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2 edits | reply to amigo_boy
Re: Scary.. said by amigo_boy:Maybe you misinterpreted his opposition. He voted against so-called immunity until it was amended. Mark If missing the February vote on the FISA bill
is how O'Bama defined his opposition to it,
it would explain his post-election actions
with regard to promises of earmark reform and open records.
NV
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In my perfect religion, a giant hole appears and sucks up all the lousy people.
I call it the Crapture. |
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| said by Noah Vail:If missing the February vote on the FISA bill I was referring to how he voted FOR the 2006 Patriot Act, 03/02/2006. A few months after voting against it.
The same thing for so-called telco immunity. He voted a few times to strike so-called immunity. Then voted for the entire FISA bill containing immunity.
That's just the way politics work. Compromise instead of perfection. It's the same reason Republicans brought the "Community Reinvestment Act" to a vote in '95 and '99 with President Clinton's strengthening of affordable housing (leading to requirements that mortgage lenders make bad loans). They got some things such as repeal of Glass-Steagle. Today Rs blame Ds for the financial meltdown, but overlook how Rs brought that bill to the floor when they controlled Congress. It was just compromise.
Mark |
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| said by amigo_boy:I was referring to how he voted FOR the 2006 Patriot Act, 03/02/2006. A few months after voting against it. I wasn't aware O'Bama was such a study the Kerry Political Method.
said by amigo_boy:The same thing for so-called telco immunity. He voted a few times to strike so-called immunity. Then voted for the entire FISA bill containing immunity....It was just compromise. Mark So, can you name me a situation where O'Bama didn't base the welfare of his constituents on the political desires of his colleagues?
I wanted to see if I could determine if O'Bama's value on liberty outweighed his value of being a Senator. These are the major civil liberty votes, that occurred when the possibility of becoming POTS seemed strongest.
07/09/2008 Y HR 6304 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 Amendments Act of 2008
07/09/2008 Y S Amdt 5064 Striking Telecom Immunity from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Bill
02/13/2008 NV HR 2082 Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2008
02/12/2008 NV S 2248 FISA Amendments Act of 2007
12/18/2007 NV HR 2764 Inclusion of Consolidated Appropriations
10/16/2007 NV HR 3093 Commerce, Justice, Science, and Related Agencies Appropriations Act of 2008
09/20/2007 NV S Amdt 2934 Expressing Support for General Petraeus and All Members of the Armed Forces
09/20/2007 Y S Amdt 2947 Expressing Support for All Men and Women in the U.S. Armed Forces
09/19/2007 Y S Amdt 2022 Habeas Corpus for Detainees of the United States
09/18/2007 Y S 1257 District of Columbia House Voting Rights Act of 2007
08/03/2007 N S 1927 Foreign Intelligence Acquisition
07/26/2007 NV HR 1 Implementing the 9/11 Commission Recommendations Act
07/26/2007 NV S Amdt 2405 REAL ID Funding
07/19/2007 NV S Amdt 2351 Sense of the Senate on Guantanamo Bay Detainees
I'm still evaluating the results
NV
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In my perfect religion, a giant hole appears and sucks up all the lousy people.
I call it the Crapture. |
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| reply to Noah Vail
said by Noah Vail:said by amigo_boy:Maybe you misinterpreted his opposition. He voted against so-called immunity until it was amended. Mark If missing the February vote on the FISA bill is how O'Bama defined his opposition to it, it would explain his post-election actions with regard to promises of earmark reform and open records. BTW: Check out Senator (and former Presidential nominee) McCain's voting record. He has far more "NV" (not voting) than Obama for the same period. (188 votes versus 164).
Mark |
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1 edit | reply to Noah Vail
said by Noah Vail: These are the major civil liberty votes, that occurred when the possibility of becoming POTS seemed strongest. Which goes against the belief that he changed after becoming President.
He may have ran to the Left during the primary. That's common for all primaries (and, similarly, for Rs to run to the Right during the primary).
BTW: Our liberties depend upon regulation. A perfect libertarian world would degrade into anti-liberty conditions.
What many people overlook when considering increases in government power is how our own individual power has increased as well. Imagine how the poor schmuck in 1900 would *die* to have the medical, communication, transportation and financial advances we have today. Sit down toilets? Holy cow!
All those things empower us as individuals. And, they lead to social challenges, requiring greater regulation, oversight, etc. The regulation can't be taken out of context of the improvements that led to challenges requiring regulation. (Well, not unless you're a libertarian... wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more.).
Mark |
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| reply to amigo_boy
said by amigo_boy:BTW: Check out Senator (and former Presidential nominee) McCain's voting record. He has far more "NV" (not voting) than Obama for the same period. (188 votes versus 164).Mark No defense from me. They're paid to make choices. I don't find compulsive avoidance to be a strength.
NV
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In my perfect religion, a giant hole appears and sucks up all the lousy people.
I call it the Crapture. |
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| said by Noah Vail:No defense from me. They're paid to make choices. I don't find compulsive avoidance to be a strength. As an aside, I remember back in the mid '90s. McCain voted against the amendment (to the Omnibus Crime Bill) to ban so-called "assault weapons." And then he voted FOR the Omnibus Crime Bill (with the ban).
I could accept that it's the nature of politics that nothing will be perfect, and the overall Crime Bill outweighed individual objectionable parts.
But, McCain took it to a higher level. A pro-gun friend of mine wrote McCain complaining about his final vote on the CB. McCain responded "I'm pro-gun and I voted against the ban when it was proposed as an amendment."
My friend's anti-gun mother wrote McCain complaining about his vote against the AW ban. McCain responded, "I favor sensible gun controls, and if you look at my voting record I voted for the Crime Bill with the ban."
It's just the nature of politics. Appeal to the broadest group of people, and support bills for the greatest good for the greatest number.
It's easy to be a libertarian rabble-rouser about how this or that politician didn't "stand on principle." If all politicians did that we wouldn't have the Constitutional government we do today. The founding generation wouldn't have ditched the Articles of Confederation after 12 years. Who knows how we would have come out of WW I or II. Or, how it would work with California blockading Arizona.
That's the deception of libertarianism. It's easy to criticize everything without having to live under the alternative.
Mark |
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1 edit | reply to amigo_boy
said by amigo_boy:said by Noah Vail: These are the major civil liberty votes, that occurred when the possibility of becoming POTS seemed strongest. Which goes against the belief that he changed after becoming President. He may have ran to the Left during the primary. That's common for all primaries (and, similarly, for Rs to run to the Right during the primary). BTW: Our liberties depend upon regulation. A perfect libertarian world would degrade into anti-liberty conditions. What many people overlook when considering increases in government power is how our own individual power has increased as well. Imagine how the poor schmuck in 1900 would *die* to have the medical, communication, transportation and financial advances we have today. Sit down toilets? Holy cow! All those things empower us as individuals. And, they lead to social challenges, requiring greater regulation, oversight, etc. The regulation can't be taken out of context of the improvements that led to challenges requiring regulation. (Well, not unless you're a libertarian... wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more.). Mark I missed your answer. O'Bama's civil rights vote indicate what kind of character?
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In my perfect religion, a giant hole appears and sucks up all the lousy people.
I call it the Crapture. |
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| said by Noah Vail:I missed your answer. O'Bama's civil rights vote indicate what kind of character? Mainstream? Compared to libertarianism which consistently gets 2% of the vote?
As I said, those votes were before his election to President. Those who say he changed after election are wrong. He may have changed after the Primary. But, that's normal. All Presidential candidates run to their party's roots during the Primary, then to the middle in the General.
Mark |
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