  nixen Rockin' the Boxen Premium join:2002-10-04 Alexandria, VA
·Cox HSI
·Speakeasy
| reply to Nightfall Re: Onyone else on call 24/7 365?
said by Nightfall :Paying for a break glass in case of emergency person to always be on staff is not worth it. Paying for educated and experienced IT people who are diverse in their experience as well as good with customer service pays for itself over time. It's more a term for someone that's REALLY good at whatever it is you have a business-critical need for. -- The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell |
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  nixen Rockin' the Boxen Premium join:2002-10-04 Alexandria, VA
·Cox HSI
·Speakeasy
| reply to NetAdmin said by NetAdmin :Getting the bill for having a group of SMEs coming into the enterprise to diagnose and clean up the issues are sometimes a powerful enough motivator to fix that. Yeah, generally used in an "operations" context, but SMEs come in all over the place. Plenty of customers that have staff architects (etc.) that really aren't up to the task of designing a big project, etc.
said by NetAdmin :If the bean counters are afraid of paying salaries, they need to be made aware of the costs of bringing in consultants for those critical down situations. Given typical technology roll-out cycles, frequency of major operational anomalies, etc., it's frequently not worth trying to keep such people on staff. And, even if you try to, they'll often get bored and bolt for the next "interesting opportunity." -- The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell |
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  Nightfall My Goal Is To Deny Yours Premium,MVM join:2001-08-03 Grand Rapids, MI
·Site5.com
·AT&T Midwest
·Comcast
| reply to nixen said by nixen :said by Nightfall :Paying for a break glass in case of emergency person to always be on staff is not worth it. Paying for educated and experienced IT people who are diverse in their experience as well as good with customer service pays for itself over time. It's more a term for someone that's REALLY good at whatever it is you have a business-critical need for. True, and these people are hired in by successful companies not only for the insurance policy but for the expertise they provide. For instance, we have 20 databases running SQL server. Instead of contracting that work out, we hired a SQL expert for 100k a year. This guy keeps our databases running in tip top shape. The result is a 99.9% uptime during work hours.
Most IT departments would usually hire someone like our SQL expert for a break and fix situation. Now, its all about having an expert in house to not only streamline things, but improve the process internally to databases and how we get data.
Just one example on the value add to an organization. The company just needs the right management to show them this value as well as have the dedication to bring these people on board. -- My domain - Nightfall.net |
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  Nightfall My Goal Is To Deny Yours Premium,MVM join:2001-08-03 Grand Rapids, MI
·Site5.com
·AT&T Midwest
·Comcast
| reply to nixen said by nixen :said by NetAdmin :Getting the bill for having a group of SMEs coming into the enterprise to diagnose and clean up the issues are sometimes a powerful enough motivator to fix that. Yeah, generally used in an "operations" context, but SMEs come in all over the place. Plenty of customers that have staff architects (etc.) that really aren't up to the task of designing a big project, etc. said by NetAdmin :If the bean counters are afraid of paying salaries, they need to be made aware of the costs of bringing in consultants for those critical down situations. Given typical technology roll-out cycles, frequency of major operational anomalies, etc., it's frequently not worth trying to keep such people on staff. And, even if you try to, they'll often get bored and bolt for the next "interesting opportunity." Depends on the people involved. I know many VMWare experts who are fully certified working at one organization with less than 100 virtual servers. There is no excitement there, no crashing, and no downtime. These people are there to help shape the organization as well as provide support for a key piece of infrastructure.
You seem to think that the real experts are in consulting and should only be in consulting. That may have been the case in the past, but its changing. Companies are now seeing the benefits of paying experts to be on staff to help make recommendations and streamline what they are good at.
The companies that choose not to do that will be the ones to suffer, and will be calling companies such as yours to help support them and fix their problems. Trust me, I know many companies who subscribe to this line of thinking. -- My domain - Nightfall.net |
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  nixen Rockin' the Boxen Premium join:2002-10-04 Alexandria, VA
·Cox HSI
·Speakeasy
| said by Nightfall :Depends on the people involved. I know many VMWare experts who are fully certified working at one organization with less than 100 virtual servers. There is no excitement there, no crashing, and no downtime. These people are there to help shape the organization as well as provide support for a key piece of infrastructure. You seem to think that the real experts are in consulting and should only be in consulting. Actually, no. It's simply that most organizations don't want to pay to keep SMEs on staff. Most would rather do things on a pay-as-needed basis given the typical utilization levels vs. cost of maintaining SMEs.
said by Nightfall :That may have been the case in the past, but its changing. Companies are now seeing the benefits of paying experts to be on staff to help make recommendations and streamline what they are good at. They're seeing it now mostly because the labor market is depressed. If/when things return to anything approaching previous levels, the bean counters will swing things back the other way.
said by Nightfall :The companies that choose not to do that will be the ones to suffer, and will be calling companies such as yours to help support them and fix their problems. Actually, I recently left that business. Got tired of the irregularity of scheduling and not being home very often. Made personal life rather impossible.
said by Nightfall :Trust me, I know many companies who subscribe to this line of thinking. And even of those that don't subscribe to it, I think it's more a matter of the depressed labor costs that's enabling/driving it rather than some kind of "long term" realization of the worth.
