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 Z801 point 77Premium
join:2009-08-31
Amerika | Hmmm So rather than people being laid off or kept based on their merits and productivity, the union has it based on seniority. Nice. Hard work gets you no where in the IBEW. | |
|  neftv
join:2000-10-01
Broomall, PA | Re: Hmmm right on! What he said. | |
| | Reviews:
 ·Comcast
| Hard work gets you no where any where.
You always have favoritism and ass kissers who even if you work hard will find a way to get you canned when it comes down to it. Because they won't work hard your a threat to them and they will get you fired or laid off so they look good still in others eyes.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" | |
| | neftv
join:2000-10-01
Broomall, PA | Re: Hmmm I seen that happen time and time again first hand. | |
| | | Reviews:
·Comcast
| Re: Hmmm I've been a victim of it 3 times now and , I really don't get offended over it , people can be nasty beasts.
"The world ain't all sunshine and rainbows. It's a very mean and nasty place... and I don´t care how tough you are, it will beat you to your knees and keep you there permanently, if you let it.You, me or nobody, is gonna hit as hard as life. But ain't about how hard you hit... It's about how hard you can get hit, and keep moving forward... how much you can take, and keep moving forward. That´s how winning is done!"
Forget the movie but it's the truth.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" | |
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| | | said by BosstonesOwn:Hard work gets you no where any where. You always have favoritism and ass kissers who even if you work hard will find a way to get you canned when it comes down to it. Because they won't work hard your a threat to them and they will get you fired or laid off so they look good still in others eyes. This, imho, is the most important aspect of a Union contract (tied with compensation). It can prevent this exact scenario from being played out. I know I got fired as a result of an ass-kisser know-it-all who actually knew nothing (now that company has a VERY difficult time keeping somebody in that position for the same reason, and management is starting to figure this guy out), so this happens to be personal for me.
I am now in a Union job, which is the second longest job I have had (the first being 20 years in the US Navy (dealing with plenty of ass-kissers there)). I feel valued by my company, or at least my boss.
I also believe that having contracted compensation as opposed to 'everyone for themselves' individually negotiated compensation makes for a happier workplace, knowing that even the ass-kissing spreader of hate and discontent can't make any more than people doing real work. I have also observed that most people who disagree with this tend to be ass-kissing spreaders of hate and discontent. (/flame on)
My Union contract is not as seniority intensive as IBEW (seniority is in the local work group, not company wide). Some think that's good, others disagree. | |
| | | Reviews:
·Comcast
| Re: Hmmm said by viperlmw:said by BosstonesOwn:Hard work gets you no where any where. You always have favoritism and ass kissers who even if you work hard will find a way to get you canned when it comes down to it. Because they won't work hard your a threat to them and they will get you fired or laid off so they look good still in others eyes. This, imho, is the most important aspect of a Union contract (tied with compensation). It can prevent this exact scenario from being played out. I know I got fired as a result of an ass-kisser know-it-all who actually knew nothing (now that company has a VERY difficult time keeping somebody in that position for the same reason, and management is starting to figure this guy out), so this happens to be personal for me. I am now in a Union job, which is the second longest job I have had (the first being 20 years in the US Navy (dealing with plenty of ass-kissers there)). I feel valued by my company, or at least my boss. I also believe that having contracted compensation as opposed to 'everyone for themselves' individually negotiated compensation makes for a happier workplace, knowing that even the ass-kissing spreader of hate and discontent can't make any more than people doing real work. I have also observed that most people who disagree with this tend to be ass-kissing spreaders of hate and discontent. (/flame on) My Union contract is not as seniority intensive as IBEW (seniority is in the local work group, not company wide). Some think that's good, others disagree. I have been laid off due to an ass kisser multiple times , and this last job was the same issue , they can't find some one to do all that I did , they had to hire 3 people. I laugh about it and it happened only a month ago. It's life I don't take it personally.
I would love contracted compensation at a business, but the issue here is I am always a contractor , never a worker for the company , people don't like to hire folks like me so we get black holed into contractor roles. And when we are getting ready to be taken on the ass kissers of the world and the scum they are get us canned. Not exactly fair but hey what ever.
I don't think the union is the biggest problem at this point , I feel that the biggest issue is with government keeping the economy up on the shoulders of the tax payers and there is just no responsibility anywhere.
These little ass kissing cut throat dicks are the very embodiment of greed , they are more then happy to cut your throat to make it so they don't have to work hard.
