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|  openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:2 | Re: hmmm..... How is protecting the intelligence interests of our national security shilling? Continual parading of shill accusations is an empty argument that contributes nothing to the actual discussion...except derailing it into a pissing contest. | |
| |  DrModemPremium
join:2006-10-19
USA
kudos:1 | Re: hmmm..... said by openbox9:How is protecting the intelligence interests of our national security shilling? That excuse to keep stuff secret is yanked out so many times it's now hilarious.
So a few terrorists hit buildings with airplanes on Sept 11 2001. An attack that could have been very prevented with security measures as simple as not letting people carry boxcutters with them on a plane and having a stronger locked door to the pilot cockpit.
And after that, suddenly everything from Comcast's cable footprint to warrentless wiretapping immunity lobbying docs is kept top secret because it "threatens National Security".
Yea, right. | |
| | | openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:2 | Re: hmmm..... said by DrModem:suddenly everything from Comcast's cable footprint to warrentless wiretapping immunity lobbying docs is kept top secret because it "threatens National Security". If this information was TS, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I doubt the information is even considered secret, but if it is, then once again we wouldn't be having this conversation. As for an "excuse", there's no need for excuses if elements of truth exist. | |
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| | | The end does not justify the mean. We have laws and processes to protect "the people" from specific harms laid out in the constitution and other laws.
So it's a conflict of interest. One set of laws demanding protection, the other, to protect intelligence interests.
Basically it's a big can of worms whatever side of this you're on...
Who is going to watch the watcher? The govt is simply a collection of people, who have faults and their own personal agenda. Sometimes they do wrong. Covering THAT up is bad. | |
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 Mr FelFlynn LivesPremium
join:2008-03-17
Louisville, KY | Nope, I have the popcorn, you bring the drinks and watch the show unfold. | |
| | | | | openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:2 | Re: hmmm..... To the poster above me, how is collecting intelligence on suspected terrorists not in the interest of national security? | |
| | | |  woody7Premium
join:2000-10-13
Torrance, CA | Re: hmmm..... you do not have a way to quantify your claim, or you would. I'm not against "national security"per say, but when broad claims are made without "evidence" to substantiate the said claim, then you are just shilling or trolling for the telcos. I'm tired of hearing it's in our best interests without knowing. This is the same crap we heard about Vietnam, (for full disclosure, I served 2 tours, and I knew it was bullshit, but as long as I was there my brother didn't have to go) so don't lecture me on "national security" unless you have the facts to back it up. Peace
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BlooMe | |
| | | | | openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:2 | Re: hmmm..... Can we please stop trotting out the inappropriately used term of shill. I have no financial motivation or loyalty ties enticing me to express my opinions, just as I don't believe you do either. Disclosure has it's place. You're right. I don't have proof to support my claim of national security interests anymore than you have proof otherwise. I know this tends to be an odd concept these days, but I have faith in our government's ability to keep me safe and the actions it takes to do so. | |
| | | | | | woody7Premium
join:2000-10-13
Torrance, CA | Re: hmmm..... However noble, "unquestioned" loyalty/faith is not a good thing in my opinion. But whenever a story comes up about the "telcos" and their obvious disregard for the rule of law, whether directed by the govt. or not, are we supposed to take their actions on "faith" that we are being protected ?. Mechanisms were in place to cover their "collective" asses, but they chose to disregard them, and that is the problem. Now we are told to just accept that, I think not. I am an Obama supporter, but am getting disillusioned more every day. Just look at the financial sector, we are told if we don't bail them out we are doomed, and now we find that they are still screwing us, but with taxpayer money.
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BlooMe | |
| | | | | | | | | Re: hmmm..... Evidence? Really? Are you privy to every Top Secret inititiative set forth by our gov't? How about your ass is still alive? Ah, thats not good enough.
Its a trumped up threat... Believe that all you want... let me guess, it was bush and co, that blew up the towers...
