[ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue in World of Warcraft

[ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue in World of Warcraft http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r23095461 en Wed, 10 Feb 2010 07:11:09 EDT Wed, 10 Feb 2010 07:11:09 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23473430 Critsmcgee : Even though Hunger for blood gut cut down to 10% from 15% im still confident that mutilate is competitive. before it was like my DPS would leap up to 10k. Now it will hit 9k pretty quick but i have to push it past 10. Still, it is the highest single target DPS spec imo.
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Coffee, Tea, SEGA!!!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23473430 Fri, 11 Dec 2009 10:41:27 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23473246 anon : As a mutilate rogue (yet to respec to try new tweaks) I'm loving the patch and the buff we got.. 9.2k on gormok 25man but with equally geared mages I don't think it was that out of line they were right up there with me..out of the 4 pure dps specs hunters seem to consitently be bottom when equally geared any one else notice this]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23473246 Fri, 11 Dec 2009 10:24:07 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23470287 Azdranax : No access from work :(

I'll check it out later. Thanks.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23470287 Thu, 10 Dec 2009 17:16:13 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23470166 Critsmcgee : Lithios - Shadowmoon

Check my spec i just copied it with Talented
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Coffee, Tea, SEGA!!!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23470166 Thu, 10 Dec 2009 16:52:32 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23470133 Azdranax : Crits, did you spec to 4/5 Improved and 1/3 vile?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23470133 Thu, 10 Dec 2009 16:45:35 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23469950 Critsmcgee : Combat spec is OP also. Last night as combat i did about 10.5k overall in 25 man Anub. Over 3million damage done to anub alone. Hello 258 tier helm!
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Coffee, Tea, SEGA!!!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23469950 Thu, 10 Dec 2009 16:12:51 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23469827 Azdranax : Combat is Eviscerate only, Mutilate is Envenom only - no exceptions.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23469827 Thu, 10 Dec 2009 15:52:14 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23469796 Ibezombie :

said by Azdranax

:

Ibe, if you are properly specced in Mutilate, envenom no longer clears deadly poison stacks, so yes you should be using envenom. Mine is critting for 16-17k in 10 man right now, plus it refreshes your SnD buff, so you never waste a combo point using envenom.

We'll have to wait and see how the poison change goes, but right now rogues are very OP, especially single-target. Since a lot of the mechanics of the current raid content is adds, rotating, etc., I'm hoping Blizz doesn't nerf it. I say this because our primary ability is in delivering damage first and foremost, we should be top dps, but of course I am biased.

To the OP point though, the only 10 man raid I could find late last night was Ony, and pulled 12k for the fight in Mutilate (actually re-specced and swapped 5/5 relentless strikes for 5/5 CQC and 3/3 for 10% melee haste, 51/18/2 - dps dummy test versus cookie cutter spec was very similar), so the OP QQ by other classes is pretty much warranted, so enjoy it while it lasts.

I'm a combat rogue]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23469796 Thu, 10 Dec 2009 15:46:42 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23469776 Azdranax : Ibe, if you are properly specced in Mutilate, envenom no longer clears deadly poison stacks, so yes you should be using envenom. Mine is critting for 16-17k in 10 man right now, plus it refreshes your SnD buff, so you never waste a combo point using envenom.

We'll have to wait and see how the poison change goes, but right now rogues are very OP, especially single-target. Since a lot of the mechanics of the current raid content is adds, rotating, etc., I'm hoping Blizz doesn't nerf it. I say this because our primary ability is in delivering damage first and foremost, we should be top dps, but of course I am biased.

To the OP point though, the only 10 man raid I could find late last night was Ony, and pulled 12k for the fight in Mutilate (actually re-specced and swapped 5/5 relentless strikes for 5/5 CQC and 3/3 for 10% melee haste, 51/18/2 - dps dummy test versus cookie cutter spec was very similar), so the OP QQ by other classes is pretty much warranted, so enjoy it while it lasts.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23469776 Thu, 10 Dec 2009 15:41:52 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23469482 Chauncey : At least people who are new to the game or gearing up a new character have access to gear that allows them to catch up now.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23469482 Thu, 10 Dec 2009 14:53:22 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23469400 djlar : Yeah I was also doing almost 7K on those 5 mans, group was severly mismatched, second dps on the chart was a spriest doing 2K then a ret pally doing 1.9K... I was basically carrying the other 2 dps

(or it was matched but they sucked)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23469400 Thu, 10 Dec 2009 14:38:13 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23469065 Ibezombie : Okay so I used Inst/Deadly and WOW what a dps boost. I was doing almost 7k in the ICC 5 mans. I did have one question. If I'm using adrenaline rush and I'm SnD and Rup buffed should I pop envenom? It consumes your poison, but one thing I'm doing is adren rush/get everything buffed up/ envenom/killingspree/ reg rot. I get a nice dps boost from a 13k crit but sometimes KS doesn't seem to fill up the full 5 points in DP.

People are bitching about us being OP.

Especially Locks and HunTARDS that are usually at the TOP of the DPS charts. The big difference is, for me, that I actually sat down with the new patch and geared my ass up. I got two 232 weapons a few 245's off EoT's and got some actual gear from the ICC 5 man heroics.

I hope they don't nerf us.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23469065 Thu, 10 Dec 2009 13:44:29 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23464159 Critsmcgee :

said by djlar

:

Wound on bosses that heal still on, right?

Correct, i still carry wound for bosses with healing.
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Coffee, Tea, SEGA!!!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23464159 Wed, 09 Dec 2009 16:28:08 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23464121 djlar : Wound on bosses that heal still on, right?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23464121 Wed, 09 Dec 2009 16:23:24 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23463994 Critsmcgee :

said by Ibezombie

:

So what should I do? I do wound wound now, and have the cookie cutter 15/51/5 spec. I am CQC with a 232 Slow Fist and quick oh dagger.

MH instant, OH Deadly
Spec 20/51/0 with 1 point into Vile and 4 points into Imp poisons. It is at least a 300-400 DPS upgrade.
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Coffee, Tea, SEGA!!!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23463994 Wed, 09 Dec 2009 16:04:48 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23463678 Ibezombie : So what should I do? I do wound wound now, and have the cookie cutter 15/51/5 spec. I am CQC with a 232 Slow Fist and quick oh dagger.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23463678 Wed, 09 Dec 2009 15:19:38 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23463212 Azdranax : The new 232 ArP trinket drops off of Devourer of Souls in the Forge of Souls heroic version.

The 20/51/0 spec is a bit subjective - whether to go 5/5 improved poisons, 4/5 and 1/3 vile, or 3/5 and 2/3 vile. Due to mob fights and target switching, for now I have decided on 3/5 and 2/3 for fights that require wound - thats what my dummy tests were based on in combat. Mutilate spec should not be changing.

Dual spec is going to be utilized by me far more often moving forward, as I can't imagine single target fights going anything but Mutilate for now, despite the fact I am a combat-lover above all else.

I'm considering testing my Mutilate spec with dropping relentless strikes and adding points in combat to get the 10% melee haste talent instead. I'm wondering if the additional poison procs and haste will sustain more damage than the energy regen at 5 combo points. With the already ridiculously high crit rates and energy regen procs from the crits, I wouldn't be shocked if this increased dps. I'd also be interested to see if a nearly ruptureless cycle isn't more benficial as well (just a rupture here and there to make sure HfB stays up, otherwise all envenom.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23463212 Wed, 09 Dec 2009 14:18:09 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23462745 djlar : Crits, did you change to 20/51/0? or that increase is just as you were?
The armpen trinket didn't drop! what boss was it again?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23462745 Wed, 09 Dec 2009 13:07:12 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23462560 Critsmcgee :

said by Azdranax

:

Crits, Staulkor, Djlar and company, I'm interested to hear your thoughts - or whether you have seen any changes to the combat spreadsheet with the new poison changes.

My opinion is Rogue's cookie cutter spec for combat will now likely be 20/51/0 with the extra deadly proc and bonus to deadly application for improved poisons. I'll have to run dummy tests, but MH poison will likely now be instant > wound with at least 2 pts in Improved Poisons (likely only for longer raid fights though). I'll be interested to see how this affects ArP vs Agil stacking as well, depending on the additional poison damage amount...

Thats exactly what i ran last night and it performed well. I kinda dont like it though. To me it seems like i have to wait for deadly poison to stack to really see the DPS gain. I suppose before i would have to build combo points but now it feels like i have almost 2 slice and dices.

Before patch spreadsheet DPS - 8529
After patch spreadsheet DPS - 8991

I noticed an increase last night on sustained DPS but at the same time changing targets was cumbersome because the lack of combo points.
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Coffee, Tea, SEGA!!!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23462560 Wed, 09 Dec 2009 12:42:57 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23462261 anon : Rogue deadly poison buff is OP, really excited to see single-target damage done in 10 and 25 mans now (instance servers for entire battlegroup were down all night, not even heroics were available).

Dummy test showed a sustained dps increase of about 12-15% in new combat spec and same mutilate. Easily doing one million damage on boss dummy test in just under 4 minutes with both specs (unbuffed, only poisons), with Mut about 150 dps ahead. Unless wound is needed for a specific fight, I can't imagine anyone running anything other than instant MH, deadly OH.

With the amount of base ArP on some of the T10 and equivalent ilvl gear, stacking Agil is likely going to outperform ArP in combat spec now as well, especially with the 5-man heroic forge of souls dropping the new ArP trinket that is even better than Mjulnir Runestone (678 on proc, I believe).

I'm sure EJ and Aldriana are already all over this subject - maybe even have a new spreadsheet - unfortunately at work this is the only WoW-related site I can see...and it feels like I live at work sometimes.

Would be interested to hear what anyone saw live with damage in raids last night.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23462261 Wed, 09 Dec 2009 12:23:18 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23458582 anon : Crits, Staulkor, Djlar and company, I'm interested to hear your thoughts - or whether you have seen any changes to the combat spreadsheet with the new poison changes.

My opinion is Rogue's cookie cutter spec for combat will now likely be 20/51/0 with the extra deadly proc and bonus to deadly application for improved poisons. I'll have to run dummy tests, but MH poison will likely now be instant > wound with at least 2 pts in Improved Poisons (likely only for longer raid fights though). I'll be interested to see how this affects ArP vs Agil stacking as well, depending on the additional poison damage amount...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23458582 Tue, 08 Dec 2009 18:47:52 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23455703 Critsmcgee :

said by djlar

:

Muti is gonna be more OP now..

For sustained DPS mutilate is blowing any other class/spec out of the water. Its sure to get a nerf in the coming weeks. For now, nothing can compete on sustained DPS. Supposedly, and i cant get you a link for this because im at work, but its a whole 1000 DPS ahead of combat in its current state. People are calling it bugged. Like HaT bugged.
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Coffee, Tea, SEGA!!!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23455703 Tue, 08 Dec 2009 10:10:23 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23455612 djlar : I'm 18/51/2 atm... I have 3 pts on vile I could move those 2 from Sub to Imp poisons or maybe go 2 on vile and 3 on imp poisons..

Muti is gonna be more OP now..]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23455612 Tue, 08 Dec 2009 09:53:15 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23455499 Critsmcgee : Oh yea, the new buff means its Instant/deadly all the time. Keep an eye out for this also. Supposedly people are saying that 20/51/0 is the new spec. You take all points out of relentless strikes and drop 4 points into Imp poisons and 1 into vile
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Coffee, Tea, SEGA!!!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23455499 Tue, 08 Dec 2009 09:30:46 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23455485 djlar : Nice idea, at least for Jaraxxus Heroic, any other boss is Wound/Deadly all the time, with the new "buff" it's staying...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23455485 Tue, 08 Dec 2009 09:28:48 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23455472 Critsmcgee : I always roll wound/wound for AoE situations though. Even on Jarraxxus i do wound/wound because when DPSing the portals/volcanos deadly wont have enough time to stack and you will most likely loose your stacks on jarraxxxus. If you have the haste wound/wound is better.
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Coffee, Tea, SEGA!!!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23455472 Tue, 08 Dec 2009 09:25:49 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23455445 djlar : This for "3.3 Rogue"

* Deadly Poison: In addition to its existing effects, when a rogue applies Deadly Poison to a target which has already reached the maximum number of applications, this will also trigger the poison which the rogue is using on his or her other weapon.

At least we got something...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23455445 Tue, 08 Dec 2009 09:19:35 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23455317 djlar : I just know I want either the fist or mace from Festergut 25 NOW!

Although the Fist weapon, the latest, it's a non-stat proc weapon (like Ony's 25 sword), chance or hit sends a bolt of damaging something, but it's a 232 something DPS main hander..]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23455317 Tue, 08 Dec 2009 08:50:08 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23452383 anon : Well Djlar - how about you laugh at this.

You should be starting P2 with full energy, which gives you the first two FoK's automatically, the third should be immediate as well with enough crits from the first two hits, and after three seconds (or about three instant FoKs, your deadly will be ticking, meaning you are going to get back about 20-30 energy each tick with virtually every whelp poisoned now....between ticks and crits you have zero cooldown on FoK.

There is zero chance you get off as many FoKs running all T9. Just try it once and realize, wow, that was a really good idea - then collect the bet winnings.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23452383 Mon, 07 Dec 2009 17:52:55 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23452287 djlar : Yeah how your T8 energy regen was procing with the mobs not poisoned.. LOL]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23452287 Mon, 07 Dec 2009 17:01:47 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23452275 anon : Probably from the 2 energy proc from crit strikes, but swapping out 2 pieces of T8.5 makes it a true endless instant-cast, I mean zero CD at all. I have 5/5 T9.25 and swapping the two pieces of T8.5 = about 3-4k more damage.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23452275 Mon, 07 Dec 2009 17:01:30 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23452256 anon : Deadly, not wound - I'm having another "derrrr" day.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23452256 Mon, 07 Dec 2009 17:00:17 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23452258 djlar : I can still insta-cast spam FoK with T9 IDK how...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23452258 Mon, 07 Dec 2009 16:57:04 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23452055 anon : Don't forget, you also need to swap out two pieces on gear for T8.5 for the wound poison energy regen - essentially making FoK an instant cast with zero cooldown. This week in our guild run I topped out at just under 19k for P2 and finished at 12k for the entire fight, without tremor totems or any fear wards. I still finished 700k damage ahead of our top mage, who was 2nd. Using the T8.5 pieces, only a fully T9 geared DK has a chance to stay with you then.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23452055 Mon, 07 Dec 2009 16:45:02 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23450476 djlar : Muti + 2 high dmg daggers + glyph of FoK + Overkill + HfB = WIN

Still got #1 this week on both Onys]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23450476 Mon, 07 Dec 2009 11:50:04 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23450077 anon : Actually its a guild run I was refferring to and the top 5 dps(myslef included) always bet gold who will end at the top of the dps at the end of the whelps part.. Aggro has never been an issue because guildies know how to play there toons I guess.. Nyways I just would like to win the money pot once in awhile lol]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23450077 Mon, 07 Dec 2009 11:21:03 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23439180 dynodb : LOL at people concerned about their dps on Ony whelps.

