects new customers, but that doesn't seem like a good "selling feature" when trying to attract new business...and while Rogers is the only one to change it's LCA's, history shows us that the others will probably follow suit...Rogers already had the highest ARPU in Canada and they have consistently been finishing tops in subscriber additions...this is a very strange move...Ted is rolling in his grave as we speak.

Snickerdo3
Premium Member
join:2001-02-28
Niagara Falls, ON

Snickerdo3

Premium Member

Actually jeffer, Rogers is switching their LCAs to match the same as what Bellus already has. My understanding, based on researching this further, is that Rogers is now going to charge you LD for incoming calls outside your home LCA. I assumed this is what they always had done - everyone else does, and Fido even used to do that. Rogers is just changing their service to be the same as everyone else. The LCAs, as far as I can see from the maps, are still larger the the LCAs for wireline subscribers, at least in the Niagara Region.

Despite this, it still doesn't change the fact that these changes a material change in service and that, as a result, the contract Rogers and the subscriber entered into is void. It doesn't matter if you call in first, port your number, whatever. The contract is void, and will remain void until Rogers and the subscribers enter into a new contract. So long as you don't renew your contract, you could technically get out of this even a year from now.

dirtyjeffer0
Posers don't use avatars.
Premium Member
join:2002-02-21
London, ON

dirtyjeffer0

Premium Member

i don't think so...i can't seem to find the link right now, but when i looked at the "new" LCA for London, it has been divided into two sections, yellow for the main city and red for the surrounding area...before, you could make or receive calls within these areas without LD...now, you can receive a call anywhere in these areas without LD (so, no change), but if you call anywhere in the surrounding areas (excluding back to the yellow area, which is the city of London itself), you will now be charged for LD...i will agree though, i still don't know if i understand the changes yet.

Snickerdo3
Premium Member
join:2001-02-28
Niagara Falls, ON

Snickerdo3

Premium Member

said by dirtyjeffer0:

i don't think so...i can't seem to find the link right now, but when i looked at the "new" LCA for London, it has been divided into two sections, yellow for the main city and red for the surrounding area...before, you could make or receive calls within these areas without LD...now, you can receive a call anywhere in these areas without LD (so, no change), but if you call anywhere in the surrounding areas (excluding back to the yellow area, which is the city of London itself), you will now be charged for LD...i will agree though, i still don't know if i understand the changes yet.
I thought the same thing, but it appears that it isn't the case. The entire yellow/red area is your home LCA. The difference is that the yellow area is your "home" rate centre (as far as Rogers is concerned), the red is the neighbouring calling area. People in the red area can still call you and you don't pay LD as long as you're anywhere inside the red/yellow area, and you can still call anywhere in the red/yellow area and have it be a local call.

Now, I'm not jumping out and saying you're wrong because these changes are beyond confusing, but if what you said is true, that would make Welland, Fonthill, Port Colborne and Fort Erie long distance from St. Catharines on a cell. They're all local calls on a landline. You would see everyone in the Niagara Region cancel Rogers cells en masse if that's truly the case. That is also not the case with Bellus cells or anything like that.

What I think they did was shrink the calling areas a bit and incoming calls when outside of your yellow/red LCA are now long distance. That has always been the case with other providers, I always thought it was the case with Rogers too, but apparently they're just changing this now.

elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium Member
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in

elwoodblues to BullVictim

Premium Member

to BullVictim
What a shame, my contract expired in May, just waiting to see what Globalive has to offer, and I have it on good authority that Telus will be rolling out GSM by November.

Neighbour had one of their pay as you go phones, and I discovered it was a GSM phone.. so it looks like they are already in the thick of it.

BullVictim
@teksavvy.com

BullVictim to CoverIt

Anon

to CoverIt
said by CoverIt:

Couple of things,

Yes you can get free LD

And a memo was issued. If people want to get rid of the ECF they also get there entire line cancelled that had the contract on it so that means you lose your number. And you can't sign back up for 3 months if at all.

