| reply to Harddrive
Re: Complete Per Byte Billing. said by Harddrive:i want to see a low 'base price' for having the service available. then be charged if i use any on a per-gig basis. make it just like my electric or water bill. the less i use, the less i pay. but we know that will never happen. It won't happen because most users are too lazy to keep an eye on their usage(even if given meters to check it) and would rather overpay for a known set amount each month than pay for exactly what they use. Hence they will get usage tiers instead of straight per-byte billing. Consumers get what they deserve because they would rather pay more for convenience than expend some effort to cut their costs.
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 fireflierCoffee. . .Need CoffeePremium
join:2001-05-25
Limbo | Those lazy users would pay more attention when they get inflated bills just like they do now if the cost of their electric bill becomes too painful. Those formerly too lazy to turn off unneeded lights and appliances will suddenly get off their ass to save a few bucks. The models used with gas, water, and electric would work for broadband but the ISPs don't want that.
The real reason it won't happen is because it would potentially take a chunk out of ISP profits or reduce their massive profit increases from implementing a fair model. ISPs and their ilke will try to spin it any way they can to avoid that realization among the masses.
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Tradition: Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid. --despair.com |
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| If it were pure per-byte billing, then if I unplug my modem for a month, I should see a bill for $0 just like if I were to disconnect my electricity breaker box for a month. But this will never happen because ISPs know that the cost is in providing the connection, not in the amount of data that flows over it.
Another issue is that people don't think about how much electricity they've already used this month when deciding to toast some bread, because the incremental cost of usage is insignificant. The mere fact that users would have to watch a meter means that the overage charges are just complete punitive money grab. The incremental per-byte charge is NOT based on any actual cost. |
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 SLDPremium
join:2002-04-17
San Francisco, CA
1 edit | reply to fireflier
Exactly! That is why telecom came off the per-minute billing into a fixed monthly. Better to get people to overpay for usage as if it is free than to let them lower their usage to get the cost down.
Thus, the $3/minute average fee for cell phone use. People don't realize they're being ripped off under these pricing models. Of course, heavy users do better, but the average consumer loses. |
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openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:2 | reply to Michael C
said by Michael C:If it were pure per-byte billing, then if I unplug my modem for a month, I should see a bill for $0 just like if I were to disconnect my electricity breaker box for a month. Unless you cancel your service, there are still service fees and connection charges. |
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 RARPSL
join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY | said by openbox9:said by Michael C:If it were pure per-byte billing, then if I unplug my modem for a month, I should see a bill for $0 just like if I were to disconnect my electricity breaker box for a month. Unless you cancel your service, there are still service fees and connection charges. Which by the published prices for bundles is about $5/month (The 'discount' you get for having two services not one). Note: I am talking about bundles where you pay full price for the services not those where you get a lower price for 6-12 months before going to full price. |
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openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:2 | Huh? Discounts aren't the service fees and connections charges sufficient to keep your service turned on. |
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RARPSL
join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY | said by openbox9:Huh? Discounts aren't the service fees and connections charges sufficient to keep your service turned on. If I Pay $X for Cable, $Y for Internet, and get a $5 discount from $X+$Y if I have both, I fail to see why I should not regard the $5 as their stated cost for providing me with connectivity and as the bookkeeping cost of my account. Under classic accounting methods it is the incremental cost for the 2nd service. Looking it another way $5 is the FIXED cost of providing the service with $X-5 and $Y-5 as the cost Cable/Internet service (IOW: You only get hit with the $5 Account Maintenance and Connectivity Charge once no matter how many services you have).