As lone as they go down by the time the tank picks up the big add, it doesn't matter.

I've lost track of how many times I've seen people die because they were so intent on rocking the dps meters that they didn't manage their agro and died as a result.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23439180 Fri, 04 Dec 2009 16:46:30 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23438530 djlar : It's OK mages on whelps but not if they take 20 mins to bring her down!

We usually complain about ranged aoeing the whelps while Ony deep breathes 10 times and there are elites mixed with whelps 'cause the ranged just want to inflate their dps numbers.

A rogue, warrior, dk and ret pally should be enough to finish the adds, I hate seeing lighting clouds, arrwos and fire storms on whelps.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23438530 Fri, 04 Dec 2009 14:32:17 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23438060 anon : I just want to swap my oh for the first whelps in phase 2 .. I have 4 lvl 245 daggers so its not a big dealbut by swapping out a deadly poison for an instant poison and spamming fok really increase my dps by much.. Our mages were hitting like 20k and up on the whelp phase feelin little gim psitting at half that]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23438060 Fri, 04 Dec 2009 13:11:39 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23437602 anon : If you want to do a weapon swap it would be fine. I dont see much of a need for it as we lose a lot of dmg on air phase, but if you were to weapon swap, get the weapon with the highest weapon dmg and if you are combat I would use would poison, if you are mutilate I would use instant poison. Also even with the passive amount of arp from maces, cqc is still better followed by hack n slash, then maces for combat. If you dont have a grim toll or runestone, dont go arm pen, the difference really isnt worth it. Just stay with the rupture rotation and stack agi gems, your dps will still be fine. If you stack too much arm pen on your gear alone, you gimp a lot of other stats that are usefull.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23437602 Fri, 04 Dec 2009 11:48:47 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23437364 anon : This week in ony 25 I hit 8k before the whelp phase then jumped to 10k with whelps( my computer is old its lag central then)and finished at 7k .. I was wondering on whelps is it worth it to weapon swap with different poisons if so which ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23437364 Fri, 04 Dec 2009 10:50:56 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23433342 anon :

said by djlar

:

Any specs on the new rogue weapons on ICC?

Also if they are dropping from regular bosses, or we have to suffer again and get them from Heroic 25 Arthas?

There's some small discussion on them on the previous page in this thread. Also shadowpanther.net has already has them listed.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23433342 Thu, 03 Dec 2009 14:56:57 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23433144 anon : Wowhead has all the upcoming weapons and armor up.. Think new stuff drops from all content but if ur in all 245 lvl upgrades won't be in normal mode much.. Also a new lw recipe for rogues looked amazing]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23433144 Thu, 03 Dec 2009 14:31:57 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23433044 djlar : Any specs on the new rogue weapons on ICC?

Also if they are dropping from regular bosses, or we have to suffer again and get them from Heroic 25 Arthas?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23433044 Thu, 03 Dec 2009 14:03:03 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23432903 anon : Yea I'm excited for icc .. The thought was that I would be more help on the adds as now if I switch a lot my dps falls even more behind.. I do have the fast. Axe from toc 25 but no slow mh yet and I'm out of dkp so I don't see it happening in the near future]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23432903 Thu, 03 Dec 2009 13:53:40 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23431966 anon : No! What on earth would give you that idea? If you were going to do that, you'd want one of your fast daggers for your OH.

You should be using your 2 ToGC10 daggers as Mutilate, those are the best weapons you have.

If you want to get some weapons for Combat spec, pick up the fast axe from 25 man Jaraxxus for your OH and the slow Axe from Anub on either 25 or 10 man (different axes, but both are great). Those are probably the best Combat weapons for the content level you are currently running.

However ICC should be out next weak and there will be even more to chose from. No point in going back to a Naxx fist weapon.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23431966 Thu, 03 Dec 2009 11:15:38 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23431884 anon : First time poster here.. Also posting from my blackberry lol..
I have an 80 rogue (candrela warsong) fairly geared have both toc 25 daggers and both togc 10 daggers .. I noticed on anub togc10 my dps is really lacking compared to the rest of the raid .. Usually finishing at about 5.4k .. I wasn wondering if I went clamatys grasp(naxx 25 fist) and a slow 245 dagger would I have better results on anurb .. I have dual spec so switching for certain fights is np]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23431884 Thu, 03 Dec 2009 11:00:27 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23420681 anon : Lets get this thread current again so we aren't making redundant posts for rogues....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23420681 Tue, 01 Dec 2009 15:05:44 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23382369 anon : No. The Grinder (either version) are 2.6 speed... it's a great MH weapon. Like Azdranax said, a good OH to use with it is what's hard to come by.

When I was using that weapon, I used it with Dirk of the Night Watch (I now have the heroic version of that). I actually picked up both weapons in the same run.

The Axes I have now with Hack'n'Slash gave me better DPS, so I haven't used that Mace and Dagger since getting these.

Last night in ToGC25, our tank whispered me and said "Nice DPS, you're OP like a Mage now!" lol. I had spiked to 10K dps on Gormok, 'cause I blew all my CDs on the pull. We didn't get any further than that. Apparently last night was bring your favorite retard night. Whoever was supposed to be filtering new people that we brought in did an awful job.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23382369 Mon, 23 Nov 2009 10:34:04 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23372406 anon : The only OH mace worth even considering is the Stonerender off Auriaya in Uld25, which is a 232 ilvl. Staulkor correctly points out that Mace spec is the only combat spec that really currently requires you to use two different weapons - something you should never do in hack/slash or CQC. A OH dagger at 1.4 with 1 additional point in CQC will give you excellent energy procs and the fastest application of OH poison, plus 1% bonus crit. With 15% extra ArP on your MH weap from spec, it is an excellent spec for combat, and hit for hit gives you the highest MH hits for overall stats with ArP near soft cap.

If you test and test hack/slash over and over, you will see total dps of about 3.5% from hack/slash procs - sometimes higher, sometimes lower. With more and higher ilvl weapons for hack/slash, it is very popular for combat rogues, but underperforms CQC and mace dps at the same ilvl. The 258 mace and the 245 fist for either CQC or mace spec are current BiS MH damage for combat, but when you look at OH choices and ability to even get those items to drop - hack/slash is the easiest option, and by no means a bad one. For me, I'll use 5 talent points for the 5% crit CQC or 229 (roughly) ArP MH mace over hack/slash proc chance any day though. The simple rule for MH is highest damage and dps (which means slower speeds) and OH is fastest for energy regen and poison procs.

BTW - Staulkor and I both run vile poisons 3/3 instead of relentless strikes 5/5 for combat. The additional poison damage = about 4% total dps in combat, which outperforms 5/5 hack/slash. My test numbers and raid data have confirmed this for the last 2-3 months, from 4 set T8.5 to 4 set T9.25 gear and everything in between. I find it to be a much better use of the 3 points over relentless strikes - especially when using SS glyph, which is a must. Combo points and energy regen are never really a problem then.

I'm 2:10 from hitting ToGC and finding out if luck is on my side. The mace and fist are already defaulted to me in our group, so all they have to do is drop and they are mine.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23372406 Fri, 20 Nov 2009 18:55:21 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23371995 djlar : That sux.. cause that mace is too fast for MH, isn't it? or was it too slow for OH? I don't recall the speed and high end dmg..

So you may loose some dual wielding effectiveness having 2 maces at the same speed.

You may have to go slight offspec and do Main Hand with sword/axe and offhand with mace spending the 5 pts on mace spec.

BTW anyone has the math on how much the hack and slash effect procs?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23371995 Fri, 20 Nov 2009 17:28:00 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23371921 anon :

said by djlar

:

So they jumped the whole i245 level on maces?

Blizz hates rogues! I tell ya'

Not quite... The Grinder is available in a "Heroic" version which is ilvl 245... drops off Anub in ToGC10, just like the 232 version drops off him on normal.

There's no 245 mace from ToC25 though, which sucks. The 258 Mace is the only weapon from ToC that is available as a Heroic drop only, it has no normal version.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23371921 Fri, 20 Nov 2009 17:18:38 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23371889 djlar : So they jumped the whole i245 level on maces?

Blizz hates rogues! I tell ya']]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23371889 Fri, 20 Nov 2009 17:07:28 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23371029 anon : The Grinder is the ilvl 232 Mace from Anub in ToC10. It's nice, I have one, I used it until I got The Lion's Maw and Lionhead Slasher.

Remorseless (Alliance)/Cudgel of the Damned (Horde) are the ilvl 258 Maces from ToGC25 Tribute Chest.

They are BiS for Combat Rogues until ICC comes out.

2.6 Speed, 394 - 732 Damage, 216.5DPS
58 Agi
66 Sta
44 Crit
96 AP
36 Haste
Yellow Socket

I'll probably never see those. I'm more likely to see the new BiS sword, "Bloodvenom Blade" from Deathbringer Saurfang 25 man ICC, ilvl 264, when that comes out.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23371029 Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:24:40 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23370739 djlar : I've only seen one mace i232 drop since I started doing Toc 10/25, that's the only one I have, the HToC 5 is not worth it to go mace spec, where are the i245 maces? tribute chests?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23370739 Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:55:42 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23370126 anon : As I go into ToGC tonight to hopefully get my mace or fist weapon MH from Anub and the chest, it got me thinking about rogue specs and what people are currently playing and what they prefer.

I'm very partial to combat CQC, but due to lesser MH right now, use mace spec instead. I'm much more comfortable with cd's to burn than the straightforward approach of Mutilate spec - although I do use it as OS.

I'd imagine there are probably a greater number of combat rogues with hack/slash due to the relative ease of getting swords and axes these days, but I'm interested to know what people are playing as well as what they prefer. I was surprised to find the number of higher end rogues on my server from both factions running Mutilate as primary spec, but that may just be my bias...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23370126 Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:18:26 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23360635 anon : I'll probably be rocking Grim Toll and Death's Verdict for a long time. Can't ever find an Uld10 HM group, and the rare times I actually do find one, it falls apart before we even get near Thorim.

I've had Grim Toll for almost a year now it seems, and Death's Verdict I've had for over a month now. Before that I still had a Mirror of Truth. I think I actually got my Grim Toll before I got my Mirror of Truth, lol.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23360635 Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:39:28 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23360547 anon : Looks like Blizz is finally trying to even out the combat spec options for rogues in 3.3, as CQC is my first choice but a viable MH is tough to find. IC Uld 10 HM didn't drop the fist this week, and ToGC dropped caster from Anub and chest both.

Those ICC trinks look very nice, but Uld 10 HM Thorim will still be on my farm list until Mjulnir Runestone drops. So much of dps scales from weapons and trinkets, and all of mine are meh (Grim Toll is solid still though). I think this is my week though, my 232 weapons are tired and need replacement. I see a shiny 245 ToGC dagger, mace or fist in my future.

Unfortunately, ToGC 25 is still not something I get to run due to guild lacking enough serious raiders and side guild I run with closing their 25 man group. Maybe sometime soon though...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23360547 Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:05:08 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23360134 anon : Haven't gotten that far to see one drop yet. I've been hoping for The Stormpike Cleaver for my MH combat set, still using The Lions Maw. Enhancement Shaman got it on Sunday.

I just noticed that Shadowpanther added some 3.3 weapons. Looks like there's a very nice ilvl 251 sword and mace available as a heroic quest reward. I see ilvl 264 Sword and Fist from IC25, and ilvl 251 Axe and Mace from IC10.

I also see a ilvl 232 Axe, Fist, and Mace from the new heroic.

I haven't been keeping up with it, not sure which boss Rotface will be, but new BiS dagger drops from him in IC25.

New trinket is on the list... "Deathbringer's Will"... 155ArP with a 30 second 600 Agility proc! IC25 drop. Ooh and a nice new trinket from the new heroic... "Needle Encrusted Scorpion" 114 Crit with a 452 ArP proc. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23360134 Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:06:40 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23359996 djlar : Nope haven't seen it on any rogue on the server yet, the few that complete ToGC perhaps they don't get the drop...

Nobody also wants to run FL hard mode, another nice Main Hand better than current...

Lost the Main Hand Axe just last night,, but got the armpen boots as a consolation.. that's about 40 more armpen before gems..

I'm thinking of "downgrading" the neck piece, Change Ony one for the i232 ToC one that has armpen, I'm almost reaching the 800 mark w/o trinkets.. even want to run some Heroic DTK for the T'rex tooth that give about 250 armpen when used.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23359996 Wed, 18 Nov 2009 14:22:13 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23359473 anon : Yeah Dj, GT is much easier to get, since it can drop twice in Naxx in the same raid and drops off more than that number of bosses. That said, I really want Mjulnir Runestone and will continue to do HM's until it drops - seen Sif's twice in a row now on Thorim.

Would like the Death's Verdict trink otherwise and can re-gem for ArP to soft cap with GT - unfortunately lost on a 93 roll last night to another guild raider on it :(

I have great luck on regular gear, but horrid luck on trinks and weapons. Been T9.5 4-set for a few weeks now, and only 258 gear would be upgrades for all non-weap/trinket slots for me now, but still have yet to see a single 245 useable weap for either Mut or Combat spec drop in ToC or ToGC.

Really hoping to see The Spinebreaker in ToGC this week, then I will be a happy man. BTW - does anyone have that bad boy yet?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23359473 Wed, 18 Nov 2009 12:50:47 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23359230 Adalicia : I'd stick with trying to get Grim Toll out of Naxx 25.

We've done Thorim's hard mode more times than I can count and I've yet to see that trinket or Sif's Remberence drop one time.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23359230 Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:57:04 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23359187 djlar : Indeed, get rid of those hit gems, get Arp if Combat or Agi if muti... with just gear you should be over 400 hit and that's good enough... I'm about 540 hit with gear alone.

I just got the ToC25 Boots with armpen, that put me on the passive armpen at 759!, still the elusive GT is not in sight with even more Naxx25 runs that reserved it, I'm thinking of making my own naxx25 raid and reserving it myself!

There's a "buyable" Ulduar HM 10 run available but I'm risking not dropping for the gold they charge for that run.. but I'm poor I wouldn't have the money to buy the run.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23359187 Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:47:20 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23349058 crytz : You dont have to worry about matching the gems to get the small bonus. Just gem everything with red gems either Agil for mutilate, or Armpen if your combat. And have 1 prismatic gem for a blue gem slot and your good to go. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23349058 Mon, 16 Nov 2009 13:48:46 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23348809 anon : Regemming for all Agil or ArP will likely give you the greatest benefit. Gemming to ArP means you need to get to (or near at least) the soft cap and have either Grim Toll or Mjulnir Runestone trinket equipped to reach hard cap (of approx. 1300-1530 depending on spec). If you don't have the trinket and/or your ArP from gear is too low (trinks give 612 and 665 ArP on proc), then gem all Agil for highest dps. Do not allow hit to fall below 315 though, and Expertise should be at least 15-20, preferably closer to 26 (or 28, I forget the Exp cap atm). Haste in 3.2.2 is of minimal benefit, but is likely to get buffed in Cataclysm due to removal of ArP - there are rumors haste will also affect energy regen come the expansion...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23348809 Mon, 16 Nov 2009 13:09:34 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23346610 Filleknyck : Hi guys,
Really interesting to read all the posts in this forum. I was wondering if you could give me some input on gemming. If I've understood the discussions correctly, reaching Hit Cap isn't necessary a goal in itself. I currently have 714 in hitrating, so I'm not far from it, but I'd rather regem to something that gives more dps. Currently my gems give me +101 agi, +60 hit, +30 haste, +15 stam and 3 % crit. To my disposal I have the following slots: Yellow 4, Red 3, Blue 1, Meta 1 + Belt buckle.