You can't do both. Cancelled your contract @ $0 ECF and port out it's one or the other.
Well, Rogers can put out memos about whatever they want, but FWICT they don't seem to be affirmatively stepping up to the plate, if you will, to apprise agents of /all/ the rights which a cx has in this matter.

Rogers' memos are not law!
Once you cancel you can't port out.
IIRC there have been some saying other, 'definitive' things about what remedies a cx could receive and those remedies seem to have grown when challenged.

I strongly believe this porting + ECF=$0 prohibition is one that merely needs to be challenged by a knowledgeable, tenacious cx before it too shall wither.

Like the cancel @ ECF=$0 was initially said to be not available.
BullVictim

BullVictim to CoverIt

Anon

to CoverIt
said by CoverIt:

said by Snickerdo3:

Rogers can claim you can't do that [PORT + cancel @ ECF=$0], but people will do it anyway, Rogers will try to charge the ECF, it will be fought, and Rogers will lose. Whether the number is ported or not has zero impact on the cancellation of the contract. Rogers doesn't have a say.
yes they do. You want to leave ECF free you need to tell them.
+concur

What we're debating here, perhaps, is *when* you tell them.
[if] you port out no one tells them [this PORTING was done due to change to local calling area] and the line is done.

Thanks man i work there I know how it goes. Port out requests get a account cancelled right away and if you have a contracted you get ECF'd.
Again, this may be the way that the Rogers system is setup, but that doesn't make it (tested) law.

Snickerdo3
Premium Member
join:2001-02-28
Niagara Falls, ON

Snickerdo3 to BullVictim

Premium Member

to BullVictim
said by BullVictim :

I strongly believe this porting + ECF=$0 prohibition is one that merely needs to be challenged by a knowledgeable, tenacious cx before it too shall wither.
Of course you can. There has been a material change in the contract, it is therefore now VOID. You could technically cancel any time between now and the time you renew the contract and can not be legally held to any sort of ECF, because the contract no longer exists. Everyone who now has a Rogers contract will be contract free when this comes into effect.

Rogers really shot themselves in the foot. This is the absolute worst timing for them to pull something like this with all the new entrants due to go live soon.

Its a Secret
Please speak into the microphone
Premium Member
join:2008-02-23
Da wet coast

Its a Secret to BullVictim

Premium Member

to BullVictim
I called in to inquire (not complain) about the new LCA changes in my area according to the map that Roger's published for it's customers. The CSR verified it did not match the map they had been given on their intranet.

As a result, I was offered an old retention plan for 1000 CDN LD minutes per month for $5. Forever. Contract or no contract.

I've consistently have had great service from Roger's, and this is no exception. Kudos to that rep for his exceptional service.

BullVictim
@teksavvy.com

BullVictim to Snickerdo3

Anon

to Snickerdo3
said by Snickerdo3:

Of course you can. There has been a material change in the contract, it is therefore now VOID. You could technically cancel any time between now and the time you renew the contract and can not be legally held to any sort of ECF, because the contract no longer exists. Everyone who now has a Rogers contract will be contract free when this comes into effect.
Not as I understand it.

The ToS say a cx has 30 days to cancel if "SERVICES" change; the CoC says 30 days too (and adds ECF=$0 clause). Otherwise (the inference is) the cx has accepted/acceded_to such changes.

I will say though, that Rogers' bumbling of notifying of *ALL* their customers of *ALL* the LCA's does leave the (time) window wide open until they notify all customers of all Local Calling Area changes.

Further bumbling is that IMO Rogers has not *adequately* notified cx's of the changes - the yellow/red map (re Toronto changes) is woefully deficient. IMO insufficient/incomplete notice = no notice.

But those are two 'unconventional warfare' (difficult/tricky/not_clear?) avenues to pursue.

