http://www.dslreports.com/forum/3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23134820 en Sat, 11 Feb 2012 11:44:42 EDT Sat, 11 Feb 2012 11:44:42 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23335687 [Druid] Icecrown loots for bears
Finally, we're getting to see a bit of the gear in Icecrown. I'm really shocked how long it's taken; usually we have most of the loot tables by this point in the PTR. This might mean that the PTR is going to take extra long...or that the gear is just going to have some issues.

There isn't enough to give a BiS list like normal, so I'll just be doing some analysis of it for bears (and later, for cats).

The TLDR part: T10 is great, save for that glaring lack of expertise.

First off, the links to the list of gear are at MMO champion here (for random drops, T1o pieces), here (for 5man and QD rewards) and here (for Emblem of Frost purchases).

On getting the tier gear: (thanks, Copey) - they're going to do something similar to how they did ToC tier gear. What happens is that you spend emblems of frost to buy the lowest level T10 gear. Then, you use that gear AND a token gained from 25-man to purchase the next level of T10 gear. It's not clear whether the tokens are slot-specific, class specific or what - but that's the basic system.

The first thing to note is the huge jump in T10 vs T9 and agility. For instance, the T9 hard mode chest piece has 136 agi and 153 stam; the T10 chest piece has 162 agi and 162 stam. The stam is going up as we'd expect, but a jump of 26 agi from an ilvl increase of only 6? That's pretty amazing. It may be that the tier pieces are overbudget or they're not done tweaking. It's odd that there exist so much agi on all the pieces, honestly.

The second thing to notice is that none of the T10 pieces have any expertise on them. None have any blue sockets either. None have hit.

Again, this may change. But I am very skeptical. For starters, we didn't see drastic changes on gear when it hit the PTRs prior to this. We saw changes in things like the set bonuses, but the actual gear stats tend to be fairly easily finalized. Same with sockets. We might see a random change here and there (like correcting that +5 spellpower socket bonus on the T10 gloves) but my gut feeling is that this is what it's going to be like, going forward.

The other observation is that the tier pieces have steadily been more and more itemized for cats. This is never been more the case than T10. Every single T10 piece has huge amounts of agility and armor pen - every single piece! The 5 pieces of T10 by themselves give 444 armor pen and 726 agility. They have zero hit and zero expertise on them - which is awesome for cats, who tend to not care that much about those things anyway and are swimming in hit. Every socket is red or yellow, and all the socket bonuses (save the aforementioned hands) are agi.

They're almost perfect for cats.

But as mentioned before, this makes them less than ideal for bears.

There are options for bears - but because the T10 set bonus is so strong for bears, those options come down to essentially one thing: what one non-tier piece will you take? And so far, the answer looks to be the Emblem of Frost offtier chest piece, which provides 92 expertise and is otherwise itemized the same as the tier piece. I don't honestly expect this to change either; I suspect that there won't be any legs or head pieces with that high of expertise, and hands/shoulders won't have that much expertise due to their lower itemization point total.

There are other good choices for bears, such as the crafted leather boots.

But honestly? It may come down to whether or not you can deal with socketing expertise in your gem slots. And my suspicion is that it will be down to that - if you can afford the EH hit, socketing expertise may be a very good choice to make up for this lack in other gear.

The purchaseable gear via emblems appears to be consistently full of win. The tanking cloak provides a ridiculous 849 armor. The chest is great and looks to compete with the best of things out there. The waist is also very decent. I fully expect that I'll be racing to buy the chest and the cloak first and second - likely the cloak, given that they tend to be cheaper. There's also a set of gloves, but again - you don't want these since you do want the T10 set.

On the weapon side, there are three new ones so far. There's a fairly decent weapon that's comparable to hard mode Twin's Pact. The reward from the Quel'Delar chain is lower level and isn't socketable, but does have expertise; it's definitely worth doing the chain if you don't have a hard mode weapon yet. And then there's a drop from heroic Icecrown 5-man that's...kinda meh, actually. But is at least an upgrade from Marrowstrike and better than Twisted Visage due to the blue socket.

Jewelry wise, there's nothing that grabs me. Most jewelry has either hit or parry on it. No sockets, no armor. Nothing that makes me ooh and ah like Clutch of Fortification did.

And no jewelry that provides any expertise. Only one non-leather piece that does other than that weapon - and that's a cloak from the 10-man which you'd be insane to grab compared to the buyable one.

Finally, there is a purchaseable trinket that provides 228 stamina base and has a decent on-use ability. Wow. I did mention earlier that I wouldn't put it past Bliz to do this sort of thing for tanks. There ya go.