On Armory you can find me on the EU Khadgar server. Char name Filleknyck.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23346610 Sun, 15 Nov 2009 23:37:37 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23320735 djlar : Indeed, also a better offhand can improve dps a bit, the heroic 1.4 dagger is good for OH, guild ran togc last week but I coudn't make it to the raid and the dagger dropped.. figures..

I could go hack and slash but still 2 232 swords with not so high end damage aren't that good, and they are a pair so one of them is going to be too slow or too fast..]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23320735 Tue, 10 Nov 2009 14:14:08 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23320536 anon : And Djlar, I feel your pain. CQC spec is amazing with a great MH, but really only 3 MH's available right now, and that requires downing FL 25 hard mode, Iron Council 10 hard mode, or Tribute chest, and getting lucky enough to get the drop and winning a role versus Enhance Shammies and other rogues. The Shammy seems to always cry foul saying it is better for them, but CQC pwns for rogues, so if you get the chance to get it, ninja that stuff :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23320536 Tue, 10 Nov 2009 13:35:29 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23320453 anon : Combat spec dps, in CQC, Mace and Hack/Slash, is going to scale (for the most part) in this order: MH weapon base damage/dps, then by total ArP (if near the soft/hard cap (hard cap via trink), then by Agil, then by AP, then by crit. If your base ArP is not above at least 400 (should be closer to 540-690 depending on spec and ArP trinket) and equipping either Mjulnir Runestone or Grim Toll, then Agil and AP will scale dps better than ArP.

If you are going to change specs or are trying to max your available dps, you should test your gear via spreadsheet info and by dummy tests - I always give more weight to dummy testing though. Ultimately, spec to whatever the best MH weapon you have, as that will play the biggest part in getting the most dps out of your rogue. Try not to run different weapon types (such as sword/dagger or mace/sword) - the only mix combo that is acceptable is Mace/dagger, since BiS OH mace is 232 drop off of Auriaya in Uld 25 and extra pts can go to CQC in mace spec for the dagger. Also, in order to max OH damage, energy procs and poison apps, your OH needs to be 1.5 speed or less.

Depending on gear and spec, certain items can play a big role in dps. If you have high ArP, you absolutely need either Mjulnir Runestone or Grim Toll (not both), as they are the two BiS trinks for ArP stacking - obviously to reach ArP hard cap on proc (approx 1300). If ArP is less than 400, then Death's Verdict and Greatness Card are likely better due to Agil, while Banner of Victory can be used to make ArP stacking the better option.

Make sure to test though, don't trust any information blindly, and certainly don't trust gear score values. The idea of 245 > 232 > 226 > 219 > 213 > 200 is not necessarily true (although any 258 is tough to beat). Measure your gear, then test your gear, then kill stuff with your gear.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23320453 Tue, 10 Nov 2009 13:21:02 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23319055 djlar : Since my rogue attacks scale with main hand weapon damage and still wearing a 'low' main hander fist I'm having difficulty matching other rogues' dps, all of the rogues that beat me seem to have better main handers, either an axe or a dagger that has near 200dps.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23319055 Tue, 10 Nov 2009 09:15:40 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23318440 Sithra : Any of you Rogues done Heroic Anub on 25? Need some tips as my DPS was shank last night.

Tried speccing combat midway through and DPS was no different, but I only have 232 weapons and gear with 0 ArP.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23318440 Tue, 10 Nov 2009 03:47:44 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23313842 crytz : Ouch, yeah you NEVEr want to be Combat spec with daggers. Anything but daggers in combat really. She should be mutilate, that alone should increase her dps by 1k or so. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23313842 Mon, 09 Nov 2009 10:30:08 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23313808 Songbyrd : I'll send her to that website.

3/46/22 is what she has now. She has two 1.3 daggers as that was the best we could grab off the ah for her at the time.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23313808 Mon, 09 Nov 2009 10:24:06 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23313504 djlar :

said by Songbyrd

:

I have a rogue I need to help out, actually it helps me out because I am carrying her every day in the daily heroic.

I read through this thread and it made my head hurt. This rogue will never be an end game player, nor will she ever do serious pvp.

So I am requesting very simple, easy to understand advice to give to a rogue that I would just like to see out dps the tank.

So please to the Rogue Guru's -

1- A simple rogue spec (please include what weapons she needs with the spec)
2- Basic rotation that is not complicated (where she can just click buttons in a row)

She has two librarian paper cutters at present. That gives you an idea of where her gear is at. She uses Fok on everything, that gives you an idea of her skill level. I saw her peak at 1200 dps once.......it's usually around 800.

In a perfect world, I would just not take her into the daily heroic, but that would make family visits not so comfy. :)

That's his problem spamming FoK... even more after the nerf...

If he's mutilate, he will have to open stealthed with garrote, then hunger for blood (he has the glyph right?), mutilate , SnD, mutilate, Envenom, mutilate to 4/5 pts, envenom (to keep SnD up), he can vanish if the fight is long to get the buff again, usually the mob will had a bleed so rupture isn't necessary. Refresh Hunger for Blood if necessary..]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23313504 Mon, 09 Nov 2009 09:12:57 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23313503 crytz : Its fairly easy Songbyrd, if she's got daggers a 51/13/7 mutilate spec is about right. If she's got a decent slow MH weapon and fast OH. She needs to go combat at 15/51/5, I dont have access to the talent calcs otherwise i'd post it.

Check »rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geu.IQI_hKr···e-guide/

This has everything you need to know, well all the basics about the class and rotations. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23313503 Mon, 09 Nov 2009 09:12:22 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23313444 crytz :

said by Sentainer :

I have a level 62 rogue, I used level grants and been pvping with him to level. I have not actually quested with him.
What is the best spec to use at the lower level (currently spec'ed combat). Also looking of a rotation with sinister strike to build up combo points. Any ideas will help.

I'd say your doing it right being combat spec. But if you've got good daggers, you could go with a mutilate/Sub spec with improved ambush. As killing mobs with a couple of big crits will be much quicker then spamming sinister strikes/evisc.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23313444 Mon, 09 Nov 2009 08:59:56 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23313272 anon : I have a level 62 rogue, I used level grants and been pvping with him to level. I have not actually quested with him.
What is the best spec to use at the lower level (currently spec'ed combat). Also looking of a rotation with sinister strike to build up combo points. Any ideas will help.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23313272 Mon, 09 Nov 2009 08:07:12 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23313137 Songbyrd : I have a rogue I need to help out, actually it helps me out because I am carrying her every day in the daily heroic.

I read through this thread and it made my head hurt. This rogue will never be an end game player, nor will she ever do serious pvp.

So I am requesting very simple, easy to understand advice to give to a rogue that I would just like to see out dps the tank.

So please to the Rogue Guru's -

1- A simple rogue spec (please include what weapons she needs with the spec)
2- Basic rotation that is not complicated (where she can just click buttons in a row)

She has two librarian paper cutters at present. That gives you an idea of where her gear is at. She uses Fok on everything, that gives you an idea of her skill level. I saw her peak at 1200 dps once.......it's usually around 800.

In a perfect world, I would just not take her into the daily heroic, but that would make family visits not so comfy. :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23313137 Mon, 09 Nov 2009 06:09:31 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23301511 anon : Last night on VoA, I switched to ruptureless rotations on all three bosses. There was no real strong difference compared with my dps from last week as long as I waited until envenom was at 5 points everytime. If it wasnt at 5 points my dps dipped a tad.

My dps may have actually increase slightly or that could have been in my head.

I repeated the same experiment on ONY 10. Same result.

This is running a standard mutilate spec.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23301511 Fri, 06 Nov 2009 11:50:30 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23301280 anon : Well this is what I've come up with so far.

Beasts - Mutilate, beasts are murder-able targets, so this spec seems to pull ahead on this fight.

Jaraxxus - Combat, because he is a Demon, Murder does not apply here. The burst CDs help a lot on the portals and volcanoes.

Faction Champions - Mutilate, but use wound poison on MH for the 50% healing reduction. All targets are Humanoid, so Murder applies. The mechanics of this fight mean we can end up spending a lot of time out of range of a target, which makes our energy cap out. With Mutilate you can maximize your damage when you are in range by dumping all your energy with 2 quick Mutilates. Kidney Shot is very useful in this fight, and nothing builds combo points faster than Mutilate.

Twins - Combat, the Twins are Undead, so Murder does not help here. The burst CDs help out a lot when they cast Twin's Pack (their shield). If they are tanked close enough together, using Blade Flurry every cool down to hit both of them at the same time increases our DPS quite a bit.

Anub - Combat, when the adds are brought up to the boss, pop Blade Flurry and Killing Spree to help burn them down. In phase 3, pop Adrenaline Rush.

I love dual spec and gear swapping feature. It only takes a couple seconds to switch specs between fights, and the gear swapping is even faster.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23301280 Fri, 06 Nov 2009 11:47:05 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23298173 anon : I'll take any buff I can get - petition Blizz pl0x. I don't see ICC being anything like ToC though, that is if BT is any indication of end-expansion instances anyway. ToC always feels exactly like what it is named - a trial or test. Maybe Blizz wants to eliminate more of the exploration/trash mob aspect to allow more people to raid end-game content - but even in my limited available raiding time I'd rather see something that requires mulpitple days to full clear for end-game content, not just a fight you can get to fairly quickly but then requires ridiculous coordination and maybe even luck to down. End game should be elite - let the masses enjoy ToC.

Oh, and 4 arcane mages fighting to spellsteal on Jaraxxus, you should have an open vent for that fight and listen to the other 3 whine when they are too late - that would be funny.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23298173 Thu, 05 Nov 2009 18:38:35 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23298070 anon : Yes, ArP does play a huge part in ruptureless, and thats interesting to know on Hack/Slash - I stopped using it in favor of mace spec and CQC always giving me better numbers in raids and dummy tests though. If I got the 245/258 sword/axe upgrades, I'd obviously have to test that out.

I think most rogues who are used to raiding combat are still partial to it, but the ridiculous damage in Ony with the 2 piece T8 in Mut is just too fun to pass up each week - out damaging #2 on the meter by nearly 1 million damage is way too fun to pass up. You can make a lot of gold by betting other classes pre-raid in pugs about damage meter :)

I also have a higher GS in Mut spec, but I'm just too partial to the cd's and burst potential of KS and Blade Flurry to change. I have a raid geared blood DK and arcane mage as well, and when I play them, I always keep my eye on the rogue in group to measure myself - I'll always be a rogue first and foremost though.

I just hope blizz makes combat rogue CQC and mace specs more gear equal with hack/slash, I mean the mace spec BiS OH still drops off Auriaya in 25 Uld for crying out loud.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23298070 Thu, 05 Nov 2009 18:10:52 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23298065 Tehuno : like you said your cleave is on a cooldown, the others arent. for a point of reference our top ret pulled 13.9k on heroic twins last night. the rogues were in the 12k range, which is nothing to sneeze at, but i did 12k as elemental 2 weeks ago on normal. even a mostly single target like jaraxxus its tough for the rogues to hit top 5, probably because we run 4 arcane mages :P

if ICC has similar fight mechanics to ToC, i hate to say it but rogues may need some slight buffs, or at least a better designed set compared to the crap that was T9. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23298065 Thu, 05 Nov 2009 18:07:24 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23297911 anon : That pretty much explains it right there.

I never thought of keeping 2pc T8 on hand to swap in for Ony, that's a good idea. I disenchanted all my T8 long ago though, don't think I'll go buy 2pc of it again just for that. Already got my Bloodfang Hood, so I'm kinda getting tired of doing Ony.

I would not say 4800+ GS = ruptureless is better. When I had The Grinder and was Mace Spec and was around the 4800GS level, Ruptureless gave me the best DPS. When I upgraded to The Lion's Maw and Lionhead Slasher changing my spec to Hack'n'Slash, the standard rupture rotation came out ahead. The amount of ArP you have is really what determines if ruptureless is better or not, at least when it comes to Combat.

At 5168GS with my combat gear on, rupture rotation is still the best for me. I use the 18/51/3 spec you're talking about. 3/3 Vile Poison and 3/5 Relentless strikes. It is a spec a lot of people use, I found it gave me the best DPS with what I have now. I just don't have the ArP for ruptureless right now.

In Mutilate my GS is 5205, and I have not yet tested the ruptureless cycle with it. I only bought dual spec and started using Mutilate a week ago. Topped the meter with 7800DPS on Beasts with the standard rupture rotation on Tuesday night. I'll have to give ruptureless Mutilate a shot next week.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23297911 Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:48:11 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23297942 anon :

said by Tehuno

:

there is nothing wrong with losing to other classes in ToC 10/25 as a rogue. ToC isnt a melee friendly instance, something you should keep in mind before making blanket statements. Toc is also a cleave heavy instance, favoring dk's and rets.

Now losing in ulduar is a different story, that place was rogue heaven.

The cleave fights are where it's best to be Combat. With Blade Flurry (hits additional targets), and Killing Spree (which is a good burst on up to 5 targets) we can be very useful on those fights. Blade Flurry is like a burst cleave, it's on a cool down, so it's not active all the time, but when it deals a ton of damage to anything in range.

This is why I run dual spec for ToC. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23297942 Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:48:04 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23297967 anon : Fair enough Tehuno, I wasn't specific I suppose. Beasts favors ranged dps and faction champs is more about completing your role than full out dps, but note I didn't say anything about ret or DK, most strats that involve grouping adds on boss or tanking twins back to back may lead to those classes doing more damage, but raid wide, and single target specifically - rogues are still tops. And my main point was, and is, rogues are responsible for doing the most amount of damage possible, as they have very limited impact on a raid otherwise. Thats how rogues are measured.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23297967 Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:47:45 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23297869 Tehuno : there is nothing wrong with losing to other classes in ToC 10/25 as a rogue. ToC isnt a melee friendly instance, something you should keep in mind before making blanket statements. Toc is also a cleave heavy instance, favoring dk's and rets.

Now losing in ulduar is a different story, that place was rogue heaven. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23297869 Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:22:07 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23297761 anon :

said by Babyduck :

Just to Clarify, what is exactly is a ruptureless rotation? Are you simply taking rupture out of the mix and replacing it with envenom or eviserate?

Yes. Basically you never use rupture. Keep SnD up at all times, then use Evis if you're Combat, or Envenom if you're Mutilate. You should only do either with 5 combo points.

said by Babyduck :

Does this rotation require armor pen? and does this rotation not use hunger for blood?