If as you claim "Discounts aren't the service fees and connections charges sufficient to keep your service turned on" why am I being double billed for having more than one service by not getting the full reduction since there is no extra cost for supporting the second service (the connection is already there and paid for with the first service and the second gets a free ride)? |
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 nixenRockin' the BoxenPremium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA | reply to fAcEtIOUs
said by fAcEtIOUs:It won't happen because most users are too lazy to keep an eye on their usage(even if given meters to check it) and would rather overpay for a known set amount each month than pay for exactly what they use. Hence they will get usage tiers instead of straight per-byte billing. Consumers get what they deserve because they would rather pay more for convenience than expend some effort to cut their costs. I'm on "budget" billing with my various utilities. This means the bills are averaged over a 12mo. cycle. Even with this in place (to prevent shocks), I still keep track of the monthly usages. Most of the people I know, whether on budget billing or per therm/kWh/etc. billing also try to keep track of their billing bases.
If the ISPs want to go to per-byte billing models (thus taking a "utility" approach), they should have to provide similar billing models and meter viewability. Then again, "utilities" are, essentially, "dumb pipe" providers. If ISPs want to become "utilities", they should also have to remove themselves from content businesses.
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The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell |
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fireflierCoffee. . .Need CoffeePremium
join:2001-05-25
Limbo | reply to RARPSL
That's a pretty good example RARPSL.
For the dumbass ISP CEOs out there, to simplify:
It costs X to run cable to someone's house and keep it functional (like the gas and electric companies currently do). There's your "base" cost. You want per-byte billing, add it to X while recognizing X is NOT equal to whatever bullshit base you think your service is worth (which is something stupid like X+$30) because it benefits your salary and your shareholders.
I don't see that happening unfortunately.
ISPs are ready to start at X+Y (where Y=whatever ISPs think they can screw you out of)
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Tradition: Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid. --despair.com |
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 KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
 ·AT&T DSL Service
| reply to fAcEtIOUs
That's disingenuous IMHO. Usage based tiers is what will be adopted because it is more profitable, not because of anything users do.
Sure, they want people who go over the caps to pay more, but they also want to make sure Grandma with her light emailing doesn't pay less, either. It's all about creating more profit, not giving users what they want.
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"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:2 | reply to RARPSL
What's the initial $W cost before you start throwing in $X and $Y services? I have no desire to pay for TV, so what's the base cost to string and maintain coax to my residence and the support mechanism that goes along with it for me to receive HSI? My guess is that it's more than $5/mth. |
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 HarddriveProud American and Infidel since 1968.Premium
join:2000-09-20
Phone Room
kudos:2 | per Verizon, when they were replacing their copper plant with fiber, it costs the company $90'ish a year to keep a copper drop going to a residence.
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I've come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass and i'm all outta bubblegum. |
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openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:2 | Is that purely maintenance of the loop or does that include the requisite customer service that goes along with establishing a service? |
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HarddriveProud American and Infidel since 1968.Premium
join:2000-09-20
Phone Room
kudos:2 | 'everything' involved in maintenance of the line. |
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openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:2 | Ok, so base price of actually providing a VZ service to a residence is somewhere north of $8/mth...without factoring in VZ's profit. |
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RARPSL
join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY | reply to openbox9
said by openbox9:What's the initial $W cost before you start throwing in $X and $Y services? I have no desire to pay for TV, so what's the base cost to string and maintain coax to my residence and the support mechanism that goes along with it for me to receive HSI? My guess is that it's more than $5/mth. Here are some theoretical figures:
TV $50
Internet $45
TV + Internet $90 (ie: A $5 discount for having both)
Based on these figures:
$W is $5 (cost of the connection plus account maintenance). This is the charge for the ABILITY to get the services.
TV provisioning $45 ($X) - This includes the cost of the ability to SUPPLY the TV feed and the feed itself but not cost of the connection (which is paid as $W).
Internet provisioning and bandwidth ($Y) is $40. Again, this is the cost to USE the Internet Connection that was supplied by the $W charge.
This means that each single service charge includes not only the service but the connection to provide and bill for the service (ie: $W). Once you have ONE Service each additional service only needs the incremental charge (ie: The single service charge minus the $W provisioning charge). Any claim that the provisioning and accounting cost is more than $5 ($W) means that the company is double-dipping/double-charging for the connection since the "You Already have paid for the connection" discount is only $5. |
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