Anyway, if you're a bear you should be hoping for rings and necks to have tons of expertise. And hope for at least one belt/bracer to have it too. Or...hope for them to reitemize the gear, which i suspect they won't be doing. Or hope for some random tanking trinket with a ton of expertise and stamina...somehow."

Ref:
»wowthinktank.blogspot.com/2009/1···ats.html]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23335687 Fri, 13 Nov 2009 10:03:20 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23265378 [Druid] Use this spec AT YOUR OWN PERIL, EARTH HUMAN

That's a...fox? And a...tasmanian devil? Google images never fails me.

One of the odd things that I see from time to time is people armorying me to get the 'default' spec for tanking, using it blindly because they assume that if I'm doing it, it's optimal.

Well, naturally it is. I am the allmighty Kalon, and nothing I say could ever be wrong.

The question you should ask yourself is this: if Kalon's doing the optimal spec, what is he optimizing for? And with that, I bring you the totally wacky 56/15 spec. Or here, if you like the armory.

Okay, the first thing you're probably thinking is: the hell?

Most of the stuff is the same as what I've mentioned in the bear FAQ and even in the antiquated core tanking talent post. But there are some oddities that I'll mention. First, though, let me explain the reasoning.

This is a tanking talent tree only for main tanking, and it assumes that during a fight you will only be tanking. Cat DPS is incidental. Tanking when not being attacked is not the issue and should not be accounted for. This is also not designed to tank multiple adds.

Furthermore, this is for specifically tanking Anub'arak in heroic mode. For Anub'arak, you do not want improved Leader of the Pack; the healing is too random to count on, but gives too much healing to want to keep around. As such, removing it is very good; for our kill, removing it removed about 300,000 healing, which essentially meant removing 2100 HPS on the boss.

It also assumes essentially infinite rage situations; while tanking, you're expected to be taking massive damage. Rage should not normally be an issue.

With these things in mind, here are some of the controversial calls.

No Omen of Clarity. If you have infinite rage, Omen of Clarity is pointless for bear tanking; it gains you nothing. It's unpredictable anyway. It's essential for good cat dps (even with bear talents), but since we don't care about that in this spec, it's gone. It's essentially one point wasted.
No Ferocity. This is such a no-brainer to take; druids have been trained since birth to pick this. 5 less rage on mauls, swipes, and mangles? Of COURSE this is a good talent.
Except that in infinite rage situations, it's not that important. It does mean that with a streak of avoidance you will get rage-starved; this happened to me a couple times. It also means that it's very, very important to pull with a full 40 rage (or more)But for the most part I didn't miss it when tanking Anub', or Beasts, or Twins. It's not necessary to get to tier 2 either if you're taking Feral Aggression.

No Improved Leader of the Pack. Normally this is something that at least one feral in the raid should have; it's stabilizing and a decent amount of heals, and usually points are there for it. In this case, however, Anub'arak needs to have exactly the right amount of deliberate and predictable healing so that we can limit the healing as much as possible. That means unpredictable heals that we can't rely on to passively heal a group have to go. Honestly, we didn't miss this at all in the fights save perhaps Faction Champs.
Feral Aggression and Infected Wounds are needed. This is because our warrior is going maximum threat/deep wounds, which means no improved Demo Shout. And I need to make sure the slow effect is up on my target, so Infected Wounds is required too. This is a requirement for our fights in general, so no big change here.
Improved Mangle AND Master Shapeshifter? Wow. Yeah, that's right - with the above changes I have enough points to take basically anything that improves threat throughout the fight. King of the Jungle isn't taken because I can't use it; I must not have 25% armor reduction. But I can take the above. Improved Mangle actually deserves some credit here. Because I'm having to do things like demo roar and refresh my lacerate stack early so that neither drop off during freezing slash, the rotation doesn't look like a rotation so much as a priority system. And if you're doing a lot of other things anyway, being able to mangle more actually improves your rotation and your threat quite a bit. I need to work out exactly how much, but I'd ballpark it at more like 4-5% instead of 2.5-3%. It also helps uptime with your Idol of the Corrupter, so that's nice too.

And on this, as much damage as you can muster is good. For our kill I managed to do 2800 DPS, which isn't bad on a single target using primarily survival gear.
No Maul Glyph. Another one that I miss - but if you've read me before, you know that I think glyphs are the new flask. Still, this has some explanation. I don't actually care about growl that much on Anub'arak, but it was important that my mauls don't hit another target. This is because occasionally a burrower would get close enough to me that I'd hit it with maul if I wasn't lucky - and that might mean that it went to me instead of the add tank. That meant instant wipe. Easy to fix - just swap glyphs back and forth, and you're set.

