Topic 'could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv' in forum 'Verizon FIOS TV' - dslreports.com http://www.dslreports.com/forum/could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23221828 en Thu, 09 Feb 2012 04:23:26 EDT Thu, 09 Feb 2012 04:23:26 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23319790 said by shark2k:

I just checked out Iron Man and it's encoded using AVC at 27.127 Mbps. That is probably the average bit rate, but that average is already abut 8 Mbps higher than what TV maxes out at and Blu-ray maxes out at 40 Mbps. Just saw a review of the new Star Trek on AVSForums and they listed the video as 32 Mbps with the audio accounting for another 4 Mbps.

Didn't really want to bump this thread but that video figure is 5Mb higher than I'm used to seeing and if you add the audio in (assuming that it doesn't need to be quadrupled) you'd need 132Mbps for a fully effective 2160p.

"That's a big twinkie"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23319790 Tue, 10 Nov 2009 11:20:52 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23307272 said by matcarl:

Here's an interesting story on Ultra HD

»www.multichannel.com/article/383···_Def.php
That is cool to know, matcarl.. I hope we do see 4K or 8K Ultra HD in the next 5-10 years.

shark2k, I stand corrected, I wrote 1080p in error but I do think if cable used an IPTV based U-Verse like approach & they weren't transmitting all their cable channels to the customer at the same time, I would think they should be able to pump out even 300Mbps of Mpeg4 picture quality (easily enough for even 3 8K channels) and I do think its worth it, my feeling anyway.

At this point I pretty much brought up all I could on this so i'll try to leave this my last reply]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23307272 Sat, 07 Nov 2009 17:37:27 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23306740 said by techygeek:

I would think cable can do this too but I think they would have to make an entirely new delivery system based on IPTV, forget the docsys approach. If AT&T can deliver 1080p & high speed internet via copper lines, I would think cable should be able to do the same thing with coax at 2160p.

It would mean a huge change and boxes that support IPTV but it wouldn't be the first time cable came out with a newer type of system. Best of my knowledge, there are both analog & digital systems out even now, this would be yet a newer type of system.

With cable, I feel it happening anytime too soon which is where I think VZ has the chance to grab the spotlight by offering it through FIOS.
AT&T doesn't send out 1080p broadcasts and on top of that they use both fiber-to-the-node technology and have also been using fiber-to-the-premise technology recently (what Verizon did with FiOS from the start). I got this from Wikipedia. Either way, AT&T Uverse probably used more fiber than cable companies who are really hybrids (use some fiber but a majority coaxial or something like that).

You just don't seem to be understanding the fact that the amount of bandwidth required is huge and really not worth it.

-Shark2k]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23306740 Sat, 07 Nov 2009 14:59:17 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23306598
It would mean a huge change and boxes that support IPTV but it wouldn't be the first time cable came out with a newer type of system. Best of my knowledge, there are both analog & digital systems out even now, this would be yet a newer type of system.

With cable, I feel it happening anytime too soon which is where I think VZ has the chance to grab the spotlight by offering it through FIOS.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23306598 Sat, 07 Nov 2009 14:14:23 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23306523 said by matcarl:

From the article:
as well as 22.2-channel “three-dimensional” sound
I will have to start negotiations with my wife now for enough wallspace in 2015 to mount 24 speakers...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23306523 Sat, 07 Nov 2009 13:47:46 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23306262
»www.multichannel.com/article/383···_Def.php]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23306262 Sat, 07 Nov 2009 12:40:36 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23274789 said by aaronwt:

Here is a site that shows a comaprison of BD release titles and what it was encoded with, size, length, layers, audio codec, etc.

»www.blu-raystats.com/Stats/Stats···easeDateThanks aaron, that's a great site.

I just checked out Iron Man and it's encoded using AVC at 27.127 Mbps. That is probably the average bit rate, but that average is already abut 8 Mbps higher than what TV maxes out at and Blu-ray maxes out at 40 Mbps.

Another thing about Iron Man is that the disc is filled to 47.23 GBs on a BD50 (50 GB Blu-ray). Now, there are extras on the first disc with the movie, so let's say that takes up 7 GBs (being generous, there are deleted/extended scenes). So we'll say Iron Man uses 40 GBs (though I'm not 100% sure if that site gives the amount of space taken up on the disc or the size of the actual movie on the disc, because if it's the latter that would mean the extras have roughly 2.77 GBs left to be put on that disc). Either way, if the movie is 40 GBs, and since 2160p is 4x the resolution of 1080p and techygeek said it would be 4x the size for a movie in 2160p, that would be iron man at 160 GBs (or 188.92 GBs if 47.23 GBs is the size of the movie). That is a lot of space and that is just for 1 movie.