This rotation is not better without your armor pen being at the soft cap with a grim toll or mjolnir's runestone to hit the cap when they proc. You should always use Hunger For Blood. If there isn't another person in your raid keeping a bleed effect up on the boss at all times, you probably don't want to use this rotation with Mutilate. I have another Rogue, and a few warriors in my 25 mans, so there's always a bleed effect up on the boss to keep HfB going.

said by Babyduck :

I have been using the standard mutilate rotation with envenom and rupture? And doing well in ToC 10 and ToC 25 (top1-5 depending), but if there is something better I could do I would be all over that.

It is more complicated trying to use this rotation with Mutilate, I haven't tried it in Mutilate at all yet. Everything I've read points to needing to use a weapon swap macro with different poisons on the weapons you're swapping. I don't have a 2nd set of daggers to do this with.

I still think the rotation is better suited for Combat if you have the gear to support it, but I know people are doing it with Mutilate too. I need a couple more pieces of gear before I attempt it again.

said by Babyduck :

Also, what spd of daggers does this require? with the changes to master poisoner talent is there even a point to getting a 1.4 OH?

Everything I've read has pointed to still using Slow MH Fast OH, as far as I know that hasn't changed. Like I said though, I haven't tried this rotation with Mutilate yet. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23297761 Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:15:56 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23297766 anon : Ruptureless rotation focuses entirely on Envenoms for Mut and Eviscerates for combat, but SnD must stay up for both at all times (and HfB for Mut as well, which envenoms will obviously refresh). Replace rupture glyph with eviscerate for combat and whatever you need for Mut spec, as you should already have Mut and HfB glyphs - I use FoK glyph because I only use Mut spec for fights with numerous adds and swap out 2 pieces of T9 fo T8 for energy, which makes FoK an instant cast with no cd on Onyxia whelps (you can easily hit 10k dps for the entire fight with this strat).

Once you are in the 4800+ gearscore addon range, ruptureless is going to be more dps and damage in virtually every spreadsheet and dps test you try.

As far as the OH weap, I've actually found Golem-Shard Sticker to out perform the Dirk of the Night Watch for both specs (CQC and Mut) - so 232 1.5 > 1.4, but 245 1.4 daggers then outperform them, so once you get the ToC25 or any ToGC weapons, they are going to be BiS. The stats lost by the Ony 245 weaps make them highly overrated, and if you test them, you'll likely find they are no better if not slightly worse than 232 items from ToC10 (exception may be the dagger in Mut spec - I don't have it).

As I've said before, I put far less stock in spreadsheets than actually testing and raid data, so I always encourage you to test the weaps yourself for the actual better fit. My own spec in combat is slightly altered from the normal accepted, as I do not spec relentless strikes for CQC and instead put the pts in Vile poisons and vigor and run only wound poison. In my numerous trials and raids between the two, it gives me about 3% more total damage than relentless strikes does in my current gear (approx. 5100 GS). I often raid with a 5250 GS hack/slash rogue, and I easily out damage him in every fight, but I think he is a pretty weak player though.

Hope this helps.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23297766 Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:09:37 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23297492 anon : Just to Clarify, what is exactly is a ruptureless rotation? Are you simply taking rupture out of the mix and replacing it with envenom or eviserate?

Does this rotation require armor pen? and does this rotation not use hunger for blood?

I have been using the standard mutilate rotation with envenom and rupture? And doing well in ToC 10 and ToC 25 (top1-5 depending), but if there is something better I could do I would be all over that.

Also, what spd of daggers does this require? with the changes to master poisoner talent is there even a point to getting a 1.4 OH? ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23297492 Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:31:08 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23296956 anon : I completely agree with Staulkor in the fact that much of this discussion thread is regarding max dps for end-game raiding rogues. Whether you use the spreadsheet or dummy test, the results are going to tell you ruptureless rotation is higher dps - and not by an insignificant amount (when you consider ToGC10/25 fights).

Just because you are in top 5 dps/damage on faceroll fights in ToC10/25 doesn't mean you can do your job in the end-game raids. Rogues in pve have one goal - do the most damage possible. If hunters, warlocks and mages of the same gear score are beating you, then you probably need to improve your play if your goal is to down Anub in ToGC and be ready to pwn ICC when it opens up.

There are subtle things rogues add to a raid, like ToT buffs to tanks and interrupts and stun locks for certain fights, but we don't provide raid buffs or any other measurable benefit other than our damage - so to let other classes out damage you is failure, that is if you want to clear end-game content. Staulkor is 100% right on that point, and most of his other posts for that matter.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23296956 Thu, 05 Nov 2009 15:07:25 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23296147 anon :

said by Kulldar

said by Staulkor :

If you haven't realized this by now, you fail as a Rogue.

Comments like this just irritate the hell out of me. How about leaving the immature flaming to the official forums?

I agree, however, calling people ignorant just because you don't understand something irritates the hell out of me. I'll leave it at that.

said by Kulldar

said by Staulkor :

Your rotation depends on the level of gear you currently have available to you.

People who would rather play their own style, probably aren't (or shouldn't be) concerned about their DPS at all, and probably don't raid. I don't think those types of people browse these sort of threads either. :P

I guess you could say my "playstyle" is putting out as much DPS as possible.

I don't see how choosing a ruptureless rotation over a rupture rotation would affect anyone's "playstyle" unless they are a roll playing nut that believes Rogues should always use bleed effects? You still hit the same number of buttons with either rotation.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23296147 Thu, 05 Nov 2009 12:16:30 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23296018 Kulldar :

said by Staulkor :

If you haven't realized this by now, you fail as a Rogue.

Comments like this just irritate the hell out of me. How about leaving the immature flaming to the official forums?

said by Staulkor :

Your rotation depends on the level of gear you currently have available to you.

I absolutely agree. If a rupture-less rotation does in fact provide the best DPS I'm sure that's based on using all the best gear. You're not going to get the same results unless you're equally geared and equally skilled.

You also have to use the rotation that works best for your playstyle. Just because a rotation isn't "THE" top dps rotation doesn't mean can't still pump out plenty of DPS. Sometimes the difference is barely significant. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23296018 Thu, 05 Nov 2009 11:45:32 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23295340 anon : I'll use your own logic here for you...

To simply denounce what the top players of this class in the world have tested and proven is just plain ignorance.

Use some sense and make use of the resources that are available.

Your rotation depends on the level of gear you currently have available to you. If you haven't realized this by now, you fail as a Rogue.

It has been proven that when you are at a high gear level with your ArP at or near the cap, a ruptureless rotation currently provides the best DPS. If your gear isn't at that level, you shouldn't be worrying about it. Every time I switch gear, I look at all the options to see what will provide the best DPS with what I have now. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23295340 Thu, 05 Nov 2009 10:32:51 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23295282 crytz : I think everyone compares what we used to have with the rupture crits as a set bonus to the t9 which is far inferior. I'm doing pretty good without a rupture in my rotation as well.

I'm sure if you kept up the rupture rotation it would do decent as well. But we're all about simplifying things in this game so having 1 less ability in you rotation and still performing well sounds good to me.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23295282 Thu, 05 Nov 2009 09:41:12 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23295042 djlar : I abandoned the Rupture rotation when I realized that once in a blue moon the 2 piece bonus procced. I'm doing way better with the Evis rotation IMO, and the 4 piece bonus is also a bit of a joke, 5% more crit for SS, Mut, Hem? I"m already at 55% crit raid buffed (before talents and glyphs), I'm going the non-tier way, changing the Tier expertise pieces for the hit+armpen pieces (crafted, onyxia), they even have more crit and AP than tier..]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23295042 Thu, 05 Nov 2009 08:35:48 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23295022 Kulldar :

said by Ruin :

Forget about your "spreadsheets" and use some sense.

^^^ I second this.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23295022 Thu, 05 Nov 2009 08:30:39 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23294408 anon : What everyone seems to have overlooked on the topic of a "ruptureless rotation" is the fact that if you use the rotation like it is meant to be used, you will almost always get 25 energy refunded due to Relentless Strikes in the subtlety tree. With that being said, and if you think just a little bit, 25 energy cost for rupture + 25 energy refunded from Relentless Strikes = FREE EXTRA damage. However, if you steadily spam envenom, even with Relentless Strikes refunding energy, it's still costing you 10 energy. And why does everyone hate the 2 set bonus sooo much? You guys act like it should proc 75% of the time. To simply denounce a free damage boost (Rupture) because one doesn't like the T9 bonus, is just plain ignorance. It's not like you're actually sacrificing something to get that bonus. And it doesn't come from crappy gear either so I honestly cannot rationalize any complaints. Forget about your "spreadsheets" and use some sense. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23294408 Thu, 05 Nov 2009 02:13:22 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23290167 anon : What is your characters name and realm? If I remember I might look up your armory from home, can't see it or the wowhead links you gave from work.

Look up Staulkor on Whisperwind. I logged out in my Mutilate spec/gear. My gearscore is at 5205 in that spec. I pulled 7800dps on beasts in ToC25 last night with it. I'm using the standard PvE Mutilate spec, it's what your PvE spec should look like.

Why do you have two 1.8 Relentless daggers? I know there is a 1.4 speed Relentless dagger... I don't really PvP though. Yes you should use those until you get daggers out of ToC25. No content below that level is going to give you a better dagger than that. I'd say use the 232 1.4 OH if you don't have the 1.4 speed relentless.

Gearscore != DPS if most of your gear is PvP gear. Aside from the dagger(s), you should use any other PvP gear, the itemization is awful for PvE. A 219 peice of gear with PvE itemization could give you better DPS than your 245 piece of gear with PvP itemization.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23290167 Wed, 04 Nov 2009 12:17:16 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23288758 ramstein : Hey, my gear score is is almost 5k but im in some pvp gear. I did like 4k dps in toc25 but im trying to squeeze more out with my current gear. Right now im Combat using a 226 mh 232 OH, fist/dagger. I was wandering if i went mut if it would be better dps and over all damage if i were using my relentless daggers. there both 1.80 speed. ilvl245. or 1 of the relentless and my 232 oh 1.4 speed. Even though currently my dps isnt terrible im doing alot less damage overall than someone who has less dps than me. and almost 1/2 as much as the #1. Any advice? I'm not sure on what mut spec is for pve. I just have my pvp one. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks. here's some links to my weps i have. »www.wowhead.com/?item=42244 »www.wowhead.com/?item=47871 »www.wowhead.com/?item=40383]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23288758 Wed, 04 Nov 2009 07:31:24 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23277845 anon : Nobody does Naxx on my server anymore, and I'd rather not do that anymore either, tired of that one, lol.

I ended up 2 manning Kara up to Chess with a holy pally. I just said "LF bored healer to 2 man Kara with" once in trade, and got about a half dozen tells. Got about 200G just from looting, picked up 4 enchant recipes that I never had drop for me in there at 70, and made about 250G on the AH from disenchanting all the gear that dropped in there and auctioning off those mats. Then I went and did all the argent tournament dailies (getting tired of those)

That got me enough to get my dual spec and leave a little for flasks and repairs. Down to 200G right now. I have about 400 stone keeper shards, I think I'm going to turn them in for honor and buy a bunch of epic gems to throw on the AH to get my gold back up.

Now I just need to figure out which spec to use on which fight. Last night I did Combat for beasts and anub, and Mutilate for the other 3 fights in-between. It wasn't the best night, we had a couple people back from a 9th month break who had never been in ToC25 before. One of them exploded next to me in Jaraxxus and killed me + 3 or 4 other people. :\ Then on Faction Champs I had 4 of them focus on me while all my defenses were on CD, so I really didn't get a good feel for things. Any suggestions?

I need to pick up the T9.5 helm for my Mutilate set. In Mutilate I have way too much hit, and not enough expertise. My Combat gear set is balanced a little better, right at the expertise cap, but still more hit than I really need.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23277845 Mon, 02 Nov 2009 10:10:48 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23267780 djlar : run both naxx, I believe you can loot up to 250g on each run... if you don't wipe much better..

A very quick way to earn gold is doing the argent tourney dailies that give you extra 10g.. so it's 23G each. and there are 4 so it's almost 100g right there..]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23267780 Fri, 30 Oct 2009 17:46:22 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23267380 anon : Hrm I really need to do dailies or something and get my gold up. I just re-did both the Mutilate spreadsheet and the Combat spreadsheet with my new gear... Mutilate was a whopping 18dps higher than Combat with the gear I have available. I need dual spec so I can do testing on the dummies and in some raids to figure out which is really better for me.

If I change the "Use Tricks on Cooldown" option to "No", Mutilate shows as 73DPS higher.

In either case they are both so close that dual spec and switching between the 2 depending on the fight just may be the best way to go as I discussed earlier.

I'm down to only about 600G right now, and I still need to gem and enchant the new gear I picked up. :\]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23267380 Fri, 30 Oct 2009 16:58:58 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23265426 crytz : Haha, yeah rogues can compete and do well against any other dps class, we're usually top 5 easily, and most of the time can be on top.

Rogues are the reason I still play WoW, I hated tanking with my warrior, and I dont like to heal, so not many other options besides a mage/lock but their to squishy for me. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23265426 Fri, 30 Oct 2009 10:30:21 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23265361 jofos : I actually played my rogue last night. My rogue was my original 60 and I raid with it in clasic wow. When burning crusade hit I became a feral tank. I leveled my rogue to 80 while helping my son level and pretty much put it on the self except for making flask for other characters or running wintersgrasp and bg.
Well last night a guildy need a dps for h uk. I had already run it with my druid and my piest so I took my rogue. I was the lowest gs in the group around 3500, but I was the top dps at around 2100 dps. That tells me two things; rogues still do good damage and are fun to play and the group that I was with sucked. lol]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23265361 Fri, 30 Oct 2009 10:19:25 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23265152 anon : Thanks. ;) Yeah I will miss the CDs. Hopefully I will get my ToGC10 to a full clear next week, and Anub will drop the heroic version of my Axe or Mace, then it will be back to Combat. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23265152 Fri, 30 Oct 2009 09:41:35 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23265114 crytz : Grats on the dagger man, mutilate is fun but I love having CD's and thats all combat right there. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23265114 Fri, 30 Oct 2009 09:28:07 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23265036 anon : It's officially time for me to go Mutilate. Made it to Twins in ToGC10 with 44 attempts left last night. I got the Heroic Collar of Ceaseless Torment off Beasts, and Heroic Dirk of the Nightwatch (245 1.4 speed Dagger) off Jaraxxus.

Already had a Twin Spike (245 1.8 speed dagger) for a MH sitting in my bags, so this gives me a pair of ilvl 245 weapons to use, which should be better than the 232 MH/245 OH Axes I've been using for Combat.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23265036 Fri, 30 Oct 2009 09:20:05 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23261257 anon : I would just stick with the Agi gems. I have yet to see the spreadsheet recommend ArP gems. It's telling me I should use 10agi/10haste for both the yellow slots on my Heroic Acidmaw Boots, but I can't find anyone with that cut. I've been looking for 1 week now, and no one has it. It looks like 10agi/10crit would give me the same DPS, so I think I am just going to get those cut tonight.

I think even if you are or do get to the point where you might use ArP gems, there isn't that much of a difference between using them and using Agi.