The end result was a fairly strong MT build. Only a couple times on bad avoidance streaks did I have any rage issues. My DPS sucked when switching to cat on adds, but not so much that it mattered hugely.

Heroics, though...were a totally different experience. It was like playing through molasses. Just painful. Fortunately I outgear content enough that if need be I'll just switch to my DPS spec and tank that way. I won't have PotP or NR or a lot of important tanking talents, but it won't matter. I'll have the essential speedy attacks, and taking more damage will mean more rage.

It's also a really horrible spec to solo in without imp lotp.

Ony was also a bit hit and miss; the transition from p2 to p3 left me with a lot of threat to make up, and not a lot of rage. It wasn't the funnest thing ever.

Still - it was great to have a substantial threat gain from what I had had before. Mauls hit for more, and mangles were going off all the time. It felt a lot more in control, and most importantly I did significantly more damage while keeping all of my necessary survival talents. If you want to go against some of the 'standard' experiences - you might try it.

IF. YOU. DARE.
Posted by Kalon at 10:35 AM
Labels: Anub'arak, bear, druid, talent
7 comments:

jonhuang said...
I had a spec like that when tanking Sarth+3. Only I dropped all my damage and threat mechanics so I could pick up Balance of Power for the chance to resist spells. Worked pretty well.

Still, you have to be jealous of Deathknights and the incredible flexibility of three different tanks specs.

October 28, 2009 2:47 PM

pedro said...
with t10 set bonus, i guess king of the jungle becomes a pure threat talent, so it might be a good option in the future.

October 28, 2009 4:01 PM

Keltar said...
Kalon:
Love your work! And would realy like to hear your take on this:
»forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa···42&sid=1
I think this even changes the way we should be picking gear right now.
Like moving the wowhead values for defense and dodge 1/3 of the original value ?

October 29, 2009 11:54 AM

Anonymous said...
A combat parse of our best p1 & p2 shows ~80k healing from ILotP in ~6 minute period.

I'm very curious as to how you calculate the 300k healing from ILotP alone in P3.

With crit rates being what they are, and with the enforce ICD ILotP healing is actually very consistant.

October 29, 2009 3:50 PM

Kalon said...
Keltar, I'll post about that either tonight or tomorrow, since I'm getting tired of saying the same thing over and over. But yeah, it should reduce defense, dodge and agility some in value.

Anon, I don't know what to tell you other than my logs have substantially more healing than that in our P3. Perhaps most of that healing before that was overheal? In our P3 where I had it, imp lotp was responsible for 370k healing.

It's not consistent enough to count on for saving people from LS. It only goes off every six seconds, and that's if they crit; if they don't for some reason, it can be as long as 8 or 10. The 4% health is more than enough to heal them, but all it takes is one or two bad crit streaks and they're dead.

October 29, 2009 4:00 PM

Anonymous said...
That is a point, I'll take another look at it when we get into P3.

I still think it's a pretty big jump to assume that a large portion of ILotP healing is 'bad' and directly translates to healing on the boss. I'd be interested in your logic for this.

Seems to me that ILotP, Judgement of Light & Healing Stream totem would combine to allow nearly no outside direct healing required to deal with the leach on melee, although a HoT may be useful.

And what would be your suggestion regarding Judgment of Light?

October 29, 2009 4:18 PM

Kalon said...
For us, Anon - all healing via imp LotP was overhealing because we knew we had enough healing via healing stream or JoL to not worry about it. Therefore I can absolutely say with certainty that all imp LotP healing was bad. The only healing that it wasn't 'bad' for was healing on tanks.

The logic is as follows: we aren't going to heal anyone more than they need to be healed. For most people that meant zero direct heals. Any healing beyond that would simply be drained again via leeching swarm over time. So if you are sitting at 1k health, you'll get hit by leech for 300. If you were sitting at 1.8k health thanks to LotP, you'd be hit by leech for 480. That's 180 health taken that heals him that wouldn't have happened otherwise, except for imp lotp since we were already assuming JoL.

JoL heals more than enough for melee. Healing stream was used only for the ranged and for a couple of people like the hunters/rogues who would occasionally go out of range and not be attacking Anub. On our kill, we didn't use LotP at all, nor did we heal anyone directly aside from PC targets and the tank.

So at least for us - imp lotp was completely superfluous.

October 29, 2009 5:21 PM"

Ref:
»wowthinktank.blogspot.com/2009/1···ril.html]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23265378 Fri, 30 Oct 2009 10:22:06 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23261916 So while they are decreasing dodge. They are also going to increase stam with gear and according to them the bosses will not be hitting harder just more often.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23261916 Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:50:48 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23261809 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23261809 Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:30:12 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23261776 said by drew:

I think it is relevant esp. With the conversation you were having previously.