Yeah im all over the place today 
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" | |
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|  nixenRockin' the BoxenPremium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA | said by BosstonesOwn:Hard work gets you no where any where. You always have favoritism and ass kissers who even if you work hard will find a way to get you canned when it comes down to it. Because they won't work hard your a threat to them and they will get you fired or laid off so they look good still in others eyes. I've only worked in one company that RIFFed. They'd been through several rounds before I left. They let go of the least experienced and lowest-performing. Salary and pure seniority didn't really factor in. Basically, they let go of the dead wood/lowest value, first, and kept the most productive people with the greatest level of knowledge of the business. Each time they RIFFed, they worked their way up the experience/productivity ladder (since they'd cut the lower rungs, already).
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The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell | |
| | | Reviews:
·Comcast
| Re: Hmmm Ive been through 4 fortune 500's where I lasted 3 levels of cuts at each. Except one I lasted till they decided to outsource to a company and then EDS offered me a slot , which I declined because it was a 25% pay cut.
Once your past the second riff its all down hill.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" | |
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|  KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
 ·AT&T DSL Service
| said by BosstonesOwn:Hard work gets you no where any where. You always have favoritism and ass kissers who even if you work hard will find a way to get you canned when it comes down to it. Because they won't work hard your a threat to them and they will get you fired or laid off so they look good still in others eyes. I agree with your comments, but they apply just as heavily if not more so to non-Union jobs where there's even less protection for workers. It's all about who you know, who you're friends with/family with, who married or is screwing who, and so on. If anything Union adds some extra protection. Working in a "Right to Work" state where you have "At Will" employment means you can get stepped on for any and everything, and daring to fight injustice or fight for your job is a fasttrack to termination. Not unemployment, because they'll block you from drawing any!
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"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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 en102Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA | Hard work doesn't count for anything in the union. You could work 3x harder than the person next to you, then be laid off while they keep their job.
Union/management relationships are often poor, typically giving poor working conditions (i.e. bad hours, shortened work weeks) as a trade off for pay or benefits.
I worked on both union and management for multiple companies.
1. Union gives a false security of 'seniority'. There is 'some', but don't count on it, unless you work for govt, which won't shutdown/outsource.
2. Seniority vs. performance is a poor model.
3. Union or not, if the company can find a cheaper way to do business, your number may be up. Whether its overseas, cost cutting, new technology (replacing/eliminating position for cheaper process) or automation. | |
|  SabreDi relung hatiku bernyanyi bidadari
join:2005-05-17 | Not saying it's not a union problem, mind you, but everywhere I've ever worked, layoffs and promotions were always done on the basis of seniority, and not at all based on whether they were doing a good job or even whether they deserved it. And none of those places were unionised.
I lost out on a promotion at an old job three times. In all cases I was told that I was incredibly well qualified for the job - they just didn't give it to me because somebody with more seniority, who wasn't as well regarded, was given it instead. Seniority obsession is a major problem, and it's not solely restricted to places where unions rule.
There's a lot of issues with a lot of unions out there, but the answer is a lot more complicated than just "let's kill all the unions".
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With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world.
Save American Soccer - Stop the MLS! | |
| KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK Reviews:
·AT&T DSL Service
| So let me see. Everyone who got laid off, (Union) wasn't anything to do with them or their performance, they were awesome, but were unfairly cheated by seniority, while meanwhile, everyone who gets to keep their jobs are lazy buttkissers who stay because of seniority, is that about it?
Sounds like a lot of sour grapes and self-interest in that type of attitude.
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"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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| | Z801 point 77Premium
join:2009-08-31
Amerika | Re: Hmmm Obviously not "everyone" but by the admission of the union spokesman, seniority was the driving force behind who was picked to receive the axe.
I know you love unions and defend them at every opportunity, but picking people based on time of employment instead of job performance is indefensible.
Unions are there to negotiate fair wages and benefits great, but they should not stand in the way of increasing productivity. In the end, more people get laid off as a result because so much dead weight is kept. | |
| | | KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK Reviews:
·AT&T DSL Service
| Re: Hmmm I just don't buy the argument that seniority always protects lazy employees while better performing employees get laid off.
Performance and experience are always important. Everybody who has a job knows people who work hard and put in their time. They deserve their seniority, every bit of it. Likewise, we all know people who get by doing the bare minimum and are lazy. They also can get protected somewhat by seniority... but performance is ALWAYS important.
I'm POSITIVE their are cases out there where harder working, better employees did get laid off while a lazier, more senior employee was kept on--- but I'm of the opinion this is the exception, not the rule.
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"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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| | | | Z801 point 77Premium
join:2009-08-31
Amerika | Re: Hmmm It did in this case, again, according to the union spokesperson.
I think the 'union rule' is what happened here: last hired, first fired. And it isn't just union shops that do this. No matter where it happens, IMO, it's wrong.
Everyone, union member or not, should be judged individually on their job performance and their value to the company. The suits may not be able to pull their heads out of their asses long enough to recognize this doesn't mean the union leadership shouldn't. The better the membership is, the better off the union as a collective is. | |
| | | | | KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK Reviews:
·AT&T DSL Service
| Re: Hmmm So, IMHO, if they were still working, then their performance must be acceptable, or else it's management that's not doing their job.