Really, 2160p is not worth it. The amount of bandwidth it would need to keep it looking good (assuming it's 4x the max bandwidth 1080p uses, would be 76 Mbps) and cable providers (with FiOS probably being an exception) do not have that kind of bandwidth.

-Shark2k]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23274789 Sun, 01 Nov 2009 14:07:18 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23273882 said by shark2k:

said by techygeek:

On quality of BD, while its hi bitrate and minimally compressed Mpeg2 means a signal just about as clean as it can be, I don't disagree but when I see even BD on a 65" or greater its starts to look more like a good clean DVD (another words, softer). What I would like to see is a move to 2160p with a conversion to Mpeg4 at 30Mbps on a larger capacity disk. I don't know all the math but I feel that the right mix can fit it with a clean sig as respectable as it looks now.
I don't feel like reading all of your post right now (BTW, you really should learn how to quote properly as it makes it so much easier to read).

But on this you need to be told that the bitrate for cable is maxed out at 19 Mbps already for MPEG-2. Providers that use MPEG-4 tend to max out at 14 Mbps because they get the same, maybe a little better, results at the bit rate as they would at the 19 Mbps for MPEG-2. Now, the biggest thing you got wrong is that almost all Blu-rays that have been released in the past year or 2 (maybe a little longer) are being encoded in AVC (MPEG-4).

I gotta ask. These TVs you used to compare, where they in a store? Cause if that is the case, that is your problem right there. Stores do not properly calibrate TVs. If you are really going to do a side-by-side comparison, you need to do it with TVs that are properly calibrated so as to get the best picture out of both of them.

And, let's not forget that image quality is all subjective, so what looks soft to you might not look soft to me.

-Shark2k
Here is a site that shows a comaprison of BD release titles and what it was encoded with, size, length, layers, audio codec, etc.

»www.blu-raystats.com/Stats/Stats···easeDate]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23273882 Sun, 01 Nov 2009 09:16:31 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23273499
well let me go back to holloween movies, now I'm scared]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23273499 Sun, 01 Nov 2009 03:40:14 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23270979 said by techygeek:

On quality of BD, while its hi bitrate and minimally compressed Mpeg2 means a signal just about as clean as it can be, I don't disagree but when I see even BD on a 65" or greater its starts to look more like a good clean DVD (another words, softer). What I would like to see is a move to 2160p with a conversion to Mpeg4 at 30Mbps on a larger capacity disk. I don't know all the math but I feel that the right mix can fit it with a clean sig as respectable as it looks now.I don't feel like reading all of your post right now (BTW, you really should learn how to quote properly as it makes it so much easier to read).

But on this you need to be told that the bitrate for cable is maxed out at 19 Mbps already for MPEG-2. Providers that use MPEG-4 tend to max out at 14 Mbps because they get the same, maybe a little better, results at the bit rate as they would at the 19 Mbps for MPEG-2. Now, the biggest thing you got wrong is that almost all Blu-rays that have been released in the past year or 2 (maybe a little longer) are being encoded in AVC (MPEG-4) or VC-1.

I gotta ask. These TVs you used to compare, where they in a store? Cause if that is the case, that is your problem right there. Stores do not properly calibrate TVs. If you are really going to do a side-by-side comparison, you need to do it with TVs that are properly calibrated so as to get the best picture out of both of them.

And, let's not forget that image quality is all subjective, so what looks soft to you might not look soft to me.

-Shark2k]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23270979 Sat, 31 Oct 2009 13:59:44 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23269161
Sure there will probably be consumer 2160P TVs in the future, but HDTV has been out over 10 years now and the majority of people that even have HD sets don't even have 1080P. They only have 720P or 1080i.
In 10 years that might change, but even in ten years people with 2160P sets would probably still be in the vast minority.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23269161 Fri, 30 Oct 2009 23:46:54 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23269032 Although 2.5TB drives are expected early ...... will not be able to tell the difference between 1080i and 1080P./

Well, based on the accelerating way technology has been going; in all likeliness, if their coming out with 2.5TB within 6 months, 5TB is probably 18 months away. On the pipe dream thing, I just don't get this.. non belief in possibilities like this. Only a few years ago, people thought it was amazing that cable modems hit 1Mbps download speed, 150Mbps could be right around the corner. Would you foot the cost of putting on a concert for nobody, would you go to a concert if the band wasn't showing up, if there is no network to deliver a given signal then there is no point in making the HDTV's, the cameras that generate the signal or the recorders. Many of the experts have clearly proved that interlaced vs progressive has strongly obvious differences. While 1080i, im sure looks great, side by side, 1080p probably looks smoother yet still just as sharp with more accurate color.