Does the guide still have as much relevance come 3.3?
It doesn't change anything. Armor and Stamina are the building blocks of bear tanking. Remember this is a bear GUIDE thread not a chit chat theory crafting session. Keep that crap where it belongs.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23261776 Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:23:05 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23261756
Does the guide still have as much relevance come 3.3?
--
Come play Mafia! | My Picture Blog]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23261756 Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:19:50 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23261715 said by Reanimator:

If they drop our dodge another 20% they sure better fix our bear block. Or we are going to get eaten by any ae pack.
Hmm maybe they would like ICC requiring CC again. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23261715 Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:12:10 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23261711 »Chill of the Throne - 20% of dodge ignored in ICC

This line of discussion isn't relivant to this thread.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23261711 Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:11:41 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23261703 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23261703 Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:10:28 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23261633 --
I'd take the time to insult your intelligence, but you probably wouldn't get it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23261633 Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:00:42 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23261600 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23261600 Thu, 29 Oct 2009 15:54:32 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23261584 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23261584 Thu, 29 Oct 2009 15:52:25 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23261578 So as Antonica stated, the proper geming for you depends on what you need. When I started to dabble in bear tanking I had big issues with threat. At that point I gem'd more towards agi and even hit to fix that problem. But as your gear increases you have more flexability to do what you want to.
I have been taken in by the stam > avoidance camp. Before the dodge roll-back, my so-so gear was achieving about 55% dodge. In a raid environment that sounds pretty nice. Dodgeing half of the incoming attacks. But imagine being on the healer side of that. Trying to heal a bear with 40k hp that occasionally takes 12k hits. Where two hits will take him close to death and three will definetly finish him off. This healer will be spam healing you regardless of your current health right? So IF you do take a shot you got a heal before the next one lands IF it lands. But take that same look at a stam stacking bear. Your healer isn't counting on you avoiding much dmg, so your need for healing is more constant and less spikey. As above that healer is going to be spaming heals on you regardless of your current health but he has a much larger cushion between full health and time of death. I like this situation because it also allows me the tank, time to activate cooldowns to help prevent that death.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23261578 Thu, 29 Oct 2009 15:51:37 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23260508 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23260508 Thu, 29 Oct 2009 12:58:16 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23260468 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23260468 Thu, 29 Oct 2009 12:52:28 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23260221 However, I wouldn't mind hearing (reading) different points of view. Keep in mind that right now I would say that I suck as a tank and any information on how to get better is helpful.
Thanks Xcal for posting this guide and Antonica I am looking forward to reading your strategy.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23260221 Thu, 29 Oct 2009 12:15:44 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23259928
It's not 'my math' or 'my opinion' on stuff. I'm sorry if OTHER PEOPLE's articles pissed in your Wheaties but the way you personally tank isn't the most widely accepted nor do you use macro's and thus there is no common ground for your views in this thread/guide as it stands. No one said or implied there is only 1 or 2 or 3 ways to do anything this is merely covering the MAJORITY you know like an election the MAJORITY person wins. Sure 49% of the people might not agree with the call but 51% do so that's the MAJORITY. If you can support your tanking style with 'facts' not 'feelings' and wish to try to change the MAJORITY view on something feel free to contribute else you need to write you own guide to push that agenda. If you have issues with the articles in the guide contact the owns and take it up with them. All work has references and credit is given 100% to the original owns of that work. I don't want nor take any credit for their work.

I stand here awaiting your new post with a guide to bear tanking as you see it. It'd be great to see your view point on the subject in contrast.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23259928 Thu, 29 Oct 2009 11:34:15 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23259874 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23259874 Thu, 29 Oct 2009 11:27:40 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23259703 My intent is to create a black and white mathmatically backed guide to bear tanking that covers the most widely accepted and efficient ways to bear tank. If you choose to tank any other way please avoid this post or bring in some solid math to backup your claims to how you do stuff.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23259703 Thu, 29 Oct 2009 11:04:03 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23259499 said by uvray:

does the order of the casting matter? does the !Maul need to be sequenced after or before the mangle?
I don't think it matters but I generally do it before just incase an auto attack happens before Mangle so Maul gets use.

