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retired17
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join:2007-01-24
Anaheim, CA
catalytic convertor causing fires

Today in S. California, there were numerous spot fires caused by a failed catalytic convertor. Do these convertors spill their guts when they fail? Or do they actually have to first strike an object on the roadway then spill their guts?


Vamp
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Were they actually saying the cat material broke up and blew out into the brush and caught fires?
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retired17
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join:2007-01-24
Anaheim, CA
Our local news station KNX reported that a malfunctioning catalytic convertor can spit out hot metal shavings. It's what probably caused all the fires.


TheHarvester
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Dana Point, CA

reply to retired17
Converters don't start working until they are about 600 degrees. A poor running car can cause a converter to get in excess of 1500 degrees and cause the substrate to melt down. Generally the forward part will melt first causing a restriction and severe loss of power. However there are times it can spit heated melted material out the tail pipe and at 1500 degrees plus, it would be hot enough to cause fires if spit into some dry brush.
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Doctor Olds
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1 edit
reply to retired17
Re: catalytic converter causing fires

If a engine is running too rich or too long at idle or at a fast idle the converter can overheat and if driven over a grass field that will start the dry grass on fire from touching the body of the converter. If a plug is misfiring, the converter can even glow cherry red from the excess fuel it is burning.

703 F2d 137 Dalton v. Toyota Motor Sales Inc
»openjurist.org/703/f2d/137
quote:
The catalytic converter is an emission control device installed in the exhaust system. It is installed only on Corolla's sold in the U.S.A.

The catalytic converter looks somewhat like a muffler, but it performs an important job in maintaining cleaner air.If a large amount of unburned gasoline flows into the converter, it may overheat and create a fire hazard. To prevent this, observe the following precautions:

Do not drive with an extremely low fuel level. This may cause engine misfire which creates an extra load for the converter.

Do not allow the engine to run at fast idle speed for more than ten minutes or at normal idle speed for more than twenty minutes.

Do not park the car over dry grass or over anything that might burn easily.

Do not turn off the ignition while the car is moving.

Toyota Owner's Manual, Section 1, page 1.
Now dirt bikes and off road vehicles can cause fires if someone has removed the spark arrestor from the exhaust system.
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Doctor Olds
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1 edit
reply to retired17
said by retired17 See Profile :

Our local news station KNX reported that a malfunctioning catalytic converter can spit out hot metal shavings. It's what probably caused all the fires.
That doesn't sound even remotely plausible. Reporter busted for spreading false info. To spit out anything, the ceramic matrix or ceramic balls (depending on design) would have to be blown out through the multiple baffles in the standard automotive muffler to escape the exhaust system. That takes high RPMs to get that done and normally the larger pieces actually plug up the muffler causing extreme back pressure that requires replacing the exhaust system including the bad catalytic converter.

There are no metal shavings in the catalytic converter or muffler.


Catalytic Converter

Muffler baffles


»autorepair.about.com/od/glossary···ti_3.htm
quote:
Once your catalytic converter reaches its operating temperature (known as "light off temperature" and usually between 400 and 600 degrees Fahrenheit) the catalyst compound coating the inner ceramics start to convert the three regulated harmful emissions into less harmful emissions. The three harmful emissions regulated by the EPA are Carbon monoxide (CO), Hydrocarbons (or VOCs for Volatile Organic Compounds), and Nitrogen compounds (NOx).

Ceramic matrix inside converter


HTH
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3SGTE
ST215W
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there
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reply to Doctor Olds
Wow, a lawsuit for a 1978 Corolla.
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jrs8084
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Statesville, NC
a guy. . driving home from a Christmas party. . .gets too sleepy to drive, so he pulls over to nap and smoke a cigarette (with the engine idling) Hmmm. . .


Doctor Olds
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He pulls over to the left into the grassy medium, not to the right where normally there is the paved emergency lane.


rawwhide
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3 edits
I was once pulled over while on my bike. I pulled to the left and into the median. The officer had no choice but to do the same. Needless to say after about 4 minutes of us engaging in conversation I noticed smoke coming from below his car. He handed back all my info and warned me to slow down. Before he could get back to his vehicle it had flames coming out from underneath the car. I drove off asap and left the poor guy while i still had the chance. It had to have been the catalytic converter. This was back in the late 80's.
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Doctor Olds
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1 edit
reply to retired17
said by retired17 See Profile :

Today in S. California, there were numerous spot fires caused by a failed catalytic converter. Do these converters spill their guts when they fail? Or do they actually have to first strike an object on the roadway then spill their guts?
This must be the story you are asking about.

Catalytic Converter May Have Caused Fire Near Diamond Bar
»www.knx1070.com/Catalytic-Conver···/5588979
quote:
DIAMOND BAR, Calif. (AP) - Los Angeles County fire officials say a malfunctioning catalytic converter on a vehicle is believed to have caused brush fires that threatened homes in the city of Diamond Bar.

Inspector Frederic Stowers says a malfunctioning catalytic converter can spit out hot metal shavings which would account for the multiple ignition points of the blaze late Tuesday morning.