Officially (though perhaps only superficially) by Oct 15 most people's *easy* right to decline changes or seek remedy for changes to Toronto local calling areas will have lapsed.

This thread well details the bumbling in terms of how Rogers has notified cx's:
»www.howardforums.com/sho ··· =1571424
(esp post #1 and post #10).
Rogers really shot themselves in the foot. This is the absolute worst timing for them to pull something like this with all the new entrants due to go live soon.
Actually, IMO this is the *second*-worst timing.

Had Rogers waited until after all the new carriers are live then people who seek to cancel would have had more choices of where to move to, than if the cx is forced to make the cancel decision today.

It's just a shame that instead of choosing to "align" (shrink) their local calling boundaries to match their competitors (the proverbial race to the bottom: »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra ··· e_bottom ) Rogers COULD have used their larger LCA's as a marketing/advertising tool:
- 100% Cdn-based call-centers
- better signal than all competitors
- fewest dropped calls
- faster data than all competitors
- LARGEST LOCAL CALLING AREAS of all carriers

It's sorta stupid, in a way. One day, maybe soon, Cda will have national calling like in the USA and thus Rogers, with their larger local calling areas, is already part-way there. So they've chosen to 'regress', even though undoing this regression and then later progressing (to one-rate national calling) is, IMO, inevitable.
BullVictim

BullVictim to Snickerdo3

Anon

to Snickerdo3
said by Snickerdo3:

You miss the point entirely. You don't need to call in first if they levy an ECF.
That may or not be true, IMO. At best it'll be sticky and cx will win. At (unexpected!) worst cx will lose and have to pay ECF - explained more more.
The fact that the contract has been changed is enough to make the contract - and in turn the ability to charge an ECF - void.
+concur
You don't have to tell Rogers beforehand.
IMO this is the part that's in a grey area.

Here's how I'd speculate it would be arbitrated (since, officially, arbitration is the only 'legal' remedy available to many cx's to resolve disputes - see Rogers' ToS s.34 & s.35 (elsewhere it's been incorrectly identified as s.33 & s.34).

If Rogers breaches (or notifies cx of Rogers' [intent] to breach) the original contract then can the breached party just start implementing a remedy of their choosing or should the cx attempt to first negotiate some remedy with Rogers first?

Cx /may/ be able to do the latter, but if it came to a poopfight it sure looks better on the cx if they can evince that they tried to negotiate a remedy with Rogers versus just unilaterally implementing one of their own choosing.

The reason that, IMO, one needs to (or simply should) speak to Rogers about the remedy you might seek (ECF@$0) in advance of porting out is this:
- Rogers has 2 things they can give you to 100% remedy/compensate this impending breach (via changed local calling areas)
--A) Cda-wide L/D @ $0/mo for contract term, or
--B) Cancel @ ECF=$0

If Rogers never offers remedy A then you have right to effect remedy B and be caused as little hardship or inconvenience as possible in its implementation because Rogers is attempting to modify the contract mid-term without your consent (impending breach).

If Rogers offers remedy A then you /may/ have no right to 'escalate' to remedy B, since remedy A ostensibly covers all possible negative impacts of the impending breach. Grey area there too, IMO.

But if you *unilaterally* implement remedy B Rogers can come back and say "Hey, wait a sec, we'd have offered the cx remedy A if they had only given us a chance to work this out".

This /might/ move your rightfulness (to ECF=$0 + PORT number) from being a clearly-white case area into a grey area.

Then again it's Rogers who are attempting to unilaterally change contract so you may not 'owe' them any opportunity to present a choice of remedies and may have the unequivocal right to unilaterally seek a fair and reasonable remedy of your own choosing.

Note that remedy B is provided per the CWTA CoC - not officially part of contract but a cx can, IMO, reasonably argue they read that and knew that right and so then perhaps they can unilaterally implemented it without notice or negotiation with Rogers, in advance of implementation. CoC says nothing of the matter of porting numbers, nor of the customer having to give advance notice to Rogers of that (cancel @ ECF=$0) being a remedy they would seek.