#showtooltip Mangle
/startattack
/cast !Maul
/cast Mangle (bear)(rank 5)

I think just using "/cast Maul" will possible un-queue a Maul sometimes.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23259499 Thu, 29 Oct 2009 10:25:17 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23259492 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23259492 Thu, 29 Oct 2009 10:23:55 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23259479 said by uvray:

a question about the macros - what does the ! in front of Maul do? My macros that I use look as follows:

#showtooltip Mangle
/startattack
/cast Maul
/cast Mangle (bear)(rank 5)

Any fundamental difference I should be aware of?
Use:
/cast !Maul

The ! means it will queue up a Maul if one isn't already queued and if it's already queued up it does nothing.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23259479 Thu, 29 Oct 2009 10:22:08 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23254281 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23254281 Wed, 28 Oct 2009 11:50:44 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23254263
#showtooltip Mangle
/startattack
/cast Maul
/cast Mangle (bear)(rank 5)

Any fundamental difference I should be aware of?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23254263 Wed, 28 Oct 2009 11:49:20 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23254187
And even though this guide does have some helpful tips, it really is just one person's perspective. I disagree with a chunk of it and I have more threat than pretty much any tank I've gone up against and I have 57 (almost 58k) buffed with nothing blown and 43% dodge and 33-34k armor. Go with what makes you comfortable and you feel fits your tanking style best.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23254187 Wed, 28 Oct 2009 11:39:34 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23254154
I've finally gone back to bear tanking after being boomkin/resto for all of WotLK (boomkin/bear now....I have issues with getting sometimes identical gear, gemming them different and calling it a new set; i.e.: kitty). I have a big question about gemming.

About 2 weeks ago when I made the switch from resto to feral I was only a ~3400 Gearscore with less than 30k hp in bear. I've improved that and am now 4400GS and 40k hp w/ MotW in bear form, though only have 35% dodge. Rawr says I am better off gemming Agi now instead of Stam.

That said, I am curious what the general concensus is on gemming and ideal stats. At what point is it generally more HP than you will ever need barring a stupid group? I know what Rawr says for now, and will regularly check, but what are typical HP and Dodge goals, and for what content level. (pugged my first toc10 the other night. Been out for a few months.)

My initial thoughts are that now that I have 40k self-buffed to go for 45% dodge while doing my best to maintain the HP (still wearing crappy polar chest that is going to t8.5 when i get the emblems, but will be a HP loss). At that point it will pretty much be whatever I get that is an upgrade. Is this about right, or should I be going for more hp first or more dodge?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23254154 Wed, 28 Oct 2009 11:32:55 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23248089 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23248089 Tue, 27 Oct 2009 11:11:17 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23242047 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23242047 Mon, 26 Oct 2009 09:38:09 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23241848
------------------
I'm going to try to work up some new info/numbers this week. I've been a bit busying house shopping in RL. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23241848 Mon, 26 Oct 2009 08:34:54 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23217353 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23217353 Wed, 21 Oct 2009 09:53:09 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23209479
»www.wowarmory.com/character-shee···n=Sprakk

I know I can pick up a new weapon and cloak. And hopefully should be picking up t9 headpiece for set bonus this week. But any suggestions would be appreciated.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23209479 Mon, 19 Oct 2009 20:16:30 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23195791 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23195791 Fri, 16 Oct 2009 16:45:17 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23195672 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23195672 Fri, 16 Oct 2009 16:24:38 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23195115 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23195115 Fri, 16 Oct 2009 14:50:44 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23175688
"Zyncotl

AP Reduction of Demoralizing Roar:
Untalented
Level 77 Rank 8 Demoralizing Roar: -408 AP
Talented
Level 77 Rank 8 Demoralizing Roar: -571.2 AP"

If this is true and we know 14 AP = 1 DPS then your looking at reducing the targets DPS by about 12 DPS with 5 talents. Not sure what that translates into for DR tho.
---------------------

EDIT: I'm still seeing conflicting information on how AP corresponds to DR. I'll have to see if I can find the math behind AP to damage/DR to get an exact number.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23175688 Tue, 13 Oct 2009 10:22:55 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23159742 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23159742 Fri, 09 Oct 2009 18:19:45 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23150699
Engage your Auto Attacks
/startattack

Use Mangle
/cast Mangle (bear)(rank 5)

Use Swipe
/cast Swipe (bear)(Rank 8)

Use Lacerate
/cast Lacerate

Use Feral Faerie Fire
/cast Faerie Fire (feral)

Put a 'Skull' icon on your current target
/script SetRaidTarget("target",8)

Queue Maul if it's not already queued
/cast !Maul

Cancel Enrage
/cancelaura Enrage

Use Enrage
/cast Enrage

Place this above any 'cast' command to show that commands tooltip
#showtooltip

Equips the Idol of the Corruptor if you don't have it equipped
/run if not IsEquippedItem("Idol of the Corruptor") then EquipItemByName("Idol of the Corruptor")end

--------------------------------------------------------
Example Macro's:

Pull
/startattack
/cast Faerie Fire (feral)
/script SetRaidTarget("target",8) - Optional