Aside from the slight PvP benefit of using all Agi gems, you also wouldn't have to re-gem if you went back to Mutilate.

My weapons are like yours. 245 MH Dagger and 232 OH Dagger. Or 232 MH Axe and 245 OH Axe. The Axes give me the best DPS though. :P]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23261257 Thu, 29 Oct 2009 15:23:54 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23261089 crytz : Yeah this is true, I'll probably change all my agil gems to armp though.

Weapons are always odd, I have ilvl 245 MH dagger and 232 OH dagg, but 232 MH sword and 245 OH axe lol.

So I'm currently going with combat because I just enjoy it a little more then mut. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23261089 Thu, 29 Oct 2009 14:38:12 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23261075 djlar : Well agility gives you some dodge, so it will halp in PvP..

Man if only I could get at least 1 i245 weapon.. they never drop for me..]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23261075 Thu, 29 Oct 2009 14:34:40 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23260844 crytz : So has anyone really tested out the armor pen or Agil difference? I was mut spec for a while and now I'm combat again but is there really that much of a difference? I have my JC gems arp because its easy to get those but all my other gems are agil.

So my question is, should I go full ARP or keep with what I have? Also does that help in pvp? I dont like changing my gems for pvp/pve and has anyone tried this out? I usually run with full pve gear like I'm sure most rogues do. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23260844 Thu, 29 Oct 2009 13:48:15 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23259130 anon : I still don't really like the whole gearscore thing, but I've given into it since last week I decided to start my own ToGC10 group. I still use wow-heroes to look at people before bringing them in, but gearscore makes a good pre-filter to doing that.

Of those 17 people who out geared them, I'm sure several of them are your tanks and healers, so they really don't count. However as a Rogue, it's not hard to out DPS other DPS classes that out gear you. A big part of it is actually knowing how to play your class. If the other person doesn't know how to play theirs, they could have BiS gear for every slot and still suck it up.

I'm still back and forth for #1 with our Mutilate Rogue who's gearscore is 100 higher than mine in our 25 mans. If I slack off at all, our hunter who's score is about 100 higher than mine beats me.

If I do any 10 mans, I'm almost always #1 and do over 25% of the DPS AND overall damage. 5 mans, I do 45%+ of the DPS/damage, lol. One exception was last night. A shaman who's gerscore was about 200 higher than mine (I'm at 5128 right now), beat me in a ToC10 badge run. We only had 1 person in the group with a score less than 5k, I think it was a healer. Blew through the whole thing in less than 30 minutes (pally buffs were put on once and never refreshed, they still had a couple mins left at the end), no deaths, no wipes. I had an overall DPS of 6500, and hit over 8k on a couple fights. That was even with gimping myself in the middle of the Anub fight. For some reason my OH Axe went red mid fight, the only other OH I had on me was a dagger so I tossed it on quick.

I'm way over both the hit and expertise cap right now with 2pc T9.5 and Heroic Acidmaw boots. Not much I can do about it, it all comes from gear, just need some other gear to drop. I'm hoping to pick up the Bloodfang Hood and swap my Hood of Lethal Intent out for that. That would drop my hit to right at the cap, and give me more armor pen.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23259130 Thu, 29 Oct 2009 09:40:52 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23258706 anon : use the add on called Cutup avaliable on curse. It used to track HFB too, but now it tracks Rupture and SnD It is really awesome add on to use along with Natur.

For all other readers I was recently doing 25 Toc I was 2nd in the damage done overall and number 17th ranked for gear...Gearscore was the addon which is tracked in Recount. I was actually quite supirsed and when i told my guildlies by reposting the data i had a bunch of tells asking me my rotation. Basicly I am constantly hitting mutilate and envenom regardless if SnD still has 15 seconds on it. Snd never falls off and repture never comes down occatiionally hfb came off but thats because i was trying to avoid getting one shotted =D

i am almost hit capped by maybe 50 or so rating

I also found out that after a certain point haste has very little affect. I have the haste tinker from engineering and when SnD is up and my 444 haste rating trinket procs i hit the other haste CD i only get 1 sec weapon attack speed w/over 1k of haste >

so i am about to drop that for an agi enchant if there is one or just raw AP]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23258706 Thu, 29 Oct 2009 06:50:13 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23211487 djlar : Yeah, t8 4 piece bonus way more different than T9, I'm on the Evis combat spec right now, since T9 bonus rupture procs so little it's a joke, I'm one piece away from t9 bonus, even have the trophy but not the emblems, perhaps today I can get the 75 and boost my DPS a bit.

If I could get a seccond "good dagger" I can switch to mutilate for some fights and combat for others.. although armpen doesn't go well with muti..]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23211487 Tue, 20 Oct 2009 09:21:16 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23211451 Sithra : My mutilate Rogue has the grand sum of 0 ArP. 5/5 T8.5 at the moment, was slightly behind a combat rogue who was using 4/5 T9 (245 stuff)

46.7% of my damage totally ignores armor anyway. (based on some checking last night ;) )

That said I haven't avoided gear with ArP on, that's just the way it's worked out. I am slightly high on hit though.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23211451 Tue, 20 Oct 2009 09:11:33 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23211366 djlar : I just crafted myself the i245 Leather Bracers, they have tons of stats including some armpen, that put me 51.1% armpen unbuffed that's w/o banner of victory.. still need that and Grim Toll or the Thorim hard mode trinket, which dropped last night and was taken by a hunter (that had the grim toll equipped)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23211366 Tue, 20 Oct 2009 08:53:33 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23207805 anon : I think we are on the same page with the info, just not necessarily with how we get there. I rarely trust the spreadsheet to give me the answers (not to say its not very useful info though), I'd rather dummy and raid test them - and in those raid/dummy tests, combat mace/mace-dagger is the highest sustained dps I've seen - which based on your post it appears you agree (that is, since I only run ruptureless).

I do run dual specs - have for months with all my 80 toons. Between Mut and combat, about 90% of fights I stay combat for overall dps. Based on your numbers, we are very close in dps - ToC 25 is usually right at 7k after completing all 5 fights - with beasts being lowest due to running and knock backs in phase 3 and Twins easily highest with damage buff.

In all honesty, the variances in these specs is very minute once you have the correct spec and rotation, and gear will then play the biggest part. In truth, my preference is CQC fist/dagger, and if I were to get the 245 fist from ToGC10, I would retire the other combat specs until IC comes out.

BTW - the link I included has all the weapon types for rogues, except axes, and shows the BiS (based on weapon/dps only, specifically the MAEP score, since I agree that Agil is most important stat for combat spec) not gear or rotation). Again, for me just informational, I don't necessarily judge what to use based on any lists or spreadsheets, as I have items that show higher BiS ratings that I do not use due to actual raid and dummy test results. Thats why I encourage other players to do the same.

Good luck in ToGC in the future.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23207805 Mon, 19 Oct 2009 15:24:24 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23206843 anon : Uhm, you linked a re-hosted Shadowpanther fist weapon page.

Which according to Shadowpanther's spec sheet, 18/51/2 Hack'n'Slash and CQC are tied for best Sustained DPS, but worst for burst DPS. Mace/Dagger has better burst DPS in this spec, but worse sustained.

All 3 (Mace, Hack, CQC) 15/51/5 Ruptureless Combat specs are dead even for being best BURST DPS (for Combat), but Mace/Dagger pulls ahead doing slightly more sustained.

51/31/7 Mutilate has the best Burst DPS of any spec, but it also has the worst sustained DPS of any spec.

51/18/2 Ruptureless Mutilate has better sustained DPS than regular Mutilate, but worse burst DPS. It's sustained DPS is not as good as Combats.

I re-ran everything through the spreadsheet(s). 18/51/2 Hack'n'Slash (Standard rupture rotation) with The Lion's Maw (MH) and Lionhead Slasher (OH) ended up being tied with Mutilate (IIRC 51/13/7, I will have to re-run it with the ruptureless Mutilate build) using Twin Spike (MH) and Dirk of the Night Watch (OH). Both were right at 7600DPS. The 15/51/5 Ruptureless Hack'n'Slash was about 200DPS behind with the same weapons. Using The Grinder (MH) and Dirk of the Night Watch (OH) for a Mace/CQC Ruptureless build was even further behind.

Ideally, with what I have on me right now, since Mutilate is better on some fights, and Combat is better on others. Going dual spec, and switching between the 2 depending on the fight would probably give me the best possible DPS I can have over an entire raid. I don't have the gold to try this right now, maybe in a couple weeks.

Last night we attempted ToGC25, but had too many of our regulars missing to get anywhere. I was able to sustain 6800DPS on Gormok (from pull until worms came out), and that was with having to stop DPS to chase Snobolds down. Hunter was in 2nd, doing almost 1000DPS less, and Mutilate Rogue (who again out gears me, however I now have the same MH and OH daggers he's using if I wanted to use them) was a close 3rd.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23206843 Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:29:55 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23196488 anon : In those rare raid occasions that you do need to rupture to get off HfB, you can simple use a single combo pt rupture, immediately hit HfB and get to business on maxxing dps for the next 60 secs. Its a waste of time and combo pts to try to get off a 4-5 pt rupture - just pop one Mut and hit it to get the dps meter moving upward.

Tough call between combat and Mut with those weapon combos - I prefer combat spec and the burst dps is much greater, as well as typically overall especially if fights have a few adds in them. Hack/Slash is the lowest dps spec for combat btw, in terms of comparable weapons - please see the attached link for comparison (weapons only) for all types of rogue weapon choices - Mace/mace (or) dagger is best, Fist/dagger is 2nd and swords are last, as the ArP or crit stacking is much better than the static 5% hack/slash, that will typically equate to 3.5% of your total dps. This link will show you the "best" weapons for each spec, but again, don't trust charts, run the dummy tests for proof. »www.razorvine.net/rogue/fists.htm]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23196488 Fri, 16 Oct 2009 19:46:37 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23193512 djlar : Nope, it's one click and it last a full minute!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23193512 Fri, 16 Oct 2009 10:30:43 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23193405 anon : Didn't think of that. Last time I played Mutilate, you still had to hit it 3 times to stack it, and hit it again to refresh it before it expired. I hated that.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23193405 Fri, 16 Oct 2009 10:22:16 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23193312 djlar : naa, I just look to the HfB button, if it's lit someone is doing some bleed..]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23193312 Fri, 16 Oct 2009 09:55:08 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23193252 anon : Gotta take a closer look at the spreadsheets, but I may be switching to Mutilate.

I picked up Lionhead Slasher (ilvl 245 1.5 Axe), and went lumberjack since I already had The Lions Maw (ilvl 232 2.6 Axe) for a MH. Then later in the same run I picked up a Twin Spike (ilvl 245 1.8 Dagger). I have a Dirk of the Nightwatch (ilvl 232 1.4 Dagger) for an OH in my bag already, so that finally makes for a good mutilate weapon set.

Punched my gear into the Mutilate spreadsheet and it showed a theoretical ~7600dps. IIRC, Combat spreadsheet showed ~7300dps with my current gear. I need to look over the Combat sheet and make sure it matches what I currently have, 'cause I changed some other gear out since the last time I used it.

As far as Expose Armor goes, it's a waste if you have a warrior in your raid, and you should NEVER use if you have a warrior tanking. The Warrior's Sunder Armor gives more armor reduction than our EA does (unless you spec Improved EA which is a waste of talent points). Also a warrior tank needs to be able to sunder for threat generation.

Is there a mod that makes it easier to see if a bleed effect is active on the target? I never have a problem seeing my own garrote or rupture on the boss's debuff bar, but trying to watch for other bleeds may be difficult. My regular 25 man has 1 other Rogue, and I know he keeps rupture up as much as he can, plus we have a couple of warriors, and a few hunters. Can't remember what pets they have, but I know a couple of hunter pets put bleed effects on their targets. With that raid composition, I could easily favor extra envenoms over using rupture. However I know in most of the 10 mans (which are usually pugs) that I do, I'll need to keep rupture up.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23193252 Fri, 16 Oct 2009 09:52:00 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23193022 djlar : Not even for HfB... there's always someone else doing a bleed, either a warrior, feral o another rogue

I did some "tests" by doing Expose Armor and my dps increased about 400-500, evis were crittig higher (almost 14K) when EA was running.. then went live to do it in Anub 25.. was doing 6.5K on that fight by using EA, other fights like beasts and Jaraxxus I was hitting barely 6K..

Now I need a belt with 2 sockets to increase my armpen 40 more, and yes, another weapon, that Anub 25 Axe is sweet, but didn't drop this week.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23193022 Fri, 16 Oct 2009 08:56:13 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23190960 anon : Not enough to justify using it is the simple answer, maybe once ever 30 to 45 secs on average in Mut spec during dummy tests, but no where near the same dps as ruptureless (or near ruptureless as to keep up HfB) while hammering away on Envenom 4 and 5 pt hits.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23190960 Thu, 15 Oct 2009 19:42:32 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23190509 djlar : How often the T9 2 piece bonus from rupture procs? I rarely see a 40 energy "save" during fights (specially bosses), I rarerly use rupture...

almost there for the 4 piece T9 bonus.. just to get a couple of trophies...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23190509 Thu, 15 Oct 2009 18:08:04 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23189905 anon : Yes, you should ALWAYS use wound poison only in combat spec (which should include 3/3 spec in vile poisons) to max dps unless the fight has adds, like Onyxia, and you have T8 2 set bonus - then and only then use Deadly MH. Top dps, for either Mut or combat are ruptureless rotations, focusing only on Envenom hits for Mut and Eviscerate hits for combat. Note: always make sure SnD stays up though, and if absolutely required, use rupture only to get HfB up on Mut spec - if a warrior is in the raid this should never be necessary.

Again, if you don't believe this is a better and higher dps rotation, go do the dummy tests and surprise yourself. Rupture is a waste of combo pts regardless of spec, and the dps it offers is pitiful, as one Envenom/Evis crit is higher total dps than 2 full 5pt rounds of rupture (and i promise you get more than 1 Envenom/Eviscerate off in 32 secs). Just because your gear gives you a special add for rupture doesn't make it worth using, and saying T8 bonuses are better than using T9 gear is laughable, unless you are only talking about energy refresh on the Onyxia fight, then you would actually be right.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23189905 Thu, 15 Oct 2009 16:35:47 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23172358 anon : Right now I am stacking Agi, mostly because I'm waiting to swap out pants before I re-gem, but also 'cause the spreadsheet shows Agi is still best for me to stack. I think after a couple more pieces of gear change I may need to stack ArP instead.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23172358 Mon, 12 Oct 2009 18:02:05 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23170413 djlar : Do you stack armpen with hack and slash? AP? Agi?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23170413 Mon, 12 Oct 2009 11:38:19 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23169904 anon : 10 or 25 man?

I'll have to see if I can find the data for last weeks ToC25, I don't have the data from the ToC10 pug I did on Saturday.

