bcbuie
join:2005-07-20
| reply to JakeMoch
Re: Experience with Tranzeo WiMax 3.65GHZ?
Thanks, that is some really great information!
About the only thing that is really turning me off from the Tranzeo Pico Basestations at this point - the 15db max output power.
JakeMoch, has this been an issue for you guys at all? What make/model of sector antennas are you using typically to overcome the low output power?
Also, what channel widths were you guys using on the 3.65ghz gear? We were thinking of 3.5mhz channels just to maximize the available spectrum.
Also curious what kind of real-world throughput you are seeing at various signal strengths/modulations.
We were leaning towards the Vecima gear (max output power 27db) because of the low output power of the Tranzeo, but if there are antennas that can overcome the power limitation then maybe we should look at Tranzeo again. The Vecima gear isn't too bad price-wise (about $3,750 per sector), but still much higher than the Tranzeo ($1,700 per sector).
Thanks again,
Ben |
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JakeMoch
join:2009-11-04
Penticton, BC
| Tranzeo also sells a 17-20db SU which is about $40 more than the 15 but we haven't had to purchase any yet .... in most of our client situations the 15-17db unit works quite well.
SU throughput doesn't seem to be affected or varied from anywhere between -60 to -84 RSSI associations unless you get heavy unthrottled users (even radios associated at -88 will experience intermittant drops but will usually still have throughputs at what you set for them ... the pBS and SUs can be tweaked by the airsync controller to even out the db variances. Here is an average 10 kilometer status of a -70+ association of a 15 db model SU:
Link Status Linked
Auto-Negotiation ON
Speed 100Mb/s
Duplex Full
Wireless
Link Status OPERATIONAL
Frequency (Tx/Rx) 3.65175 GHz
Bandwidth 3.5 MHz
RF Profile TDD mode
CP Size 1/16
Tx Power (Max/Min/Cur) 20 / -10 / +20.00 dBm
Signal (RSSI/CINR) -71.75 dBm / +26.00 dB
I have had good success with the cheaper Til-Tek 3404-8-60 antenna sector models (less that $250 I think) we usually deploy the 60 degree sector antenna models ... but even the 20db 20x20 models work quite nicely (very cheap) ... in one application I used a splitter and each 20db 20x20 pointed 60 degrees apart (covered a 120 degree sector together)-- each antenna is acting like a 17db antenna but the average throughputs and RSSI values 9km away didn't take much of a hit on the statistic graphs at all from before it was split. I have found that I get long range full modulation at 11 kilometers even when turning the basestation down to output of 18 dbi.
We generally only use the 3.5 mhz channel bandwidth to maximize channels available.
Real world throughput for 2 loaded basestations on a single 4MB full backhaul radio feeding them is exactly what they are provisioned for ... we set most residental rates to 1.1MB down and 386K up ... RuralBus rates are set to 1.6 down and 512 up ... haven't seen the radios fall below those rates yet even under moderate load. I have tested radios at the 3 down and 1 up and even when under load I got that on the radios I tested.
For smaller applications requiring 10-30 SUs, I don't think you can go wrong with the Pico at it's economical cost. |
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bcbuie
join:2005-07-20
| Excuse my ignorance, but what do you mean when you say "20db 20x20 models"?
Have you ever used the TA-3404-16-60 model, it is a 19.75db 60 degree sector but only had a 3.5 elevation beamdwidth - was thinking of using that to overcome the 15db power output limit on the pico basestation (still so weird to me that the basestation has a power limit of 15db but the SU's can output 20db). With a degree or so of downtilt seems like it would work fine for us on paper, but I've never used a sector with such a tiny elevation beamwidth.
So you get roughly 10Mbps aggregate usable TCP throughput per sector at 3.5Mhz right? You are just saying that it limits you to 3Mbps down / 1Mbps up as the maximum service flow per SU?
When you say 40ms over 4 hops, is that 4 wireless hops? What are typical ping times from the SU to the pico?
Thanks again,
Ben |
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JakeMoch
join:2009-11-04
Penticton, BC
| Oh sorry ... I was speaking of something like the TA-3408 panels with the rating:
3400-3700 MHz
18 +/- 0.5 dBi
1.5 :1 max.
25 dB min.
Vertical or Horizontal
25 Watts
20° +/- 2°
20° +/- 2°
22 dB min.
50 ohms nominal
N female
Our engineer tried to explain the variance in the rating to the actual output to me but it kinda went over my head. I've also always wondered why the 15 db SUs get 20+ output in the information GUI but throughput tests kinda confirm. I am unaware of any internal amping going on in the units. In a nutshell the TA-3408 with it's 20x20degree H and V is almost always plenty for the 20db output max of the Pico basestation if only a 20-30 degree sector is needed 3 - 17 kilometers away.( Believe it or not, I've experienced 90 degree coverage at 7 kilometers with the 20x20 degree antennas with serviceable signals to the entire 90 degrees on the SU side. We mostly use the TA-3408-08-60 because of the mountainous terrains and the increased downtilt gives us more coverage on the vertical plane.