Mangle
/startattack
/run if not IsEquippedItem("Idol of the Corruptor") then EquipItemByName("Idol of the Corruptor")end
/cast Mangle (bear)(rank 5)
/cast !Maul

Lacerate
/startattack
/cast Lacerate
/cast !Maul

Swipe
/startattack
/cast Swipe (bear)(Rank 8)
/cast !Maul

Enrage or get 20 instant rage - Single click for Enrage & double click for 20 instant rage
/cancelaura Enrage
/cast Enrage

Remove BoP - Great for Gormak's impale!
/cancelaura Blessing of Protection ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23150699 Thu, 08 Oct 2009 09:54:29 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23150357
For a pure bear tank OoC doesn't appear to be a very useful talent most of the time. I can't seem to find something else to blow 1 point on that's roughly the same or better on the other hand.

FYI: 2T9 is better for a kitty then 2T8. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23150357 Thu, 08 Oct 2009 08:31:37 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23147206 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23147206 Wed, 07 Oct 2009 16:41:01 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23144401 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23144401 Wed, 07 Oct 2009 08:29:43 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23140438 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23140438 Tue, 06 Oct 2009 13:50:21 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23140303 said by Reanimator:

Is OOC really still a mandatory talent?
Thinking about it that's a great question. Eventually I'm going to try to give math behind every talent to show people exactly how good/bad it is then people can decide for themselves if it's worth it. EJ and other sites are still marking OOC as a mandatory talent but I see it more as a nice to have but not required thing since bosses give so much rage. I guess I'll figure that out down the road but my inital guess is that OOC is better OT's then MT's. The other question is going to be if you skip OOC what do you do with that 1 point to give you the same or better talent wise? I'll move this talent up my list to work on sinec you brought up a great question.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23140303 Tue, 06 Oct 2009 13:23:55 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23140258 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23140258 Tue, 06 Oct 2009 13:16:35 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23139984 said by Zyncotl:

A lot of bears forego the natural and master shapshifter. Since you aren't shifting forms often you are essentially tying up 5 points for 2% more damage. Feral Aggression is often considered a better use of the 5 points for the improved Demoralizing Roar. Neither way is going to make or break you and your own personal raid composition (if consistent) would change your bear build for optimization.

4% overall damage not 2%. To quantify that the extra 4% damage equates to ~90 DPS and ~170 TPS buffed with MoTW only. Those numbers scale when 5, 10, or 25 man buffed.

5 points in shapeshift 25 man buffed the numbers are ~110 DPS and ~240 TPS. Compare that with the threat article above.

"Here's how adding 100 of any given rating (except AP, since that's 2 AP points for every one rating point) increases that base TPS:
100 expertise (below cap): 296.26
100 hit: +164.32 TPS
100 expertise (after cap): 147.3
100 haste: 68.12
100 armor pen: 60.8
200 AP: 57.5
100 crit: 52.12"

As a comparison 5/5 Naturalist 25 man buffed will provide you ~275 DPS and ~560 TPS.

Most bears are between about 4,500-6,500 TPS all things considered so your looking at ~4-5% increase in threat from 5 points in shapeshifter.

*I'll cover what demo roar really does later this week hopefully by the numbers.*]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23139984 Tue, 06 Oct 2009 12:27:39 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23139796
AP Reduction of Demoralizing Roar:
Untalented
Level 77 Rank 8 Demoralizing Roar: -408 AP
Talented
Level 77 Rank 8 Demoralizing Roar: -571.2 AP

--
I'd take the time to insult your intelligence, but you probably wouldn't get it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23139796 Tue, 06 Oct 2009 11:54:09 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23139693
PvE Talents:
Survival of the Fittest - Critical
Each point of the Survival of the Fittest talent (max 3) reduces your chance to be crit by 2%, making it so that Druids are 100% crit immune immediately if they have 3/3 in this talent.

Protector of the Pack - Critical
Each point of this talent (max 3) reduces all damage, including Magic, by 3% per talent point spent. This means that you will take 12% less damage from all forms of attack. This is our primary magic damage reduction ability.

Infected Wounds – Critical*
This talent causes your attacks to apply a wound that reduces the attack speed of your target by 20% including most bosses. When applied, this will greatly reduce the incoming damage taken and is considered a very important tanking talent. It also applies a 50% movement reduction but this is more useful for pvp then pve.

* = If you have someone else who applies this ability on a consistent basis then drop this for 3/3 Imp. Mangle

Thick Hide - Critical
This ability increases your armor by 10%. This is a very good increase and definitely worth the 3 talent points.