(In the end *appearing* to have made all reasonable attempts to negotiate a solution just plain *looks good* on any party to a disputed or breached contract, if it goes to be 'judged' or adjudicated thereupon. Appearances /do/ matter.)
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

So here's how I would tackle things if I were to want to cancel @ ECF=$0 *and* want to PORT my number, too.

##1) Contract Rogers and get confirmation that they agree you have the right to cancel @ ECF=$0 due to (impending) breach of contract. Tell rep thank you for the info, you need to think about it before you make any final decision about what you want to do here. Avoid talking about $0/mo L/D freebies or simply say you don't that suitable and see if rep will then get back to talking about cancel @ ECF=$0 as the correct remedy for *you*. Have the rep note on your account that cancel@ECF=$0 was discussed with cx and offered AND HAVE THE REP READ YOU BACK THEIR NOTES before ending the call.

If Rogers' rep says *nothing* about Rogers not-gonna-let-you-port-number-if-you-cancel@ECF=$0 during the call, perfect.

If Rogers' rep *does* says something about Rogers not-gonna-let-you-port-number during the call disagree with the rep ("I'd like to have it noted that I formally dispute Rogers' claim that I have no right to porting my number if I cancel @ECF=$0 due to Rogers' impending contractual breach").

Record the call if possible, or have someone else on the line listening in (someone who would appear at an arbitration hearing if necessary). Have them make notes on the substance of the call when it's done, right away. You too, make notes.

##2) So then you call the new carrier and initiate the porting process. Maybe call late in the day ... you're wanting to stage your actions here, carefully, one after the other.

By the end of the call you are now legally bound to a new contract with new carrier, and you entered that new contract on the predicate that you can port your number.

Ask rep of new_carrier when Rogers will be notified about Rogers losing that number. Rep probably won't know with certainty but ask anyway.

Record call, etc.

##3) Next day contract Rogers and implement the cancel @ ECF=$0, effective, say, 7 days hence (i.e. 1 or 2 days after the PORTING should have taken effect ... how long does a port take to become implemented, anyway?). Indicate that you have entered a new contract with another carrier and that your number with Rogers shall be ported to new carrier and this whole process is already a fait accompli - you cannot undo your new contract nor can you undo the port request. The die is cast.

Rogers will bleat "Waaaaaaaahhhhhhhh, you can't do that [PORTING of number]". Ask them why not. They'll mumble and bumble some response (if they say that's what it says in their memo tell them you laugh at, point at and mock their memo ; ) Tell them either a)you were never told you couldn't do that (in conjunction with cancel @ ECF=$0) or b)(if you were told that you can't) that you dispute that Rogers has the right to *prevent* you porting the number. (Don't lie!)

Tell them you are moving away from Rogers because of their (impending) breach and that you believe that you should be harmed or inconvenienced AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE as you seek to implement a remedy to this breach - that means you keep the number since losing the number amounts to harm or inconvenience to you.

AIUI there are no stipulations re porting under normal cancellation terms (i.e. if a customer is under contract normally cx would just pay ECF if they PORTED away from Rogers).

Regular rules (restrictions of the contract) don't apply here (e.g. paying ECF), because of *Rogers' impending breach*. Evidence of this is that Rogers will try (or prefer) to implement the cancellation right away which is not something for which the ToS would normally provide (normally you have to give Rog 30 days notice, or Rog has to give you 30 days notice [ToS s.31], in addition to the waiving of all ECF fees ... so we have definitely exceptional circumstances here which Rogers obviously recognizes this based on their willingness to cancel @ notice=0 days *AND* ECF=$0.