Depressed labor markets also tend to suppress the tendency to look for things that are simply "more interesting". So, it's not as hard for companies to keep SMEs on staff.
Again, should be interesting to see how things play out when the labor market recovers. -- The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell |
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  nixen Rockin' the Boxen Premium join:2002-10-04 Alexandria, VA
·Cox HSI
·Speakeasy
| reply to Nightfall said by Nightfall :True, and these people are hired in by successful companies not only for the insurance policy but for the expertise they provide. For instance, we have 20 databases running SQL server. Instead of contracting that work out, we hired a SQL expert for 100k a year. This guy keeps our databases running in tip top shape. The result is a 99.9% uptime during work hours. See my reply regarding depressed labor markets. $100K would have been peanuts a few years ago for less expertise - and enterprise criticality - than that. -- The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell |
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  Nightfall My Goal Is To Deny Yours Premium,MVM join:2001-08-03 Grand Rapids, MI
·Site5.com
·AT&T Midwest
·Comcast
| reply to nixen quote: Actually, I recently left that business. Got tired of the irregularity of scheduling and not being home very often. Made personal life rather impossible.
Same reason why I left consulting. The hours just sucked. 
Great talking with you on this stuff. Sounds like we are both agree along the same lines on this issue. I guess we will have to see what happens in the next 10-20 years to see what will happen to the IT industry.  -- My domain - Nightfall.net |
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  NetAdmin CCNA
join:2008-05-22
| reply to nixen said by nixen :said by NetAdmin :If the bean counters are afraid of paying salaries, they need to be made aware of the costs of bringing in consultants for those critical down situations. Given typical technology roll-out cycles, frequency of major operational anomalies, etc., it's frequently not worth trying to keep such people on staff. And, even if you try to, they'll often get bored and bolt for the next "interesting opportunity." You don't need to keep an "expert" in-house, but someone who has enough knowledge on the topic to recognize potential issues before they become major issues and have the capacity to deal with a vendor. Calling in outside consultants and vendors, who may have to work around the clock and on weekends, to bring you back up can be quite costly.
For example, you don't need to have a CCIE in-house if you have a Cisco network when a CCNA is really all you need, but if you don't have anyone in-house that knows Cisco and your network goes down, you are going to pay a premium for assistance with that outage, especially if it is on a weekend and requires around the clock work to fix. -- Kilroy was here |
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  heels_fan 1.20.09 The start of Socialism Premium join:2003-02-07 Columbia, TN
| reply to tankabbot5 365 24/7 for the last 4 years.
I even have to carry my laptop with me on vacation. While planning my vacations, I have to find out if and where the nearest internet connection will be. -- everyone is born ignorant. some are born stupid, others achieve stupidity and the rest have stupidity thrust upon them. |
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  Matt Take me down to the paradise city Premium join:2003-07-20 Jamestown, NC
·North State Commun..
| said by heels_fan :365 24/7 for the last 4 years. I even have to carry my laptop with me on vacation. While planning my vacations, I have to find out if and where the nearest internet connection will be. You need to have your employer spring for an EVDO modem if you can't be away from your internet connection ... ever. |
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  Simba7
join:2003-03-24 Billings, MT | ..or teather a Windows Mobile, Blackberry, or iPhone to your laptop.. |
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  Matt Take me down to the paradise city Premium join:2003-07-20 Jamestown, NC
·North State Commun..
| said by Simba7 :..or teather a Windows Mobile, Blackberry, or iPhone to your laptop.. I prefer to have a dedicated device. I frequently need to talk on the phone while on the internet, which is hard to do when the device is tethered and in the case of everyone but AT&T, impossible. |
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  drew Reformation Premium join:2002-07-10 Port Orchard, WA clubs: | This.
