Abattoir
join:2008-03-27
Ottawa, ON
 ·TekSavvy Solutions..
 ·Cogeco Cable
·Bell Sympatico
| Here's how seriously the CRTC takes public input...
Judge for yourselves. I just got back my ATI request today, and I have to compliment the staff at CRTC for processing my request efficiently.
The text of my request, as quoted in their cover letter, was as follows:
Memos, reports, emails and other documents pertaining to comments from the public submitted online referencing file # 8740-B54-200904971 (TN242), particularly in relation to their use or utility when formulating decision for Telecom Order CRTC 2009-484, including summaries, directives and opinions. Attached is their response. |
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Abattoir
join:2008-03-27
Ottawa, ON | Spoiler alert: There isn't much worth reading past page #1. |
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Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
·Colbanet
4 edits | reply to Abattoir
The vast majority of the documents turned over to your ATI request were censored; there's almost nothing there.
What is there is an unbiased summing up of the 6000+ complaints they received on the first page, and indications in the rest of the documents that the volume of feedback surprised them.
Here's a transcript of the first page:
said by CRTC :
RELEASE PACKAGE (Guspaz: handwritten note)
P - Podiiic (Guspaz: Handwritten, illegible)
- olt rbf slci (Guspaz: Handwritten, illegible)
DONE - A, B, C, .... V, X, Y, Z
Against
- Not form letters; many are short; most are considered; some include links to articles websites;
- Very strong concern that Bell and cableco are effectively a duopoloy; bell is using market power to squeeze independent ISPs and with the negative effect it will have on the amount of retail IS choice available to consumers
- Bell would be effectively dictating independent rates and marketing; limiting consumer choice
- Numerous former Bell customers dissatisfied with Bell service
- IS market is dominated by telco and cableco
- concern re Canada slipping position internationally regarding internet development; internet in Japan, Australia (a few in particular), Europe, US referred to
- concern re price increases
- UBB will affect all indep ISPs because no advantage in using indep ISP
!
000001 I believe that should be accurate, most of the errors in it are in the original document.
Note: That gap in the bullet list is there in the original, it was likely either censored or a typo.
Note: The handwritten stuff might be "Produce at something" |
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mlerner
Premium
join:2000-11-25
Nepean, ON | reply to Abattoir
So.. they have a summary of comments, probably all reviewed and they still ignore them? Something wrong with this picture? |
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jfmezei
Premium
join:2007-01-03
Beaconsfield, QC
·ELECTRONICBOX
| reply to Abattoir
Is the pdf you posted *ALL* of what they sent you ?
What I had done my request for the throttling decision 2008-108, I had asked for communications/presentations between analysts and the commissioners. What I got were a couple of PDFs which the analysts used when making the summary to the commissioners. It showed which points they discussed and which ones they ignored. And there were a couple of goodies, such as proof the commissioners knew that Comcast was discriminatory. |
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Abattoir
join:2008-03-27
Ottawa, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Cogeco Cable
·Bell Sympatico
| said by jfmezei  :Is the pdf you posted *ALL* of what they sent you ? This PDF is the entirety of everything the CRTC sent me, with the exception of the 1-page cover letter, which I did not include for privacy reasons. There was nothing of significance in the cover letter.
It did seem a little short on substance to me. What I can surmise from this response is that there was no significant analysis or consideration of anything submitted by the public. That's a little hard to prove, however, given that everything of any substance whatsoever was redacted. |
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An_Onymous
join:2009-10-24
Canada | reply to Abattoir
Seem to me that all of these should be part of the "evidence" pile for the case in the appeal court. |
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jfmezei
Premium
join:2007-01-03
Beaconsfield, QC
·ELECTRONICBOX
| reply to Abattoir
Well, there was mention of over 6000 comments "generally" against Bell. So the commissioners would have been made aware of this and in their analysis (which is never revealed under access to information) they would have considered political implications because of public opposition.