I will get fresh data from ToC25 tomorrow, but I have brand new weapons. ToC10 PuG on Saturday was unbelievably lucky for me. Picked up 3 weapons in the same run. Got Dirk of the Night Watch (1.4 Dagger) off Jaraxxus, immediately enchanted it and replaced Web Death with it. Then Anub dropped both The Lion's Maw (2.6 Axe), and Westfall Saber (1.5 Sword). I was the only melee on the run, no other class could use the weapons so they all went to me.

Axes and Swords were at 0, leveled them to 400 in a Black Temple achievement run later that night, lol. Spreadsheet showed Hack'n'Slash with the Axe/Sword being better than using The Grinder (2.6 Mace) and Dirk of the Night Watch for Mace/Dagger, so I'm trying them out now.

I was #1 for the 5 or so attempts at ToGC25 we made last night. We were missing too many people from our core group, so that went nowhere. I did beat our raid leader who is Mutilate and still out gears me (his gear score is about 100 higher than mine on wow-heroes, he's #5 Rogue on the server, and I'm #40 something now). Beat him on all beasts attempts, and all VoA bosses. So far I'm pretty happy with Hack'n'Slash. We'll see how it goes tomorrow night for a fresh ToC25.

I'm hoping to get Bracers of Swift Death crafted soon, just need to get the crusader orbs, have all the other mats. I have more hit and more expertise than I need after swapping gear around.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23169904 Mon, 12 Oct 2009 10:49:34 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23169821 djlar : Sample size is a full 3-boss fight, like ToC Beasts, then Jaraxxus and Twins, the lowest miss rate was 9%, I don't get why I'm missing so much in beasts, all of them are being hit from behind, so you get parry out of the equation...
My expertise is at 31/31 right now..]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23169821 Mon, 12 Oct 2009 09:34:18 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23158216 Dropper : The white damage hit cap is over 700, but yeah, there's no way someone with 415 hit will miss even 10% of the time. To me that would equate to having a pvp hit rating - about 6%. Fine for opponents at your level, but not bosses who are 3 levels (I think) above you.

Mine is 427 due to a gear mismatch. It'll be fixed when I get the t9 shoulders so I'm not worried, I'm using the 10 man drop from Ulduar that looks like t8. It's alright and will do for another week or so until I finish up on daily heroics.

I have 3 toons to gear and it's difficult to force myself into heroics for my main (the rogue) when I could gearing up my paly healer or messing around with my hunter.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23158216 Fri, 09 Oct 2009 13:45:45 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23157361 anon : Look at the last few responses, we were talking Combat. Or do you only read the first post and skip everything in between? This is really a Rogue discussion, not just Mutilate, not just Combat.

435 is overkill on hit, and as Sithra said, those stats are technically not possible. 15% miss rate your hit would have to be in the low to mid 200's.

Your hit doesn't need to be higher than 317 for your poisons to never miss. Your melee miss should be around 11-13% at that hit rating IIRC. You can do with even less hit depending on your raid make-up, but 317 will make you good to go no matter how the raid make-up ends up. See if you can switch some stats around. If your expertise is not at 26, swap some gear/gems that have hit on them for some that have expertise until your expertise is at 26. Then ditch some hit for more agi to increase your AP and crit. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23157361 Fri, 09 Oct 2009 11:53:58 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23157265 Sithra :

said by djlar

:

I'm at 435 hit and I'm missing 10% ... with a slower off hand.. 15% miss with a faster off hand (i213),

Technically not possible for these stats to occur unless it's a very small sample size.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23157265 Fri, 09 Oct 2009 11:09:29 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23157051 djlar : I'm at 435 hit and I'm missing 10% ... with a slower off hand.. 15% miss with a faster off hand (i213), ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23157051 Fri, 09 Oct 2009 10:30:32 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23156992 Sithra :

said by Staulkor :

Obviously you don't understand Combat builds, which is what we were talking about.

Yeah thanks for that insight on combat builds in a thread about assassination specs.
"Obviously"... jesus wept.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23156992 Fri, 09 Oct 2009 10:19:41 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23156741 anon : Obviously you don't understand Combat builds, which is what we were talking about. Faster OH = more energy regeneration. More energy = more combo point generating moves = more damage done and more DPS. Combat Potency is what does this. "Gives your successful off-hand melee attacks a 20% chance to generate 15 energy". Which is why hit rating is more important for combat. Fewer OH misses = more energy.

For Mutilate, faster OH is not as important, it is only for DP stacks on Mutilate. With the change to Master Poisoner that allows Envenom to not consume DP, it's very easy to keep 5 stacks up, you don't have to worry as much about them dropping off and trying to get them back up quick, so a slower MH can be acceptable, however it's usually better/safer to use a faster. For Mutilate you want a lot of crit, since energy regeneration comes from the Focused Attacks talent, 100% chance to gain 2 energy every time you crit. You only need enough hit rating for specials and poisons to never miss.

Now if your OH is too slow and not keeping your DP stacks at 5 at all times, then you're Envenoms aren't doing max damage since they are based on how many stacks of DP are applied at the time of use. You're also losing DPS from not having 5 stacks ticking.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23156741 Fri, 09 Oct 2009 09:38:27 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23156568 djlar : Yeah, even with my "slow" OH at 1.8secs the boss (which is the one really matters on raid time) gets 5 stacks of poison quick, envenom on muti has a chance of not consuming the poison and on combat the boss will always have 5 stacks regardless.. Now, faster weapons seem to miss a lot more.. so maybe there aren't many more fast OH out there.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23156568 Fri, 09 Oct 2009 08:50:33 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23156185 Sithra : The fast OH is a bit of a myth for moot, I've tested slow and fast over the last year and there really isn't a noticeable difference, it's certainly not going to make any more than around 50dps difference either way. If you have a choice use the one with the higher DPS.

Since the envenom and DP change in 3.2.something my DPS went off the scale, good times.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23156185 Fri, 09 Oct 2009 05:46:31 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23150591 anon : Webbed Death is the only 213 weapon ranked higher on the chart than the 219 Fist you currently have. The dagger would be worse for you for sure.

I feel your pain. I haven't even seen a better OH drop for me, let alone had a chance to roll on one. Most of them seem to have a drop rate of 8% or less. I need to run Ulduar more to increase my chances of seeing something better drop for my OH. Been running ToC10/25 for months, got my MH from ToC10, but haven't ever seen an OH drop. Unless I get into some hard mode ToC10/25 soon, I probably won't see a better MH until Icecrown.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23150591 Thu, 08 Oct 2009 09:43:51 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23147839 Dropper : "Do you have another OH to choose from? That fist is really not very good for us."

Yeah, it's the highest DPS OH I have that's fast, but I also have a lvl 213 1.4 speed sword and lvl 213 1.8 speed dagger. The rest of my weapons are lvl 200 10 man naxx drops.

If the dagger was 1.4-1.6 I'd be using it for sure, but at that 1.8 it might be too slow, I'm not certain. I'd prefer to use it and might test it out in the next raid.

The fist weapon is definitely a compromise, but I've nearly always been forced into using fist weapons because Blizzard seems to object strongly to me seeing a dagger drop in a raid that would actually be useful for my OH.

Can't remember what I put that extra pt into - probably endurance, but thanks for the reminder, I'll move it to CQC if I don't use the sword instead.

The other thing that's bothering me is this obsession with armor pen that Blizzard has. I know Blue talked about overhauling it so it became significantly more useful, but that hasn't happened yet and again, due to my spec it seems haste is more valuable.

So atm I haven't replaced my belt or pendant with lvl 226 badge rewards because they would each cause me to lose 2% haste in return for about 2.2 armor pen. I really don't get why they did that.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23147839 Wed, 07 Oct 2009 18:35:44 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23147149 djlar : Until I can get more viable daggers I won't be switching to muti, I just got the one from ToC 10, it's 1.8 sec dagger, ideal for main hand, now, I need a 1.5 or 1.4 one for OH and then I can go muti.. and that dagger will have to do for Fist/Dagger combat, the other I had it's same speed, less dps of course..

Then I have to re-gem for agility...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23147149 Wed, 07 Oct 2009 16:30:31 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23147069 siscothekid : Good points, im still working out all this little mistakes i make on rotations, rogue is my first 80 and ive learned moust of the stuff the hard way..]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23147069 Wed, 07 Oct 2009 16:16:29 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23147034 dynodb :

said by siscothekid

:

I have been using this rotation and it has worked alot better for me

Garrotte
hfb
SnD
mut
mut
rupture
if SnD if about to wear just envenom eaven if its only one combo point.
If garrotte is a about to wear vanish and remember you also will be getting the energy regen from vanish
then just keep up normal rotation.

With that opening rotation SnD will expire within a couple seconds of hitting rupture. Keeping SnD up with Envenom should be your first priority.

Instead:

Garrote
HfB
SnD
Mut
Mut (if at 3 combo points, if not pool energy)
Envenom
Mut to 4-5 combo points
Rupture
Repeat

There are fights in which it's not possible to open from stealth. Mut then SnD, doing what's necessary to activate HfB and refresh SnD with envenom. Often another player will have bleeds that can be used to activate HfB before you have rupture up.

Don't worry too much about garrote wearing off. Vanishing after overkill wears off to activate overkill again is useful- just don't screw up your rotation for the sake of another garrote; otherwise feel free.

If Rupture has plenty of time left and an Envenom + the next Mut leaves you 4 points, don't burn envenom immediately unless you're approaching energy cap. Instead pool energy a few seconds to around 80 as rupture time allows- you want to keep the Envenom buff up as much as possible in addition to SnD, HfB and Rupture.

It's not usually an issue, but don't let energy build to 100% when pooling energy. A good time to refresh HfB is when rupture still has a few seconds left but energy would cap before it runs out.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23147034 Wed, 07 Oct 2009 16:09:56 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23146619 anon : Do you have another OH to choose from? That fist is really not very good for us. Webbed Death, while a lower item level, is a much better OH than the FL fist. There are several other weapons that drop out of Ulduar that would make a better OH.

The Tankard and Adelar maces are pretty even, so close it'd be hard to tell the difference. Use whichever one has the stats you need more.

You do not stack ArP for 4pc T8. ArP does nothing for Rupture damage, and 4pc T8 is all about Rupture.

The 1pt in CQC when you're Mace/Dagger (or in your case Fist) like that is "wasted" if you put it anywhere else. You'd normally have to spend that on something like Endurance or another non-damage increasing talent. Better to put it there and bump your OH attacks to 41% crit, then throw it somewhere else.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23146619 Wed, 07 Oct 2009 15:36:57 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23146613 siscothekid :

said by Ibezombie

:

Okay since 3.2.2 came out I changed my Mut/Prep pvp spec to straight up assassination spec I have shadowbite and the fleshshaper, bad daggers I know. One with berserking one with mongoose. And the dps in that spec is significantly lower than my combat. I was on onyxia 25 last night and before the whelps came out I was pulling 6.7k dps. Top of the chart. And this is with maces in combat. I thought armor pen got nerfed. I haven't seen a decrease in dps or damage what so ever. Maybe I don't know the assassination spec rotation. So here it is

Garrotte
HfB
Mut
SnD
Mut
Mut
Rupture
Mut
Mut
Envenom
mut
mut
rupture

so on and so fourth until HfB gets low, then I pop that.
I'm specced so that my envenom keeps SnD up so I don't have to refresh that. It seems as if I should be getting better DPS considering in combat I have to save combo points and hit SnD which takes all of them and does no damage. Where here I'm using envenom to keep it up, which, by the way doesn't use my deadly poison. Those crit for usually around 9k.

So why is my combat spec getting 3.7 on heroic dummy and my assassination getting 2.7?

please keep flaming low. I've been combat since I started playing.

I have been using this rotation and it has worked alot better for me

Garrotte
hfb
SnD
mut
mut
rupture
if SnD if about to wear just envenom eaven if its only one combo point.
If garrotte is a about to wear vanish and remember you also will be getting the energy regen from vanish
then just keep up normal rotation.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23146613 Wed, 07 Oct 2009 14:58:42 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23146406 dynodb : Upgraded weapons do (depending on spec and speed) offer a dps increase, but don't expect it to be a huge increase just from a better weapon- especially if you're using a sub-optimal combo like mace / fist.

If you're talking about raid dps, it varies so much depending on the fight, buffs, and RNG that you'll not be consistant enough to really judge the difference.

At your gear level 5k dps is quite good. If you're not dying, doing what you're supposed to on a given fight, and among the top dps for your raid- don't worry about it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23146406 Wed, 07 Oct 2009 14:19:23 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23146212 Dropper : When the new heroic first arrived and I got the lvl 219 mace I decided to switch to maces. Since then I was given the tankard by a guildee and I'm still not sure if it lowers or increases my DPS over the heroic mace.

I've got a few more dailies to do to get the shoulders I need that will drop my hit to the poison cap (currently about 100 over), increase my expertise to that cap (currently 22) and will also increase all my other DPS stats - haste, crit, ap, so I know that will make a difference, along with the energy bonus from 2x t9.

I don't have a fast OH mace so I've been using the fist weapon from Flame instead. I did this because you need a fast OH for the energy bonus from sub and as anyone who's played a rogue for a while knows, the biggest upgrade you can get in DPS always comes from upgrading your weapons to the highest base DPS possible. Other things ARE important too, but this usually works without fail.

However things have stagnated. I did switch to maces because it has a definite DPS benefit, but I can't really see the value in using up a point to get 1% extra crit in an offhand weapon when I'm already at 40% crit on both.

As for armor pen, I've checked the gear on the Lunacy rogue that does the EJ rogue guide and she (he?) is gemmed 100% armor pen. I figure I get almost the same armor pen benefit from my mace spec as she does from her gems, but I don't have her gear so I'm not ready to go full throttle on armor pen.

Gear does make a difference there, you need full lvl 226 gear with either 4xt8 to gem armor pen (which is as good or maybe better than 5xt9 for a rogue because t8 has a significantly better 4x bonus).

But it seems I've stalled on DPS no matter what. I do no better than when I was using lvl 213 weapons, around 5K on tank and spank, my rotations are EXACTLY as stated for combat rogues in EJ (4pts then slice'n'dice, 5 pts then rupt, 4-5 pts and depending on slice'n'dice time either eviscerate or refresh slice'n'dice.. repeat until boss dead).

I use as many speed enhancement as possible simultaneously for maximum energy benefit (that sub talent again) and almost never have to wait for energy for combo building sinister strikes.

So I don't get it. According to what I'm reading I should be doing far more DPS. I still out dps pretty much anyone I raid with by a lot, usually several percentage pts in overall damage above the next best. But unless it's just down to the fights being more complicated, spending more time moving around and not dpsing, I don't get why my DPS numbers don't go up with better gear, and sometimes even go down.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23146212 Wed, 07 Oct 2009 13:53:49 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23144479 djlar :

said by Ibezombie

:

I should use wound poison on both weapons?