I had asked about the higher gain antenna but our engineers all agreed that it would be overkill for the application. Even our Alvarian ODUs are mostly equiped with the 3408-8-60 and we often will split the ODUs to two antenna because of the 30db output allowing more gain than needed. My splits of the 20db Pico Basestation using two TA-3408s have been very successful for 7-10 kilometer coverage and customers are spread out 120 degrees on the other side and none fall above a -80 RSSI.
The default service classes in the Pico controller have an unlimited service class of 0-3000K down and 0-1000 up ... I haven't tested beyond the unlimited settings but throughput averages 3MB down with bursts to 3.8 ... our tests showed up to 2.4 up though on unlimited but when we throttle it gives very close to what we provision in the service class.
The hops vary but I was thinking of one that is fed by a fiber core - to axcellera link - to an Alvarian feed - to a Pico Basestation and we can get 30-40 ms pings to the SUs associated to the PicoBS. This can be tweaked of course at the controller to optimize throughput under load. |
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tranzeo
join:2009-10-26
| reply to bcbuie
One thing to keep in mind is the WiMAX is Power Controlled protocol. The SU and BS communicate at the power levels they need, not full power all the time. This means that if you put up a high powered BS, and you are only going say 10 KM, the radio will never use that full power.
We have some intros to WiMAX webinars on the Tranzeo.com site (Events --> Webinars) that try to explain how WiMAX and WiFi differ and how they are the same in many ways. EION wireless also has published an excellent book, WiMAX EXPLAINED System Fundamentals (ISBN 193281354-3) that is both informative and actually readable. You can get it on Amazon. |
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bcbuie
join:2005-07-20
| reply to JakeMoch
Thanks for all the info.
I ordered a starter kit today, will be testing in a couple of weeks.
Also ordered a 20db SU, a 120 degree sector, and an indoor unit (just for kicks). Might try to find the 60 degree sector (our distributor didn't carry) as well to test with.
Will post results here.
Ben |
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bcbuie
join:2005-07-20 | reply to bcbuie
Well, the Tranzeo gear was backordered, so we are gonna try the Vecima instead.
Will let you know the results, testing this weekend.
Ben |
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DoubleRadius
join:2002-06-20
Indian Trail, NC
| reply to bcbuie
Because the Tranzeo 3.65Ghz CPEs are interoperable with Vecima's base station, we are seeing a lot of people deploying the Tranzeo 3.65Ghz Start Kit to get over the learning curve at a lower cost of risk, and then deploying the Vecima base station in place of the Tranzeo.
Then they will redeploy the Tranzeo into a new are to get the word out before deploying more Vecima base stations. |
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New365guy
@verizon.net
| reply to bcbuie
I am not sure if you have looked into this solution or if you know if it is available, but Motorola has an new 3.65Ghz solution: »www.motorola.com/Business/US-EN/···es_US-EN
Point-to-Multipoint 320 Wireless Broadband Access Network |
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DoubleRadius
join:2002-06-20
Indian Trail, NC
| The Motorola 320 will be shipping in Q-1 if 2010.
This will turn a few heads. It is based on the 802.16e standard with no plans of mobility.
It is a MIMO solution with 2 transmitters and 2 receivers in the base station. Also there is no server needed because all the management is built into the Base station. |
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JEhmanCTI
join:2008-02-06
| reply to bcbuie
Yes, the Motorola product is going to be very solid. AND BELIEVE THIS!!! IT DOES EXIST : )
I was the first person in the test lab a couple weeks back and saw the equipment up and running. Different form then the current SMs but very slick indeed. Final specs and pricing are being worked out but plan on shipping sometime first half of 2010. |
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bcbuie
join:2005-07-20 | reply to DoubleRadius
Any idea what the ballpark cost per BS and the cost per SU is going to be with the Moto 320 (single unit quantities)? |
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DoubleRadius
join:2002-06-20
Indian Trail, NC
| reply to bcbuie
Spec sheet can be found
»www.motorola.com/staticfiles/Bus···aleId=33
Sorry long link.
List prices for the AP's are going to be around $4,495 integrated with a 90 degree antenna.
CPE are around $395 list for bulk packs. (so I have heard) |
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JEhmanCTI
join:2008-02-06 | reply to bcbuie
Pricing is not set in stone yet though. Official part list has not been released. |
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bcbuie
join:2005-07-20 | I will post our Vecima field test results in a new thread. |
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