/MichaelWacey/It seems to me that going beyond 1080P30 for most home TV uses is probably overkill ..... price could come down to something reasonable./

There are actually 2 prototype 2160p HDTV's I know of, 1 is a 55" Westinghouse & the other, an 85" Samsung, they are likely at least $50,000 but when you think about it, why shouldn't they be. As far a I know, no one will make any material or build a network so why would there be any benefit in trying to improve the technology or get the prices down. Pictures would be an interesting idea, true but come on, it would look pretty cool to see Star Wars on a wall almost like a mura, and lifelike looking too.

I don't know definitives but i'm sure back in the early 90's, an HDTV could have been at least $25,000ish. There has to be a way to market it first before the price can come down and without a market, without a way to deliver the signal, how can that happen.

/blue_trooper/Dry up? How did you get the name "TechyGeek"?/

I have only heard this, I’m not trying to say plasma is bad, I’m just telling you what I heard. On the name, i'm no preclaimed expert, I just like the name.

/lets456/....

If I understand you right, I definately agree.. I always felt that the info button on most remotes should also provide the bitrate, recorded format (ie: Mpeg4) & true resolution & display format (ie:720p). Its like comparing apples to oranges and the provider saying, whats the difference as long as its fruit. If we knew what quality level we were seeing, we could pressure providers, broadcasters, etc. to make sure the quality of the signals are as good as the quantity of their channels.

/shark2k/....

how do I get 4x... Isn't the size of an HDTV measured diagonally.. I doubled the height & I doubled the width, thats how I got 4x.

Not softer argument... I see it on a 52", 61" may be borderline but you should know that I did a side by side comparison of the same model at 65" and not only was it clearly softer but all the issues such as blocking, misquito effect start to really show up, in fact it was more noticeable than the pristine look HD is supposed to deliver in the first place. Even though I could afford the 65" at twice the price, i didn't want it. Also, i looked at many of the 65" + sizes all of them clearly softer that any of the 52" or lower sizes and I am no expert. I agree about BD which is why it makes me cringe to hear all this bragging about how many channels are available when its clear, some of these providers squash that bitrate down and probably soften the picture to compensate and they don't have to say anything about it, they just say "ooh we have the best hd". This is why I feel it should be required to disclose the quality as well.

One more thing on that, I don't expect the bitrate to match BD at 30-40Mbps but it should at least be 16Mbps or its crimping to squeeze in the channels, thats what I feel. I mean use SDV technology if necessary, I think 2160p capability should be there though it doesn't mean what goes over it has to be 2160p but it least its capable of it.

On quality of BD, while its hi bitrate and minimally compressed Mpeg2 means a signal just about as clean as it can be, I don't disagree but when I see even BD on a 65" or greater its starts to look more like a good clean DVD (another words, softer). What I would like to see is a move to 2160p with a conversion to Mpeg4 at 30Mbps on a larger capacity disk. I don't know all the math but I feel that the right mix can fit it with a clean sig as respectable as it looks now.

DLP: That was my experience in the store with 1 TV, its not enough to make a fair comparason, im just saying what I saw. If things were tighter at the time, I might have bought DLP anyway but lets just say i'm glad I could dig deeper in my pocket for an LCD eqivalent in size. If there was a 2160p DLP 85" for $3,000, I would buy it if there was at least 2 channels and a provider would deliver it, hopefully with the promise of more channels in the future.

Digital cameras.. zoom is one reason but the main reason I heard is the desire to try to be as close to film quality as possible. I can't believe I have to press this, go to www.canon.com and look at a high resolution 16.7Mp image just on your HD, it looks like your really there. Why shouldn't we demand the same of our TV quality, we pay enough for it.

Laptop.. what i neglected to say is that the 1680x1050 & the 1200x800 rez's were the native rez's for 2 different laptops, both were compared in their native rez. Also, i made this comparason many times with many different machines. Perfect example.. notice when the rez goes up the icons get smaller, thats cause you can make out the detail now, take a look at the same icons in a lower rez, see if they look as detailed, bet they dont.

85" TV vs how far you need to be back.. I don't think this is that much a big deal in the living room until the screen is over 100" diagonal. I think there should be an option to zoom out on the picture (make it smaller) with newer sets if that is such an issue.

What a disc can hold.. It may not be exact but its close enough.. I mean I think its fair to say if 2160p needs 4x the info to display what 1080p needs, all else being equal, it should need nearly 4x the space. Could you imagine a high bitrate and 2160p on an 85" monitor. It would be like your really there.