If you still have your T8 bonus. no.. it need deadly poison for it to work, most rogues use Wound on MH, Deadly on OH]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23144479 Wed, 07 Oct 2009 08:57:12 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23142666 Ibezombie : I should use wound poison on both weapons?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23142666 Tue, 06 Oct 2009 20:57:07 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23142163 anon : Depending on the specific fight, top rogue dps will be either Mut spec with envenom finish for T9 geared on single target, or combat spec Mace MH/mace/dagger OH for fights with adds. As far as gemming and stats, hit at 315 is critical, as that is poison cap, white damage cap is unattainable and pointless, expertise is next for Mut spec, and needs to be above 25 at a minimum, with auto spec for Exp in combat, hitting 25 is cake, but closer to 36 is much better, next crit - stacking Agil will = higher sustained dps than ArP all day, then ArP and finally haste.

Raid makeup plays a big part as well, as single target dummy practice I am at 3500-3600 dps both specs. In 10's, Mut is almost always better dps single target, but combat cd's will allow more burst damage for fights like XT heart kill for hard mode. 10 mans I am easily over 5k either spec, but usually about 600dps ahead Mut spec single target. 25 mans I am over 7k Mut, about 6.5k combat for non-dps boosted fights with rogue-special fights like Ony 25 at 9-10k when ToT/FoK whelps using Adrenaline.

If you have the 4 weapons to use both specs, you will be top dps every fight depending on adds or single-target if you are geared and using correct rotation. BTW, hack/slash is not top combat dps as the proc rate of 5% is static, whereas if you use combat mace ArP is stacking and added points to dagger crit increase is stacking so white damage is far greater than static 5% hack/slash.

This is based on many raids and numerous dummy tests, not perfect rotations and potential numbers, just run the dummy tests over and over and it is clear, don't trust the calculator. I have 9 232 weapons so the gear tests are equivalent. Also, combat spec should use wound poison only, if you don't you are doing it wrong. Check my toon on Azjol-Nerub if you want to see the specific builds. Now go top the dps charts rogues...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23142163 Tue, 06 Oct 2009 19:16:36 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23121853 anon : Armor chart doesn't show any 232 belts, it goes from 226 to 245.

226 belt from Yogg-Saron 10 man Hard Mode (Soul-Devouring Cinch) has 2 red sockets on it. That would be 3 sockets total with a belt buckle.

LW Recipe belt, "Death-Warmed Belt" has 1 blue and 1 red, so that'd be another 3 socket belt with buckle.

245 belt from Twins ToC25 has 1 yellow socket. The 258 version of that belt (same fight on heroic) has 1 red and 1 yellow.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23121853 Fri, 02 Oct 2009 17:25:22 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23121703 djlar : I could use prismatic on either the helm or where a socket bonus is worth it, if not throw it on a belt bluckle..

I saw that particular rogue had a belt, I think it was 232, that had 2 sockets, do you know where it drops? That's 60 arpen or agi right there instead of the belt buckle alone.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23121703 Fri, 02 Oct 2009 16:19:26 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23121420 anon : 43% crit unbuffed? I don't think it would hurt you to stack ArP with that much crit... where you're at, it's probably 6 of 1, half dozen of the other, you could go either way and get about the same results.

Yes Tirael, we usually stack +20 Agi gems on 95% of our slots. We need 1 blue, 1 yellow, and 1 red to activate our meta. There are some pieces where it's worth it to get the socket bonus, but most it's not. A lot of the upper level gear for a Rogue seems to have blue sockets on it these days. 1 Blue socket, bonus is +4 Agi. Well if you put a Purple gem that is +10 Agi / +15 Sta, you end up with +14 Agi total. In that case you get more of a DPS increase if you put a +20 Agi gem in.

For our yellow sockets we usually use an Orange, Agi + either Exp or Hit, whichever we need more. Purple for the blue socket, but only IF the socket bonus is worth it on the gear with those color sockets. If none of our gear is worth the socket bonus, a Nightmare Tear (prismatic) is used somewhere to get the meta activated.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23121420 Fri, 02 Oct 2009 16:05:58 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23121240 Tirael : A rogue friend of mine stacked agi the way plate dps stacks str. Every socket that he didnt want/need a bonus from had Agi in it. I think in a 25 man with full raid buffs procs and DMG he had something like 2.6k agi. It was pretty ridiculous and he could pulldown some serious dps (6k on freya pre-3.2)
--
“Reality doesn't bite, rather our perception of reality bites.” - Anthony J. D'Angelo]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23121240 Fri, 02 Oct 2009 15:29:21 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23121189 djlar : I meat ArP.. LOL

My crit right now it's a 43.1%, do I need more Agi?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23121189 Fri, 02 Oct 2009 15:19:57 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23119517 anon : Not sure why he'd use AP, unless all his other stats were really over loaded. The point at which you'd use ArP over Agi is if you have more crit than you really need. I suppose you'd use AP if your Agi, ArP, Hit, and Exp, are all at or near cap.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23119517 Fri, 02 Oct 2009 11:04:52 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23119470 djlar : I still have several AP gems I could swith with Agi..

The rogue I was running ToC 25 with had almost all gems with AP, he also had 2 with Agi.

He was combat fist/dagger, although his fist was calamity's, slightly below's mine (from Ulduar 25), but his OH dagger was 245 from ToC 25. He was #1 on dps, even on top of a very well geared and skilled blood DK.

At least on combat I have my two weapons with berserking..]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23119470 Fri, 02 Oct 2009 10:50:54 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23118967 anon : Spec for your best MH weapon.

I'm an enchanter, Mongoose recipe never dropped for me, so I usually enchant both berserk now. I only enchant for other people with their mats, I never use mine to make scrolls or sell enchants or anything, so I usually have all the mats for it on hand. Also weapon upgrades always seem to be few and far between for me.

I wish I had your OH, it would go nice with my MH.

I guess I got lucky with Grim Toll, I think I got that like the 3rd time I ever did Naxx.

Stacking ArP may not be the best way to go. ArP and Agi are very close in EP levels. Agi gems came out with just slightly higher (like 0.01) EP values for me. Even if it was slightly lower than ArP, I'd probably still stack Agi anyway, simply because I would not have to re-gem if I picked up daggers that would put a Mutilate build at higher DPS than my current Combat build with my current weapons.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23118967 Fri, 02 Oct 2009 10:04:06 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23118835 djlar : maces spec isn't cutting it for me, one of the reasons maybe the maces themselves, the main hand one is from H ToC the other from ulduar 25... I only berserk enchant the higher Ilevel, and mongoose the other.. also the most dps one is the off-hand one.

Anyhow I went back to Fist/Dagger combat eviscerate and I'm stacking armpen, will try to get grim toll today hopefully..

I hate the grim toll drop rate, seriously, there are 4 bosses that drop it and I only seen it drop like 4 times since wotlk started!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23118835 Fri, 02 Oct 2009 09:13:44 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23115797 Ibezombie : No I only have 2 points in sub. Just armory me Ibezombie on tortheldrin. Don't pay attention to the Assassination build it's garbage.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23115797 Thu, 01 Oct 2009 17:49:02 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23108000 anon : We have an Enhance/Resto dual spec shaman, and a Resto Shaman IIRC. I used to love playing with Enhance shamans, back when WINfury was cool.

Yes try to get Grim Toll if you don't have it already. Should be easy since people faceroll through Naxx25 weekly on most servers for "badge runs". Best ArP trinket is Mjolner's Runestone, but that only drops off Thorim on Hard Mode. I wish I had that one. Running with Grim Toll and Death's Verdict right now.

I was thinking about gemming ArP to try to get to ~85% ArP (soft cap with Mace and Mjolner trinket, Grim Toll is not far behind that one though), but spreadsheet showed a bigger DPS increase gemming Agi. I still need to switch out a couple gems. Sitting at just under 4100AP unbuffed now. I was up over 6200 AP raid buffed last night, and hit around 8000 AP with double berserker proc + Death's Verdict proc.

I like the latest Combat spreadsheet... tells you what gems you should use in every slot one every piece of gear based on your gear and spec for optimum DPS.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23108000 Wed, 30 Sep 2009 14:55:57 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23108012 anon : What talent build are you using for Mace Spec Combat?

Is it similar to CQC with points moved into Mace Spec. The only one i could find had 13 points in Sub? Does that seem right?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23108012 Wed, 30 Sep 2009 14:55:42 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23107908 Tehuno :

said by Stualkor :

Enhance shaman?

I was back and forth on the meters with ours until I got a couple upgrades, he hasn't had anything drop for him for a couple weeks, so he got left behind a little.

elemental =) i left our enhance in the dust as well. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23107908 Wed, 30 Sep 2009 14:20:29 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23107779 dynodb :

said by Ibezombie

:

If I'm using maces and get the armor pen buff from that I figured I'd see a decrease in my DPS, but since I'm not geared enough to have the ArP cap I didn't see a difference. Does that mean that when I get better gear and I can stack up on ArP I should go something other than maces? I used to be CQC with KT's reach and an OH 1.4 sword from Ulduar 10 man or a dagger. I didn't notice any decrease in crits inbetween using a sword or a dagger in OH so I usually stuck with the sword. I need a better fist with higher dps and better stats but I don't have the raid time. Should I be okay with maces?

Maces are fine; just go with the typical slow MH / fast OH if you can. Is it the absolute top dps spec? Probably not, but generally the difference is small enough that it's not that important unless it's something unusual like combat daggers.

Keep in mind that ArPen scaling is such that the more you have, the greater benefit each point of ArPen provides. Depending on how much you have now, it might be beneficial to gem for it. Some of the top combat rogues I've seen were using ArPen gems almost exclusively. Grim Toll would be a good trinket choice if you have one.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23107779 Wed, 30 Sep 2009 13:59:50 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23107328 anon : Enhance shaman?

I was back and forth on the meters with ours until I got a couple upgrades, he hasn't had anything drop for him for a couple weeks, so he got left behind a little. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23107328 Wed, 30 Sep 2009 13:08:19 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23107204 Tehuno : i beat our rogue on 2 consecutive non gimmick fights last night(beasts and jaraxxus), and i think its got him worried lol! hes been on top for so long, not anymore. hes still CQC afaik. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23107204 Wed, 30 Sep 2009 12:34:53 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23107178 Ibezombie :

said by dynodb

said by Staulkor :

Learn to read? Work on your comprehension a little there?

I didn't say it was bad, I'll agree with you that it's in a good spot, but it is not top. Obviously top for you with whatever gear you have, congrats.

2 of the 3 fights you listed are gimick fights with damage increases on them. Koralon is more accurate indicator.

With end game gear/weapons, Hack'n'Slash is currently on top, followed by Mace/Dagger, followed by Mutilate. They are all usually within like 50-100dps of each other. Depending on the fight 1 may even pull ahead of the other.

If I'm using maces and get the armor pen buff from that I figured I'd see a decrease in my DPS, but since I'm not geared enough to have the ArP cap I didn't see a difference. Does that mean that when I get better gear and I can stack up on ArP I should go something other than maces? I used to be CQC with KT's reach and an OH 1.4 sword from Ulduar 10 man or a dagger. I didn't notice any decrease in crits inbetween using a sword or a dagger in OH so I usually stuck with the sword. I need a better fist with higher dps and better stats but I don't have the raid time. Should I be okay with maces?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23107178 Wed, 30 Sep 2009 12:31:14 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23107116 dynodb :

My reading comprehension is fine, dick.

Yes, I know that they're gimmick fights. They were simply the most recent references I had. And fights in which no one- rogue or otherwise- came even remotely close, including similarly well geared players.

And when you're talking about 2-3 specs being better, is that before or after the most recent patches in which combat got a slight nerf via the ArPen change and Mutilate got a buff via envenom and master poisoner? Is that based on theoretical EJ calculations assuming 100% BiS gear that no one has yet and perfect rotations that frequently aren't possible to pull off? Yawn.

In the real world there is no "better" spec as it's too dependent on the actual boss involved and even then the differences are too insignificant to consider.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23107116 Wed, 30 Sep 2009 12:22:32 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23106896 Ibezombie : Well, I took your guys' advise and changed my spec up. I don't have any other daggers besides shadowbite and fleshshaper. Unless of course it's the Supersticker dagger, which IMO had horrid stats. Anywho I did that and went into an ony 25 in mutilate spec and I did 5k dps. Which was like mehhh... so we wiped a few times. And just to let you know I did not FOK the whelps I was keeping it strictly to single target. But my dps would not go above 5.2k. So we wipe again (pugs on my server suck ass, but this was basically my 25 man dps check) and I went back to combat. Pulled almost 9k not even trying. I guess the gear I've got just works better than my Assasssination gear so I was just going to change it back to my mut prep for pvp. LOL @ me copying the wrong spec with talented and paying 50g to add the broken assassination. Anyway I think I'll just stay combat. It's what I know, it's what I like, and regardless of me not being top dps, I'm still having fun and the only thing that will be above me is usually other rogues. I don't have the raid time to get superbadass weapons (that ended with a promotion that requires a LOT of at home work.) So at this point I'm just getting on to relieve stress and get in some quick raids (VOA, ONY, EOE) or 5 man heroics with the guild (which are a joke after you've been to Ulduar and gear up)

I appreciate all your guys' input and help and it will more the definitely help out someone else looking for a good mutilate spec.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23106896 Wed, 30 Sep 2009 11:54:29 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23106537 anon : You don't want to use Evis over Envenom if you are Mutilate.

Ruptureless cycle (Evis only) is for Combat.

Look at Aldriana's latest spreadsheet (something beta 4) on EJ. Put your gear and your current spec in, up at the top it will show either "High Rupture", "Low Rupture", or "Evis Only" as your cycle. Well on the Combat spreadsheet anyway, I haven't looked at the Mutilate sheet (they are separate), 'cause I don't have any daggers worth using for Mutilate right now.

With 4/5 T8.5, High Rupture (Rupture is top priority and should never be down, you probably won't have time to get any Evis in) is the cycle for top DPS at that gear level.

When you have a few other 245 pieces, it finally becomes worth it to drop the 4pc T8.5 bonus in favor of a 245 piece that occupies one of those slots. Then you might switch to Low Rupture (alternate rupture and evis while keeping SnD up) cycle depending on how much ArP you have at this gear level.

With more 245 gear, and ArP close to the cap, Evis only cycle comes out on top. Keep SnD up at all times, and Evis every time you have 5cp. You drop Blood Splater, and 1 point from Ruthlesness for Improved Evis, and substitute Rupture glyph for Evis glyph. This is the current top, but only by a very small margin. It's odd because the T9 bonus needs Rupture to work, but you actually do more DPS with T9 gear on not using rupture (as combat)

You would never do Evis only for Mutilate. There's no reason to not have Master Poison, which now leaves your Deadly stacks up after an Envenom. You should already have Vile Poison, which increases Envenom damage by the same amount that Improved Evis increases Evis damage. CttC keeps your SnD up every time you Envenom, you need a bleed effect active for HfB, so there's no reason to not be using Rupture.

I think the same rule applies for breaking T8.5 bonus when it comes to Mutilate, you should have 4 or 5 pieces of ilvl 245 gear BEFORE you break the bonus, and you almost need that just to break even. From then on your DPS should start going up. I decided to break mine with a couple pieces of 245, and a couple of 232. I'm only about 200-300DPS ahead of what I was with 4pc T8.5 right now with this Evis only combat cycle.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23106537 Wed, 30 Sep 2009 11:07:53 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23106372 anon : Learn to read? Work on your comprehension a little there?