YOU DO NOT LOSE YOUR INHERENT RIGHT TO PORT YOUR NUMBER SIMPLY BECAUSE ROGERS IS ABOUT TO BREACH CONTRACT AND YOU ARE RESPONDING TO SAID BREACH BY INVOKING YOUR RIGHT TO CANCEL CONTRACT @ ECF=$0 (i.e. IN RESPONSE TO THIS IMPENDING BREACH)!

IMO, anyway.

Rogers may 'try' to implement the cancel that very day (and lock or hold your phone number or prevent it from becoming ported) BUT DON'T LET THEM. If they're willing to let you cancel with as little as 0 days notice at your request then it's reasonable for *you* to want that cancel to become implemented 7 or whatever reasonable number of days ahead that are needed for the PORT-number request to consummate. Since it's Rogers who are breaching it is *YOU* who gets to pick the cancel date, not them. You call the shots here, not Rogers. Roger is the bad (breaching) party in the contract - they're the ones trying to breach. You are entitled to implement your reasonable exit or remedy without Rogers impairing or impeding your seeking this remedy, or causing you any other inconvenience or hardship as you implement this REMEDY TO ROGERS' CONTRACTUAL BREACH.

Rogers may say they can't have the cancel take effect in 7 or whatever. Say "Fine Rogers, do nothing about my account today and I'll call in in 7 days (or within a day or 2 of the PORT having been consummated) to have the cancel take effect that given day." ... just like Rogers would let you have it take effect that day that you're talking to them about all this.

Have all this noted on your account, have rep read back notes, record call, make your own notes, get rep's name and operator ID and call reference number ... and hat size too if you can ; )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

But it may be a stinkfight. If Rogers is not cooperative then say that you'd like to formally initiate a request for arbitration on the matter. If the rep says you have to *mail* notice to them for such a request ask the rep where in the ToS it says that - it doesn't. In fact the ToS indicate that you can contact rogers via *611, 888-ROGERS-1, etc. Note that s.41 of ToS *does* say that notices of "claim" need to be mailed to 333 Bloor but I would think that a request to have a dispute resolved by arbitration is not a "claim" so a verbal notice, to a rep who is otherwise empowered to make changes to the contract(ed service) would suffice. But mail it if you want to be 1,000% sure.

Ask when you can expect Rogers to mail you the notice of arbitration protocol (see here: »www.rogers.com/web/conte ··· protocol ) as well as the list of retired judges from which you *may* elect to select the arbitrator for your case.

(You, as cx, get to pick the arbitrator [per "arbitration-protocol"] so maybe you'd like to have someone from expensive [and highly-respected law firm {oxymoron?}] McCarthy Tétrault handle the arbitration since they do handle arbitration, including for telecom matters: »www.mccarthy.ca/expertis ··· x?id=108 ).

Gowlings also does arbitration: »www.gowlings.com/ADR/

These cats ain't cheap, but the "arbitration-protocol" specifies that Rogers pays the arbitration costs. (If your adversary is gonna pay the tab are you havin' meatloaf, or steak? : )

But simply by your asking for when you can expect to receive this info from Rogers you're conveying that you know something of your rights under arbitration and the process, and that you're serious about all this.

BTW, if you do wish to choose your own arbitrator (i.e. not select one from the list Rogers provides you) make sure the firm isn't already in bed with Rogers or its affiliated companies, or at least insist on the construction of a Chinese wall ( »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch ··· ese_wall ) around your matter.