---I just want to make sure something is clear here.. I am not trying in any way to personally attack anyone or overly push this, I simply wanted to reply to all the various disagreements about what I posted --

At this point I will close my argument here as I have pretty much pressed it as much as it can be pressed but feel free of course to continue discussing it, I love reading about this stuff.

This is either going to happen or it's not, I know one thing, I would sign up with the one who offered it, its just more bang for the buck and the people I know personally all of who I asked about it agree, why not for the same reason.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23269032 Fri, 30 Oct 2009 23:00:24 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23254837
Now, you say a high bitrate, higher resolution should be the aim so all signals look the same. You don't need a higher resolution for all signals to look the same. Have you ever watched a Blu-ray movie on a 1080p TV? That is the highest resolution out now and on a good Blu-ray encode you do not get blocking, mosquito effect, etc. based on the size screen you are watching it on. All of that is based on the bitrate. The max bitrate of video on Blu-ray is 40 Mbps. The max bitrate used for MPEG-2 in TV transmission is 19 Mbps, basically half the max bitrate of Blu-ray. With MPEG-4 I believe the max bitrate in TV transmission is less, somewhere around 14/15 Mbps (someone correct me if I'm wrong, thanks). So, if you want all signals to look the same, TV is going to need to allow for higher bitrates and the picture quality will increase.

Now, onto what you said about Plasma's. I've never heard that they dry up, but that doesn't matter. Plasma's give better black levels and more accurate colors. Brighter is not always better. As to DLP, they should remind you of rear projection TVs as they themselves are rear projection TVs. My TV is a DLP TV and and it is not a very dark picture and somewhat blurry. It is a very good picture actually.

About your argument about the digital cameras. That is completely different. With a camera, you want higher Megapixels because the more MP's the closer you can zoom in on a picture without it looking crappy. So there really is no point. I'm not gonna be zooming in with my TV on an HD program. Simply put, with a camera you want as many MP's as possible so that if you like to crop your images (which in effect zooms in on the image) you want as much detail in the picture as possible.

In the same paragraph you mentioned the digital cameras, you also mentioned setting a 15" diagonal widescreen display on a laptop to 1680x1050 then 1200x800. First if you are talking about a laptop or computer monitor the aspect ratio could be 16:10. That being said, 1680x1050 is a 16:10 ratio. 1200x800 is not a 16:10 ratio, therefore scaling needs to be done which will not give you the best image. Secondly, monitors/TVs for the past few years have what is called a Native Resolution. I mention this because setting your desktop resolution to the native resolution results in the best looking picture. Again, with your example, 1680x1050 is probably the native resolutoin which means it will look better than 1200x800.

You say 2160p on 85" TV, that would be awesome. Read my post where I posted a link. That will give you the distance needed to get the benefit of the higher resolutions. Basically, the higher the resolution, the closer you need to sit to get the full benefit.

On to what you wrote in reply to what you quoted by me. Blu-ray can hold up to 50 GBs on the largest discs, 25 GBs on the smallest. I don't thing you can say because 2160p is 4x the resolution is is going to necessarily take up 4x the space. I think it could possibly take more or less, depending on bitrate used and other factors. I also don't think 1080p would be 1.5 times the size of a 720p movie just because it has 1.5 times more resolution than 720p. Either way, I don't think your calculations are correct.

Either way, you seem to fail to realize the amount of bandwidth and storage that would be needed for 2160p and the fact that it probably really isn't worth it when there are ways to make the existing 1080 resolution look better (even though increasing the bitrate won't happen because some cable companies have already lowered bitrates to squeeze more HD channels onto a QAM).

Blu_Trooper, I was thinking the same thing about his name.

Lets456: Another great point. I pointed out in this post that by increasing the bitrate would make TV feeds look better. But the source material is also important.

-Shark2k]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23254837 Wed, 28 Oct 2009 13:08:59 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23254812 said by Greg2600:

said by shark2k:

Edit: Greg, it's actually the reverse. The bigger the screen, the closer you would need to sit as the resolution increases. Check out the chart in the link I pasted.

-Shark2k
Ah, always mix it up. So beyond 1080p, there's really no point?
what nobody seems to recognize is the "source" as well. I'd take 720P BD over 1080P upconverted, altered, low bitrate, compressed and stretched any day.

Pure 720P is excellent on my 46" and 51" HD sets. ESPN's 720P seems better than some other sports stations in 1080I.
To me, source and how it is delivered is just as important as resolution. My Samsung 1080P full HD, uncompressed can leave you watering at the mouth while watching uncompressed 1080P.
My friend's 55" LED/LCD is the same way...just can not see how it can get much better than 1080P at that size. I guess if you have a 120" screen then maybe, but i think using up all that extra space from 1080P to 2160P would not be worth it on typical Tv sizes.