While individual comments wouldn't have been presented to the commissioners, the comments, as a whole, would have been discussed.
Also, what was included in your "result" were the presentations made to the commissioners. Thos would have yielded more information on how the analysts take all the submissions and pass it through their "reader's digest" machine to make simple powerpoint presentations to commissioners. This is where you see what arguments were and weren't considered. |
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sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
H0H 0H0 | reply to Abattoir
The redacting made it virtually useless other than the comment that 6500 people replied mostly against. |
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jfmezei
Premium
join:2007-01-03
Beaconsfield, QC
·ELECTRONICBOX
| sbrook, read the text of Abattoir's request. It askes for materials related to public comments.
What he got was the extend of discussions within the CRTC about the public submissions.
My guess is that the people processing the request forgot to look at the powerpoint presentations made by analysts to the commissioners to find the page where the public comments might have been mentioned.
But the specificity of his request did result in the small amount of documents being copied to him. |
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sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
H0H 0H0
·Rogers Hi-Speed
Host:
Rogers
Bell Canada
| It was far from the extent of the discussions because the vast amount of the text of the discussions was redacted. There's a summary at the top (P1) yes, but notice it's the cons, no pros ... probably also redacted.
I've seen tons of documents released under FoI requests in several countries and altogether too many were simply the salutation and complimentary closing or page numbers. Totally inadequate. |
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Abattoir
join:2008-03-27
Ottawa, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Cogeco Cable
·Bell Sympatico
| said by sbrook :There's a summary at the top (P1) yes, but notice it's the cons, no pros ... probably also redacted. No, it wasn't redacted. All redactions were accompanied by a reference to the section of the law under which they were entitled to make the redaction. There are no such notations on that page.
I've gone through hundreds of the public comments, and I can say that the summary is fairly representative of the comments submitted. Only the cons are shown, because there simply weren't any pros. |
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sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
H0H 0H0 | So you've really got to wonder how the hell they made the decision they came to! |
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jfmezei
Premium
join:2007-01-03
Beaconsfield, QC
·ELECTRONICBOX
| Policy Directive from the Reform party (Maxime Bernier) seems to have priority over the Telecom Act these days.
They found a way to twist this so that Bell wins. The R&V request was specific to GAS. CRTC wasn't about to give GAS "thorttle free" service while Sympatico was throttled. |
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Daphne
@teksavvy.com
| reply to Abattoir
Abattoir,
Thank you for your
21(1)(c)
thanks
d
------
Anyways, I suggest you appeal the information that was redacted. State that the public's interest and benefit, in knowing the full and honest opinion the CRTC has of public input outweighs the potential costs/harm.
6600+ comments, on a CRTC issue of all things, where even the CRTC themselves are surprised of the comment-load, should be enough ammunition to start things off. |
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sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
H0H 0H0 | reply to jfmezei
Wouldn't that have been Jim Prentice/Tony Clement ... I think Bernier predates this. |
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jfmezei
Premium
join:2007-01-03
Beaconsfield, QC
·ELECTRONICBOX
1 edit | reply to Daphne
You can't appeal for that info. The Access to Information Act is pretty clear on what can and cannot be released. Much of government would stop working if it felt that all its words would be made public. Consider a cabinet meeting. They talk bluntly and express their opinions only because they know that those words won't be made public.
Yeah, it would be nice to get to the documents that show "analysis" and debate. But we could start by demanding that the CRTC explain its decisions.
Re: Po0licy directive. The policy directive dates back from when Bernier was in charge. |
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Angelo_
The Network Guy
Premium
join:2002-06-18 | my directive is pointing me to a xl french  |
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gargle
@videotron.ca
| reply to sbrook
said by sbrook :Wouldn't that have been Jim Prentice/Tony Clement ... I think Bernier predates this. It started with Bernier. "Hands off approach" and all the BS we heard from Prentice was a regurgitation of Bernier. |
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