There's probably a Society of Arbitrators or similar, who would have a list from which you could too choose.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

In the end (and for the aforementioned reasons) this is the way I see the big picture:
- Rogers is (intending to be) breaching a contract of their own construction
- You therefore have a right to exit contract with as little hardship as possible
- Rogers' refusal to let you port number does not give them any $ value back, nor is such a port worth any $ outright so it's not a substantial "benefit" (people who are harmed by a breach contract generally don't get *more* than they would have, had the breach not taken place)
- Rogers' refusal to let you port could well be seen as Rogers trying to impair your attempt to seek a remedy which is otherwise your lawful right
- Therefore Rogers' refusal to let you PORT your number can be seen as simply malicious or retaliatory since your Ph# has no value to Rogers, only to you, and porting costs Rogers no substantial amount of anything
- This would again look bad on Rog if it went to arbitration - big companies 'retaliating' against wee cx's is rather frowned upon

Ergo: IMO you have a right to port your number away from Rogers concomitant with implementing cancel @ ECF=$0, and if Rogers attempts to impede you in anyway in that PORTING it'll look really, really bad on them and you ought seek remedy via arbitration (or court).
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
You could port out, Rogers could process the cancellation and charge the ECF, and you could then call in to Rogers after the ECF has been charged and demand that the fee has been waived due to a material item in the contract being changed without your consent. If Rogers doesn't waive the charge, you have every right to take legal action, charge Rogers for any legal fees you incur and you'd quite easily win.
About recouping legal fees, it's very, very rare that someone gets 100% of legal fees awarded - AIUI the general formula is for some percentage - maybe 50% or 66% or something, and only then if 100% of one's position is supported by the final court decision.

And do note the ToS re arbitration as the sole remedy (of course subject to superceding rights that some provinces seem to have in place about abdicating one's right to legal remedy vs arbitration - maybe Quebec, maybe Ontario?)

But if you went to court and had expenses and it was over Rogers refusal to let you port your number and Rogers refusal was seen as heavy-handed/malicious and/or retaliatory you;d have a better chance at 100% costs paid.

FWICT Rogers cannot justify, in any way, refusing someone the right to PORT number in conjunction with ECF=$0.

green1074
Premium Member
join:2001-10-25
Scarborough, ON

green1074 to Snickerdo3

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to Snickerdo3
said by Snickerdo3:

Actually jeffer, Rogers is switching their LCAs to match the same as what Bellus already has. My understanding, based on researching this further, is that Rogers is now going to charge you LD for incoming calls outside your home LCA. I assumed this is what they always had done - everyone else does, and Fido even used to do that. Rogers is just changing their service to be the same as everyone else. The LCAs, as far as I can see from the maps, are still larger the the LCAs for wireline subscribers, at least in the Niagara Region.

This is not the case in Toronto. Our local calling area is now shrinking to a point where it makes no sense. Bellus, at the bare minimum offer the same local calling area as your home phone - something that makes sense. With this new LCA, it will be long distance for people living in Pickering to make calls to places 15 minutes away. While with Bellus or a homephone service, there would be no such charge. This is absolutely ridiculous. I work for this company and I can't think of any positioning where I can justify this action to a customer.

dirtyjeffer0
Posers don't use avatars.
Premium Member
join:2002-02-21
London, ON

dirtyjeffer0

Premium Member

yea, even if it isn't going to make a difference to most people, the optics alone aren't good, especially with new entrants and the Bellus HSPA right around the corner.
CoverIt
join:2009-08-07

CoverIt to elwoodblues

Member

to elwoodblues
said by elwoodblues:

What a shame, my contract expired in May, just waiting to see what Globalive has to offer, and I have it on good authority that Telus will be rolling out GSM by November.

Neighbour had one of their pay as you go phones, and I discovered it was a GSM phone.. so it looks like they are already in the thick of it.
Really interesting because I know for a fact they are not going GSM. They are going HSPA and unless you have a 3G phone it will not work on HSPA.

Your good authority isn't very good afterall.
CoverIt

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To get rid of the ECF you need to call and tell them you are unhappy with the LCA. And they will go ahead and cancel your line and reverse the ECF. Done Once a line is cancelled you cannot port it as you don't own the number anymore. Every provider will tell you this.

If you port out, then you are breaking the contract so the ECF is charged. You didn't make them aware why you were leaving you just left. Most of the time within 5mins of requesting a port it's done and the org line is cancelled. Also if you call and say you want to cancel the account in the 30 required days you also can't port out. This is the same for all providers.