Stowers says the 50-acre blaze is 60 percent contained but there's very little fire activity and firefighters are in the mop-up process.
The reporter and the investigator that he quoted need educating on how catalytic converters actually work.

Understanding Fire Hazards with Catalyst-Equipped Cars
»www.tceq.state.tx.us/implementat···ire.html
quote:
How Catalytic Converters Get Hot

Catalysts reduce emissions by accelerating the combustion of pollutants leaving the engine. In doing this job, they get hot. The outside metal temperatures of some types of converters may approach 800 to 1000 F under conditions of extremely high engine loading.
However, measurements by the United States Forest Service have shown surface temperatures equally as high in the exhaust systems of pre-1975 cars at extreme engine load conditions. Therefore, with this discovery, catalytic converter surface temperatures do not represent a new type of problem for automobile manufacturers and users as long as the engine is running properly.

However, if there is a partial ignition system failure, such as one or more misfiring spark plug or defective ignition wires, the temperatures of the catalytic converter surfaces and the exhaust system downstream from the converter may reach 1200 to 1400 F. This is because of the abnormal amount of unburned fuel delivered by the nonfiring cylinders. Further, once hot, the converter will take longer to cool off than other parts of the exhaust system because of its greater mass. This points out the need for careful attention to vehicle maintenance and alertness by vehicle owners to any signs of abnormal engine operation.

...

It should be noted that vegetation fires caused by hot automobile exhaust systems occurred before the advent of catalyst-equipped cars, and will occur in the future. The Forest Service has periodically conducted tests of cars for fire hazards since 1967 because of the long-standing concern by that agency over vehicle-induced fires in national forest recreational areas.

...

Never park a catalyst-equipped car, or any car, on a pile of dry leaves or other dry vegetation. Normal caution in how you use your car is all that is needed to avoid catalyst fires.
Catalytic Converters insides are mostly ceramic substrate (aka the guts are ceramic) that cools very fast when exposed to the open air. The ceramic has a super thin coating of rare elements (platinum, rhodium and paladium) that make it work. When overheated from excess unburned hydrocarbons (gas or oil) they melt and crack, but there are no metal shavings that are present in the design to be blown out even if someone purposely tried to do so.


Monolithic design is a ceramic honeycomb style converter. This is the most popular design in use.


Discount Catalytic Converter FAQ
»www.discountconverter.com/cataly···ndex.cfm
quote:
Q What is A Substrate?

A It is the material inside the shell of the converter. There are two types of original equipment substrates: Pelletized, which consists of thousands of BB-sized ceramic pellets and Monolithic, which is a ceramic "honeycomb" style. The replacement converters listed in this catalog have monolithic substrates.

Q What is A Catalyst?

A It is a thin coating of precious metals (rhodium, platinum and paladium) applied to the surface of the substrate material. Its function is to assist in the chemical reactions that are required to lower the emission levels.

Q What Makes A Converter Become Red Hot?

A A Converter will get red hot when raw fuel is introduced directly into it. This is not the problem of the converter itself, but the result of a problem with the fuel system or ignition that allows unburned fuel to pass through the engine to the converter. Possible causes are improper ignition timing, fouled spark plugs, and air pump failure.

Q What Causes A Converter To Become Clogged?

A If a converter is operated too long at a high temperature, its substrate may "melt down" and turn into a solid mass inside the converter. The vehicle may seem sluggish, as if there were a loss of power. Again, an engine and/or fuel system malfunction is allowing a rich fuel mixture to reach the converter. If the problem is not diagnosed and corrected, future converter failures may occur.
HowStuffWorks "How Catalytic Converters Work"
»auto.howstuffworks.com/catalytic···rter.htm

How Does A Catalytic Converter Work - Understanding Catalytic Converters
»autorepair.about.com/od/glossary···lyti.htm
--
What’s the point of owning a supercar if you can’t scare yourself stupid from time to time?

retired17
Premium
join:2007-01-24
Anaheim, CA
I don't know if this means anything but they did find the truck that caused the fires and when they looked underneath, the catalytic converter was missing. Apparently it came apart and spilt its guts all along the freeway.


Its a Secret
Whatever
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U B Funny
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So... the person was running an open exhaust, and didn't notice? *cough*BS *cough

I once blew a muffler going up a steep grade. I almost crapped my pants, and pulled over immediately. Who wouldn't?
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THUD300
Part Of A Complete Breakfast
Premium
join:2002-06-07
Decatur, IL

reply to retired17
Re: catalytic convertor causing fires

On early catalyst cars, they ran extremely hot if the curb idle was too rich...

true story, a 'buddy' of mine in high school was smoking dope in the parking lot in his new '78 Firebird between classes with the engine running... all of a sudden there was a LOT of smoke coming from inside the car, and it wasn't pot... it was the carpet and console smoldering from the overheated cat. Talk about buzzkill....