Then again, when I first heard of 1080P I was like ...yeah right!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23254812 Wed, 28 Oct 2009 13:04:08 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23254720 said by techygeek:

I have heard plasma's dry up after about 10 years, Dry up?

How did you get the name "TechyGeek"?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23254720 Wed, 28 Oct 2009 12:51:12 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23254040
The big question is could a still frame at that resolution be produced at a reasonable price? It would have to support WiFi to get the pictures. It would not need to support motion, so the electronics might be easier. I guess if they caught on, the price could come down to something reasonable.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23254040 Wed, 28 Oct 2009 11:15:28 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23253616 Although 2.5TB drives are expected early next year. So if you take two of them and create a RAID 0, that would get you 5TB.

Anyway 2160 is a pipe dream. There are no consumer Tvs that have that resolution and most people don't even have a set capable of 1080P. There is no point in offering a resolution that no one can even take advantage of.
A 1080P broadcast might make sense, but with a properly deinterlaced 1080i signal you will not be able to tell the difference between 1080i and 1080P.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23253616 Wed, 28 Oct 2009 10:10:27 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23252799
Forgive me if I had misquoted anyone, i think its all correct, more important it is to reply to the point made, not to that particular person.

first, what I would have wrote- not replies:
At a bitrate of about 72Mbps for a very good quality 2160p signal (based on, VZ was already talking of offering internet speeds to the home of 100Mbps so wheres the limitation, IPTV & SDV technology in use, it would likely work a lot like AT&T's U-Verse but with plenty more speed cause it is over coax or fiber.

Ok, lets use this concept -- what AT&T did with U-Verse to offer at least 1 HDTV sig, why can't Verizon apply the same technology, maybe by adding another spectrum of light, to offer UHD technology.

I think AT&T could do it too, but they would likely have to go to at least coax if not fiber.

2160p on an 85" TV, that would be awesome.

Replies:
/user=dmodert66-bquote= techygeek See Profile/
As I said above, it's really not a decision for VZ to make right now, it's the broadcasters decision first...
/

/user=KenAF-quote/...No TVs can handle 2160p input so there'd be no point to support it./

I disagree with the thinking that movement with 2160p starts with either the broadcasters or having to wait for this TV to be created. I would imagine the telephone network had to be created before telephones (with the exception of, maybe, prototypes) were made. After all, what is the point of making telephones if there's no network to use them on.

Same thing goes for this new technology, once there is a way to get the signal from point a, to point b, then it pays to both make equipment that can both send it and receive it.

In short, this whole thing has to start with the network.

/user=JonHB:/ Seriously, 2160p? Most people can't tell the difference between 720p and 1080i. Sure, I enjoy 1080p content and I would like to see some of the channels going that direction, but I really don't see anyone going to 2160p any time soon./

Seriously, 2160p? Most people can't tell the difference between 720p and 1080i. Sure, I enjoy my 1080p content and I would like to see some of the channels going that direction, but I really don't see anyone going to 2160p any time soon./

This is another place I just laugh at, ok maybe many don't know terminologies but a similar battle is going on right now in the still life, it is the digital camera industry where resolutions are something like 5000x3333 (or 16.7MP). Cant tell the difference? My eyesight may even be worse then some, set the 15" diagonal widescreen display on a laptop to 1680x1050 then 1200x800, see if you can tell the difference on a screen that small, its sharper, more detailed, clearer even with a display that small. If you can see it there, you can believe you can see it on a 65" HDTV.

/user=xer0derm-bquote=uid:/
... The newer technology is going to be this 3d-TV. For one, I would much prefer it to be without glasses, but I don't expect that to become mainstream for at least another decade./

3D TV with glasses, weve been there before, this supposidely was tried (or at least I know it was going to be tried) back in the early 80's, soon after it came out in the movies. It had its chance and disappeared, I find its too hard on the eyes, those differences in color on one eye to the other and often the image is either out of focus or double. I could probably take it for up to 20 mins but I feel they should really be working on improving both resolution & bitrate for a crisper picture.

/user=JUG831:/
..And finally....how many seconds of UHDTV can the 160gb VZ DVR hold? Well, at least the upcoming rumored 320gb DVR will hold double.../

Thats why I feel this new box should also support an external usb 2.0 or SATA hard drive.