So if you follow what he said above

If you do ##2 by the time you get off the phone the number will be ported already. When you attempt to do ##3 they will tell you it's already cancelled per a port out request you did in ##2

You can't tell them you are leaving for an impending breach because you already breached it yourself by porting out above.

No matter what the two people above tell you. You will not get a $0 ECF if you port out.

Snickerdo3
Premium Member
join:2001-02-28
Niagara Falls, ON

Snickerdo3 to BullVictim

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I just remembered that I have a phone sitting on the lowest possible plan for the purposes of call forwarding to my new line. It's on a contract. I don't need it anymore, this sounds like a most excellent way to cancel that line once and for all without any ECF.

Its a Secret
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Da wet coast

Its a Secret

Premium Member

I guess that'll test a theory or two that have been mentioned... Good luck!

BullVictim
@teksavvy.com

BullVictim to CoverIt

Anon

to CoverIt
said by CoverIt:

No matter what the two people above tell you. You will not get a $0 ECF if you port out.
I would absolutely love to see someone try.

And take it to arbitration.

Is Rogers going to really spend at least $1K - $2K to fight you from keeping your number, especially when it's of no $ to them and such a fight would positively smack of retaliation?

Simple: Rogers should not have attempted to breach contract if they want to hit people up for ECF. IOW don't breach your own contract!

If someone does go this route please report back and let us know how it turned out!
BullVictim

BullVictim to Snickerdo3

Anon

to Snickerdo3
said by Snickerdo3:

this sounds like a most excellent way to cancel that line once and for all without any ECF.
Yep, give it a whirl. The joy begins with a call to 888-ROGERS-2. Call after 9am on Monday so you can get Retentions, since they are not open Sundays.

Let us know how you fare if you try.

Thx!

Snickerdo3
Premium Member
join:2001-02-28
Niagara Falls, ON

Snickerdo3 to green1074

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to green1074
said by green1074:

This is not the case in Toronto. Our local calling area is now shrinking to a point where it makes no sense. Bellus, at the bare minimum offer the same local calling area as your home phone - something that makes sense. With this new LCA, it will be long distance for people living in Pickering to make calls to places 15 minutes away. While with Bellus or a homephone service, there would be no such charge. This is absolutely ridiculous. I work for this company and I can't think of any positioning where I can justify this action to a customer.
Yeah, this is going to piss off a lot of people who work in St. Catharines with St. Catharines cell phone numbers but live in Fonthill or Welland. What in the fuck were they thinking? This is something that needs to get out into the media.

Its a Secret
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Da wet coast

Its a Secret to Snickerdo3

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to Snickerdo3
Snick, the only thing you may want to consider at this point is, until the date of the LCA occurs, this is only a potential breach. It hasn't happened yet, and Roger's may change it depending on the backlash they get from people.

BullVictim
@teksavvy.com

BullVictim

Anon

said by Its a Secret:

Snick, the only thing you may want to consider at this point is, until the date of the LCA occurs, this is only a potential breach. It hasn't happened yet, and Roger's may change it depending on the backlash they get from people.
They may ... but your rights to remedy, per both ToS and CoC, are limited to 30 days from date you were notified.

So IMO this notice-of-intent-to-breach can be treated as identical to a breach having already taken place because if the cx were to have to wait for the actual breach to occur the cx's right to decline change to SERVICES (a right in the ToS and CoC) or effect remedy of ECF=$0 (per CoC) will have lapsed past the 30-day limit.

I.E. If you wait until breach actually occurs your 30 days will likely have elapsed and technically you'll have accepted/acceded_to the changes and have no recourse left.

Its a Secret
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Da wet coast

Its a Secret

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Good point.

Snickerdo3
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join:2001-02-28
Niagara Falls, ON

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I haven't been officially notified. Has anyone been officially notified?