Why assume the people who had jobs didn't deserve them?
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"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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| | | | | | Z801 point 77Premium
join:2009-08-31
Amerika | Re: Hmmm Because they laid off based on seniority. The union spokesman said those people had work but not seniority.
Seniority should not be a criterion, ever. If you think the length of time someone floats around the union bowl should matter, more power to ya. I don't. | |
| | | | | | | | | Re: Hmmm said by Z80:Because they laid off based on seniority. The union spokesman said those people had work but not seniority. Seniority should not be a criterion, ever. If you think the length of time someone floats around the union bowl should matter, more power to ya. I don't. Did it ever occur to you they were all of similar quality?
And why shouldn*t seniority play at least some kind of role? | |
| | | | | | | KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK Reviews:
·AT&T DSL Service
| All he's saying is Verizon is laying off people who had plenty of work.
He's not saying "We laid off our busy guys and kept a bunch of do nothings around because of seniority." The way I read it, he's taking a swipe at Verizon for laying people off for no good reason.
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"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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| | | | | | | | Z801 point 77Premium
join:2009-08-31
Amerika
1 edit | Re: Hmmm My swipe is at any company, union, management, anyone who would pick seniority as a criterion for who gets the axe.
IF, and I mean IF a company decided they must cut payroll, whether the anti-capitalists see it as justified or not, it should be those worst performers who get the axe. It shouldn't be "last hired first fired". I think that is fundamentally unfair, nearly as unfair as a company laying off people just to maximize profit for the quarter to the long term detriment of the company.
We can "yeah but Verizon suits..." all day long. This seniority is my pet peeve and the only issue I'm harping about. Not the value of the union, or whether or not the workers are overpaid or underpaid or anything else. As far as the union goes I believe the IBEW is absolutely necessary otherwise the corporate machine would simply roll over them and turn them all into Wal*Mart drones. But that doesn't excuse the things that the union or company does that I disagree with like using seniority to determine who goes or standing in the way of higher worker productivity. I feel bad that anyone gets laid off but I feel worse that perhaps someone who was recently hired, finally got a job and busted ass got dumped so that potentially a long time lazy sh!thead could keep his job.
If you want to hear a union related rant from me it would be about hypocrites like Limbaugh. While fathead rags on unions for negotiating contracts for their membership, fathead has an agent maximizing his salary and benefits to the point he can buy jets and potentially a football team. The day he negotiates his own wages he can criticize others for having representation. Pill headed hypocrite. /rant off | |
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| | | | | | KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK Reviews:
·AT&T DSL Service
| said by Z80:Seniority should not be a criterion, ever. If you think the length of time someone floats around the union bowl should matter, more power to ya. I don't. And How much value to you place on "length of time someone serves a company loyally and gains experience, knowledge and training"? Should that not matter either? By your proclamations, nope.
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"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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| | | | | | | | Z801 point 77Premium
join:2009-08-31
Amerika | Re: Hmmm Length of time at a particular employer is not synonymous with "experience, knowledge and training".
What if the new hire just came from a competitor and has 20 years of experience but only 8 months at Verizon or in the IBEW? "G'bye guy, you don't have seniority. It doesn't matter how good you actually are."
We also know there is a difference between 10 years experience and 10 years of 1 year experience. So no, I don't see seniority as justification for anything. Length of time is irrelevant. Job performance whether from years of experience from that employer, from another previous employer or simple natural bust ass talent is. | |
|
Fishie
join:2003-01-14
Riverside, CA | Unions DO NOT make the decision to lay-off. The company or corporation makes THAT decision. The company/corporation is the one who decides the lay-off criteria. Unions have virtually no power when it comes to lay-offs. However, they can try and make it financially debilitating so the company/corporation changes it's mind. Also, they can oversee the lay-off to make sure they company or corporation adheres to their criteria fairly. | |
| | Z801 point 77Premium
join:2009-08-31
Amerika | Re: Hmmm That is simply not true. The unions absolutely have say in who gets laid off, particularly when it comes to seniority. | |
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grays
join:2006-02-14
Rochelle Park, NJ | well if you want to be a boss go ahead & bust your butt & see if it works for you.your plan would have some poor 50 year old man who has 30 years in the company be fired because his knees are shot from hooking poles for 20 years.sounds fair doesn't it.we have always helped out the senior employes.I did & I felt no anger toward them.they were smart-knew their job & had some great stories.I backed them .you however seem very selfish that you do not have my back.how many strikes did you go thru so todays workers would have what they have? how many picket lines have you been on? many people paid their dues for you.your attitude reeks of "poor me"-I pray we have some real men in our ranks otherwise you & I are doomed. | |
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