Oh, and if the cat is spitting metal, I would say whoever in the media said that is smoking something too, LOL.
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TheHarvester
Premium
join:2006-08-25
Dana Point, CA

reply to Doctor Olds
Re: catalytic converter causing fires

said by Doctor Olds See Profile :

said by retired17 See Profile :

Our local news station KNX reported that a malfunctioning catalytic converter can spit out hot metal shavings. It's what probably caused all the fires.
That doesn't sound even remotely plausible. Reporter busted for spreading false info. To spit out anything, the ceramic matrix or ceramic balls (depending on design) would have to be blown out through the multiple baffles in the standard automotive muffler to escape the exhaust system. That takes high RPMs to get that done and normally the larger pieces actually plug up the muffler causing extreme back pressure that requires replacing the exhaust system including the bad catalytic converter.

It is 100% possible and I have seen it first hand.
late model Ford F-150 (about 2001ish) Guy was out offroading and went through some deep muddy water. Water got on top of the engine and got down into the plug holes shorting out multiple cylinders. He decided to drive it to the shop rather than tow it. After I replaced all the plugs, plug boots and blew out the water in the holes I fired up the truck. It ran smooth and when I revved the engine up, one of the other techs noticed something coming out of the exhaust. Every time I revved the engine something got spit out the tail pipe. It looked like (cooled) molten metal fragments.
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moes

@sbcglobal.net

reply to retired17
Re: catalytic convertor causing fires

It is very possible. back when I owned my 96 turbo hatch with cat intact it would indeed blow crap out of the cat if I sat there on the 2 step limiter (or a 2 stage) (youtube would have videos) little bits of metal and fire too. (again youtube) so yeah I can see it causing a fire.


Doctor Olds
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reply to TheHarvester
Re: catalytic converter causing fires

The truck in the news story was running with essentially an open exhaust (like open headers) since the converter was completely gone from the exhaust system according to the latest info in the news reporting. Plus there is nothing inside the exhaust that make or produces metal shavings to come out the exhaust (at worst, small pieces of broken ceramic honeycomb could get blown out at high RPMs, but that cools down the second it hits outside air and there is no more catalyst reactions that are taking place). I'd bet flames were coming out of the down-pipe[s] at ground level where the converter used to be and that is what caused the fire as the converter nor the muffler have any metal shavings they can blow out. The matrix of the converter just melts down and/breaks into chunks of ceramic honeycomb material which usually gets trapped in the converter body or trapped in the muffler due to the design of perforated tubes inside multiple chambers as seen in previously posted images.

Or it wasn't the truck at all, but someone drove the same route with their toggle switch in the wrong position for the flame throwers kit.

Autoloc Flame Thrower
»www.thehoffmangroup.com/autoloc/···ethrower




Now what you saw on the Ford you worked on had to be either melted broken ceramic honeycomb matrix coming out of the damaged converter or just carbon particles from the excess hydrocarbons in the exhaust system from the multiple misfiring plugs that were drenched/covered in water during deep water - off road use.
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Doctor Olds
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reply to TheHarvester
said by TheHarvester See Profile :

It is 100% possible and I have seen it first hand.

Every time I revved the engine something got spit out the tail pipe. It looked like (cooled) molten metal fragments.
Did you try picking any of it up with a magnet? I'll lay 20:1 odds it was ceramic material from the now damaged converter (melted and broken up inside from all the mis-firing) instead of metal. Otherwise where would the metal come from?

Here is a poster with the same "tailpipe sparks" symptom in a Ford.
»www.fordforums.com/f648/sparks-c···e-18195/

Sounds like Ford may need Spark Arrestors for all use, not just off-road use. I wonder if the truck in the article was a Ford also??
--
What’s the point of owning a supercar if you can’t scare yourself stupid from time to time?


StNickless

@tmodns.net

The "active ingredients" in a catalytic convertor are Palladium and Rhodium.
Umm....those just happen to be metals.
The ceramic substrate is just that, a substrate, which in this instance means : "•any stratum or layer lying underneath another".
It is the ceramic that makes up the honeycomb, the precious metals coat said honeycomb and are the first *items* to leave via the exhaust stream.

Wiki quote
quote:
2.The catalyst itself is most often a precious metal. Platinum is the most active catalyst and is widely used. It is not suitable for all applications, however, because of unwanted additional reactions and/or cost. Palladium and rhodium are two other precious metals used. Platinum and rhodium are used as a reduction catalyst, while platinum and palladium are used as an oxidization catalyst. Cerium, iron, manganese and nickel are also used, although each has its own limitations. Nickel is not legal for use in the European Union (due to reaction with carbon monoxide). While copper can be used, its use is illegal in North America due to the formation of dioxin.

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalytic_converter

Please, if you don't know what you're talking (typing) about, don't keep spreading false info.
Thank you.


TheHarvester
Premium
join:2006-08-25
Dana Point, CA

reply to Doctor Olds
In the post of yours I replied to you said it couldn't happen. I just replied stating I have seen it first hand. I have been turning wrenches professionally for going on 25 years and I can very easily tell the difference between carbon and a melted down converter. The pieces I saw coming out of the vehicle was NOT carbon. After removing the converter (for replacement) I was able to pour out a nice little pile of material.

The image you posted of the cutaway of a muffler is just one style. There are many styles that will allow large pieces of debris to flow right through it.






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