I've always liked Sprint for a device. Their network seems solid, at least on the west coast. |
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  sporkme drop the crantini and move it, sister Premium,MVM join:2000-07-01 Morristown, NJ
·Optimum Online
| reply to Loco said by Loco :I'm an Automation Engineer for a power plant here in Southern California. Please tell us it's not a nuke plant. -- with every mistake we must surely be learning |
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 cmaenginsb Premium,MVM join:2001-03-19 Palmdale, CA
| reply to nixen said by nixen :said by Nightfall :said by nixen :Or you aren't supporting customers that INSIST on using broken technology (*cough* SunCluster *cough*). Or insist on using unsupported storage and ignoring when they're told it's heading for a massive failure (nothing like, four months later, watching a million-dollar/day site go down for three days because they ignored you). Or having customers with root access on their hosted systems. Thats what being well funded and having the skills is all about. If you have those two things, you should not be supporting broken technology or insist on using unsupported storage. If you have the skills, you should not have customers with root access on their hosted systems either. Thanks for paying attention and your helpful input. However: •when one is in the SERVICES industry, you really don't have a freaking choice in the matter. •When one works in services corporations where the sales team dictates what customers can put in your data centers and get support on, you really don't have a freaking choice in the matter. •When one works in services corporations where "technically correct" is ignored in favor of the next sale, you don't really have a freaking choice in the matter
You can have all the freaking skills in the world. You can work in a rather well-funded corporation with global operations and Fortune 50 customers. However, when you're supporting OUTSIDE, paying customers, none of that makes a goddamned difference. Try it sometime. It's BOATLOADS of fun. said by Nightfall :Having the skills is one thing, but finding the right company is another. Many organizations out there see IT as a money sink. Well, there's "IT" and then there's computer services (consulting, hosting, etc.) Services are a RADICALLY different animal than "IT". Very few people that see themselves as competent in the nice, safe coccoon of the "IT" world could either cut it (both be able to survive or be truly useful) in the services or high-end consulting world. Now, if you weren't trying to be as pompous as what your post came across as, I'll pre-apologize for what felt like an appropriate tone with my response. I hear that! When I worked for an ISP we had a customer that got an entire class-C blocked by our upstream for port scanning. When the customer refused to provide a reasonable answer as to what they were doing we continued to keep them offline, despite pressure from the sales team. The customer quit. 2 months after all of the technical team left in disgust the customer was turned back on. Guess what happened! -- CCNA, Comtrain Certified Tower Climber |
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 cmaenginsb Premium,MVM join:2001-03-19 Palmdale, CA
| reply to drew said by drew :This. I've always liked Sprint for a device. Their network seems solid, at least on the west coast. Not sure about WA but Vz EVDO coverage is excellent down here in California, I travel essentially all over from the border to the SF bay. -- CCNA, Comtrain Certified Tower Climber |
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  drew Reformation Premium join:2002-07-10 Port Orchard, WA clubs:
·wavebroadband
| IIUC, aren't Vz and Sprint both CDMA utilizing companies?
Sprint isn't awesome so much for their network, but that they don't charge for roaming data unless it's something over 30-50% (I think) of the entire data usage, and then they just think about terminating the contract. -- Come play Mafia! | My Picture Blog |
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 cmaenginsb Premium,MVM join:2001-03-19 Palmdale, CA
| said by drew :IIUC, aren't Vz and Sprint both CDMA utilizing companies? Sprint isn't awesome so much for their network, but that they don't charge for roaming data unless it's something over 30-50% (I think) of the entire data usage, and then they just think about terminating the contract. Yeah, Vz and Sprint are CDMA (with EVDO for data) ATT and T Mobile are GSM with HSPDA (and not much in the case of T Mobile). -- CCNA, Comtrain Certified Tower Climber |
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  NetworkAdmin
@rr.com
| reply to tankabbot5 said by tankabbot5 :
I work for siemens IT solutions and my job requires me to be on call 24/7 365 minus PTO time. I have been doing this for a little over 3 years now. I never get a weekend off at all. Well, unless I take PTO time off. Anyway just wondering if anyone else is on call all year long too. I don't know anyone who is on call all year 24/7 like I am minus PTO or vacation time. I work as a Network Administrator a non-profit organization. My normal hours are 9:00-4:30 Monday through Friday. If I'm there during the week anytime after that or before that, generally something is wrong. As for weekends...well I've had my share of 9:00 AM phone calls on a Saturday that I'd prefer to sleep in. However, you have to do what you have to do. I don't mind the job at all. Anytime I've ever gone beyond what was expected I have seemed to be compensated well. I managed to even get a raise after only three months of working there. Nothing huge but it was nice. I do get benefits such as comp time, vacation, personal time, sick time and bereavement. I'm in the process of using up some comp that I accrued from a overnight stay re-doing a domain controller, re-joining PC's to the domain and re-creating user accounts. I sure I hope I don't have to do that again.  |
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 merfyman
join:2009-10-28
| reply to tankabbot5 Technically I am on call 24/7/365, but that simply never has been an issue. We have a 24/7 call center to handle those thing that occur after hours who have the ability to remote in and handle stuff. There is only one server I am responsible for that MUST always be up but the system support line will take calls after hours and elevate to me if necessary. Which has yet to occur (cross fingers)
Such are the joys of working for a massive corporation! |
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