Feral Swiftness – Critical & Natural Reaction - Critical
Together these talents increase your total Dodge by 10% - a very big and very important increase. As well, you gain 3 rage from Natural Reaction every time you dodge an attack - a very nice boost to threat especially when low on rage.

Survival Instincts – Critical
This talent gives Druid tanks an emergency button for when their health begins to get low. For one point, this talent is very much worth it.

Mangle - Critical & Improved Mangle – Medium*
Mangle is a great threat attack and you can’t afford to pass it up. You need to use Berserk to start some fights for threat and without Mangle you can’t do that so Mangle is a critical talent to pick up. Improved Mangle reduces the cooldown from 6 seconds to 4.5 seconds allowing you to use Mangle more often in your rotation. So while Mangle is critical, Imp. Mangle isn’t that good but it does add a marginal amount of threat if you can spare the 3 points. I wouldn’t get Imp. Mangle without having the Idol of the Corruptor as well.

Note on Improved Mangle - If you are going to put any points into this talent, you must go 3/3 because if you only get 1/3 or 2/3 no benefit is gained whatsoever for Druid tanking. I’d skip this over Infected Wounds.

* = If you have someone who applies a similar ability to Infected Wounds on a consistent basis then get this instead of Infected Wounds else keep Infected Wounds.

Berserk - Critical
This ability allows the tank to produce huge threat very quickly by removing the cooldown of Mangle so that it can be spammed for 15 seconds. It is best to wait until you have a near full Rage bar before you use this ability so you don't waste it due to being rage starved. Also, be careful not to break CC as it causes you to attack up to 3 targets at once instead of 1.

Savage Fury - Critical
This is a very important talent for increasing threat. Considered must have for the damage increase it provides for just 2 talent points.

Primal Precision – Critical*
This is a very important talent for increasing threat. It is considered a must have for improved chance to hit with attacks & avoid dodge/parried attacks, which greatly increases your threat & reduces damage in the case of a parried attack.

* = You can drop this if you have 213 Expertise and no threat issues. I’d advise people to get this no matter what unless your at the parry cap which is very unlikely. Dollar for dollar this is one of the best threat talents you can get.

Feral Instinct - Critical
This talent gives a bear’s only AOE Tanking ability, Swipe, a 30% damage increase making it extremely important to have.

Omen of Clarity - Critical
This talent is a very significant DPS boost in that it very often gives you free attacks.

Note: OOC only procs off of White damage making it scale very effectively with Haste.

Rend and Tear - Critical & Primal Gore - Critical
These talents boost the damage Maul does on bleeding and Maul is your primary threat ability so anything you can do to boost that is great.

In progress:
Ferocity – Critical
Sharpened Claws – Critical
Predatory Strikes – Critical
Primal Fury – Critical
Feral Charge - High
Heart of the Wild – Critical
Leader of the Pack – Critical
Improved Leader of the Pack – Critical
Improved Mark of the Wild – Critical
Furor – Critical
Naturalist – Critical
Natural Shapeshifter – High
Master Shapeshifter – High
Shredding Attacks – Low
Feral Aggression – Low
Brutal Impact – Low
Nurturing Instinct – Worthless
Primal Tenacity – Worthless
Predatory Instinct – Worthless
King of the Jungle - Low]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23139693 Tue, 06 Oct 2009 11:32:14 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23139349
Feral Combat (55 points)
5/5 Ferocity
3/3 Feral Instinct
2/2 Savage Fury
3/3 Thick Hide
2/2 Feral Swiftness
1/1 Survival Instincts
3/3 Sharpened Claws
3/3 Predatory Strikes
2/2 Primal Fury
2/2 Primal Precision
1/1 Feral Charge
3/3 Natural Reaction
5/5 Heart of the Wild
3/3 Survival of the Fittest
1/1 Leader of the Pack
2/2 Improved Leader of the Pack
3/3 Protector of the Pack
3/3 Infected Wounds or 3/3 Improved Mangle (Put 3 in Imp. Mangle or nothing)
1/1 Mangle
5/5 Rend and Tear
1/1 Primal Gore
1/1 Berserk

Restoration (16 points)
2/2 Improved Mark of the Wild
3/5 Furor
5/5 Naturalist
1/1 Omen of Clarity
3/3 Natural Shapeshifter
2/2 Master Shapeshifter]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23139349 Tue, 06 Oct 2009 10:19:20 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23138716 -----------------------------------------
[Druid]It's time to play that game again - NERF THAT DRUID
Okay, not really. But this is getting kinda silly.

I've talked in the past about how druid stamina scales somewhat stupidly, and how they can wear gear that is just wrong (like pvp gear) and not really care. I've shown what that means and how it means before. And I've even talked about how to nerf bears the right way, once and for all.