I didn't say it was bad, I'll agree with you that it's in a good spot, but it is not top. Obviously top for you with whatever gear you have, congrats.

2 of the 3 fights you listed are gimick fights with damage increases on them. Koralon is more accurate indicator.

With end game gear/weapons, Hack'n'Slash is currently on top, followed by Mace/Dagger, followed by Mutilate. They are all usually within like 50-100dps of each other. Depending on the fight 1 may even pull ahead of the other.

I am currently #60 on my server (out of over 3000, meaning I'm in the top 2%) for all Rogues according to Wow-heroes. My guild leader/raid leader is Mutilate, and he is currently sitting at #5 (he was #2, but a couple others pulled ahead last week). In ToC25, I out DPS him on Beasts, sometimes Twins, and Anub. We go back and forth on Faction Champs, and he he beats me on Jaraxxus because he stays on him the whole time for interrupts while I chase the sisters around when they spawn. I out DPS him in all of VoA, and on Ony. It's very close though. He's a good player, and I have to try really hard to beat him due to the current gap in gear. If I screw up or slack off at all, I drop a spot or 2. It's usually him, a hunter, and myself battling for top 3 in our raids.

If you're doing 7K+ DPS, you're probably in the top 2% on your server as well, which means there are very few Rogues out there that can compete with you. Chances are unless you have another in your guild that raids with you and is in that top 2% too, you won't come across one that can compete with you. Not counting my guild master/raid leader, I don't think I've ever grouped with another Rogue on our server that is even close to the same level as either of us. Usually if I PuG something and there happens to be another Rogue in the raid, they don't even do half the DPS that I do.

If I set of daggers dropped that were better than what I have now, I'd switch to Mutilate and see if I can put out more DPS than before. There's a couple daggers that are better than what I have now, and I probably have a better chance of picking them up, than picking up the best mace or axe out there.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23106372 Wed, 30 Sep 2009 10:39:28 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23106339 dynodb :

said by crytz

:

I agree there, I'm putting out about 9k on XT as well and on average about 6k+ on most fights that dont require anything other then dps.

I did just get 2 ilvl 245 drops last night which I'm kind of scared to dump my 4 set t8.5 bonus for but I figured I'll try it out and see how it goes. I got the waist from twin and the leggings from the 2nd boss. I was thinking of using evis instead of evenom but maybe I'll keep the same rotation.

stalkr/smolderthorn if anyone can get to the amory.

Don't be surprised if you see a loss in dps; the T8.5 4-piece bonus is pretty good and the T9 bonuses suck ass in comparison. From what people have posted, going from T8.5 4-set to T9.245 2-set is a loss of dps.

Currently I'm using the T9.245 shoulders, with ilvl 245 pants in the bank. Not considering dropping the T8.5 4-set until I get another T9.245 piece, which would give me the 2-set bonus for both T8.5 and T9.5 plus the ilvl 245 legs. Even then I'm not sure it would be worth it.

Clashrogue - Feathermoon is my rogue.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23106339 Wed, 30 Sep 2009 10:32:59 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23106119 crytz :

said by dynodb

said by Staulkor :

Mut isn't on top right now, it's a close 2nd or 3rd depending on what gear you have available. Play around with it until you figure out what is best with the gear you currently have.

I agree there, I'm putting out about 9k on XT as well and on average about 6k+ on most fights that dont require anything other then dps.

I did just get 2 ilvl 245 drops last night which I'm kind of scared to dump my 4 set t8.5 bonus for but I figured I'll try it out and see how it goes. I got the waist from twin and the leggings from the 2nd boss. I was thinking of using evis instead of evenom but maybe I'll keep the same rotation.

stalkr/smolderthorn if anyone can get to the amory. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23106119 Wed, 30 Sep 2009 10:01:48 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23105961 dynodb :

Tell it to my damage meters. There are likely others on my server that can top my mutilate DPS, but if they exist, I've not played with any of them. This weekend pulled 9202 dps on XT-002; was pulling over 7k before the heart even dropped. 8400 dps on Hodir. 7400 dps on Koralon in VoA.

Mutilate is in a very good spot right now.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23105961 Wed, 30 Sep 2009 09:33:06 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23102921 anon : KT Doesn't drop a 232 dagger... that dagger is 226, 1.8 speed, good MH, very bad for OH.

I don't think you would see any less FoK DPS in Combat.

Mut isn't on top right now, it's a close 2nd or 3rd depending on what gear you have available. Play around with it until you figure out what is best with the gear you currently have.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23102921 Tue, 29 Sep 2009 18:50:18 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23102860 djlar : I have that 232 Dagger for mut (don't recall name but KT 25 drops it) the OH is the "murder" from Seph 25, not doing very well with that pair, even if murder it's 1.5 but has low damage, 20DPS less or so.

Now with the FoK 'nerf', mut is more ideal for FoK spam (Onyxia whelps anyone?), I specced mut for my 2 Ony fights, over 12K DPS, 2M damage on whelps from knives.. since the moonkins, mages and locks are focused on Onyxia, a muti rogue is ideal to clear up whelps, other melee can focus on the big adds, after all whelps are out or low rogue can help with adds]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23102860 Tue, 29 Sep 2009 17:28:38 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23102550 dynodb : First off- your spec is broken.

Lose the three points in Imp Evicerate. You should almost never be using Eviscerate; you can pretty much take it off your keybinds as there are almost no mobs immune to poisons anymore. Drop another two points from CQC. Put the five points in Relentless Strikes- 25 energy refunded from Envenom and Rupture is hugely important.

Find a fast OH dagger, preferably 1.4 speed. This is mainly for more Focused Attacks procs in addition to Deadly Poison stacking faster. Buy another T8.5 piece with badges so you at least have the 2-set bonus.

If you can open from stealth behind the target (not always possible)-

Garrote
HfB
SnD
Mut to 4-5 combo points
Envenom
Mut to 4-5 combo points
Rupture
From there:
Every 4-5 combo points, envenom. Pool energy- don't use mut every time it's up after an envenom unless you need to; you want to maximize the time that the envenom buff is up.

Keeping SnD up with Envenom is your first priority, followed by HfB then rupture. During boss fights, vanish sometime after the Overkill buff wears off for another 20 seconds of Overkill.

Combat rogues have an advantage on bosses with a burn phase such as the XT heart, but otherwise mutilate is hard to beat right now in terms of DPS- for any spec of any class.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23102550 Tue, 29 Sep 2009 16:34:37 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23101773 anon : The crit increase affects both hands, you just only see the increase on your paper doll when you have one in the main hand.

Example, with my build, 5/5 Mace and 1/5 CQC, I don't see the 1% crit when I look at my character, but I do still get 1% increase in crit chance to my OH attacks because I have a dagger in my OH.

Now if you do 5/5 CQC and 1/5 Hack'n'Slash, your paper doll will show 5% extra crit, but that crit will not actually apply to the sword in your OH, so you might have say 40% crit rating showing, but only your MH is getting that, your OH would only be getting 35%.

You said i129, typo I see 219 is what you meant if that's the mace you have.

What 232 dagger do you have? 232 fist with 232 OH dagger is best if the dagger is at least 1.5 (1.4 would be preferred) for the weapons you ahve.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23101773 Tue, 29 Sep 2009 14:26:54 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23101547 djlar : That's the one I have.. LOL...

Why not a sword in the offhand? the 5% bonus crit from talents comes only from main hand, off-hand doesn't add to the crit, as long as it is fast it should suffice.. right?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23101547 Tue, 29 Sep 2009 13:47:55 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23101099 anon : If by KT's Dagger you mean Sinister Revenge (only one I can think of), you don't want to use that as an OH, way too slow.

Remorse is a good OH, but being a sword makes it not that great for a Fist/Dagger build. ;) You could put that 1 point you'd normally end up wasting on something else into sword spec, and it would work OK, but a good MH sword would be better to go with it. I think that is probably your best bet until you either pick up a good MH Sword to go with that OH Sword, or a better OH Dagger to go with the good MH Fist you have now.

The only mixed weapon spec that works great is Mace/Dagger (Fist/Dagger and Axe/Sword don't count as mixed weapon since their talents cover both weapon types). It used to be the best, after last patch, now Axe/Sword (hack'n'slash) has supposedly pulled slightly ahead.

Or run H ToC until Adelar's Battlestar drops for you, great mace, would go well with the 232 OH Mace you said you have.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23101099 Tue, 29 Sep 2009 12:44:34 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23100885 djlar : I'm thinking to going back to fist/fast offhand combat spec with Evis on it, since my maces aren't still the best (a 232 fast offhand and a i129 slow main had) with mongoose enchant.

My Fist is the i232 Main hand from Uld 25 and I can either choose the i232 dagger or the remorse for offhand, all 3 with berserking..

What do you thinK? Ket'thuzad's dagger or Razorscale's remorse for offhand?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23100885 Tue, 29 Sep 2009 12:13:06 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23100686 anon : I don't have 2pc T9 yet, I dropped 4pc T8/8.5 for a 245 chest and 232 gloves, but still have the T8.5 gear in my bags.

For ruptureless, I put 3/3 improved evis, and swapped rupture glyph for the evis glyph.

My average evis crit is just under 12k in 10 mans. I haven't gotten a good average for 25 man yet, 'cause we did Twins after I switched... 35K Evis crit on that one, lol.

It seemed like with 4pc T8 bonus rupture crits were 50/50, regardless of if my crit rating was above or below 50%.

Look up Staulkor on Whisperwind before tomorrow. I might be picking up a 2nd T9 (245) piece tonight when we do ToC25, if I have enough points to win a trophy, I spent most of them on Death's Verdict trinket Sunday, only have about 400 left, and trophies have been going for 700+.. I will probably switch back to using rupture after I get that set bonus, but might keep my spec the same way.

My gems are all screwed up since I moved some gear around, might be regemming before I raid tonight as well.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23100686 Tue, 29 Sep 2009 11:57:19 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23100674 anon : Would someone be able to post their mace spec? I got two tankard o terror's yesterday and wouldnt mind trying out the mace spec.
I will be using a dagger OH. The second tankard is to save for a few months before the AH.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23100674 Tue, 29 Sep 2009 11:56:42 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23100609 Darkspite : Your rotation looks pretty solid. Sometimes you can sneak an extra envenom (or two) in before you need to rupture again.

As said before, you want a fast OH dagger for energy procs; Expertise is an important stat for Mut rogues, more so than combat; Your hit may be low and so you're getting partial resists on your poison procs (resists do not show on recount); You want to run Instant poison MH and Deadly OH.

And there's a sweet spot on all dragons that is considered "behind" which is just behind the foreleg and just in front of the rear leg. Garrote here and stab away :)

~Darkspite
Azgalor]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23100609 Tue, 29 Sep 2009 11:32:15 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23100597 djlar : I only use rupture for the T9 bonus proc, but it's a 1 or 2 pts.. since it no longer crits w/o the T8 bonus..

On combat I'm using envenom as second finisher, it crits to 11-12K! and the 5 stack poison builds up very quick.

How's the eviscerate spec now? Maybe I try that instead of envenom, it should crit 10K+...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23100597 Tue, 29 Sep 2009 11:30:19 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23096651 anon : That OH is too slow. I had a 1.6 OH Mace, did some reading on EJ, decided to try and swap to a 1.4 OH Dagger (Webbed Death for now), and move 1 point into CQC, huge increase in DPS.

I was worried about the ArP "nerf" too, but it's not quite what you think. It's just capped at 100% now. Before it was possible to reduce armor by more than 100%, and it should not have been. Now anyone who was hitting over 100% ArP will see a reduction in their DPS (until they re-gem and increase another stat to even it out). If you were never above 100% you won't notice the difference.

You need 85% ArP from gear with 5/5 Mace Spec, but no higher than that or you're wasting stats.

I've been playing with a ruptureless spec and cycle, but I will probably switch back. I'm only at 67% ArP when my trinket procs, not quite high enough for running ruptureless yet.

Your OH weapons are what are holding you back. Fleshaper is too slow of an OH for Mutilate, you don't want 2 slow high damage weapons for that anymore like you used to, you want 1 slow MH, and fastest OH again.

Same with your combat spec, 1.6 OH is too slow. You want a 1.4 OH. There aren't any good OH Maces, so if you're running with a MH Mace, an OH dagger 1 with 1 point in CQC is best. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23096651 Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:42:51 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23096435 djlar : Maybe you got lucky and didn't get tail swiped.....

Only drake that doesn't tail swipe is Malygos (that I know of).

the area of the swipe of Onyxia is huge, a pixel of 2 behind her leg sends you flying to the whelp nest... good luck..]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23096435 Mon, 28 Sep 2009 16:28:05 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23096113 Ibezombie : I opened up with garrotte on ony all the times ive been, what's so hard about it? I even open with garrotte in combat on ony. The tank grabbs her and instantly faces her away from raid so I have no problem getting behind her to open with it.

Since there were no comments on my rotation does that mean it's correct?

My maces are aldears battlestar and a 1.6 226 oe 232 from Ulduar aldars battlestar has mongoose and the ulduar one has berserking, its only 800g my server for berserking.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23096113 Mon, 28 Sep 2009 15:30:42 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23095917 Rorque :

said by djlar

:

If only the tankard dropped....

I've managed to get three of those Tankards and haven't seen a mount or remote yet. lol]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23095917 Mon, 28 Sep 2009 14:57:15 EDT Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23095773 djlar : Good luck opening with garrote on Onyxia.. LOL...

I have a 232 shanker and the "murder" one, I need a better off-hander, I'm doing much less dps than more geared muti rogues. Even if I have berskerking on both.

I think combat maces is working much better, also with a i219 mace, but these 2 have mongoose (cause I'm poor), mongoose procs way less than berserk.

If only the tankard dropped....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23095773 Mon, 28 Sep 2009 14:36:51 EDT [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23095461 Ibezombie : Okay since 3.2.2 came out I changed my Mut/Prep pvp spec to straight up assassination spec I have shadowbite and the fleshshaper, bad daggers I know. One with berserking one with mongoose. And the dps in that spec is significantly lower than my combat. I was on onyxia 25 last night and before the whelps came out I was pulling 6.7k dps. Top of the chart. And this is with maces in combat. I thought armor pen got nerfed. I haven't seen a decrease in dps or damage what so ever. Maybe I don't know the assassination spec rotation. So here it is

Garrotte
HfB
Mut
SnD
Mut
Mut
Rupture
Mut
Mut
Envenom
mut
mut
rupture

so on and so fourth until HfB gets low, then I pop that.
I'm specced so that my envenom keeps SnD up so I don't have to refresh that. It seems as if I should be getting better DPS considering in combat I have to save combo points and hit SnD which takes all of them and does no damage. Where here I'm using envenom to keep it up, which, by the way doesn't use my deadly poison. Those crit for usually around 9k.

So why is my combat spec getting 3.7 on heroic dummy and my assassination getting 2.7?

please keep flaming low. I've been combat since I started playing.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23095461 Mon, 28 Sep 2009 13:47:17 EDT