/user=Greg2600:/ 1080p really is a maximum resolution. To get any effect beyond that, you would need a gigantic screen, and would have to be sitting in your neighbor's living room. I think people are mistaking higher resolution for an improvement in image quality. I hear that DLP is the sharpest picture, and currently no one is developing anything beyond that. Plasmas could be on the way out, and they are better to watch than LCD's./

I disagree, I have heard plasma's dry up after about 10 years, I don't know how true that is, I can tell you that I have looked at LCD vs Plasma & I have felt that LCD seems brighter and sharper, also I think the plasma equivalents tend to be much more expensive. As far as DLP, i've seen DLP and it reminds me of the rear projection TV's of old, very dark picture, a lot of glare, somewhat blurry & just walk a little to the side and the pictures brightness drastically drops down. True this has been my experience but I have been told, the eyes don't lie so there has to be at least some truth to it.

1080p will look softer with TV's north of 52", 1080p may be 4x 480p but 52" diag is numerically 4x 26" diag ignoring the screen ratio (ie 4:3, 16:9) so theoretically 1080p probably looks sharp up to a 52". I've looked at larger screen TV's and not only does it soften but all those limitations from squeezing down the bitrate start to show up more (ie: blocking, misquito effect, etc.). A high bitrate, higher resolution should be the aim so all signals look the same.

/user=shark2k-bquote/
.. And the biggest problem with the higher resolution, as I saw at least one person point out, is the fact that it requires a ridiculous amoung of storage just for a 20 min video (4 TB, terabytes).../

That doesn't add up, ok maybe im missing something but if a blue-ray holds about 30GB & 2160p is 4x the resolution, shouldn't it take up no more than 4x the space, 120GB for a 2 hr movie. I swore I saw a hard drive the other day that now has 5TB's of space, based on this calculation, that would be almost 50, 2 hour movies or about 100 minutes of recording space.

If some reason im wrong and were not there yet, then limit the resolution captured to the DVR to 1080p for now.

if just one channel was started now, were still talking a window of probably 10 years at least before we likely had access to, say, 100 channels of 2160p so no better way to say it, lets get going]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23252799 Wed, 28 Oct 2009 05:04:14 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23231345 said by Greg2600:

Ah, always mix it up. So beyond 1080p, there's really no point?Don't worry, I get the mixed up all the time also. I need things like that article or the chart to remind me.

As to beyond 1080p having no point, I would say it really depends on if you want to be able to sit closer to your TV and still have the image look crisp and not see pixels. But at some point people are just not going to want to sit so close to have to get the full benefit of the resolution. 1080p is probably a good resolution to be at.

-Shark2k]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23231345 Fri, 23 Oct 2009 15:44:06 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23230975 said by shark2k:

Edit: Greg, it's actually the reverse. The bigger the screen, the closer you would need to sit as the resolution increases. Check out the chart in the link I pasted.

-Shark2k
Ah, always mix it up. So beyond 1080p, there's really no point?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23230975 Fri, 23 Oct 2009 14:46:33 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23229134
1080p24 is less resolution the 1080i ( 24 vs 30 frames per second ) so its actually about 20% less overhead for DTV on the satellites.

All people see is the "p" and think its better. Also most TV's don't do p24 so the STB has to convert to what you TV can handle ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23229134 Fri, 23 Oct 2009 09:16:06 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23227686 said by KenAF:

Actually, DirecTV launched a 1080p24 PPV channel last week. This is very similar to their 1080p24 VOD, but it's delivered via satellite as a channel.
I stand corrected than. Thanks for pointing that out to me.

-Shark2k]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23227686 Thu, 22 Oct 2009 22:09:32 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23227640 quote:
Nobody is broadcasting anything in 1080p. DirecTV (or is it Dish) offers VOD in 1080p, but that is not the same as broadcasting. No station broadcasts anything in 1080p. 1080i is the highest resolution broadcast at and if you have a good deinterlacer, 1080i and 1080p will look the same.


Actually, DirecTV launched a 1080p24 PPV channel last week. This is very similar to their 1080p24 VOD, but it's delivered via satellite as a channel.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23227640 Thu, 22 Oct 2009 22:01:34 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23227283 said by fishacura See ProfileOK...but who is it again who's broadcasting in 1080p???

I for one am a proponent of 4320...Unless those pixels are 1/75 of an inch or smaller, what's the point ;)Nobody is broadcasting anything in 1080p. DirecTV (or is it Dish) offers VOD in 1080p, but that is not the same as broadcasting. No station broadcasts anything in 1080p. 1080i is the highest resolution broadcast at and if you have a good deinterlacer, 1080i and 1080p will look the same.

If you do some reading up on the size and/or distance seated to a screen that are required for the next step above 1080p, you will realize that the only good use for those resolutions would be movie theatres. Also for, the effects of 1080p vs 720p becomer apparent when closer than 9.8 feet and become fully apparent when at 6.5 feet for a 50" TV. Read here: »carltonbale.com/2006/11/1080p-does-matter/ For the difference to be noticed between 1080p vs 2160p you would probably have to have your nose practically touching the screen.