Vietnam didn't attack us the way islamic militants did. Your anger is misguided... In fact, why not move to Canada or France, oh wait, they listen to your calls there too.... Another wacky ass gov't... Maybe china?
Show me your proof where your rights were violated...oh wait, you cant... | |
| | | | | | | | DrModemPremium
join:2006-10-19
USA
kudos:1
1 edit | Re: hmmm..... said by Go Tarheels:Evidence? Really? Are you privy to every Top Secret inititiative set forth by our gov't? Are you? You sure act like it.
said by Go Tarheels:How about your ass is still alive? Ah, thats not good enough. How about correlation is not causation?
I'm sure on September 10th 2001 you would have been making this argument just as grandly, only to have a huge terrorist attack the next day. The fact is, you have NO FACTUAL EVIDENCE as to whether there hasn't been terrorist attacks because the government is protecting you or because the terrorists haven't decided to do one.
said by Go Tarheels:Show me your proof where your rights were violated...oh wait, you cant... Show him your proof that his rights weren't violated...oh wait, you cant... | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Re: hmmm..... Well I could listen to 2 administrations who have both said that these programs have stopped attacks. Two administrations on the opposite ends of the political spectrum....
I don't need to show proof... If you are the making the accusation, then the onus is on you to prove it... | |
| | | | | | | | |  manfmmdPremium
join:2003-01-14
Earth, TX
 ·AT&T Southwest
 ·CMA Access
1 edit | Thwarted terrorists attacks, by accident or by investigation:
»www.heritage.org/research/Homela···2085.cfm
Criticisms of post-9/11 efforts to protect the United States from attack range from claims that America is more vulnerable than ever to the contention that the transnational terrorist danger is vastly over-hyped. A review of publicly available information on at least 19 terrorist conspiracies thwarted by U.S. law enforceÂment suggests that the truth lies somewhere in between these two arguments. JFK Plot, June 2007
Fort Dix Plot, May 2007
Liquid Explosives Plot, August 2006
Assem Hammoud, July 2006
Narseal Batiste, Patrick Abraham, Stanley Grant Phanor, Naudimar Herrera, Burson Augustin, Lyglenson Lemorin, and Rotschild Augstine, June 2006
Syed Haris Ahmed and Ehsanul Islam Sadequee, April 2006
Mohammad Zaki Amawi, Marwan Othman El-Hindi, Zand Wassim Mazloum, February 2006
Michael C. Reynolds, December 5, 2005
Levar Haley Washington, Gregory Vernon Patterson, Hammad Riaz Samana, and Kevin James, August 2005
Umer Hayat and Hamid Hayat, June 2005Yassin Aref and Mohammed Hossain, August 2004
James Elshafay and Shahawar Matin Siraj, August 2004
Dhiren Barot, August 2004
Virginia "Jihad" Network, June 2003
Iyman Faris, May 2003
Lackawanna Six, September 2002
Jose Padilla, May 2002
Richard Reid, December 2001
Not to mention the two recent thwarted attacks in Dallas and Denver/NYC.
Dallas plot: »news.google.com/news/search?aq=f···las+plot
Denver/NYC Plot: »news.google.com/news/search?aq=f···nyc+plot
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"The trouble with our Liberal friends is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so." - Ronald Reagan | |
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| | | | | | | woody7Premium
join:2000-10-13
Torrance, CA | I can't show you proof that my rights were violated, because it is being suppressed. But what is known is that the "telcos" did in fact violate "my" and "your" rights. I don't feel any more or less safe, I like the Israelis am going to cope with the threat, see how there is no defense against terrorism, only the ability cope, unless we live in a police state and give up our hard earned rights.The point I made about Vietnam was that we were bombarded with the same rhetoric that is being spewed now. I am not angry, but you apparently are. I didn't even mention Bush, but you did. Why is it that everything that the government does for our "safety" has to be clouded in secrecy? When I ask a question, you answer with a question, but nothing to back it up. It is obvious that we will never see eye to eye on this. Peace
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BlooMe | |
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