That's not what this is about though. This is about stupid things. Like how much health you could conceivably get now.

And according to Rawr - it's 72.0k assuming LW/JC and a Tauren, and all raid buffs.

I realize this set is a bit ridiculous - it relies on a fair amount of pvp gear - but it's also kinda silly that it's even possible. Here's the full list of gear. Everything save one piece is gemmed for stamina (the second ring has a red gem for the meta). Everything has a max stam enchant. Otherwise it's just like you'd expect:

Head Relentless Gladiator's Dragonhide Helm
Neck Legionnaire's Gorget
Shoulders Shoulderpads of the Intruder
Chest Polar Vest
Waist Polar Cord
Legs Legwraps of the Broken Beast
Feet Polar Boots
Wrist Armbands of Dark Determination
Hands Relentless Gladiator's Dragonhide Gloves
Finger1 Band of the Twin Val'kyr
Finger2 Band of the Traitor King
Trinket1 Juggernaut's Vitality
Trinket2 Juggernaut's Vitality
Back Cairne's Endurance
MainHand Relentless Gladiator's Greatstaff
Ranged Idol of the Corruptor

Health: 72056.19
Agility: 1462
Armor: 34329
Stamina: 5952
Dodge Rating: 156
Defense Rating: 196
Resilience: 303
Dodge: 43.474%
Miss: 8.859%
Strength: 750
Attack Power: 8137
Crit Rating: 290
Hit Rating: 190
Expertise Rating: 47
Haste Rating: 102
Armor Penetration Rating: 0
Avoided Attacks: 14.589%

That's the worst part - this includes about a 50% avoidance rate. Yeesh.

Okay, you say - what if we take out the polar gear and the pvp gear, and we don't use things like Band of the Traitor King? That sounds almost like it'd be okay...except that the best in slot gear is perilously close to polar gear anyway. Still, let's take a look at what that would be like.

(here's a fun game - guess what the health will be!)

Head Runetotem's Headguard of Triumph
Neck Legionnaire's Gorget
Shoulders Shoulderpads of the Intruder
Chest Vest of Calamitous Fate
Waist Belt of the Pitiless Killer
Legs Legwraps of the Broken Beast
Feet Icewalker Treads
Wrist Armbands of Dark Determination
Hands Runetotem's Handgrips of Triumph
Finger1 Band of the Twin Val'kyr
Finger2 Signified Ring of Binding
Trinket1 Juggernaut's Vitality
Trinket2 Juggernaut's Vitality
Back Cairne's Endurance
MainHand Anguish
Ranged Idol of the Corruptor

Health: 69256.19
Agility: 1866
Armor: 37249
Stamina: 5672
Dodge Rating: 119
Defense Rating: 206
Resilience: 15
Dodge: 47.940%
Miss: 8.926%
Strength: 649
Attack Power: 8165
Crit Rating: 321
Hit Rating: 402
Expertise Rating: 133
Haste Rating: 343
Armor Penetration Rating: 165
Avoided Attacks: 7.194%

Wow, a 3k loss in health. Ouch. For that we gain almost 2k TPS, 8% fewer avoided attacks against us, and another 4% dodge.

Oh yeah - we're still over 69,000 health! And the funny thing about this gear set is that it's very, very approachable by many out there. The T9.258 gear is a bit harder to reach - but there are only 2 pieces of them, and things like the non-tier pieces will likely be achieved by many bears before Icecrown hits. The hardest thing to get here is the cloak, but that's only a gain of about 20 stam. The weapon is actually from the hard mode 10 man. The rings are from 10-man and Ony-25.

Heck, realistically? I could likely obtain this in the not-so near future, or close enough to it that it wouldn't matter.

Here's the thing, though - this doesn't matter by itself. 69k is a huge number - it's nearly 3 times as much health as a sunwell-geared bear had back in the day. But as long as this doesn't confer a significant advantage, I doubt you'll see it nerfed. Also, as long as it's not significantly higher than the next tank, you probably won't see it nerfed.

Still, it's pretty nuts, isn't it?

The worst part? The best I could get a similarly-geared tauren warrior to was 58.9k. That's...not a good sign. The druid would at that point have 17% more health than a warrior without pvp gear; with pvp gear, it pops up to 22% more. That's close to where blizzard starts thinking about nerfing.

Ref:
»wowthinktank.blogspot.com/2009/1···ain.html]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23138716 Tue, 06 Oct 2009 08:10:27 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23135391 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-3x-Feral-Druid-Bear-Tanking-Guide-23135391 Mon, 05 Oct 2009 15:25:40 EDT