And the biggest problem with the higher resolution, as I saw at least one person point out, is the fact that it requires a ridiculous amoung of storage just for a 20 min video (4 TB, terabytes). Imagine the amount of bandwidth it is going to take in order to send that video to somebody's TV. I don't even know if coaxial would be able to handle it (it could be just pushing the limit, not sure, just speculating).

Edit: Greg, it's actually the reverse. The bigger the screen, the closer you would need to sit as the resolution increases. Check out the chart in the link I pasted.

-Shark2k]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23227283 Thu, 22 Oct 2009 20:54:07 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23226079 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23226079 Thu, 22 Oct 2009 16:29:29 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23225374 quote:
I think this is more a result of the souce material (film or HDTV which is 1080i60) rather than limitations of Blu-Ray. I think Blu-Ray can handle 1080p60.
The Blu-ray specification does not currently support 1080p60 source material.

If a significant amount of 1080p60 source material were to become available at some point, then the Blu-ray specification could be amended to support that format. Current players could not support it, however; current Blu-ray players use decoders that only support up to 1080p30 (output at 1080p60 with 2:2 pulldown).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23225374 Thu, 22 Oct 2009 14:13:51 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23225351 million 80p that the cable guys claimed in the DirecTV anti-cable commercial ;-)
--
REMEMBER: Stupidity should be painful !!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23225351 Thu, 22 Oct 2009 14:09:27 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23225337 said by aaronwt:

Even Blu-ray Disc is only 1080P24.
I think this is more a result of the souce material (film or HDTV which is 1080i60) rather than limitations of Blu-Ray. I think Blu-Ray can handle 1080p60.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23225337 Thu, 22 Oct 2009 14:06:43 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23225266 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23225266 Thu, 22 Oct 2009 13:55:29 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23225201
....im just sayen...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23225201 Thu, 22 Oct 2009 13:43:43 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23224888 said by techygeek:

Even if we can't do 2160p yet, at least we should be aiming for the cleanest 1080p
OK...but who is it again who's broadcasting in 1080p???

I for one am a proponent of 4320...Unless those pixels are 1/75 of an inch or smaller, what's the point ;)

--
People who don't get good service on average tell 10 others while people who do get good service on average tell 1.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23224888 Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:55:11 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23224548 quote:
The bandwidth required for 1080P60 is extremely high.
Even Blu-ray Disc is only 1080P24.


Many of the older MPEG-2 Blu-ray titles used 35-45Mbps video. The typical ATSC 1080i MPEG-2 HD broadcast is probably 12-14Mbps. I doubt we'll ever see the same standard for quality even if certain channels are made available in 1080p60.

Motorola claims that its newest real-time encoders can do 1080p60 in MPEG-4 AVC @ 20Mbps. I doubt that number reflects the bandwidth requirements of a sports channel like ESPN, but I can see it done in 24-26Mbps. Consider that the satellite providers currently offer most of their 720p60 channels in MPEG-4 AVC @ 5-6Mbps, with ESPN-HD in 720p60 @ 8-12Mbps.

FiOS could probably fit a 25Mbps 1080p60 feed and two of HBO's 6-7Mbps MPEG-4 feeds into a single QAM.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23224548 Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:09:38 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23224306 said by KenAF:

quote:
Why ESPN? Don't they still broadcast in only 720p?


They do, but they recently upgraded their facilities to support 1080p60. They are also one of the few providers that has talked about the possibility of a 1080p60 channel with MPEG-4. If this comes to pass, it would likely supplement, rather than replace, their 720p60 channel.
The bandwidth required for 1080P60 is extremely high.
Even Blu-ray Disc is only 1080P24.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23224306 Thu, 22 Oct 2009 11:40:05 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23224010 quote:
Why ESPN? Don't they still broadcast in only 720p?
They do, but they recently upgraded their facilities to support 1080p60. They are also one of the few providers that has talked about the possibility of a 1080p60 channel with MPEG-4. If this comes to pass, it would likely supplement, rather than replace, their 720p60 channel.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23224010 Thu, 22 Oct 2009 11:02:04 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23222851 said by KenAF:

No TVs can handle 2160p input so there'd be no point to support it. The next step is 1080p60; we could see that in several years from major network or two, such as ESPN.
Why ESPN? Don't they still broadcast in only 720p?

In regards to 2160P, I think it's a little nuts. There's no point to go in that direction. The newer technology is going to be this 3d-TV. For one, I would much prefer it to be without glasses, but I don't expect that to become mainstream for at least another decade.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23222851 Thu, 22 Oct 2009 06:33:02 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23222635 quote:
Would FiOS going to switched digital video require new STBs?

Verizon's current infrastructure isn't compatible with SDV. When Verizon needs to expand capacity, it will move to MPEG-4 and IPTV.

No TVs can handle 2160p input so there'd be no point to support it. The next step is 1080p60; we could see that in several years from major network or two, such as ESPN.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23222635 Thu, 22 Oct 2009 02:45:39 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23222617 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23222617 Thu, 22 Oct 2009 02:35:21 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23222534 Hide and watch, Hob. We've got two of these guys that don't sleep at night, and beam in from the twilight zone periodically. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23222534 Thu, 22 Oct 2009 01:42:57 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23222339
But seriously, 1080P is the next logical step...someday. With broadcasters upgrading all equipment to handle current HD, it will take a while for the next leap to UHDTV. Need time to depreciate all those costs for the shareholders! ;)

And finally....how many seconds of UHDTV can the 160gb VZ DVR hold? Well, at least the upcoming rumored 320gb DVR will hold double... :p]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23222339 Thu, 22 Oct 2009 00:28:52 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23222338 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23222338 Thu, 22 Oct 2009 00:28:48 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23222015
Even if we can't do 2160p yet, at least we should be aiming for the cleanest 1080p]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23222015 Wed, 21 Oct 2009 23:04:28 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23221974 said by techygeek:

I am making a point on what I feel Verizon should do and also asking what people feel about it. I think that HD is stuck in the middle of nowhere with more like a "lets squeeze down the bitrate as much as we can to offer as many channels as we can race" or at least thats the way it seems, rather than moving forward to even better technology & picture.

I wanted to ask what people are feeling & hoping Verizon thinks this is the way to go.
Verizon does not "squeeze" down any channels (that I know of). They pass to the end user exactly what the broadcasters send. They do not alter the stream to my knowledge. As I said above, it's really not a decision for VZ to make right now, it's the broadcasters decision first...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23221974 Wed, 21 Oct 2009 22:51:12 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23221941
I wanted to ask what people are feeling & hoping Verizon thinks this is the way to go.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23221941 Wed, 21 Oct 2009 22:43:04 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23221923 said by hobgoblin:

I am a little confused with this post.

Hob
It's not confusing Hob. He thinks Verizon should broadcast a 2160p channel or 2. Never mind the fact that barely any (if any at all) currently broadcast in 1080p.

@ OP, I would think 1080p channels would come next (before any higher resolution), but that isn't up to Verizon. That would be up to the broadcasters. Once broadcasters start airing 1080p, then we can all chime in and tell Verizon we need boxes capable of 1080p (I don't think the current boxes can, but I could be wrong...)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23221923 Wed, 21 Oct 2009 22:39:48 EDT Re: could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23221900
Hob]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23221900 Wed, 21 Oct 2009 22:34:24 EDT could 2160p SDV give FIOS the edge over cable & sat tv http://www.dslreports.com/forum/could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23221828
Whatever it can carry at first, the travel channel, to me, its all about the awe. My 52" don't look all that big anymore and any bigger, the picture just doesn't seem to have that razor sharp look I seek so much when watching HD. How about some high school or college sports games in 2160p; the point is, it busts the door open and gives other technology companies an incentive to make 2160p equipment.

I hear of DirecTV offering 130 HD channels or Dish offering 1080p, in either case, one setup in a store, the salesman said was DirecTV & the other Dish with both HD monitors priced at least $3000 or more and it looked (i'm just being honest)- awful.. mosquito effects, noise around letters, blocking effects - we are talking about expensive investments. I only know its source cause I arbitrarily I asked the salesman and in both cases they said it was DirecTV, I made it sound like I wanted to know cause I wanted to sign up but I really just wanted to know what their provider was.

Ok, in all fairness, maybe it wasn't set up correctly, maybe the salesman was wrong, the point is not to fault sat tv, the point is to state out loud to these providers, we don't just want plenty of channels, we wan't quality channels. If I go out and buy a 30" monitor or an 85" monitor, the picture should look just as pristine.

Does this put satellite out of the running, of course not, but unless there is a similar technology they can use, it might mean having to launch at least another satellite to be able to offer the same channels using the standard (send them all at once) approach. Yes, cable can likely do 2160p SDV & along with DOCSIS 3.0 using their existing coax if they do it right but I feel its going to take longer for them to upgrade all their network architecture cause Verizon doesn't need to change out all their splitters (or something like that) as I read somewhere, cable has to do.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/could-2160p-SDV-give-FIOS-the-edge-over-cable-sat-tv-23221828 Wed, 21 Oct 2009 22:16:09 EDT